The Issues of Trent Richardson are Not his Fault...

[Le Neon]

I watch every game live and then again multiple times on game rewind. The O-line is a good (not great) run blocking unit.

Look, Trent is the only guy so far who has not run well behind our O-line. Ballard, Bradshaw, and Brown have all done fine. We are currently the 5th ranked rushing team in total rush yards. We wouldn't be without a good run blocking O-line.

It's time people realize that a good run blocking O-line doesn't mean an 80 yard TD every time and that there will be games where the RB gets hit behind the LOS. We've seen more good than bad with this O-line. It's night and day compared to last year.

 

We wouldn't be the eighth ranked rushing team if Andrew Luck wasn't averaging 30 yards rushing per game.  Take away his scrambling and we're the ~20th ranked rushing team.

 

The PFF o-line grades for run blocking are negative for most of our lineman.  Castonzo is the lone standout positive.  Thornton has been decent so far as well.  McGlynn has been objectively as awful as he subjectively looks, with Satele almost as bad.  Cherilus has been dead average in the run game.  And Havili has been an awful lead blocker so far.

 

We don't have a good run blocking line.  Possibly an average run blocking line if we're being kind.  Further,  we had 1 good game each from Ballard (Oakland) and Bradshaw (San Fran), hardly a trend for anybody.  Brown has done well gashing the defense in his spot carries and he looks like a weapon in the passing game.  But he had his first opportunity with double digit carries against Denver and averaged 2.1 yards per carry.  

[dw49]

four fumbles in less than two years says other wise.

 

 

It's around the average for NFL running backs. 3 last year in 267 carries and 1 this year would not qualify him as a "fumbler." 

[NewEra]

13 for 28yds Adrian Peterson must really suck! His ypc is so bad he must really suck. Vikings should cut him. Against the horrible giants.

/sarcasm

Point is, hard to run with no holes it a stacked box. You people complaining about Trent need to get a clue

[BpG]

13 for 28yds Adrian Peterson must really suck! His ypc is so bad he must really suck. Vikings should cut him. Against the horrible giants.

/sarcasm

Point is, hard to run with no holes it a stacked box. You people complaining about Trent need to get a clue

 

 

You're taking one game, against a very stout run defense in the giants. Versus going on two full seasons of 3.2 ypc and he has Andrew Luck?

 

Come on man. That's just nonsense. 

[BpG]

You're taking one game, against a very stout run defense in the giants. With that joke Josh Freeman at the helm. Versus going on two full seasons of 3.2 ypc?

 

Come on man. That's just nonsense. 

[cooh62]

The guy has some great physical tools but like it has been mentioned many times, his vision isn't what you would want to see out of a 3rd overall pick. Does anyone have an example of an RB with poor vision improving his game to a high level over time?

[Le Neon]

Could we please define "vision" for me?  Did Madden score him a 12 in it or something?  I don't see him out there in Mr. Magoo glasses.

 

He doesn't need good vision, he needs x-ray vision to find the nonexistant holes he's running behind on most downs.

[BpG]

Could we please define "vision" for me?  Did Madden score him a 12 in it or something?  I don't see him out there in Mr. Magoo glasses.

 

He doesn't need good vision, he needs x-ray vision to find the nonexistant holes he's running behind on most downs.

 

 

http://forums.colts.com/topic/21441-my-take-on-t-rich/page-2#entry589831

[WastedColt]

Trich is doing just like Lynch when he first started in Seattle. The fans wanted to cut him too... give Trich some time, he has the physical tools he will improve

[Le Neon]

http://forums.colts.com/topic/21441-my-take-on-t-rich/page-2#entry589831

 

I see a safety coming hard to fill the hole, and penetration against the LT preventing an effective bounce to the outside.  Not that drawing lines on static images are educational.  At least give me a gif.

[NewEra]

You're taking one game, against a very stout run defense in the giants. Versus going on two full seasons of 3.2 ypc and he has Andrew Luck?

Come on man. That's just nonsense.

Then obviously you don't watch the Colts. Because most of the time he is being asked to run in power formations which the teams know damn well they're running the ball. We don't have that kind if line that can impose its will on a defensive line. So throwing Trent under the bus is nonsense.

[NewEra]

Trich is doing just like Lynch when he first started in Seattle. The fans wanted to cut him too... give Trich some time, he has the physical tools he will improve

This x10.

Yet people are so ready to bash any player on the team at a drop if a hat. I need a Xanax just to come to the forums. That or go hit the gym. ;)

[LockeDown]

four fumbles in less than two years says other wise.

Adrian Peterson, a few years ago on the Brett Favre Vikings,  fumbled a lot by anybody's standards.  Once again, he is considered the best.  Just like last night, Peterson had zero running lanes and was stuffed the whole game.  Once again, he is considered the best.  So if Trent is behaving like Peterson, are we really going to call him a fumbler and a bust?  I'm not, but you can if you wish.      

[GoColts8818]

Adrian Peterson, a few years ago on the Brett Favre Vikings, fumbled a lot by anybody's standards. Once again, he is considered the best. Just like last night, Peterson had zero running lanes and was stuffed the whole game. Once again, he is considered the best. So if Trent is behaving like Peterson, are we really going to call him a fumbler and a bust? I'm not, but you can if you wish.

when Trent starts putting up yards like Peterson then I'll learn to live with his fumbles. Also I never caled Trent a bust. I pointed out the area of his game I am concerned about I laid out my view on his YPC in an earlier post and explained why it didn't bother me. Also Peterson worked to correct his fumbling problem because he knew it was an issue. Hopefully Trent does the same.

[jshipp23]

I didn't literally spell it out in my original post,  so I'll spell it out here....

 

I think the issues are Pep and the staff,  not Trent's....

 

I think we are way, way too predictable when Trent is in the game.    We fool no one, and our OL,  while very much improved,  is not good enough to over-power teams when we're this predictable.

 

I hope we completely re-think our approach to Trent during this bye week.....

There will be plenty of room on the bandwagon when Richardson gets his confidence and is used correctly...I firmly believe given better blocking and even without better blocking if the defense is back on there heels and don't know everytime he is gonna run he will be very successful here, and within 2 years he WILL be a top 5 back in this league...Dustin talked about him being a big strong "scat back" which is a very rare skill set that can be utilized successfully..There was another guy with this skill set, but he had much better blocking and was slower than TRich and his name was Jerome Bettis...This trade,while being criticized now will go down as all-time genius in a few years, just wait and see...

[smittywerb]

I don't think we're a good team for him.

 

 

We don't have the line for him.  Heck, even CJ2K struggles because of his crap OC and line, is CJ2k a bad RB?

[jshipp23]

I think he has shown better instincts as a running back then Richardson, Both are getting close to the same amount of carries per game  this year but there production comparison is like night and day, Now I have said before its not all on Richardson but just watching the two its clear Morris is the better rb to this point

Oh man, Morris is a product of the read option offense, Richardson is waaay better than him!! The difference is everyone keys on TRich, but with Morris the defense can't just go after him cause they don't "know" if he is gonna run or Bob Griffin or they are gonna throw, similar situation with Marshawn Lynch in Seattle this cannot be underestimated....Not to mention Shanahan has made many "average" backs look great with his blocking schemes he is the best coach period when it comes to designing a running game and blocking scheme...I don't know if you noticed but many great backs have struggled this year, Peterson , Martin, MJD, McFadden....etc, etc...No matter how great you are if you don't have a passing game or dominant run blocking line you are gonna struggle...The only backs having success are all apart of the read option or have dominant lines...Lynch, Morris, Gore, McCoy...Also...You saw what happened to McCoy without Vick there to run the read option he was shutdown....It's simple really...

[WastedColt]

There will be plenty of room on the bandwagon when Richardson gets his confidence and is used correctly...I firmly believe given better blocking and even without better blocking if the defense is back on there heels and don't know everytime he is gonna run he will be very successful here, and within 2 years he WILL be a top 5 back in this league...Dustin talked about him being a big strong "scat back" which is a very rare skill set that can be utilized successfully..There was another guy with this skill set, but he had much better blocking and was slower than TRich and his name was Jerome Bettis...This trade,while being criticized now will go down as all-time genius in a few years, just wait and see...

Agreed. Only a matter of time until the offense utilities him correctly and he becomes skilled enough to start ripping off big gains

[jshipp23]

Never in my life, have I met such a large group of people that thought running back vision made the offensive line block better.  Only Barry Sanders could get a 4.6 YPC with our OL in a 2TE/2RB set.  Fact of the matter is, when you've got 8 guys blocking in the box, you're going to have 8 or 9 defensive guys in the box.  I trust what Pep is doing because we are winning, but I'm with the OP, it's not like Pep is really trying to showcase Richardson's abilities anymore than he would if Ron Dayne were in our backfield in the same set.  And before you go barking off what Donald Brown has "done with the same line", remember that he is in almost exclusively with 3 WR sets and spread looks.  Last night, when he actually played in the 2TE/2RB set in the second half after the fumble, he didn't do any better than Trent.

He actually lost 2 or 3 yards in those telegraphed sets where Richardson has been carrying 3 or 4 guys for 2 yard gains..It's amazing how biased people are towards him...

[OffensivelyPC]

I watch every game live and then again multiple times on game rewind. The O-line is a good (not great) run blocking unit.

Look, Trent is the only guy so far who has not run well behind our O-line. Ballard, Bradshaw, and Brown have all done fine. We are currently the 5th ranked rushing team in total rush yards. We wouldn't be without a good run blocking O-line.

It's time people realize that a good run blocking O-line doesn't mean an 80 yard TD every time and that there will be games where the RB gets hit behind the LOS. We've seen more good than bad with this O-line. It's night and day compared to last year.

Well, keep in mind that Luck accounts for over 26 Rush yards per game.  Not too many QBs have that kind of clout in helping the run game.  So to some extent, our RYPG are a bit inflated.  But nevertheless, we are in the top 10.  And my issue isn't with Trent's play so much as it is with how we are criticizing Trent when he's set up in a formation that is designed to grind out short yards.  He can get the 3 yards in this scenario and often does, but no RB is going ot be able to pick up a 15 yard+ gain in this set enough times that his YPC would be in the upper echelon.  So, my only point is, his YPC or advanced metrics won't tell the whole story.  They almost never do, but in this case, it's even more so true.  Donald Brown for instance, has a great YPC, but when he was put in the 2TE/2RB set full time after Richardson's fumble, he did worse than Richardson.  The RBs effectiveness becomes non-existant when there's nowhere to go.

 

And with the box score scouting bit, I wasn't referring to anyone in particular, but there just appear to be two camps, and we all have our generic fall back arguments and to me, the YPC is concerning, I won't deny that.  But at the same token, I don't think it's fair to place the entire onus on Trent.  There are other factors in this. 

[OffensivelyPC]

We wouldn't be the eighth ranked rushing team if Andrew Luck wasn't averaging 30 yards rushing per game.  Take away his scrambling and we're the ~20th ranked rushing team.

 

The PFF o-line grades for run blocking are negative for most of our lineman.  Castonzo is the lone standout positive.  Thornton has been decent so far as well.  McGlynn has been objectively as awful as he subjectively looks, with Satele almost as bad.  Cherilus has been dead average in the run game.  And Havili has been an awful lead blocker so far.

 

We don't have a good run blocking line.  Possibly an average run blocking line if we're being kind.  Further,  we had 1 good game each from Ballard (Oakland) and Bradshaw (San Fran), hardly a trend for anybody.  Brown has done well gashing the defense in his spot carries and he looks like a weapon in the passing game.  But he had his first opportunity with double digit carries against Denver and averaged 2.1 yards per carry.  

I'm glad someone else pointed this out (as I made the same point in my immediately above post).  I had him at just over 26 YPG, but the poitn remains the same.  Our rushing rankings are a bit inflated.  If I had the time, I would go through all 32 teams and take away all QB rushing statistics for scrambles (and it would be difficult considering the teams that run the read option) just to see the difference.  But I would be willing to bet that we wouldn't be top ten in Rush YPG if we're talking only about designed runs.

[Dudley Smith]

For those of you saying TRich is just another back or that he is average, did you watch him play at Alabama? The dude is most definitely not your average RB. I am not one of those SEC fan boys who thinks the SEC is the be-all end-all of college football, but TRich was arguably the best offensive football player in the SEC in his final year at Alabama. He didn't forget how to play football when he came to the NFL. Are there things he can get better at? Yes, of course. But at the same time this coaching staff needs to put him in better positions to pick up yards, and running a play out of the jumbo set every time TRich is in the backfield is not helping anything.

 

Sure, the YPC are a concern for TRich, but he is running in a still relatively new system and one that is hell-bent on being painfully predictable when he is in the game it seems. It has still only been a few weeks that he has been with the Colts. Give him some time and I think he will truly begin to shine (assuming the coaching staff can mix it up a bit when he is in the game).

[rittdk01]

That fumble at the end of the Broncos game was inexcusable.  Even if he runs like crap he is just trying to burn clock and let Pat punt it away.  The defense was playing great and had the Colts up by 13 at that point the only way Denver was getting back in was a turnover.  Richardson better be thanking his lucky stars the Colts won the game.

[Flash7]

Well, keep in mind that Luck accounts for over 26 Rush yards per game. Not too many QBs have that kind of clout in helping the run game. So to some extent, our RYPG are a bit inflated. But nevertheless, we are in the top 10. And my issue isn't with Trent's play so much as it is with how we are criticizing Trent when he's set up in a formation that is designed to grind out short yards. He can get the 3 yards in this scenario and often does, but no RB is going ot be able to pick up a 15 yard+ gain in this set enough times that his YPC would be in the upper echelon. So, my only point is, his YPC or advanced metrics won't tell the whole story. They almost never do, but in this case, it's even more so true. Donald Brown for instance, has a great YPC, but when he was put in the 2TE/2RB set full time after Richardson's fumble, he did worse than Richardson. The RBs effectiveness becomes non-existant when there's nowhere to go.

And with the box score scouting bit, I wasn't referring to anyone in particular, but there just appear to be two camps, and we all have our generic fall back arguments and to me, the YPC is concerning, I won't deny that. But at the same token, I don't think it's fair to place the entire onus on Trent. There are other factors in this.

Very intelligent and well-written response. I appreciate your thoughts on this. I see the points that you are making.

I would like to add that the teams ranked ahead of us in total rushing yards are Seattle, San Francisco, Buffalo, and Philadelphia (Mike Vick) to name a few (per ESPN stats). As you can see, these teams also have athletic mobile QBs that account for many of their teams overall rushing yards, making the Andrew Luck rushing argument slightly moot in my opinion, since other teams benefit from this as well.

I'll give Trent the benefit of the doubt and watch as the season unfolds. I hope that we are able to continue with building the O-line so that we can finally achieve that balance that we seem to be looking for.

[BOTT]

For those of you saying TRich is just another back or that he is average, did you watch him play at Alabama? The dude is most definitely not your average RB. I am not one of those SEC fan boys who thinks the SEC is the be-all end-all of college football, but TRich was arguably the best offensive football player in the SEC in his final year at Alabama. He didn't forget how to play football when he came to the NFL. Are there things he can get better at? Yes, of course. But at the same time this coaching staff needs to put him in better positions to pick up yards, and running a play out of the jumbo set every time TRich is in the backfield is not helping anything.

 

Sure, the YPC are a concern for TRich, but he is running in a still relatively new system and one that is heck-bent on being painfully predictable when he is in the game it seems. It has still only been a few weeks that he has been with the Colts. Give him some time and I think he will truly begin to shine (assuming the coaching staff can mix it up a bit when he is in the game).

Mark Ingram looked like a stud at Bama too.

[BOTT]

13 for 28yds Adrian Peterson must really suck! His ypc is so bad he must really suck. Vikings should cut him. Against the horrible giants.

/sarcasm

Point is, hard to run with no holes it a stacked box. You people complaining about Trent need to get a clue

Nothing wrong with people sharing their opinion on Richardson...people disagree on the forum all the time. As long as people aren't using terms like stooopid and bum, there is nothing wrong with it.

I'm just being consistent....I thought the browns were foolish for drafting Richardson that hight in the first place and said so on this forum.

[OffensivelyPC]

Very intelligent and well-written response. I appreciate your thoughts on this. I see the points that you are making.

I would like to add that the teams ranked ahead of us in total rushing yards are Seattle, San Francisco, Buffalo, and Philadelphia (Mike Vick) to name a few (per ESPN stats). As you can see, these teams also have athletic mobile QBs that account for many of their teams overall rushing yards, making the Andrew Luck rushing argument slightly moot in my opinion, since other teams benefit from this as well.

I'll give Trent the benefit of the doubt and watch as the season unfolds. I hope that we are able to continue with building the O-line so that we can finally achieve that balance that we seem to be looking for.

Acknowledging the weakness in the Luck rushing argument, I actually made a poitn in a response to Le Neon that I'd be really curious to see what our rushing stats would be like if you could remove scrambles after the pass broke down, or in other words, designed runs.  This would include your typical rush play - dive or whatever - and the option stuff.  It would take some considerable digging, which I don't have time to do, but it would be interesting to see the 32 teams rushing stats adjusted to show designed rushing yards.  I think this would be a more accurate barometer as opposed ot just taking out ALL QB rushing yards, because as your counter-argument assumes - and accurately at that - even QBs have rush yards as part of a designed run play.

 

As for the balance, I'm all good with what Pep's trying to do.  I just think that we run out of it too mcuh.  We can have a balanced attack with a 3 WR set or even a 21 personnel (I think I got my numbers in right order, but 2 RBs, 1 TE - especially now that Allens out).  I just don't see the point in packing everyone inbetween the hashes and just mashing bodies for 1 or 2 yard gains with the possibility of a 4 yard gain or 2 yard loss...on first and 10.  But like I said, we're winning, so i'ts not like my criticism of Peps' offense and vision has much weight to it right now.

[husker61]

Mark Ingram looked like a stud at Bama too.

 

this is where so many posters get it wrong over and over. people need to forget what a player did in college. "we should sign xxxxx, he was great in college" and almost every time they are wrong. for years nebraska had dominant college rb's, but few did much it in the nfl.

[jshipp23]

this is where so many posters get it wrong over and over. people need to forget what a player did in college. "we should sign xxxxx, he was great in college" and almost every time they are wrong. for years nebraska had dominant college rb's, but few did much it in the nfl.

Nebraska is irrelevent....Tom Osborne days are over and will never be close to that level again....Haven't been good since the Tommy Frazier days...Only good NFL players to make it outta there are Suh and Prince....The only good RB back ever to come outta there went to federal prison..

[OffensivelyPC]

this is where so many posters get it wrong over and over. people need to forget what a player did in college. "we should sign xxxxx, he was great in college" and almost every time they are wrong. for years nebraska had dominant college rb's, but few did much it in the nfl.

I never understood people who argued college careers as a means for success in the NFL.  I don't think that's what BloodontheTrack's intent was when he said that.  I think he was making the same poitn you are making, and that is, Mark was a beast in college, but he hasn't been that beast since he's been in the NFL.

[husker61]

I never understood people who argued college careers as a means for success in the NFL.  I don't think that's what BloodontheTrack's intent was when he said that.  I think he was making the same poitn you are making, and that is, Mark was a beast in college, but he hasn't been that beast since he's been in the NFL.

 

i was agreeing with him and giving an example.

[husker61]

Nebraska is irrelevent....Tom Osborne days are over and will never be close to that level again....Haven't been good since the Tommy Frazier days...Only good NFL players to make it outta there are Suh and Prince....The only good RB back ever to come outta there went to federal prison..

 

i will write this post of as coming from a youngster who just wants change the subject and argue. the point of my post was to give an example of dominant college players that do nothing in the nfl.

[dudeski]

Nebraska is irrelevent....Tom Osborne days are over and will never be close to that level again....Haven't been good since the Tommy Frazier days...Only good NFL players to make it outta there are Suh and Prince....The only good RB back ever to come outta there went to federal prison..

completely false

[NewEra]

Nothing wrong with people sharing their opinion on Richardson...people disagree on the forum all the time. As long as people aren't using terms like stooopid and bum, there is nothing wrong with it.

I'm just being consistent....I thought the browns were foolish for drafting Richardson that hight in the first place and said so on this forum.

No no no, you're totally right. I take the bait to easy and want to stand up and defend our players. Some completely deserve their criticism. Like Trent, sure he could stand to improve his vision. But wonder if it's a vision problem or lack of knowing when and where to hit the whole. I do notice he is a load to take down in space and even if there's not much if a hole he seems to drag the pile 2-3 yards.

[Flash7]

NFL.com has their take on this. Just sharing....

 

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000267676/article/trent-richardson-not-playing-to-expectations-for-colts

[BOTT]

No no no, you're totally right. I take the bait to easy and want to stand up and defend our players. Some completely deserve their criticism. Like Trent, sure he could stand to improve his vision. But wonder if it's a vision problem or lack of knowing when and where to hit the whole. I do notice he is a load to take down in space and even if there's not much if a hole he seems to drag the pile 2-3 yards.

I get it...there are some posters who seem to enjoy bashing players or simply want to say "I told you so." The flogging of Fleener drove me nuts.

[OffensivelyPC]

i was agreeing with him and giving an example.

I thought so, just making sure I understood you. 

[Le Neon]

I feel like I've been overstating my case.  Trent hasn't been wowing anyone, for certain.  It's too soon for meaningful conclusions either way.

 

NFL.com has their take on this. Just sharing....

 

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000267676/article/trent-richardson-not-playing-to-expectations-for-colts

 

Fascinating that PFF and Football Outsiders come to such distinctly different conclusions on our o-line.  I need to read up on how FO calculates the run blocking metric.

[ThatOneColtFan]

Bama backs usually aren't that good in the NFL. I was hoping Trent was just slow to learn our offense, and the team insist he is still learning. But the passed couple of weeks have been no improvement. With Wayne out, we need the running game to be as good as ever to take pressure off of Andrew. I have said so many bad things about Brown's sloppy running, but he has completely out performed Richardson. I say we let Brown get more carries, and snaps until Richardson can prove he's worth the trade.

 

It's about time we start playing to our personnel anyway, we aren't a running team. I do like a balanced attack though and we will need it in the playoffs, but if we have a once in a decade QB we should use him more.

 

Trent needs some paragon of a RB coach to help him work on his technique, cause he has like no burst or vision. And well, he just isn't that good so far guys.

[DavidHM]

As soon as we adopt a "pass first mentality" TRich will be fine.