Bjoern Werner back at Practice in pads

[jwilli69]

Yeah we'd be much better off with Vaughn starting instead of our second best CB.

based on what we've seen the past 3 games or so, Toler has done nothing spectacular and at best average. When they come out of the gate picking on a db, you know you've been exposed as a marginal player and yes I understand vonte is pretty good so that's why they do it. Toler hasn't stepped up since week 1 it seems

[ColtsBlueFL]

Yeah we'd be much better off with Vaughn starting instead of our second best CB.

 

Or, just pick up an excellent CB off the street and give Vaughn well deserved rest.  Let's get us a #1 receiver to to replace Wayne while we are at it. too.

 

{me thinks I smell sarcasm everywhere...}

[Jason_]

based on what we've seen the past 3 games or so, Toler has done nothing spectacular and at best average. When they come out of the gate picking on a db, you know you've been exposed as a marginal player and yes I understand vonte is pretty good so that's why they do it. Toler hasn't stepped up since week 1 it seems

 

I disagree.  I think he is very good in coverage.  There are a lot more passes thrown to his side because he's the lesser of 2 evil's between he and Davis.  With a much higher target rate, he's going to seem to give up more big plays.  I'd love to see the PFF premium stats on all CB's to see what Toler's completion % given up is and some of his other numbers when taken into context.

 

However he is also a risk taker. Sometimes those risks work out and he gets an INT but other times they don't work out and he gives up a big gain.  When he simply plays straight man up and isn't taking risks I think his coverage has been good.  It was once he went out against the Broncos and Vaughn took his place that a larger number of completions were made to that side.  And that's not to say Vaughn played horribly.  I thought he looked much improved over last year.  One of the biggest difference is that Toler has superior ball skills.  He times jumps better and has better hands to make an INT if given the chance etc.  

[Jason_]

Or, just pick up an excellent CB off the street and give Vaughn well deserved rest.  Let's get us a #1 receiver to to replace Wayne while we are at it. too.

 

{me thinks I smell sarcasm everywhere...}

 

Maybe we convince Deion Sanders and Cris Carter to come out of retirement? lol

[Superman]

Full participation for Werner again on Thursday.

[TKnight24]

@KBowenColts: Final day of practice this week & Bjoern Werner, Darrius Heyward-Bey and Cam Johnson out here practicing. Pagano will address injuries soon

[BlueCollarColts]

No Greg Toler? Man, step up Cassius

[ColtsUrUs]

No Greg Toler? Man, step up Cassius

I am   . 

[dudeski]

I disagree. I think he is very good in coverage. There are a lot more passes thrown to his side because he's the lesser of 2 evil's between he and Davis. With a much higher target rate, he's going to seem to give up more big plays. I'd love to see the PFF premium stats on all CB's to see what Toler's completion % given up is and some of his other numbers when taken into context.

However he is also a risk taker. Sometimes those risks work out and he gets an INT but other times they don't work out and he gives up a big gain. When he simply plays straight man up and isn't taking risks I think his coverage has been good. It was once he went out against the Broncos and Vaughn took his place that a larger number of completions were made to that side. And that's not to say Vaughn played horribly. I thought he looked much improved over last year. One of the biggest difference is that Toler has superior ball skills. He times jumps better and has better hands to make an INT if given the chance etc.

completion % against a cb is a worthless stat

[Gavin]

completion % against a cb is a worthless stat

On its own yes but along with yards given up by that Corner its a very informative stat

[dudeski]

On its own yes but along with yards given up by that Corner its a very informative stat

no it isnt

[Gavin]

no it isnt

why not

[dudeski]

why not

because you can allow a completion and it be exactly what you are supposed to do. It is a meaningless stat. No ifs about it

[Jason_]

because you can allow a completion and it be exactly what you are supposed to do. It is a meaningless stat. No ifs about it

Can you give me 3 examples of situations where a cb is supposed to allow a completion?

[CanuckColt]

Meh...  Good for him to get some reps...but not expecting anything.

[colts4970]

I'll stay optimistic about this pick. He hasn't impressed me at all.

[dudeski]

Can you give me 3 examples of situations where a cb is supposed to allow a completion?

allow is not the right word. Concede is better

[Jason_]

allow is not the right word. Concede is better

 

Can you give me 3 examples of situations where a cb is supposed to Concede a completion?

[dudeski]

Can you give me 3 examples of situations where a cb is supposed to Concede a completion?

cover 3 on 3rd and 8. You allowing a 5 yard play. There are plenty of situations where a corner can give up a completion and he is doing exactly what the coaches want as long as he comes up and tackles

[Jason_]

cover 3 on 3rd and 8. You allowing a 5 yard play. There are plenty of situations where a corner can give up a completion and he is doing exactly what the coaches want as long as he comes up and tackles

So there are plenty of situations yet you can name only one?

[dudeski]

So there are plenty of situations yet you can name only one?

ever hear of prevent d? If you don't understand, do your own research.

Or just give up and agree with me because I am right

[Gavin]

Can you give me 3 examples of situations where a cb is supposed to allow a completion?

He is right actually, some completions are designed, not many but sometimes it help set something up later or kill time off a clock if its a short completion late in a game

[Gavin]

because you can allow a completion and it be exactly what you are supposed to do. It is a meaningless stat. No ifs about it

I dont think meaningless is the right word, a Corner that gave up 8 catches for 100 yards is not without meaning (as an example) now like you say maybe a couple of those are designed to be given up of course but certainly not all 8 and 100 yards worth, its means there was a fair amount of toying with that Corner going on by the WR

[dudeski]

I dont think meaningless is the right word, a Corner that gave up 8 catches for 100 yards is not without meaning (as an example) now like you say maybe a couple of those are designed to be given up of course but certainly not all 8 and 100 yards worth, its means there was a fair amount of toying with that Corner going on by the WR

heard a former gm, coach and player talk about that stat. They said it was meaningless. There aren't just a few situations where a completion is ok. There are plenty

[Gavin]

heard a former gm, coach and player talk about that stat. They said it was meaningless. There aren't just a few situations where a completion is ok. There are plenty

Im leery about trusting what they say sometimes because players and GM's in most overall instances seem to want to keep things close to the vest to protect there own or tip there hand(not that I am paranoid they are telling all lies of course)

[Jason_]

ever hear of prevent d? If you don't understand, do your own research.

Or just give up and agree with me because I am right

 

You are only right in your own mind.  I do not agree that the stat is completely meaningless.  Just like any stat it needs to be taken in context and in comparison with other stats.  Every stat is helpful but no stat is absolutely conclusive. 

 

I do know what a prevent D is.  I'm a colts fan.  I've watched prevent d for almost a decade up until the time Pagano got here.  However I still think your initial wording was very poor.  Perhaps you should have corrected the phrase "supposed to" instead of changing "allow" to "concede".  There are very, very few circumstances where a cb is "supposed to" allow a completion but there are circumstances were allowing a completion is acceptable.  Acceptable as in preventing a completion would have been better but allowing a short completion and making an immediate stop is not considered bad.

[dudeski]

You are only right in your own mind. I do not agree that the stat is completely meaningless. Just like any stat it needs to be taken in context and in comparison with other stats. Every stat is helpful but no stat is absolutely conclusive.

I do know what a prevent D is. I'm a colts fan. I've watched prevent d for almost a decade up until the time Pagano got here. However I still think your initial wording was very poor. Perhaps you should have corrected the phrase "supposed to" instead of changing "allow" to "concede". There are very, very few circumstances where a cb is "supposed to" allow a completion but there are circumstances were allowing a completion is acceptable. Acceptable as in preventing a completion would have been better but allowing a short completion and making an immediate stop is not considered bad.

nope

Certain coverages concede certain passes. That is a fact. Whether you want to believe it or not

[Jason_]

nope

Certain coverages concede certain passes. That is a fact. Whether you want to believe it or not

 

 

lol...ok then.  So you're sticking with your argument that there are many, many situations where the CB allowing a completion takes priority over the CB not allowing a completion?  We will clearly have to agree to disagree because I think that Gavin's example of a final drive with very little time left is about the only time a coach would actually PREFER to allow the completion and then make the tackle inbounds instead of preventing the completion from ever happening.  

 

for the record though, "Certain coverages concede certain passes." is worded much better than "There are plenty of situations where a corner can give up a completion..."

[dudeski]

lol...ok then. So you're sticking with your argument that there are many, many situations where the CB allowing a completion takes priority over the CB not allowing a completion? We will clearly have to agree to disagree because I think that Gavin's example of a final drive with very little time left is about the only time a coach would actually PREFER to allow the completion and then make the tackle inbounds instead of preventing the completion from ever happening.

for the record though, "Certain coverages concede certain passes." is worded much better than "There are plenty of situations where a corner can give up a completion..."

i encourage you to actually look into this. You might be surprised what you find

[jvan1973]

chances of him playing - slim to absolutely zero. Werner will NOT play vs. Houston, wont happen, can't happen. end of story.

Nice call..

[Dustin]

I disagree.  I think he is very good in coverage.  There are a lot more passes thrown to his side because he's the lesser of 2 evil's between he and Davis.  With a much higher target rate, he's going to seem to give up more big plays.  I'd love to see the PFF premium stats on all CB's to see what Toler's completion % given up is and some of his other numbers when taken into context.

 

However he is also a risk taker. Sometimes those risks work out and he gets an INT but other times they don't work out and he gives up a big gain.  When he simply plays straight man up and isn't taking risks I think his coverage has been good.  It was once he went out against the Broncos and Vaughn took his place that a larger number of completions were made to that side.  And that's not to say Vaughn played horribly.  I thought he looked much improved over last year.  One of the biggest difference is that Toler has superior ball skills.  He times jumps better and has better hands to make an INT if given the chance etc.  

 

 

He's been thrown at 38 times for 21 completions (55% completion) for 264 yards, 3 TDs, 1 INT, for a passer rating of 92.