Tampa 2....has To Go!

[Dtman513]

This whole Tampa 2 scheme isn't working...

I know the whole "If It ain't broke, don't fix it" motto has been at work here for a couple seasons, but the change needs to happen....

What kind of change do you think we need on D to better ourselves for the long run and become a feared force?

[Phil J]

lacey needs to be cut this morning. immediately. dont even let him in the building. throw his gear in the parking lot where he can find it.

coyer needs his pink slip sometime this week or next week.

Edited October 10, 2011 by Phil J

[Andy]

I wouldn't say have to go, but they have to use much less of it

[Coltsman1788]

Coyer needs to go. That is the first step. We can figure the rest out along the way. rotfl

[coltsfaninsandiego]

lacey needs to be cut this morning. immediately. dont even let him in the building. throw his gear in the parking lot where he can find it.

coyer needs his pink slip sometime this week or next week.

They won't cut him. Did they cut Tim Jennings? NOPE. The man I feel who was a big factor in us losing the Superbowl with his horrible coverage.

[coltsfaninsandiego]

I agree. The Tampa 2 just isn't going to cut it anymore.

[pizza guy]

What we need is a little diversity in the defensive gameplan. The Tampa 2 system has strengths, but it has weaknesses as well. When you show the same scheme over and over, offenses will exploit the weaknesses.

You'd think the Colts would pick up on the concept of confusing offenses with exotic defenses since it's how the rest of the NFL tries to play against Peyton. Belichick has done it for years, and the Ravens have been trying to play chess with Ray Lewis vs. Peyton. Yet, on defense, the Colts allow the David Garrards and Matt Cassells of the world to carve them up like Thanksgiving turkeys.

Be aggressive. Bump and run. Blitz. Throw in a zone, a cover 2, some man to man. Drop Mathis into coverage and rush Wheeler. Stop dropping Angerer 20 yards into coverage when a team throws 5 yard dump passes 53 times in a row!

Also, the DBs on this team suck. There's no excuse for their play. A lot of people want to blame the scheme and coaching, and while I agree that those aspects are also in need of upgrades, the overall talent of our DBs is poor. Look at where these guys were drafted, and you'll find all you need to know about why they're so bad. Until Polian decides to address the CB position early in the draft, we'll continue to suck, no matter the scheme or coach.

[21isSuperman]

I wouldn't say the Tampa 2 needs to go. We just need better players in the secondary. The Tampa 2 requires a run stuffing SS (like Bob) and speedy corners who can tackle. Many of our corners are not speedy, nor can they tackle very well...anyone see the 175 lbs Lacey try to tackle the 220 lbs Bowe? Our secondary is not fit for Tampa 2; we don't need a change in scheme, we need a change in players and coaching. Coyer needs to go, the only player we have in our secondary that fits Tampa 2 is Bethea, who is great at playing center field

[CR91]

we have the keys to be an aggressive defense. i dont understand why the coaches dont let them play aggressively. its like our defense are lions and the coaches are keeping them in there cages.

Edited October 10, 2011 by coltsrule91

[dn4192]

Well we know no one is going anywhere right now, the team will continue as it is and at the end of the season a full and complete review of coaches, players and such will incure. Hey keep what we got...get's us 1 step closer to Andrew Luck.

[Orlando Fan]

I am not sure we have the personnel to run any other defensive scheme. Trying to change it mid-season with the personnel we have could make things even worse. I agree with some of the statements above that it's personnel. That being said, I think people have figured out the Tampa 2. I am no coach, but even I can recognize that after the opposing team snaps the ball and you watch the Colts LB'ers drop back 7-10 steps that leaves a big opening in the middle of the field for a 8-10 yard pass. Also, it seems like nearly all passes completed are on the right side (Lacey's) of the field. The team is sorely missed Bullit and Sanders.

[Betty27_1]

Coyer needs to go. And we need a Defensive Coach who can come up with more than one scheme and be able to make adjustments at the half if need be. In last night's Packers and Falcons game, nothing the Packers defense did was working a whole lot in the first half, but second half Dom Capers adjusted and Packers wound up winning.

In my opinion, the biggest reason why these guys probably can't learn a new defense in a week's time is because they've been using the same dang defense for way too long. They should be able to learn a new defense in a week's time. If other teams can, they can. Problem is, the coaches are too dang stubborn to admit that maybe what they're doing isn't working.

[dn4192]

Coyer needs to go. And we need a Defensive Coach who can come up with more than one scheme and be able to make adjustments at the half if need be. In last night's Packers and Falcons game, nothing the Packers defense did was working a whole lot in the first half, but second half Dom Capers adjusted and Packers wound up winning.

In my opinion, the biggest reason why these guys probably can't learn a new defense in a week's time is because they've been using the same dang defense for way too long. They should be able to learn a new defense in a week's time. If other teams can, they can. Problem is, the coaches are too dang stubborn to admit that maybe what they're doing isn't working.

Installing a new defense is not something you can do in a week. It's something you work on throughout the offseason and also you have to have the players that can play that new system. We have what we have for the rest of this season with maybe some very minor tweeks.

[mightisright]

Coyer needs to go. And we need a Defensive Coach who can come up with more than one scheme and be able to make adjustments at the half if need be. In last night's Packers and Falcons game, nothing the Packers defense did was working a whole lot in the first half, but second half Dom Capers adjusted and Packers wound up winning.

In my opinion, the biggest reason why these guys probably can't learn a new defense in a week's time is because they've been using the same dang defense for way too long. They should be able to learn a new defense in a week's time. If other teams can, they can. Problem is, the coaches are too dang stubborn to admit that maybe what they're doing isn't working.

That's what I don't get. The first year Coyer came in he tweaked the defense and we were playing more aggressively, more bump and run, more blitzes, mores schemes. Why'd he quit? Do we just not have the personnel to be aggressive? Or did Polian tell him to cut it out?

[hawkeyes]

It's NOT the scheme - its the PLAYERS! Lacey, Tyron (cut), Johnson, Powers, Rucker, Caldwell, Lefeged .... Seriously these guys are NOT NFL calibur players! They only guy we have now that can play decent coverage is Bethea.... we really should have kept Hayden and drafted better in that area the last several years!

[cmgww]

Agreed....did anyone pay attention to the D game plan the 2nd half?? The DID blitz, mixed up looks, went man to man....it it got them burnt (Lacey in particular). It's the PLAYERS!!! They didn't sit back like in the Tampa game, and they still got toasted. A better secondary would fix a lot of that. BP, like him or not, was right....though losing Powers hurt big

[Coltsagent]

Those slant plays to Bowe on Lacey were all in man-to-man coverage, actually may have done better if in Tampa 2

[jskinnz]

we have the keys to be an aggressive defense. i dont understand why the coaches dont let them play aggressively. its like our defense are lions and the coaches are keeping them in there cages.

I am assuming by agressive, you mean a risk-taking, blitz-happy defense? If that is the case, the Colts don't have anywhere near the personnel to run that type of scheme. You need agreessive, bump & run corners who can cover mana to man. You need LB's who can both cover and blitz. And you need better DT's to take up blockers. Tell me - which of those qualities do the Colts posses?

The fact is the zone coverage the Colts use is designed to hide players and force teams to take the long road v. the quick over the top strike.

The Tampa 2 is not the problem. It is the players within the scheme that are the issue.

[Jason_]

I wouldn't say the Tampa 2 needs to go. We just need better players in the secondary. The Tampa 2 requires a run stuffing SS (like Bob) and speedy corners who can tackle. Many of our corners are not speedy, nor can they tackle very well...anyone see the 175 lbs Lacey try to tackle the 220 lbs Bowe? Our secondary is not fit for Tampa 2; we don't need a change in scheme, we need a change in players and coaching. Coyer needs to go, the only player we have in our secondary that fits Tampa 2 is Bethea, who is great at playing center field

See, this is where I simply disagree. I never understood and still don't understand why you take a Safety out of the safety level to play him in the box but then move your MLB, the one guy you want to be able to stop the run, and put him back in deep zone. The only possible benefit I can see in it is that they get a better value out of a guy like Brackett who isn't a true MLB. Therefore other teams will have little to no use for him but we can use him as a mult-year starter and pay him much less.

[Jason_]

to answer the OP...I fully agree...the tampa 2 should go. Lock it in the cabinet with the wildcat offense that was the flavor of the month for a little while until teams figured out how to beat them. I do think there are definite personnel issues that need to be addressed as well so overall it is a combination of both the scheme and some of the players.

[jskinnz]

See, this is where I simply disagree. I never understood and still don't understand why you take a Safety out of the safety level to play him in the box but then move your MLB, the one guy you want to be able to stop the run, and put him back in deep zone. The only possible benefit I can see in it is that they get a better value out of a guy like Brackett who isn't a true MLB. Therefore other teams will have little to no use for him but we can use him as a mult-year starter and pay him much less.

There is no instance when Angerer plays deep while a safety is in the box. When Angerer is playing the Tampa 2 role, he is covering the deep middle 3rd of the field while the safeties have the outside 3rd's.

[Jason_]

There is no instance when Angerer plays deep while a safety is in the box. When Angerer is playing the Tampa 2 role, he is covering the deep middle 3rd of the field while the safeties have the outside 3rd's.

I should have been more clear...I was referring more to the Colts strategy since Dungy came to have run stuffing safeties but coverage LBs.

[CR91]

I am assuming by agressive, you mean a risk-taking, blitz-happy defense? If that is the case, the Colts don't have anywhere near the personnel to run that type of scheme. You need agreessive, bump & run corners who can cover mana to man. You need LB's who can both cover and blitz. And you need better DT's to take up blockers. Tell me - which of those qualities do the Colts posses?

The fact is the zone coverage the Colts use is designed to hide players and force teams to take the long road v. the quick over the top strike.

The Tampa 2 is not the problem. It is the players within the scheme that are the issue.

we need to use guys and take advantage of what they do best. powers can play bump and run, wheeler can be a great blitzing lber same with hudges. even angerer is a good blitzer. we can keep the ss in the box and let bethea play center field since hes so good at that.

[jskinnz]

we need to use guys and take advantage of what they do best. powers can play bump and run, wheeler can be a great blitzing lber same with hudges. even angerer is a good blitzer. we can keep the ss in the box and let bethea play center field since hes so good at that.

You know those 12 play, 5 minute drive the Colts' D has been giving up? They become 1 play 80 yard TD with that scheme and the Colts personnel. They simply do not have the horses to play it.

There is no lock down corner on the roster, including Powers.

There are huge holes at safety with marginal talent at best.

Hughes does not play LB and proven proficient at nothing.

The only thing the Colts do well is edge rush with Freeney & Mathis. Other than there is talent void on the D roster.

[CR91]

You know those 12 play, 5 minute drive the Colts' D has been giving up? They become 1 play 80 yard TD with that scheme and the Colts personnel. They simply do not have the horses to play it.

There is no lock down corner on the roster, including Powers.

There are huge holes at safety with marginal talent at best.

Hughes does not play LB and proven proficient at nothing.

The only thing the Colts do well is edge rush with Freeney & Mathis. Other than there is talent void on the D roster.

not saying hughes is a lber. but we have to use hm somehow. we cant just stand back and hope our DEs get to the qb.

[jskinnz]

not saying hughes is a lber. but we have to use hm somehow. we cant just stand back and hope our DEs get to the qb.

Well that is nice but does not speak to the inability of the entire defensive roster to play the type of scheme you are wanting them to do.

[21isSuperman]

I should have been more clear...I was referring more to the Colts strategy since Dungy came to have run stuffing safeties but coverage LBs.

Tampa 2 has the MLB drop back into coverage, that's just how the scheme works. It needs an athletic MLB who is good at pass coverage. You need a run stuffing SS because your front 7 is smaller and faster, so their run stopping won't be as good as a bigger LB or DL. Tampa 2 is all about speed.

Personally, I think the Dungy Tampa 2 is outdated, but I'm fine with us using a Tampa 2 base, but throwing in some blitzes, some man-to-man, some press/bump and run. It's good because we have the players for it, but we need to be more aggressive with it

[Jason_]

Tampa 2 has the MLB drop back into coverage, that's just how the scheme works. It needs an athletic MLB who is good at pass coverage. You need a run stuffing SS because your front 7 is smaller and faster, so their run stopping won't be as good as a bigger LB or DL. Tampa 2 is all about speed.

Personally, I think the Dungy Tampa 2 is outdated, but I'm fine with us using a Tampa 2 base, but throwing in some blitzes, some man-to-man, some press/bump and run. It's good because we have the players for it, but we need to be more aggressive with it

No don't get me wrong, I understand all that and know it all too well. I'm just saying I don't understand what possessed Dungy to come up with the idea in the first place. Go with smaller, faster LB's but safeties who are stout against the run. It's like taking everything we ever learned about traditional football and turning it all upside down. No idea if you've ever seen any Jim Gaffigan stand up comedy, but if you've ever seen his skit about holiday traditions...well let's just say that's how I feel about the tampa 2. lol

[CR91]

Well that is nice but does not speak to the inability of the entire defensive roster to play the type of scheme you are wanting them to do.

obviously we need our corners to play more aggressive and in your face instead of giving a cushion for what im suggesting to work.

Edited October 10, 2011 by coltsrule91

[jskinnz]

obviously we need our corners to play more aggressive and in your face instead of giving a cushion for what im suggesting to work.

Your point is not too difficult for me to grasp. What I am saying is that their talent level does not / will not / ever allow them to play in such a manner. They are simply not good enough. If you have not seen enough of Jacob Lacey to determine this, then I don't know what else to say.

[number28]

Tampa 2 is old news in this new decade. Offenses can exploit it. Tampa 2 doesn't stop the run and it's pathetic on 3rd downs with it's prevent defense.

Tampa 2 = Very similar to prevent defense = fail

[CR91]

Your point is not too difficult for me to grasp. What I am saying is that their talent level does not / will not / ever allow them to play in such a manner. They are simply not good enough. If you have not seen enough of Jacob Lacey to determine this, then I don't know what else to say.

oh no i didnt mean our corners right now. obviously what im requesting needs a whole new group of corners for it to work, but it can be done with more man-to-man corners instead of a cover 2 corners.

[CR91]

Tampa 2 is old news in this new decade. Offenses can exploit it. Tampa 2 doesn't stop the run and it's pathetic on 3rd downs with it's prevent defense.

Tampa 2 = Very similar to prevent defense = fail

not true. if you look at how the bears run the cover 2 you would see how dominet it can be, but its because they have the personal to do it and we dont

Edited October 10, 2011 by coltsrule91

[Coltswarriors]

Coyer has to go. I'd be in complete shock if he survived into next year.

[Jason_]

not true. if you look at how the bears run the cover 2 you would see how dominet it can be, but its because they have the personal to do it and we dont

Numbers28 said the tampa 2 is old...not the cover 2. The Bears may use tampa 2 coverage in some rare instances but it's not their base defense like it is the colts.

[number28]

Numbers28 said the tampa 2 is old...not the cover 2. The Bears may use tampa 2 coverage in some rare instances but it's not their base defense like it is the colts.

exactly. Bears run a complex defense. They are not afraid to bring pressure with anybody on the field. They give many looks. Will blitz with CB's and safeties on 3rd downs etc. etc.

Colts defense is one dimentional, Bears are not.

[Rich Cannon]

This whole Tampa 2 scheme isn't working...

I know the whole "If It ain't broke, don't fix it" motto has been at work here for a couple seasons, but the change needs to happen....

What kind of change do you think we need on D to better ourselves for the long run and become a feared force?

It's not necessarily the Tampa 2 that has to go it's the way we are playing it. Way to passive. 5-10 yes off the line every play giving wr's a free release. Any opposing offensive coordinator sees that passive coverage they are simply going to call quick slants like the chiefs did. If we played it like the Giants did and actually blitzed and played man just a tad bit closer to the line once in a while this wouldn't happen

[Rich Cannon]

Coyer has to go. I'd be in complete shock if he survived into next year.

Exactly, if he's not gone then I question our teams intelligence and will to win

[LaughingAtIrsay]

Tampa 2 > Myspace rotfl

[Jason_]

It's not necessarily the Tampa 2 that has to go it's the way we are playing it. Way to passive. 5-10 yes off the line every play giving wr's a free release. Any opposing offensive coordinator sees that passive coverage they are simply going to call quick slants like the chiefs did. If we played it like the Giants did and actually blitzed and played man just a tad bit closer to the line once in a while this wouldn't happen

way too passive is exactly what the tampa 2 coverage is. I think people are confusing the cover 2 with tampa 2 and they're not the same thing. The tampa 2 coverage is a specific zone coverage scheme so you can't run tampa 2 coverage and man to man at the same time, and you can't blitz and play true tampa 2 coverage at the same time either. Yes, tampa bay and chicago both run man and zone coverage and they also blitz, but that's because they mix up their coverages and don't use tampa 2 coverage for the majority of the game like the colts have tendency to do.