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Michael Sam does not fit our scheme


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If he both does not fit our system (your position) and is projected as a mid to late round selection (the consensus from all legitimate talent evaluators), then why is he receiving the extra attention (your position) here?

 

The only explanations I see are either our users are uninformed about our system of defense & this player's skill set OR Balzer40's assertion is correct.

 

He was the co-defensive player of the year in the SEC, played one of his best games in what likely was the only one most people actually saw (Oklahoma St, in the Cotton Bowl), and seemed to be an elite pass rusher on the surface.  Something the Colts weren't very good at last year, sans Mathis.  Dee Ford had a lot of posts on these boards too.  And he isn't a dissimilar player to Sam.  Oh, and he is a national, perhaps global topic of conversation.  For many reasons.  Today it was about how he failed at the combine. 

 

Sam hurt his stock going to the combine I think.  Had he left his game film to do his talking, he would have been better off.  His combine results I think might make him go undrafted.  He isn't a good fit for the vast majority of teams in my opinion. 

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If he both does not fit our system (your position) and is projected as a mid to late round selection (the consensus from all legitimate talent evaluators), then why is he receiving the extra attention (your position) here?

The only explanations I see are either our users are uninformed about our system of defense & this player's skill set OR Balzer40's assertion is correct.

I think you know very well how uninformed some people are about what the Colts do on defense. And it's not surprising that people would be less than familiar with the skill set of a college prospect.

What has happened as a result of the media attention is that more people know his name, which leads to more discussion about him. That's different, though, from people just wanting the Colts to be the ones to draft him.

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I think you know very well how uninformed some people are about what the Colts do on defense. And it's not surprising that people would be less than familiar with the skill set of a college prospect.

What has happened as a result of the media attention is that more people know his name, which leads to more discussion about him. That's different, though, from people just wanting the Colts to be the ones to draft him.

I can see the Colts drafting him actually, Would I do it? No....He wont ever be able to flip his hips and drop back but I could see Grigson drafting him for his quick first step, I'd say Grigson could trade down to the 4th to get him...But if he did I strongly believe there will be better players available

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I can see the Colts drafting him actually, Would I do it? No....He wont ever be able to flip his hips and drop back but I could see Grigson drafting him for his quick first step, I'd say Grigson could trade down to the 4th to get him...But if he did I strongly believe there will be better players available

 

Grigson sent Freeney and Hughes packing but he is going to spend a pick on a guy who is distinctly less talented than either of them but with the exact same skill set. ;)

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I think you know very well how uninformed some people are about what the Colts do on defense. And it's not surprising that people would be less than familiar with the skill set of a college prospect. What has happened as a result of the media attention is that more people know his name, which leads to more discussion about him. That's different, though, from people just wanting the Colts to be the ones to draft him.

 

When a player is receiving extraordinary attention based on something other than his football skills, that doesn't translate into discussions in favor of drafting him based on football skills.

 

That doesn't even make sense.

 

However, what Balzer40 said does make sense.

 

And I think most Colts fans know what we run scheme-wise. I think most Colts fans know this guy does not have the skill-set required to operate in our system. I think most Colts fans know that both Dwight Freeney and Jerry Hughes are better players than this guy and they know we showed them both the door. Therefore it would make absolutely no sense to draft him based on his skill-set.

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Grigson sent Freeney and Hughes packing but he is going to spend a pick on a guy who is distinctly less talented than either of them but with the exact same skill set. ;)

both Freeney and Hughes could flip there hips and were athletic enough to drop back, They lacked spacial awareness...Thats because they almost always went forward instead of backward or side to side, Grigson spent a 1st last year on a player who is a bit tight in the hips....Not as much as Sam but he is clearly still tight in the hips on tape, the difference is Werner did stand up and drop back some in college, Werner showed a few times he can make plays going side to side dropping back but that was off of play recognition (reading the QB's eyes) and he didn't have to travel out far to do it

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When a player is receiving extraordinary attention based on something other than his football skills, that doesn't translate into discussions in favor of drafting him based on football skills.

 

That doesn't even make sense.

 

However, what Balzer40 said does make sense.

 

And I think most Colts fans know what we run scheme-wise. I think most Colts fans know this guy does not have the skill-set required to operate in our system. I think most Colts fans know that both Dwight Freeney and Jerry Hughes are better players than this guy and they know we showed them both the door. Therefore it would make absolutely no sense to draft him based on his skill-set.

 

Cool deal. 

 

Like I said, I disagree. 

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both Freeney and Hughes could flip there hips and were athletic enough to drop back, They lacked spacial awareness...Thats because they almost always went forward instead of backward or side to side, Grigson spent a 1st last year on a player who is a bit tight in the hips....Not as much as Sam but he is clearly stil tight in the hips on tape, the difference is Werner did stand up and drop back some in college, Werner showed a few times he can make plays going side to side dropping back but that was off of play recognition and he didn't have to travel out far to do it

 

I'm not sure you even know the point you are attempting to make there. Nevertheless, Grigson isn't drafting a less talented pure pass rusher when he dumped two guys who were more talented pure pass rushers.

 

zoolander-mugatu-crazy-pills.jpg

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I'm not sure you even know the point you are attempting to make there. Nevertheless, Grigson isn't drafting a less talented pure pass rusher when he dumped two guys who were more talented pure pass rushers.

 

zoolander-mugatu-crazy-pills.jpg

I hope your right, But Sam is clearly a talented pas rusher

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As was Dwight Freeney.

Right and he could have learned to drop back but at 32 and being hampered by an injury at that time it was more beneficial to him to let him walk and go to a team that was going to have him go forward pass rushing instead of dropping back and holding containment on 1st and 2nd down

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It's comically stupid that this guys name keeps appearing on this forum. The guy is slow and isn't very good. It's almost as if some fans want him just so they can brag about the Colts picking the 1st openly gay NFL player and if thats the case, some fans really need to re-evaluate why they are fans to begin with. If this guy would have never opened his mouth about being gay, their isn't a single fan or media person that would be talking about him. Enough with this guy already...he's not any good.

There are not enough ways I can agree  with this post.

 

Like I stated in another thread, he (Sam) is getting just wanted he wanted... media and fans talking about a marginal NFL prospect who is not talented enough to make it out of training camp. 

 

He will probably be drafted because teams are too scared but based on his one year worth of production in college, small size(for a DE) and lack of speed and agility for an OLB) and poor showing at the combine he should be, at best, an UDFA.

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Watching Sam at the combine, he has shown great pass rushing ability, but terrible coverage skills. He is to small to be a DE, but cant cover well enough to be an every down LB. So, he is basically a another Werner. He's a pass rush specialist. We DEFINATELY dont need that. Hes a great guy, but doesnt fit our team at the moment. 

 

You can never have to many Pass rushers, Mathis and Walden were really the only pass rushers who were able to apply pressue, and Werner wasnt very effective. You cant possibly expect Mathis to play every defensive down, going all out every play is very tiresome you know. Im sure having an effective backup pas rusher to come in and give you a chance to catch your wind isnt a bad thing. With that being said id prefer Adongo to be given his fair shot than drafting Sam. From what i heard this past season Adongo may be a success story in the making.

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Tell that to Dwight Freeney and Jerry Hughes.

 

Well he let go Dwight Freeney because he was old, injury riddled, expensive, terrible against the run and not even a good pass rusher anymore, 5 sacks and 12 tackles the season before showed that.

 

And up untill last year Hughes was a major bust who had showed very little as a pass rusher in his career 5 sacks in 3 years! So Grigs wasn't just dumping them because they weren't great fits for the team he did it because the weren't any good. He turned out to be wrong about Hughes but the guy had done nothing since being drafted to it wasn't really a head scratcher.

 

Now as for Sam he's not the best fit for what we do it looks like he'll struggle in coverage and not be strong enough to hold the edge against the run. But he does show a good first step and hip bend when coming around the edge as a later pick to use as a situational pass rusher and possibly overtime develop to take over for Walden I wouldn't hate the pick.

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Well he let go Dwight Freeney because he was old, injury riddled, expensive, terrible against the run and not even a good pass rusher anymore, 5 sacks and 12 tackles the season before showed that.

 

And up untill last year Hughes was a major bust who had showed very little as a pass rusher in his career 5 sacks in 3 years! So Grigs wasn't just dumping them because they weren't great fits for the team he did it because the weren't any good. He turned out to be wrong about Hughes but the guy had done nothing since being drafted to it wasn't really a head scratcher.

 

Now as for Sam he's not the best fit for what we do it looks like he'll struggle in coverage and not be strong enough to hold the edge against the run. But he does show a good first step and hip bend when coming around the edge as a later pick to use as a situational pass rusher and possibly overtime develop to take over for Walden I wouldn't hate the pick.

Hughes was drafted in the 1st round to a team that had no intention of starting him, He didn't get much playing time sitting behind Freeney and Mathis and wasn't going to, With Hughes the talent was always there it was just a matter of him getting on the field and learning,

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There were flashes of talent from Hughes but he never showed anything near the level of play he showed in Buffalo this year. His first year sure he's behind Mathis and Freeney so that's basically a redshirt but then after that he still wasn't able to get on the field or do anything when he would come in for Freeney or Mathis. I was just pointing out that it's incorrect that us letting go of Freeney and Hughes would have nothing to do if we pick up Sam or not.

 

and FYI dropping into coverage isn't a big concern if Grigs saw Sam as our rush backer behind Mathis since he rushed the passer over 93% of the time in 2013 so he'd have to do it like 2 times a game

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There were flashes of talent from Hughes but he never showed anything near the level of play he showed in Buffalo this year. His first year sure he's behind Mathis and Freeney so that's basically a redshirt but then after that he still wasn't able to get on the field or do anything when he would come in for Freeney or Mathis. I was just pointing out that it's incorrect that us letting go of Freeney and Hughes would have nothing to do if we pick up Sam or not.

 

and FYI dropping into coverage isn't a big concern if Grigs saw Sam as our rush backer behind Mathis since he rushed the passer over 93% of the time in 2013 so he'd have to do it like 2 times a game

Right I understand all that.....although I believe Hughes should have been kept....But it wasn't a huge loss, The problem isn't the rush backer making plays dropping back in coverage, My concern is while he is rushing up field...usually on the outside shoulder of the Tackle that creates a big hole as we saw time and time again last year, My thing is you still need that rush linebacker to read the play , stop his upfield momentum flip his hips(thereby showing his agility), shed the block and make the play on the runner coming up the hole that rush backer created...Otherwise you have the same problem in 3-4 that you did in the 4-3 just a different position....unless you have that 3-4 DE playing that hole the rush backer created(which would in affect keep the runner inside)....which seems likely or in my head the logical thing to do.....Just my opinions of course, Dont amount to much, Dont take them as facts

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Hahaha how bassackwards is that? No. They weren't any good for our scheme because they were pure pass rushers. Pure pass rushers do not fit what we do.

Robert Mathis is a pure pass rusher, he's average at the very best against the run and doesn''t drop in coverage more than 2 times a game. He fit's because he's actually good at rushing the passer the others not so much.

 

Dwight Freeney isn't good for ANY scheme anymore he's not a good pass rusher and he was always terrible against the run. And up until this past season Hughes you could say the same for him. He played in a 4-3 for two seasons and sucked as a pass rusher and against the run then we moved to a 3-4 and he was bit better but still not good as a pass rusher or against the run or coverage. 

 

Then we drafted Werner (another pure pass rusher) and that made Hughes expendable and he was flipped for and ILB that we had a bigger need for. If Grigs could take back the Hughes trade he would because if he played like he did this past season it wouldn't matter that he's a pure pass rusher cause he's finally good at rushing the passer.

 

If the Colts can get Sam in the 5th round or later, which around the back end of where Mayock thinks he'll get picked, he'll fit as a developmental rush backer who can sub in passing situations.

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Right I understand all that.....although I believe Hughes should have been kept....But it wasn't a huge loss, The problem isn't the rush backer making plays dropping back in coverage, My concern is while he is rushing up field...usually on the outside shoulder of the Tackle that creates a big hole as we saw time and time again last year, My thing is you still need that rush linebacker to read the play , stop his upfield momentum flip his hips(thereby showing his agility), shed the block and make the play on the runner coming up the hole that rush backer created...Otherwise you have the same problem in 3-4 that you did in the 4-3 just a different position....unless you have that 3-4 DE playing that hole the rush backer created(which would in affect keep the runner inside)....which seems likely or in my head the logical thing to do.....Just my opinions of course, Dont amount to much, Dont take them as facts

 

At the time I was 50/50 on the deal I didn't mind Shepard since ILB help was needed and Hughes had just been replaced by Werner. Now I don't like it and would like Hughes back. The bit about coverage was more in response to the posts earlier about Sam not being a fit because he is just a pass rusher. Yes I agree that disciplined play by the rushbacker is really important or we'll continue to get gashed in the running game and I hope that Pagano and Manusky really preach it in practice because whether it's Mathis, Werner Micheal Sam or whoever Grigs decided to bring in behind the starters. Because imo it's more about coaching and playing with right technique and awareness than it is players not athletically being able to do it.  

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No, he isn't.

Wow yes he is and it's not even close he's not a run stopper or a coverage linebacker in the least the only thing he does well is rush the passer and he happens to be good enough at it that he fits our scheme just fine.

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Wow yes he is and it's not even close he's not a run stopper or a coverage linebacker in the least the only thing he does well is rush the passer and he happens to be good enough at it that he fits our scheme just fine.

 

No, he isn't.

 

And repeatedly typing something different isn't going to change that.

 

There is a difference between being a primary pass rusher in a 3/4 and a pure pass rusher in a 4/3. You do not know the difference(s).

 

Pure pass rushers do not play in 3/4 schemes. Because they cannot drop into coverage. Mathis on the other hand does. And more importantly CAN drop into coverage. And he has shown that he can play very well in space. 29 snaps (that I know of) spent in pass coverage since transitioning to a 3/4. Compared to only 16 in his last four 4/3 scheme years combined. He's also amassed positive run defense grades via PFF.

 

Sam on the other hand cannot drop into coverage AT ALL.

 

Comparing the two players.....especially erroneously....is either disingenuous or ignorant.

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Watching Sam at the combine, he has shown great pass rushing ability, but terrible coverage skills. He is to small to be a DE, but cant cover well enough to be an every down LB. So, he is basically a another Werner. He's a pass rush specialist. We DEFINATELY dont need that. Hes a great guy, but doesnt fit our team at the moment. 

Michael Sam does not fit our scheme.....because hes gay 

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No, he isn't.

 

And repeatedly typing something different isn't going to change that.

 

There is a difference between being a primary pass rusher in a 3/4 and a pure pass rusher in a 4/3. You do not know the difference(s).

 

Pure pass rushers do not play in 3/4 schemes. Because they cannot drop into coverage. Mathis on the other hand does. And more importantly CAN drop into coverage. And he has shown that he can play very well in space. 29 snaps (that I know of) spent in pass coverage since transitioning to a 3/4. Compared to only 16 in his last four 4/3 scheme years combined. He's also amassed positive run defense grades via PFF.

 

Sam on the other hand cannot drop into coverage AT ALL.

 

Comparing the two players.....especially erroneously....is either disingenuous or ignorant.

 

Yes how could I forget about how Robert Mathis drops into coverage around 3% of plays on defence and even less this past season compared the one before since he moved over to the rushbacker spot over Freeney, so my appoligies he's not a PURE passrusher just 97% of one...and he still is a below average OLB against the run.

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i wouldn't draft him. i don't think he is a nfl player.

 

I'm a little up in the air on it. The guy has the physical ability. So at least he could be a suicide squad guy. But, is he teachable? It looks like the straight line rushing ability is there. But can he be taught to play in space? He may well can...but those questions are what earns personnel people millions or get's them fired.

 

I wish him the best. But I do not see him in a LB spot for us because as of right now, he cannot play in space. He is a pure pass rusher. No different than Jerry Hughes or Dwight Freeney. And if either one of those guys could've dropped back or stayed stout against the run, they'd still be here no matter what their projected costs might have been.

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I'm a little up in the air on it. The guy has the physical ability. So at least he could be a suicide squad guy. But, is he teachable? It looks like the straight line rushing ability is there. But can he be taught to play in space? He may well can...but those questions are what earns personnel people millions or get's them fired.

 

I wish him the best. But I do not see him in a LB spot for us because as of right now, he cannot play in space. He is a pure pass rusher. No different than Jerry Hughes or Dwight Freeney. And if either one of those guys could've dropped back or stayed stout against the run, they'd still be here no matter what their projected costs might have been.

 

i don't like him in any defense. like i said, i wouldn't draft him.

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