I like T Y, but it's going to be a good WR available rnd 1

[mvbighead]

The thing is, outside maybe Patterson and Allen, there aren't any WRs near the top 24 (Austin is a slot guy and I don't see us going down that route for obvious reasons). I genuinely believe a serious value guy will fall to us.

I disagree with OLB though, I think if a good pass-rushing OLB falls to us and he is indeed BPA we will pull the trigger.

For me it's DE or OLB.

 

So we sign Walden at a 14 (or 16) million dollar deal (depending on where you read, so that we can sit him on the bench?  Or we draft a guy in round 1 so that we can sit him on the bench?

 

My biggest problem from Polian's days here is drafting players in the first round who are clearly not able to get a starting spot:

 

Marlin Jackson - Stuck behind Jason David and Nick Harper for 2 seasons

Joseph Addai - Backup to Dominic Rhodes (this pick was less of a waste, as he was used more throughout the season)

Anthony Gonzalez - Slot receiver behind Wayne and Harrison.  Not a bad pick if he remained healthy.

Donald Brown - No need for a backup RB in the 1st round.  Wasted pick.

Jerry Hughes - No need for a backup DE in the 1st round.  Waste pick behind Freeney and Mathis, we could've found their spell guy later in the draft.

Castonzo - His last first round pick was, IMO, a good one.  But it was a bit too late.

 

So we're supposed to shell out roughly 9mil/season to Mathis, 3-4mil/season to Walden, roughly 2mil/season to Hughes, and still bring in an OLB in the 1st?  To me, they see something in Walden to give him that contract.  I think (and hope that) they could be right.  But why use your 1st round pick on a guy who has to share time on the field with someone you are already paying a significant amount (to me, anything above 1 million starts to get significant).  He's not likely to get much more than 20% of the snaps.  You can find a guy like that in the later rounds.

 

Now, DE/DT I still can see, as it'd be nice to have a guy built for the 3-4 line.  Thus far, we have mostly quantity on the Dline, and minimal quality (outside of Redding).  Hopefully Chapman is good to go this season, and he sounds like someone who could've gone much higher if he was healthy.  That being said, there is still a spot opposite Redding that could use a dominant guy.  That'd be a good addition to this team.

 

Personally, I see us looking for our starting WR for the next 10 years.  Keep Hilton as our #3 and keep him fresh.  Slide Wayne into the slot on 3 WR sets, and take a WR in the 1st who give Luck a legitimate receiver who will be here for the next 4 years plus.  Our receiving corps is not scary to anyone right now.  If we want Luck to succeed, he is going to need some legitimate options.  Brazil could be a great player though, and that may throw my guess off, but I still suspect our receiving corps is far from set.

[AntonMcG]

So we sign Walden at a 14 (or 16) million dollar deal (depending on where you read, so that we can sit him on the bench?  Or we draft a guy in round 1 so that we can sit him on the bench?

 

My biggest problem from Polian's days here is drafting players in the first round who are clearly not able to get a starting spot:

 

Marlin Jackson - Stuck behind Jason David and Nick Harper for 2 seasons

Joseph Addai - Backup to Dominic Rhodes (this pick was less of a waste, as he was used more throughout the season)

Anthony Gonzalez - Slot receiver behind Wayne and Harrison.  Not a bad pick if he remained healthy.

Donald Brown - No need for a backup RB in the 1st round.  Wasted pick.

Jerry Hughes - No need for a backup DE in the 1st round.  Waste pick behind Freeney and Mathis, we could've found their spell guy later in the draft.

Castonzo - His last first round pick was, IMO, a good one.  But it was a bit too late.

 

So we're supposed to shell out roughly 9mil/season to Mathis, 3-4mil/season to Walden, roughly 2mil/season to Hughes, and still bring in an OLB in the 1st?  To me, they see something in Walden to give him that contract.  I think (and hope that) they could be right.  But why use your 1st round pick on a guy who has to share time on the field with someone you are already paying a significant amount (to me, anything above 1 million starts to get significant).  He's not likely to get much more than 20% of the snaps.  You can find a guy like that in the later rounds.

 

Now, DE/DT I still can see, as it'd be nice to have a guy built for the 3-4 line.  Thus far, we have mostly quantity on the Dline, and minimal quality (outside of Redding).  Hopefully Chapman is good to go this season, and he sounds like someone who could've gone much higher if he was healthy.  That being said, there is still a spot opposite Redding that could use a dominant guy.  That'd be a good addition to this team.

 

Personally, I see us looking for our starting WR for the next 10 years.  Keep Hilton as our #3 and keep him fresh.  Slide Wayne into the slot on 3 WR sets, and take a WR in the 1st who give Luck a legitimate receiver who will be here for the next 4 years plus.  Our receiving corps is not scary to anyone right now.  If we want Luck to succeed, he is going to need some legitimate options.  Brazil could be a great player though, and that may throw my guess off, but I still suspect our receiving corps is far from set.

If you look at college football and the amount of potentially great WRs who will be declaring next year I think there could be more value there, especially in the first round. There are so many receivers who will be available in the third round of this draft who could be good players.

I must reiterate my point that I just don't see much value in the WRs who will be available in #24, and I don't see us as a team that will reach.

I don't agree with the assertion that a first-round OLB would only play 20% of snaps, or Walden, I think we will be more balanced and versatile than that, similar to the Ravens, who had 4 quality OLBs, each of whom brought different things to the table. I think this is a great year for OLB's and if one of them fell to us we should get him. And there is a strong possibility that this is Mathis' lat year with us.

[Wesk7]

Can you expand?  We're running a different system this year.

Yea I forgot we were switching to a WCO for a sec. And Avery is a Chief now. Still don't want this guy but if he comes cheap enough maybe he could turn into something. It's not like he had a good qb throwing him the ball in Oakland. I don't think he is on the Colts radar though.

[mvbighead]

If you look at college football and the amount of potentially great WRs who will be declaring next year I think there could be more value there, especially in the first round. There are so many receivers who will be available in the third round of this draft who could be good players.

I must reiterate my point that I just don't see much value in the WRs who will be available in #24, and I don't see us as a team that will reach.

I don't agree with the assertion that a first-round OLB would only play 20% of snaps, or Walden, I think we will be more balanced and versatile than that, similar to the Ravens, who had 4 quality OLBs, each of whom brought different things to the table. I think this is a great year for OLB's and if one of them fell to us we should get him. And there is a strong possibility that this is Mathis' lat year with us.

 

Strong possibility?  Says who?  He's slated to make 7 million this year (4 salary + 3 roster bonus) and 5 next year (3 salary + 2 roster bonus) and then back to 7 in 2015 (4 salary + 3 roster bonus).

 

As for 20%, we have 3 LBs that are being paid above league minimum.  And if memory serves, Sidburry is more a 3-4 OLB type than a 3-4 DE (he's listed as DE), so we actually have 4.  And we're going to draft another in the 1st round?

 

If anything, he'd be cut this year or in 2015.  But next year is small in comparison.  I'd say Mathis is with us for at least the next 2 seasons.  If he stays healthy and continues to contribute like he has been, he could even finish out his contract here.

 

As for value... I'm simply using the guide on NFL.com as far as their grades:

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/tracker#dt-tabs:dt-by-grade

 

They have 4 or more WRs peppered around 15-25, which means that we'll probably have 2+ solid options that pop up when the Colts are on the clock.  And there is only one OLB graded that high in Jarvis Jones.

 

I just don't see us taking another OLB when we have 1 great one, 1 guy they apparently believe in enough to sign for 4/14, a former 1st rounder, and another guy with potential.  Compared to wide receivers where we have a 34 year old former first rounder who is still quite good, a 3rd rounder who has shown some excellent flashes, a 6th rounder with limited playing time, and a practice squad player.  We just don't have enough solid receivers, and there could easily be a good one sitting at #24.

 

Again, DE is another story, and this guy has us taking Datone Jones:

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/mock-drafts/josh-norris/165601?pickId=2539325

 

This I could see as a good pick as well, as it fills a need.  But OLB, as of today, is no longer a position in which we lack quality depth.  We have 3 guys with potential, and one guy who is locked in as one of our best pass rushers.  What am I missing about our OLB position that dictates we need one in the 1st?

[Narcosys]

Because the CB is the least important position in a 3/4 Defense...and we have bigger needs on our Defense AND our Offensive line.

Well since or CB's need to be able to be play man, I think it's very important in the 3-4 scheme. LB's have each other while CB's are out on their own. Maybe a safety back up but only to one. OL and D is being addressed in FA. Plus with returning injuries, it makes sense to draft a CB to give competition and depth. Who are our CB's? Davis, Toler, butler, powers, and Williams. Powers needs to be replaced, I have never really liked him to much and Toler is going to just as rookie in our scheme as a draft pick. And is t powers possibly leaving? If so all the more reason to draft a top CB.

[AntonMcG]

Strong possibility?  Says who?  He's slated to make 7 million this year (4 salary + 3 roster bonus) and 5 next year (3 salary + 2 roster bonus) and then back to 7 in 2015 (4 salary + 3 roster bonus).

 

As for 20%, we have 3 LBs that are being paid above league minimum.  And if memory serves, Sidburry is more a 3-4 OLB type than a 3-4 DE (he's listed as DE), so we actually have 4.  And we're going to draft another in the 1st round?

 

If anything, he'd be cut this year or in 2015.  But next year is small in comparison.  I'd say Mathis is with us for at least the next 2 seasons.  If he stays healthy and continues to contribute like he has been, he could even finish out his contract here.

 

As for value... I'm simply using the guide on NFL.com as far as their grades:

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/tracker#dt-tabs:dt-by-grade

 

They have 4 or more WRs peppered around 15-25, which means that we'll probably have 2+ solid options that pop up when the Colts are on the clock.  And there is only one OLB graded that high in Jarvis Jones.

 

I just don't see us taking another OLB when we have 1 great one, 1 guy they apparently believe in enough to sign for 4/14, a former 1st rounder, and another guy with potential.  Compared to wide receivers where we have a 34 year old former first rounder who is still quite good, a 3rd rounder who has shown some excellent flashes, a 6th rounder with limited playing time, and a practice squad player.  We just don't have enough solid receivers, and there could easily be a good one sitting at #24.

 

Again, DE is another story, and this guy has us taking Datone Jones:

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/mock-drafts/josh-norris/165601?pickId=2539325

 

This I could see as a good pick as well, as it fills a need.  But OLB, as of today, is no longer a position in which we lack quality depth.  We have 3 guys with potential, and one guy who is locked in as one of our best pass rushers.  What am I missing about our OLB position that dictates we need one in the 1st?

I never said it was a need that dictates we must take one in the first, if you read what I said, I made it clear that I think a good OLB will fall to use and could be BPA, which apparently is our draft strategy. Now obviously BPA is only relevant to positions would think could be improved, and positions that are considered worthy of first round status...

I disagree that we have any great OLB's, Mathis did not set the world alight in the role last year and will more than likely attract more double-teams this year. I should have worded it 'I strongly believe' he may not be here next year, because we could be outperformed and I doubt he is willing to sit.

The other guys have to prove they are worthy of a role, and have yet to do so. If a top #15 prospect falls to 24, and he happens to be an OLB, I'd be fairly confident we go for him. Teams will reach for WRs in the first, I don't think we will. Austin is a slot guy, Patterson and Allen seem to be projected to go before us... going by the analysts whose opinions I respect, there is no value outside of that at #24.

[USAFHoosier]

Hunter or Hopkins at #24 is possible.  Depends how the rest of FA goes and how the draft plays out.  Both guys have tons of potential.  Darick Rodgers could be there in the 3rd also.

[funktacious2]

The fact of whether or not we "need" a wide receiver shouldn't even be a question. Wayne is entering is mid 30's. Hilton is, as Grigson has said, a "peanut". And none of the other guys on the team have shown enough to definitely show they would be quality starters, though Brazill had some nice flashes. And why would the Colts be interested in Greg Jennings if WR wasn't an need.

 

The question is should we spend a 1st round on one. Well had we resigned Avery I would have rather we didn't, but I'm on the fence. The issue for isn't spending a 1st on the position, but of not knowing who's worth it of who will be avialble. I'd be happy with Patterson, but he'll be gone, and Tavon Austin seems like an interesting option, but I'm not sold on him, Woods, Hunter, or Hopkins. What I do know is the Grigson showed success last year in finding WR talent in rounds 3 and beyond. Perhaps a solid option will arise  in round 3 or 4?

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Well since or CB's need to be able to be play man, I think it's very important in the 3-4 scheme.

 

I don't care.

 

 

Powers needs to be replaced

 

He was, yesterday.

[RGIII]

I'm still a firm believer that the only smart strategy is drafting based on a mix of need and BPA (i.e., ALWAYS take one of the best available at your draft spot but prioritize need - if you have two players in the same tier, take the one that fills the biggest need or if the BPA is at a position you're loaded at strongly consider trading back so that you can address more positions and get better value).  You guys don't need a WR like you need... well, just about everything but QB, TE, and maybe RB.  WR will become a need in the short term, for sure, but it is not a dire need quite yet.

 

If a great WR falls into your lap then you take him but if there are similar talents available at other positions then you HAVE to pass if you can help shore up your o-line, d-line, pass rush, or secondary.  I think Luck proved that he's a good enough QB to make plenty of plays even without A+ talent across the board at WR.  He'd be helped more by actually having a pocket to throw from consistently or having a defense that can get the ball back in his hands in good field position more often via turnovers.

 

You'll understand if I do not care to have this conversation AGAIN with someone who does not know what they're talking about and is not humble enough to acknowledge it.

 

Hmmmm... I believe that makes me the most unpopular person who actually qualifies to comment on your post, then.

 

Because the CB is the least important position in a 3/4 Defense...and we have bigger needs on our Defense AND our Offensive line.

 

The former simply isn't true.  The importance of a given position is very scheme dependent and the 3-4 is by no means a scheme in and of itself.  An extremely aggressive, man-heavy scheme is going to need some pretty high-grade corners.  A press-heavy, Cover 2-heavy zone scheme can get away with corners with a very limited but specialized skillset.  You also have to consider that there are multiple ways to achieve the same overall effect even within the same scheme.  If your front seven is very good at defending the run and mediocre at rushing the passer, investing in strengthening the secondary will be more impactful than it would be for a team that gets pressure like gangbusters.  You can also get away with weaker cornerback play if you have excellent safeties or vice versa.

 

At the end of the day you just can't realistically limit yourself with sweeping statements like "we don't need x position in this scheme, we need y".  Sometimes x will have the much bigger impact (if you can find the right player), even if you have more limited options for y as a result.

[mvbighead]

I never said it was a need that dictates we must take one in the first, if you read what I said, I made it clear that I think a good OLB will fall to use and could be BPA, which apparently is our draft strategy. Now obviously BPA is only relevant to positions would think could be improved, and positions that are considered worthy of first round status...

I disagree that we have any great OLB's, Mathis did not set the world alight in the role last year and will more than likely attract more double-teams this year. I should have worded it 'I strongly believe' he may not be here next year, because we could be outperformed and I doubt he is willing to sit.

The other guys have to prove they are worthy of a role, and have yet to do so. If a top #15 prospect falls to 24, and he happens to be an OLB, I'd be fairly confident we go for him. Teams will reach for WRs in the first, I don't think we will. Austin is a slot guy, Patterson and Allen seem to be projected to go before us... going by the analysts whose opinions I respect, there is no value outside of that at #24.

 

All teams had to account for from a pass rush perspective was Mathis.  Freeney didn't do much.  We now have 3 guys that can all vie for that spot opposite Mathis, who had 8 sacks last season.

 

As for Mathis being outperformed... that's hilarious.  He's been one of the few former Colt defenders who actually made the switch quite well.  There is little to no chance he sits unless injured.  If he is over taken at his spot, it will be because of injury or because he is cut from the roster.  He has simply never been a player who slacked off and let someone beat him out of his spot.

 

The other guys, Walden most specifically, is being paid as a someone who will get legitimate field time.  You don't pay a guy 3-4 million a season to try and draft his replacement in the 1st round.  Also, the article someone else gave suggested the Packers were starting to get pretty high on this guy, so we may have found a steal with him.  If nothing else, Grigson seems very high on him, and I doubt he'd spend Irsay's money in triplicate in one position.

 

Sidburry is depth, IMO, and Hughes is someone with promise that has always been stuck behind someone else.

 

My biggest issue now is seeing 4-5 receivers slated around 20-30, and 0 OLB/(4-3) DE types that fit what you're talking about.  The mock I posted was updated today, and reflects current needs.  Many have been thinking corner with our first pick, but we now have Davis, Toller, and Butler all locked in for next season.  As I've suggested, Grigson has added two players for our OLB role, one who was paid a fair sum in Walden.

 

We still have not replaced Avery or added any significant receiver via FA.

 

Whether you agree with analysts or not, many have WRs there when we pick that wouldn't be considered reaches.  (A reach, to me, is someone selected 15+ spots ahead of when they should be.)  The countless reports I've read suggest the following:

 

1. Austin - Likely to be gone
2. Patterson - Likely to be gone
3. Hopkins
4. Allen
5. Patton
6. Williams
7. Woods

The remaining 5 above are all projected to be there around our pick, or thereabouts.  All of them grade in the top 35 of players available.  We pick at 24.  Even if we grabbed Woods who has the lowest grade of the remaining 5, it still isn't a reach.  And, based on what Grigson gave us through the draft last season, I'd suspect if he has a feeling about any one of them, he's probably somewhat likely to be right.

 

So tell me, how is it you don't have any receiver dropping to us at #24, when there are at least 5 guys that could could in the 10 picks behind us?  Many of the OLBs are likely to be picked up before we select, as they're rated up there.  If the perfect guy falls, i could see Grigson going for it.  I just don't think he's planning on it considering what he's been doing in FA.

 

Just look at last season.  We drafted a QB, and didn't bring in a threat to compete for the starting position.  Two TEs, with no veteran to threaten the starting position.  A WR with a legitimate shot to contribute as our #3.  A RB with a legitimate shot to see carries behind Brown.

 

So you're telling me that we're bound set and determined to take an OLB that falls to us, and won't in the slightest consider a WR to replace Avery?  We're so thin at WR right now, it's scary.  But I appreciate Grigson not dropping 10mil/season on Jennings or Wallace as it wouldn't give him the flexibility to add the depth and potential that he has with these "lesser" signings.

[Narcosys]

I don't care.

So you don't care if we don't have quality cb's that can play man like we're supposed to? So your ignoring an important factor to our defense and picking and choosing what information you want to make your argument? Your argument is then invalid, or in other words, you can't be taken seriously.

He

was, yesterday.

So we lost Vaughn and are replacing powers for Toler, lose 2 and gain 1. I'm no mathematician, but something's off there.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

So you don't care if we don't have quality cb's that can play man like we're supposed to?

 

No rocketscience. I don't care what you think.

 

So we lost Vaughn...

 

...we did not lose Vaughn.

 

Anyway, not even counting Vaughn we already have 3 quality CBs that can play Man like they're supposed to.

 

I get it, you're another uninformed cornerbackite who hates reality. We've got a handful of y'all here perpetually engaged in rants against the truth; CB is the least important position in both the 3/4 AND 4/3 Defenses. I'm sorry it offends your unread opinion.

[mvbighead]

I'm still a firm believer that the only smart strategy is drafting based on a mix of need and BPA (i.e., ALWAYS take one of the best available at your draft spot but prioritize need - if you have two players in the same tier, take the one that fills the biggest need or if the BPA is at a position you're loaded at strongly consider trading back so that you can address more positions and get better value).  You guys don't need a WR like you need... well, just about everything but QB, TE, and maybe RB.  WR will become a need in the short term, for sure, but it is not a dire need quite yet.

 

If a great WR falls into your lap then you take him but if there are similar talents available at other positions then you HAVE to pass if you can help shore up your o-line, d-line, pass rush, or secondary.  I think Luck proved that he's a good enough QB to make plenty of plays even without A+ talent across the board at WR.  He'd be helped more by actually having a pocket to throw from consistently or having a defense that can get the ball back in his hands in good field position more often via turnovers.

 

Oline - Castonzo, Johnson, Satele, McGlynn/Reitz/Anderson, Cherilus

C and G are the two remaining spots that COULD see an upgrade

 

D-Line - Redding, McKinney/Chapman,??? - One need there, so I can see D line

 

Pass rush - Mathis, Hughes, Walden, Sidburry, - Hughes has not been great, but has been improving in this defense.  Walden seems to be someone they are high on.  Sidburry is depth, IMO.

 

Secondary - Davis, Toller, Butler, Bethea, Zbikowski/Landry/Pollard - Landy and Pollard are FA that could be had, and Landry they are already talking with.  We traded for and are high on Davis.  They signed Toller to a good deal, and keep a starter from last season for the nickel.  Our secondary should be alright for next year, and all of them are young enough to develop a bit with Pagano.

 

Wide receiver - Wayne, Hilton, Brazill, Whalen - Wayne falls into a similar boat as Mathis, but is 2 years older.  Hilton is our up and comer, but his is a small guy and is not someone we send over the middle.  Brazill and Whalen are unknowns.

 

If a Ware type of player falls that Grigson is infatuated with, I could see it.  But how we are fine enough at WR just because of Luck escapes me.  Remember when Tom Brady threw 50+ TDs?  It wasn't with Branch, Lloyd, and Welker.  It was with Moss, Welker, Gronkowski, Hernandez, etc.  Our QB situation improves when his targets improve.  I'm sure PM would've been fine with some scrubs, but he was much better with Harrison, Wayne, Stokley, and Clark.  At this point, we have Wayne who is the 2nd oldest player on our roster, and then Hilton who is the smallest player on our roster.  Neither of those two are locks to play every offensive snap for 16 games next season.  Wayne is as durable as they come, but eventually, age will take its toll.

 

Long story short, we have 2 receivers for next year that we can count on, but our 3rd is a complete question at this point.  The other positions you mentioned have been addressed in FA, aside from DE.

[chad72]

I do think we draft a future #2 for the outside this year and a true #1 next year to be under the tutelage of Wayne for 1 last year before Wayne hangs it up.

 

I can see a guy like Da'Rick Rogers that we may move up to top of round 3 or something to get as a potential #2 for playing in the outside. This is a draft where round 2 will have a plethora of talented players and I am hoping we trade down honestly to pick up a 2nd and a 3rd at the top of each round.

[Dustin]

Oline - Castonzo, Johnson, Satele, McGlynn/Reitz/Anderson, Cherilus

C and G are the two remaining spots that COULD see an upgrade

 

D-Line - Redding, McKinney/Chapman,??? - One need there, so I can see D line

 

Pass rush - Mathis, Hughes, Walden, Sidburry, - Hughes has not been great, but has been improving in this defense.  Walden seems to be someone they are high on.  Sidburry is depth, IMO.

 

Secondary - Davis, Toller, Butler, Bethea, Zbikowski/Landry/Pollard - Landy and Pollard are FA that could be had, and Landry they are already talking with.  We traded for and are high on Davis.  They signed Toller to a good deal, and keep a starter from last season for the nickel.  Our secondary should be alright for next year, and all of them are young enough to develop a bit with Pagano.

 

Wide receiver - Wayne, Hilton, Brazill, Whalen - Wayne falls into a similar boat as Mathis, but is 2 years older.  Hilton is our up and comer, but his is a small guy and is not someone we send over the middle.  Brazill and Whalen are unknowns.

 

If a Ware type of player falls that Grigson is infatuated with, I could see it.  But how we are fine enough at WR just because of Luck escapes me.  Remember when Tom Brady threw 50+ TDs?  It wasn't with Branch, Lloyd, and Welker.  It was with Moss, Welker, Gronkowski, Hernandez, etc.  Our QB situation improves when his targets improve.  I'm sure PM would've been fine with some scrubs, but he was much better with Harrison, Wayne, Stokley, and Clark.  At this point, we have Wayne who is the 2nd oldest player on our roster, and then Hilton who is the smallest player on our roster.  Neither of those two are locks to play every offensive snap for 16 games next season.  Wayne is as durable as they come, but eventually, age will take its toll.

 

Long story short, we have 2 receivers for next year that we can count on, but our 3rd is a complete question at this point.  The other positions you mentioned have been addressed in FA, aside from DE.

 

Gronkowski and Hernandez weren't on the team, but I get your point.

[mvbighead]

So you don't care if we don't have quality cb's that can play man like we're supposed to? So your ignoring an important factor to our defense and picking and choosing what information you want to make your argument? Your argument is then invalid, or in other words, you can't be taken seriously.

So we lost Vaughn and are replacing powers for Toler, lose 2 and gain 1. I'm no mathematician, but something's off there.

 

Last I checked, Vaughn was our #4/#5 guy.  We can find that guy in the 3rd rounds and beyond.

 

Davis - Most likely our #1 guy.

Toler - Most likely our #2 guy.

Butler - Most likely our Nickel guy.

 

Beyond the top 3, the remaining #4 and #5 can come from just about anywhere, but if you plan on drafting one in the first, bringing in Toler at 15mil/3 seasons seems like a hilariously stupid move.

 

Also, Ladrius Webb was developed into a solid #1 corner... he was drafted in the 3rd round.

 

So, what is the problem?  We didn't replace our stop-gap #4 backup corner?  Next you're going to tell me that we need a 2 more kickers so we can have Vinatieri's backup and Vinatieri's backup's backup.

[mvbighead]

Gronkowski and Hernandez weren't on the team, but I get your point.

 

AH, true, true.  I went back a bit too far there.

[Narcosys]

No rocketscience. I don't care what you think.

We already have 3 quality CBs that can play Man like they're supposed to.

I get it, you're another uninformed cornerbackite who hates reality. We've got a handful of y'all here perpetually engaged in rants against the truth; CB is the least important position in both the 3/4 AND 4/3 Defenses. I'm sorry it offends your unread opinion.

I'm not sure what a cornerbackite is, but everything your saying is just as much as mine is. I say a CB for depth because if Toler doesn't pan out, and butler has been burnt covering man on the better WR's (Torrey smith, Anquan Boldin abused him). Then we need another for back up purposes and injury replacement.

Furthermore if you don't care about others opinios why are you even on this forum, seems like it is to just make others believe your opinions are facts and to attack Others, Nice tolerance bro. I

[Narcosys]

Last I checked, Vaughn was our #4/#5 guy. We can find that guy in the 3rd rounds and beyond.

Davis - Most likely our #1 guy.

Toler - Most likely our #2 guy.

Butler - Most likely our Nickel guy.

Beyond the top 3, the remaining #4 and #5 can come from just about anywhere, but if you plan on drafting one in the first, bringing in Toler at 15mil/3 seasons seems like a hilariously stupid move.

Also, Ladrius Webb was developed into a solid #1 corner... he was drafted in the 3rd round.

So, what is the problem? We didn't replace our stop-gap #4 backup corner? Next you're going to tell me that we need a 2 more kickers so we can have Vinatieri's backup and Vinatieri's backup's backup.

When did I say 1st round? But only having currently 3 corners is a little concerning to me.

[mvbighead]

When did I say 1st round? But only having currently 3 corners is a little concerning to me.

 

Concerning???  Seriously?  How far away is the preseason right now?

 

We have a draft, and FA started yesterday.  At this point, I am stoked about our CB group, Toler is an improvement over Powers by most accounts.  We have several months to acquire 2 more corners.

 

Do you think we're going to start he preseason with just the three guys we have now?  At this point, the thing to be concerned with is the areas on the team that are heavily without talent.  Corner is now the furthest thing from that (due to the signing of Toler).  Why be concerned over lack of depth when the players needed for depth we can go about getting in any number of ways.  Heck, Vaughn and Butler were afterthoughts when we got them.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

I'm not sure what a cornerbackite is...

 

You are. Because inspite of reality regarding our situation specifically at CB and the situation generally with CBs, you rail in support of an opinion that is incorrect.

 

Furthermore if you don't care about others opinios why are you even on this forum...

 

Because like me, there are many here with "informed" opinions. I enjoy those very much. As it stands right now, yours is not one of them. But, I was there too.

 

Nice tolerance bro.

 

You run with tolerance...I'll stick with the Truth.

[Narcosys]

Concerning??? Seriously? How far away is the preseason right now?

We have a draft, and FA started yesterday. At this point, I am stoked about our CB group, Toler is an improvement over Powers by most accounts. We have several months to acquire 2 more corners.

Do you think we're going to start he preseason with just the three guys we have now? At this point, the thing to be concerned with is the areas on the team that are heavily without talent. Corner is now the furthest thing from that (due to the signing of Toler). Why be concerned over lack of depth when the players needed for depth we can go about getting in any number of ways. Heck, Vaughn and Butler were afterthoughts when we got them.

.... I don't get it. First you condemn people for saying to draft a CB or for getting another in FA , but then turn around and say that we have those same bad ideas to strengthen our CB corp. so which is it? Get another CB or not because you literally contradicted yourself.

[mvbighead]

.... I don't get it. First you condemn people for saying to draft a CB or for getting another in FA , but then turn around and say that we have those same bad ideas to strengthen our CB corp. so which is it? Get another CB or not because you literally contradicted yourself.

 

What in the sam hill are you talking about?  I am not advocating using a FIRST round selection on CB.  I also would not advocate using our THIRD round selection as I feel that is still too early.  Beyond that, we absolutely should have 5 (perhaps 6) corners on our roster.

 

So, whether they sign a guy today, tomorrow, next month, in the draft, or whenever is purely of no concern.  They simply don't need to throw out any big money deal (2 million +/season) for a #4 and #5.  I have not contradicted anything I've said.  I simply have pointed out that we have a solid group of 3 corners, and we don't have an urgent need for a capable starter at the position.  Just depth.

[Dr. T]

My guess is that we will pick a quality cover corner in the first round (if one is still available), because there should be plenty of good WRs still around in round 3 or later, including perhaps:

Aaron Dobson from Marshall (6'3, 203) great hands

Da'Rick Rogers from Tenn Tech (6'2, 206) a Julio Jones clone

Conner Vernon from Duke (6'0, 193) a Austin Collie clone

Aaron Mellette from Elon (6'3, 216) small school stud with 3047 yards and 30 TDs the past two seasons

Rodney Smith from Fl State (6'5, 219) can you say jump ball?

just to name a few.

[Narcosys]

You are. Because inspite of reality regarding our situation specifically at CB and the situation generally with CBs, you rail in support of an opinion that is incorrect.

Because like me, there are many here with "informed" opinions. I enjoy those very much. As it stands right now, yours is not one of them. But, I was there too.

You run with tolerance...I'll stick with the Truth.

What exactly are you thinking shoukd be the positions that should be filled that hasn't already been addressed?

Unless you work in the FO, truth is everything out your mouth is an opinion. Railing, really? I said one thing. I don't consider that railing. I think that was actually my first post on it, and you act like Richard Sherman.

[mvbighead]

.... I don't get it. First you condemn people for saying to draft a CB or for getting another in FA , but then turn around and say that we have those same bad ideas to strengthen our CB corp. so which is it? Get another CB or not because you literally contradicted yourself.

 

BTW, I looked back through my posts.  Not seeing where I condemned the idea of drafting a CB in the 2013 draft.

[mvbighead]

My guess is that we will pick a quality cover corner in the first round (if one is still available), because there should be plenty of good WRs still around in round 3 or later, including perhaps:

Aaron Dobson from Marshall (6'3, 203) great hands

Da'Rick Rogers from Tenn Tech (6'2, 206) a Julio Jones clone

Conner Vernon from Duke (6'0, 193) a Austin Collie clone

Aaron Mellette from Elon (6'3, 216) small school stud with 3047 yards and 30 TDs the past two seasons

Rodney Smith from Fl State (6'5, 219) can you say jump ball?

just to name a few.

 

Why do you want us to use a 1st round selection on a guy who will most likely see time as the #4 option at CB.

[Narcosys]

What in the sam hill are you talking about? I am not advocating using a FIRST round selection on CB. I also would not advocate using our THIRD round selection as I feel that is still too early. Beyond that, we absolutely should have 5 (perhaps 6) corners on our roster.

So, whether they sign a guy today, tomorrow, next month, in the draft, or whenever is purely of no concern. They simply don't need to throw out any big money deal (2 million +/season) for a #4 and #5. I have not contradicted anything I've said. I simply have pointed out that we have a solid group of 3 corners, and we don't have an urgent need for a capable starter at the position. Just depth.

I never said first either, you assumed. See where assuming makes an A out of you not me? And I also never said putting up big money. I merely was stating that the CB was more important than what Mr. Casserly was saying.

And here's what you said.

"but if you plan on drafting one in the first, bringing in Toler at 15mil/3 seasons seems like a hilariously stupid move."

Maybe I misunderstood.

[Dr. T]

Why do you want us to use a 1st round selection on a guy who will most likely see time as the #4 option at CB.

If a stud cover corner drops and is BPA at #24 (like Rhodes or Trufant), I think Grigs will pull the trigger. With injuries in the NFL, the #4 CB often becomes the #2 CB pretty fast.

[mvbighead]

I never said first either, you assumed. See where assuming makes an A out of you not me? And I also never said putting up big money. I merely was stating that the CB was more important than what Mr. Casserly was saying.

And here's what you said.

"but if you plan on drafting one in the first, bringing in Toler at 15mil/3 seasons seems like a hilariously stupid move."

Maybe I misunderstood.

 

Drafting one in the first <- FIRST round.

 

I know we'll need depth, and as Casserly correctly pointed out, we still have Vaughn.  That leaves 1 spot wide open.  I'm ok with Vaughn at #4, I'd think #5 could be later draft selection or UDFA to have Pagano develop.  Based on who falls, etc.

[Narcosys]

Drafting one in the first <- FIRST round.

I know we'll need depth, and as Casserly correctly pointed out, we still have Vaughn. That leaves 1 spot wide open. I'm ok with Vaughn at #4, I'd think #5 could be later draft selection or UDFA to have Pagano develop. Based on who falls, etc.

Makes sense. I know what first meant but thought you were killing the idea of getting another at all. I think we can do better than Vaughn however.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

What exactly are you thinking shoukd be the positions that should be filled that hasn't already been addressed?

 

Stop asking me questions without addressing your errors.

 

 

Unless you work in the FO, truth is everything out your mouth is an opinion.

 

Yes, I know. I just acknowledged that in my previous post. The difference between yours and mine is that mine is an informed opinion and yours is not.

[mvbighead]

If a stud cover corner drops and is BPA at #24 (like Rhodes or Trufant), I think Grigs will pull the trigger. With injuries in the NFL, the #4 CB often becomes the #2 CB pretty fast.

 

We had injury issues with Mathis and Freeney.  We drafted their "replacement" in the first round (Hughes).  That didn't work out very well for us.

 

All I am getting at is we have legitimate needs at DE and WR.  We don't have an excess of quality guys in either spot.  We have aging veterans in Wayne and Redding.  One promising young guy in Hilton.  And a bunch of depth type players or players drafted for a different scheme.

 

At CB, we traded a #2 for Davis.  We signed Toler at 5mil/season, and we retained Butler who played fairly well for us as a #2 last season.

 

I'd say that, other than adding one more promising depth guy later in the draft, we're pretty well set at CB, IMO.  I just don't see value in drafting a CB in round 1 just so we can hope to see him play when a starter goes down.

[mvbighead]

Makes sense. I know what first meant but thought you were killing the idea of getting another at all. I think we can do better than Vaughn however.

 

Oh, I think we can do better than Vaughn as well.  And given that Ladarius Webb was a 3rd rounder, I could easily see us grabbing a guy then to develop.  I just think the first in the wrong place to address depth at CB when we hand selected 2 guys, and fell luckily onto someone who needed to establish himself (Butler).

[Dr. T]

We had injury issues with Mathis and Freeney.  We drafted their "replacement" in the first round (Hughes).  That didn't work out very well for us.

 

All I am getting at is we have legitimate needs at DE and WR.  We don't have an excess of quality guys in either spot.  We have aging veterans in Wayne and Redding.  One promising young guy in Hilton.  And a bunch of depth type players or players drafted for a different scheme.

 

At CB, we traded a #2 for Davis.  We signed Toler at 5mil/season, and we retained Butler who played fairly well for us as a #2 last season.

 

I'd say that, other than adding one more promising depth guy later in the draft, we're pretty well set at CB, IMO.  I just don't see value in drafting a CB in round 1 just so we can hope to see him play when a starter goes down.

You have a very good point and we do need another quality WR. I can't wait to see what happens.

[RGIII]

Remember when Tom Brady threw 50+ TDs?  It wasn't with Branch, Lloyd, and Welker.  It was with Moss, Welker, Gronkowski, Hernandez, etc.  Our QB situation improves when his targets improve.

 

Brady did it with Moss, Welker, and Stallworth.  That's pretty similar to what you guys had last year with Wayne, Hilton, and Avery and the results (not the stats) were no better than when Brady had worse receivers.  Again, WR will be a need for you in the next year or two but right now it takes a backseat to your interior OL, DL, and pass rush needs.  I also wouldn't take a receiver if a better S or CB prospect is available given what has transpired so far in the offseason.

 

Weapons are important on offense but do I really need to remind you just how well Brady and Manning have done in the postseason on teams with questionable defenses?  You guys would be wise not to make the same mistakes Polian did with roster management.

[Narcosys]

Stop asking me questions without addressing your errors.

Yes, I know. I just acknowledged that in my previous post. The difference between yours and mine is that mine is an informed opinion and yours is not.

Dude I'm done discussing this with a belligerent *. Sure you win bro, I'm completely stupid in all this and have not been looking at this with an informed opinion. Which is an oxymoron, now cheer up, calm down, and express your "informed" opinions to someone else.

[Narcosys]

Oh, I think we can do better than Vaughn as well. And given that Ladarius Webb was a 3rd rounder, I could easily see us grabbing a guy then to develop. I just think the first in the wrong place to address depth at CB when we hand selected 2 guys, and fell luckily onto someone who needed to establish himself (Butler).

Good call, since we got Toler I completely agree. Had we not, it could be up in the air, but also with all our FA pickups, what do we really need? Safety? WR? RB? All positions seem adequately filled right now to me. Not saying there aren't positions that couldn't use improvement, but we can do well with what we have.

[AntonMcG]

All teams had to account for from a pass rush perspective was Mathis.  Freeney didn't do much.  We now have 3 guys that can all vie for that spot opposite Mathis, who had 8 sacks last season.

 

As for Mathis being outperformed... that's hilarious.  He's been one of the few former Colt defenders who actually made the switch quite well.  There is little to no chance he sits unless injured.  If he is over taken at his spot, it will be because of injury or because he is cut from the roster.  He has simply never been a player who slacked off and let someone beat him out of his spot.

 

The other guys, Walden most specifically, is being paid as a someone who will get legitimate field time.  You don't pay a guy 3-4 million a season to try and draft his replacement in the 1st round.  Also, the article someone else gave suggested the Packers were starting to get pretty high on this guy, so we may have found a steal with him.  If nothing else, Grigson seems very high on him, and I doubt he'd spend Irsay's money in triplicate in one position.

 

Sidburry is depth, IMO, and Hughes is someone with promise that has always been stuck behind someone else.

 

My biggest issue now is seeing 4-5 receivers slated around 20-30, and 0 OLB/(4-3) DE types that fit what you're talking about.  The mock I posted was updated today, and reflects current needs.  Many have been thinking corner with our first pick, but we now have Davis, Toller, and Butler all locked in for next season.  As I've suggested, Grigson has added two players for our OLB role, one who was paid a fair sum in Walden.

 

We still have not replaced Avery or added any significant receiver via FA.

 

Whether you agree with analysts or not, many have WRs there when we pick that wouldn't be considered reaches.  (A reach, to me, is someone selected 15+ spots ahead of when they should be.)  The countless reports I've read suggest the following:

• Austin - Likely to be gone
• Patterson - Likely to be gone
• Hopkins
• Allen
• Patton
• Williams
• Woods

The remaining 5 above are all projected to be there around our pick, or thereabouts.  All of them grade in the top 35 of players available.  We pick at 24.  Even if we grabbed Woods who has the lowest grade of the remaining 5, it still isn't a reach.  And, based on what Grigson gave us through the draft last season, I'd suspect if he has a feeling about any one of them, he's probably somewhat likely to be right.

 

So tell me, how is it you don't have any receiver dropping to us at #24, when there are at least 5 guys that could could in the 10 picks behind us?  Many of the OLBs are likely to be picked up before we select, as they're rated up there.  If the perfect guy falls, i could see Grigson going for it.  I just don't think he's planning on it considering what he's been doing in FA.

 

Just look at last season.  We drafted a QB, and didn't bring in a threat to compete for the starting position.  Two TEs, with no veteran to threaten the starting position.  A WR with a legitimate shot to contribute as our #3.  A RB with a legitimate shot to see carries behind Brown.

 

So you're telling me that we're bound set and determined to take an OLB that falls to us, and won't in the slightest consider a WR to replace Avery?  We're so thin at WR right now, it's scary.  But I appreciate Grigson not dropping 10mil/season on Jennings or Wallace as it wouldn't give him the flexibility to add the depth and potential that he has with these "lesser" signings.

My God, are you allergic to reading or do you just not know the concept of BPA? My point... for the third time now... is that if an OLB falls to us, there is a strong possibility that he will be BPA, because the top ones are projected higher, and silly team will continue to reach, and average QBs will be drafted in the first round, it what happens every year. The majority of mocks from people I respect, who are usually right, have an OLB coming our length.

Walden, who I hope is a success, is guaranteed $4million of that contract, he is an experiment but one that could very well pay off, as for your article, I saw that too, and I can also show you plenty more that portray him as horrible, I doubt Grigson would sign him if that was the case, but I don't think he is a cert to perform. Do we have a top rated pass-rushing OLB? Mathis is 32, production is dropping, and he has played second fiddle his entire career while the other guy got the double team attention, including last season. I like him, but time will catch up with him and we need a long-term replacement, and I like the guys that could be available in this draft to be that replacement. And why is it so laughable for a 32 year old (who you seem to think is of Demarcus Ware quality) to be out-produced? And by out-produced, I mean in the scenario where we bring in an OLB in the first, I should have made that clear. Jerry Hughes is distinctly average and has yet to impress given his draft position.

OLB is the premium position in modern 3-4 schemes, it is hugely important. Mathis needs to be replaced the same way Reggie needs to be replaced. Did you watch him last year? Because he just didn't blow me away.

Now to the WRs... the fact that you only count someone who is projected +15 spots as a reach is laughable, especially in the first round, +5 maybe, but +15? Go tell Mike Mayock this and give him a giggle. Everyone of the players you named are a reach at #24 except for Patterson, Austin (who plays in the slot where we have Hilton) and maybe Allen... I don't see any of them being there, and the prospects next year will be of a higher standard. Now, we could trade back, that is actually a very possible scenario, but to me, a WR at #24 does not support the notion that Grigson has talked about on several occasions of Best Player Available. What Big Boards are you reading? I am yet to see any of them that project all of those guys in the top 35... please link me to them. And Woods isn't a reach at #24? My God.

As for your points about not bringing in a QB to compete with Luck... that doesn't warrant a response. The other guys... we had no cap space, we had to draft well and we did, they were later round guys who came in and produced... that backs up my point more so than yours, I think good WRs will be available in the third, as they were last year.

And the eloquent conclusion to your article, where you claim I said we are dead set on grabbing an OLB, and stay away from WRs, again proves your ineptitude at reading my posts. I said (and this is the fourth time now) that I believe a value OLB pick, or 3-4 DE pick, will be available at #24, because other team will draft poorly ahead of us, I do not see that happening with WR, and don't see the value in the position early in the draft.

And don't put words in my mouth, I never called any of our signings "lesser signings", Grigson has proven to us that he is more than competent, but I don't believe we are set at OLB, again Walden is only guaranteed $4mill, and Mathis is old.

If you are going to retort, please retort to what I write.