Michael Sam does not fit our scheme

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Lawrence Sidbury was signed to play as a situational pass rusher and was injured in the pre-season.

 

He was not brought in as a pass rushing specialist. Especially after racking up a whopping 5 sacks in 4 years in Atlanta. Nice try. Nevertheless, we dumped Freeney and Hughes. All you need to know about our desire for purely pass rushing specialists.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Maybe like 10 times all season. 

 

 

I thought I had read that some GM had said that (Bucs I think?) but I just checked the quote and I was mistaken. It was saying he was a tweener who didn't really have a position. Doesn't have the body type for DE and not fluid enough for OLB. My bad on that.

 

So you agree that Mathis does indeed drop into coverage.

 

I honestly can't see anyone sane projecting him as a tweener. He cannot drop into coverage. I watched Mayock break down a video of him trying to drop into coverage and he really is a poor Man's version of Jerry Hughes.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

I don't doubt Polian would've drafted him and pretended he was going to be an all-world "joker". But unless we're trying to add special team's depth with a 3rd round selection, I don't see him even being on our board.

[Dustin]

So you agree that Mathis does indeed drop into coverage.

 

I honestly can't see anyone sane projecting him as a tweener. He cannot drop into coverage. I watched Mayock break down a video of him trying to drop into coverage and he really is a poor Man's version of Jerry Hughes.

 

Tweener just means his body type is that of inbetween a DE and pass rushing OLB. Not really the archetype for either position.

[Jake stone]

We shouldn't talk about late round prospects?

Didn't see anyone talkin bout Montori Hughes last year

[Dustin]

Didn't see anyone talkin bout Montori Hughes last year

 

People talk about late round prospects here every year. 

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Didn't see anyone talkin bout Montori Hughes last year

 

People talk about late round prospects here every year. 

 

This issue though is a late round player that fits what we do. This Samms dude doesn't fit what we do unless we're intentionally drafting Special Teams talent in rounds 3 or 4. But even then you still try to prioritize guys who can fit your scheme.

[Jake stone]

People talk about late round prospects here every year.

After their picked? ain't no body talk about Montori Hughes before he was drafted, my point is before the draft no one talks about fifth round and lower caliber players which is why Michael San should not be talked about

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Tweener just means his body type is that of inbetween a DE and pass rushing OLB. Not really the archetype for either position.

 

Ehh yes, no. People use "tweener" when addressing skill sets as well. Just sounds to me like "Neither fish nor foul".

[Dustin]

After their picked? ain't no body talk about Montori Hughes before he was drafted, my point is before the draft no one talks about fifth round and lower caliber players which is why Michael San should not be talked about

 

Yes they do. All the time. Just because nobody talked about Montori Hughes before we drafted him doesn't mean that we don't discuss late round options. 

 

As a matter of fact here's a thread started a few days ago about late rounders: 

http://forums.colts.com/topic/26709-possible-mid-to-late-round-draft-prospects/

[Superman]

It's comically stupid that this guys name keeps appearing on this forum. The guy is slow and isn't very good. It's almost as if some fans want him just so they can brag about the Colts picking the 1st openly gay NFL player and if thats the case, some fans really need to re-evaluate why they are fans to begin with. If this guy would have never opened his mouth about being gay, their isn't a single fan or media person that would be talking about him. Enough with this guy already...he's not any good.

 

That's not true. Search the forum, especially the Draft section, and you'll see that his name had come up several times before he came out. And the answer then was pretty much the same as it is now -- he's a late round prospect that doesn't really have an ideal position in the NFL. 

[HarassedOffTheSite]

That's not true. Search the forum, especially the Draft section, and you'll see that his name had come up several times before he came out. And the answer then was pretty much the same as it is now -- he's a late round prospect that doesn't really have an ideal position in the NFL. 

 

His name "coming up" before and the extraordinary attention this guy is getting right now is not the same.

[Jake stone]

Yes they do. All the time. Just because nobody talked about Montori Hughes before we drafted him doesn't mean that we don't discuss late round options.

As a matter of fact here's a thread started a few days ago about late rounders:

http://forums.colts.com/topic/26709-possible-mid-to-late-round-draft-prospects/

Ahh you got me your right, I guess that's what fans do, but you don't see any so called experts talkin bout fifth round or lower just seems completely pointless to me seeing how every fifth round pick or later I've seen the colts make has never been predictable

[Superman]

His name "coming up" before and the extraordinary attention this guy is getting right now is not the same.

 

Extraordinary attention where? From the media? You're absolutely right. They've covered him ad nauseum at the Combine, and it's primarily because of his announcement.

 

On this board, though? I disagree, for the reasons I stated before. People have mentioned Michael Sam here since well before the Senior Bowl.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Extraordinary attention where? From the media? You're absolutely right. They've covered him ad nauseum at the Combine, and it's primarily because of his announcement.

 

On this board, though? I disagree, for the reasons I stated before. People have mentioned Michael Sam here since well before the Senior Bowl.

 

From both.The nonsensical media coverage speaks for itself. As for here, there has never been a 3rd rounder - Free Agent signing prospect that has gotten this much attention on this forum prior to the draft.

 

Everrrrrrrrr. ;)

[Patagonia Chris]

I think anyone that can improve our pass rush has to be considered an option. I don't see how he's not a fit though since I've seen scouts say he's probably better suited as an OLB in a 3-4 scheme as opposed to DE in a 4-3

[HarassedOffTheSite]

I think anyone that can improve our pass rush has to be considered an option. I don't see how he's not a fit though since I've seen scouts say he's probably better suited as an OLB in a 3-4 scheme as opposed to DE in a 4-3

 

I have not seen a single "competent" source say he is better suited as a 3/4 OLB.

 

Not 1.

[Indi Warrior]

I believe Sam has mid round talent, why not? He's shown just about as much as his teammate Ealy, and even ran a faster 40. And it's not like every 3-4 OLB of today coming out of college had terrific pass rush skills as well as corner back - coverage ability. They were all tweaked and coached, so why can't the same happen to Sam?

[Dustin]

I believe Sam has mid round talent, why not? He's shown just about as much as his teammate Ealy, and even ran a faster 40. And it's not like every 3-4 OLB of today coming out of college had terrific pass rush skills as well as corner back - coverage ability. They were all tweaked and coached, so why can't the same happen to Sam?

 

Kony Ealy had an insane 3-cone tho. 

[chad72]

From both.The nonsensical media coverage speaks for itself. As for here, there has never been a 3rd rounder - Free Agent signing prospect that has gotten this much attention on this forum prior to the draft.

 

Everrrrrrrrr. ;)

 

Tim Tebow did, except he got drafted in round 1 where he shouldn't have been . Can't believe McDaniels gave the Ravens a 2, 3 and 4 for Tebow.

[Gavin]

NFL Network all but turned the Combine into the NFL Clowney Combine, I think Clowney is going to be great if he works hard but there was ALOT of other DE's OLB's that I would have loved to hear talked about rather then just Clowney and Sam, NFL Network needs to work on that for next year, dispense attention to players more evenly, I actually muted my tv once cause I got sick of hearing about Clowney and no its clear...and has been clear that Micheal Sam is a pure pass rusher, Special Teams player

[HarassedOffTheSite]

...it's not like every 3-4 OLB of today coming out of college had terrific pass rush skills as well as corner back - coverage ability. They were all tweaked and coached, so why can't the same happen to Sam?

 

Sams has NO coverage ability.

 

Not terrific. Not adequate. Not pedestrian. Not even CFLesque.

 

He cannot turn his hips around....that isn't coaching. That is physiology. He can't even turn them 45 degrees and deal with a quick up & out.

 

And "why not" is something less than an impressive perspective.

[Gavin]

I believe Sam has mid round talent, why not? He's shown just about as much as his teammate Ealy, and even ran a faster 40. And it's not like every 3-4 OLB of today coming out of college had terrific pass rush skills as well as corner back - coverage ability. They were all tweaked and coached, so why can't the same happen to Sam?

Many things can be coached.....Ability to flip your hips in coverage to make an open field tackle? Nope ya either have it or ya dont

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Tim Tebow did, except he got drafted in round 1.

 

So like I said, there has never been a 3rd rounder - Free Agent signing prospect that has gotten this much attention on this forum prior to the draft. ;)

[Superman]

From both.The nonsensical media coverage speaks for itself. As for here, there has never been a 3rd rounder - Free Agent signing prospect that has gotten this much attention on this forum prior to the draft.

 

Everrrrrrrrr. ;)

 

Yeah, I disagree.

 

First of all, there was a thread about him after his news, and then there's this one. And it's being taken over by people complaining about him getting so much coverage, but the initial premise is that he's not a good prospect for our team. That's pretty much been it. He's not getting hype here. Some extra attention, yes, but mostly it's to the effect of what you see in this thread -- he doesn't fit our team, and at best he'd be a reserve pass rusher.

 

Secondly, there have been many late round prospects to get hype around here prior to the draft. I don't know how much time you spend here in the Draft section, but this is usually where they are.

 

I just disagree with the assertion that the people who have brought him up here have some kind of agenda as regards the Colts having a gay player.

[Jason_]

Lawrence Sidbury was signed to play as a situational pass rusher and was injured in the pre-season.

 

Sidbury was pencilled in as the backup to Walden at SamLB when he was brought in.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Yeah, I disagree.

 

First of all, there was a thread about him after his news, and then there's this one. And it's being taken over by people complaining about him getting so much coverage, but the initial premise is that he's not a good prospect for our team. That's pretty much been it. He's not getting hype here. Some extra attention, yes, but mostly it's to the effect of what you see in this thread -- he doesn't fit our team, and at best he'd be a reserve pass rusher.

 

Secondly, there have been many late round prospects to get hype around here prior to the draft. I don't know how much time you spend here in the Draft section, but this is usually where they are.

 

I just disagree with the assertion that the people who have brought him up here have some kind of agenda as regards the Colts having a gay player.

 

There have been more than the two threads you’ve cited. With others having been locked or deleted.

 

Nobody said he was getting “Hype”. I said he was receiving extraordinary attention. You chose to term it as “Extra attention”. Therefore we agree.

 

I'm glad you agree that he does not fit our system.

 

I did not write that other late round prospects have not gotten “hype”…your word…prior to the draft. I said none of them have ever gotten the kind of extraordinary attention that this player has. And I am correct.

 

If you want to disagree with Balzer40’s assertion, or how you choose to characterize it, that is your decision. But in doing so you open the door to legitimate rebuttal. And I am not sure what other conclusions anyone could draw if they agree with you that he does not fit our system and is receiving extra attention. 

[Dustin]

Sidbury was pencilled in as the backup to Walden at SamLB when he was brought in.

 

That doesn't really mean anything. Hughes was listed as a DT and played NT exclusively. Landry was listed as a FS, Bethea a SS, ect....

[Patagonia Chris]

 

I did not write that other late round prospects have not gotten “hype”…your word…prior to the draft. I said none of them have ever gotten the kind of extraordinary attention that this player has. And I am correct.

 

 

Didn't Maurice Clarrett, Christian Peter and Eric Crouch all have a great deal of attention coming out? Every year there a few late round prospects who receive attention for one reason or another. Would Sam be getting this kind of attention if he wasn't openly gay? No. But there are a number of players who receive publicity for reasons other than their ability.

[chad72]

Didn't Maurice Clarrett, Christian Peter and Eric Crouch all have a great deal of attention coming out? Every year there a few late round prospects who receive attention for one reason or another. Would Sam be getting this kind of attention if he wasn't openly gay? No. But there are a number of players who receive publicity for reasons other than their ability.

 

Lets not forget catfish Manti Te'o

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Didn't Maurice Clarrett, Christian Peter and Eric Crouch all have a great deal of attention coming out? Every year there a few late round prospects who receive attention for one reason or another. Would Sam be getting this kind of attention if he wasn't openly gay? No. But there are a number of players who receive publicity for reasons other than their ability.

 

 

Lets not forget catfish Manti Te'o

 

Both of your remarks are outside of the narrow scope of conversation that SuperMan and I am having. Nobody has asserted other players have not received an inordinate amount of attention from the media. We're talking about both the media and the Colts.com forums. And Chad you have again cited a player not taken in the 3rd round or later.

Perhaps you both should go back and read the exchanges between Balzer40, SuperMan and myself before making further comments regarding our remarks. 

[HarassedOffTheSite]

That doesn't really mean anything.

 

The original assertion was that Sidbury was picked up by the Colts has a pure pass rushing LB. He obviously was not. And where he was on the depth chart supports that fact.

[Dustin]

The original assertion was that Sidbury was picked up by the Colts has a pure pass rushing LB. He obviously was not. And where he was on the depth chart supports that fact.

 

ok then I was wrong. 

[HarassedOffTheSite]

ok then I was wrong. 

 

Not wrong. Just wasn't understanding what the argument was. You're right in that many times, a pure listing doesn't mean a lot.

[DarkHorseColts]

I'm probably way off base as usual, but I am hopeful Adongo can provide viable depth at OLB so the Colts don't have to invest more resources in that spot unless they think they can find Mathis' eventual replacement.

[Jason_]

That doesn't really mean anything. Hughes was listed as a DT and played NT exclusively. Landry was listed as a FS, Bethea a SS, ect....

 

Fair enough, however, it was only after Sidbury's injury that the coaches started training Werner in the Sam LB role.  Prior to that they said several times that for his rookie year he would only be learning the Rush LB role to spell Mathis and play in obvious pass rush situations.  It was only after the injury to Sidbury that they began teaching Werner the Sam LB role, because there was no one else to be the backup to Walden.

[Modern]

Maybe the Dolphins will take Sam early to make up for the incognito and martin scandal. Or maybe the Ravens will take him to draw attention away from Rice knocking out his old lady.

I would shy away from Sam because he isnt a huge talent and wouldn't want people speculating if he didnt make the team if it was because he was gay.

Just like Johnathan Martin he is a mediocre talent who would cause more disruption with his presence then his play on the field would be worth.

Persoalnally I dont care if he is gay, consenting adults should do what they like with each other. Its the distraction created by the situation and the players talent level that I would look at and I dont think it makes sense to take him.

If Luck came out as gay then it would be well worth putting up with the media circus, talent dictates everything and Sam just doesnt have enough to make it worthwhile.

[Superman]

There have been more than the two threads you’ve cited. With others having been locked or deleted.

 

Nobody said he was getting “Hype”. I said he was receiving extraordinary attention. You chose to term it as “Extra attention”. Therefore we agree.

 

Semantics, isn't it? Either way, I think we both know what the other is saying.

 

I'm glad you agree that he does not fit our system.

 

He's a 4-3 end, and a modest one at that. Undersized, and without the explosiveness and athleticism to make up for it. His production in college was sporadic, and he played almost exclusively at left end, so he wasn't even going against the best pass blocker most of the time. Doesn't have elite strength, doesn't have great pass rushing moves... He's about Freeney's size, but doesn't have the things that made Freeney special, nor does he have the resume. That's why he was considered a mid to late round prospect. With coaching, he could play the Rush backer spot in our hybrid front, but he's not that good of a pass rush.

So yeah, he doesn't fit our system. His subpar display at the Combine, both in drills and measured workouts, confirms that.

 

I did not write that other late round prospects have not gotten “hype”…your word…prior to the draft. I said none of them have ever gotten the kind of extraordinary attention that this player has. And I am correct.

 

That's fair. I was originally responding to someone else, so I'm not necessarily taking exception with that.

 

If you want to disagree with Balzer40’s assertion, or how you choose to characterize it, that is your decision. But in doing so you open the door to legitimate rebuttal. And I am not sure what other conclusions anyone could draw if they agree with you that he does not fit our system and is receiving extra attention.

 

 

My initial post was in response to Balzer's claim that the reason he keeps coming up on this board is because some Colts fans want their team to pick the first openly gay player. That's what I disagree with, like I said, on the basis that his name was coming up here before his announcement, and the conclusions were mostly the same as they are now. 

 

I can't speak for anyone else here. I just disagree with that claim, and I stated why. Same as I disagreed with Balzer's claim that people only mention Stanford players because of the Luck/Pep connection, as opposed to them being legitimate options for us to add. Just my opinion.

[Defjamz26]

And just to help end the argument, people were also talking about him here because he was compared a lot to Robert Mathis as an under-sized DE/OLB who has proven his worth. It had very little to do with him being gay. Him coming out just got the idea flowing of "Well, since he's being mention so much, where does he fit in at defensively?"

[HarassedOffTheSite]

My initial post was in response to Balzer's claim that the reason he keeps coming up on this board is because some Colts fans want their team to pick the first openly gay player. That's what I disagree with...

 

If he both does not fit our system (your position) and is projected as a mid to late round selection (the consensus from all legitimate talent evaluators), then why is he receiving the extra attention (your position) here?

 

The only explanations I see are either our users are uninformed about our system of defense & this player's skill set OR Balzer40's assertion is correct.