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Good Year To Put In A New System


OLD FAN MAN
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with peyton hurt and who knows if he is coming back, it is a good year to put a whole new system in place, dont wait till next year or we will blow away next year too. bring in new players for a new system , trade aging players for draft picks,if our present coaches cant come up with something new ,get coaches who can. what does anyone else think?

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I think thats ridiculous, this is not the raiders.... you stay the course!! REFINE the system yes... the colts are running the ball more which has shown lots of improvement, the same thing needs to happen more with the defense refine the system dig deeper into the playbook, more man coverages and more blitz's and the colts are starting to show more blitz's... i think all that will come.. ppl are mad cause the colts lost which in turn is causing ppl to nit pick... if collins had a great game alot of things would be different right now, coaches would look great and all.

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I know that people will think I am stupid and maybe I am. But if we are going to lose them why don't we see what Curtis Painter has to offer. I don't think Kerry Collins is the answer. Look what has happened the past two weeks. We don't score a touchdown until the game is out of reach. If memory serves me correct we are also looking at 3 fumbles and one interception. When Painter did that everyone wanted to burn him at the stake. If Peyton is going to be out for some time then we can see what we have and go from there. If Painter isn't suitable as a quaterback then why keep him on the squad?

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We need a new defensive scheme. The Tampa 2 has been ineffective for at least 5 years now. Manning was just strong enough in that time to overpower it's shortcomings.

We could use some freshening up of the offense, too. When Caldwell and Christensen came in they talked up "Throwing some wrinkles into the offense". That went no further than adding an end around play to Garçon that gained about 2 and a half feet in the 15 or so times we used it, and the addition of some screen plays. We still try the stretch play even though it hasn't been effective since 2004, and we've become predictable. We've just had Manning who was god enough to do something even through the defense knew it was coming.

We may not have that luxury with him when he returns next season, so yeah, we should be changing some things up.

Of course we won't, though. Nothing will change until Peyton has declined enough that he isn't able to cover up our shortcomings, and even then we'll most likely wait a season or two, just to be sure.

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I think thats ridiculous, this is not the raiders.... you stay the course!! REFINE the system yes... the colts are running the ball more which has shown lots of improvement, the same thing needs to happen more with the defense refine the system dig deeper into the playbook, more man coverages and more blitz's and the colts are starting to show more blitz's... i think all that will come.. ppl are mad cause the colts lost which in turn is causing ppl to nit pick... if collins had a great game alot of things would be different right now, coaches would look great and all.

if we stay the course we will have the same thing next year, all of us wishing and hoping for things to get better, houston changed and it worked for them

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There is nothing wrong with our system. We just need better players. A properly executed Tampa 2 is just the defense to defeat a team like the Patriots or any other high flying team. If we had a decent defensive tackles and Jerry Hughes wasn't a bust, we would not even be talking about this.

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There is nothing wrong with our system. We just need better players. A properly executed Tampa 2 is just the defense to defeat a team like the Patriots or any other high flying team.

I 100% completely disagree entirely! We have some good players, some decent players, and average players on defense. The Tampa 2 is a crap system that Larry Coyer finds a way to make even worse. A true Tampa 2 system will never even use a real NT type player which is exactly what this defense needs. The Tampa 2 calls for smaller, quicker, line penetrators and unless there is another Warren Sapp out there, who knew how to do his job to perfection, then this system is totally useless.

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with peyton hurt and who knows if he is coming back, it is a good year to put a whole new system in place, dont wait till next year or we will blow away next year too. bring in new players for a new system , trade aging players for draft picks,if our present coaches cant come up with something new ,get coaches who can. what does anyone else think?

Trade, trade, trade, trade. Blah blah blah

This is not MLB or the ghetto basketball league (nba). talking about trading is a waste of time. The colts just don't do it. I' m not saying they shouldn't. But you couldn't even get a 7th rounder for Donald brown anyways.

a 3-4 is not possible, what would you do with Freeney/mathis?

However, the Pats traded Richard Seymour. So I guess we could trade freeney.... we do have his replacement on the sidelines!! :( jerry hughes ;(

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if we stay the course we will have the same thing next year, all of us wishing and hoping for things to get better, houston changed and it worked for them

the type of change you are wanting takes seasons, not a season. So what you are wanting is for the Colts to be non factors for the next 2-3 years after this one, that won't go over with Peyton very well or the fans.

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We need a new defensive scheme. The Tampa 2 has been ineffective for at least 5 years now. Manning was just strong enough in that time to overpower it's shortcomings.

We could use some freshening up of the offense, too. When Caldwell and Christensen came in they talked up "Throwing some wrinkles into the offense". That went no further than adding an end around play to Garçon that gained about 2 and a half feet in the 15 or so times we used it, and the addition of some screen plays. We still try the stretch play even though it hasn't been effective since 2004, and we've become predictable. We've just had Manning who was god enough to do something even through the defense knew it was coming.

We may not have that luxury with him when he returns next season, so yeah, we should be changing some things up.

Of course we won't, though. Nothing will change until Peyton has declined enough that he isn't able to cover up our shortcomings, and even then we'll most likely wait a season or two, just to be sure.

Completely agree Joan. I was going to start a thread asking if we should continue the "Manning Defense" (which is our version of the Tampa 2) or go to a more risk/reward type of T2. We have T2 players, that's not going to change.

So instead of the philosophy of "hold them to 24 points and out score them", basically playing cushions, why not apply pressure and man coverage more (I know we do some of that now).

The Manning Defense has to be modified sooner or later, even with Peyton as our QB. This is the perfect time to start doing it.

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Completely agree Joan. I was going to start a thread asking if we should continue the "Manning Defense" (which is our version of the Tampa 2) or go to a more risk/reward type of T2. We have T2 players, that's not going to change.

So instead of the philosophy of "hold them to 24 points and out score them", basically playing cushions, why not apply pressure and man coverage more (I know we do some of that now).

The Manning Defense has to be modified sooner or later, even with Peyton as our QB. This is the perfect time to start doing it.

You don't make those type of changes in season, that is an offseason type of thing.

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The Tampa 2 is predicated on having exceptional athletes on key positions. Its a bend but don't break defense that may not work in today's NFL anymore. Certainly doesn't work for a team that now plays from behind more that ever.

The demise of this team is about the erosion of talent throughout the roster. Gonzalez, Hughes and Donald Brown are busts. A team can't survive the mediocre drafts that have taken place the past few years. If Lacey can't cover the Browns' WRs how can he possibly compete against the Saints, Steelers, Pats, etc. I think the Polians are the issue.

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I think if anything could be tweaked, it would be our defense. I am a fan of the 3-4 defense, but the problem is that pretty much every defensive player we have on the roster hasn't played in a 3-4 scheme and if they have it wasn't for a very long period of time. The strength of our defense is in our defensive ends. In a 3-4 scheme, the LBs should be the strongest part. That means we would have to trade Freeney and/or Mathis and probably try and upgrade our LB core. That still leaves us with a very undersized defensive line with NO nose tackle. I would like to see us revamp the defense, but I just don't see how it can be done at this point in time with our current roster.

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:coltslogo:

I know that people will think I am stupid and maybe I am. But if we are going to lose them why don't we see what Curtis Painter has to offer. I don't think Kerry Collins is the answer. Look what has happened the past two weeks. We don't score a touchdown until the game is out of reach. If memory serves me correct we are also looking at 3 fumbles and one interception. When Painter did that everyone wanted to burn him at the stake. If Peyton is going to be out for some time then we can see what we have and go from there. If Painter isn't suitable as a quaterback then why keep him on the squad?

Problem with that theory: Painter was giving us no production despite knowing the system. Collins is a few weeks in. At least he's starting to get first downs.

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:coltslogo:

I know that people will think I am stupid and maybe I am. But if we are going to lose them why don't we see what Curtis Painter has to offer. I don't think Kerry Collins is the answer. Look what has happened the past two weeks. We don't score a touchdown until the game is out of reach. If memory serves me correct we are also looking at 3 fumbles and one interception. When Painter did that everyone wanted to burn him at the stake. If Peyton is going to be out for some time then we can see what we have and go from there. If Painter isn't suitable as a quaterback then why keep him on the squad?

Problem with that theory: Painter was giving us no production despite knowing the system. Collins is a few weeks in. At least he's starting to get first downs.

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with peyton hurt and who knows if he is coming back, it is a good year to put a whole new system in place, dont wait till next year or we will blow away next year too. bring in new players for a new system , trade aging players for draft picks,if our present coaches cant come up with something new ,get coaches who can. what does anyone else think?

Team must get bigger and more physical in my opinon.How about a full back that can block? Two backs in back field and a blocking tight end. Seems like this type change will last for a long time and if teams respect our running, then just think how Manning will be on his return? Defense has to get bigger on line and LB's.Hopefully we see how bad we are this next sunday night? Then GM might get a clue on coaching changes and trades for bigger players.

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I think if anything could be tweaked, it would be our defense. I am a fan of the 3-4 defense, but the problem is that pretty much every defensive player we have on the roster hasn't played in a 3-4 scheme and if they have it wasn't for a very long period of time. The strength of our defense is in our defensive ends. In a 3-4 scheme, the LBs should be the strongest part. That means we would have to trade Freeney and/or Mathis and probably try and upgrade our LB core. That still leaves us with a very undersized defensive line with NO nose tackle. I would like to see us revamp the defense, but I just don't see how it can be done at this point in time with our current roster.

That would sadly take the remainder of Manning's career to get right. It should also be noted that more and more teams are moving to spread, hurry-up shotgun offenses that mince the LB and Safety heavy 3-4's. The 3-4 was "it" for the last 5 or 6 years, but it's not the future. Defenses trend. The offenses are figuring out how to beat it.

Our defense does need work, but the move to a 3-4 would be costly, and likely not the answer you are hoping for.

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The Tampa 2 is predicated on having exceptional athletes on key positions. Its a bend but don't break defense that may not work in today's NFL anymore. Certainly doesn't work for a team that now plays from behind more that ever.

The demise of this team is about the erosion of talent throughout the roster. Gonzalez, Hughes and Donald Brown are busts. A team can't survive the mediocre drafts that have taken place the past few years. If Lacey can't cover the Browns' WRs how can he possibly compete against the Saints, Steelers, Pats, etc. I think the Polians are the issue.

Simple Questions:

1. Q. Have the Polians put together a superbowl quality team this year, minus Manning? A. = No (Fact)

2. Q. Have the Polians put together a superbowl quality team this year, with a Healthy Manning? A. NO (Opinion based only, but I say No.) The reason for my no is due to the fact that they are not a dominating team. The Pats can put good players around Brady, why can't the Colts? The Steelers won without big ben, why can't the colts?

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We need a new defensive scheme. The Tampa 2 has been ineffective for at least 5 years now. Manning was just strong enough in that time to overpower it's shortcomings.

We could use some freshening up of the offense, too. When Caldwell and Christensen came in they talked up "Throwing some wrinkles into the offense". That went no further than adding an end around play to Garçon that gained about 2 and a half feet in the 15 or so times we used it, and the addition of some screen plays. We still try the stretch play even though it hasn't been effective since 2004, and we've become predictable. We've just had Manning who was god enough to do something even through the defense knew it was coming.

We may not have that luxury with him when he returns next season, so yeah, we should be changing some things up.

Of course we won't, though. Nothing will change until Peyton has declined enough that he isn't able to cover up our shortcomings, and even then we'll most likely wait a season or two, just to be sure.

I think you ppl are confusing yall selves, the tampa 2 is just a name but the plays itself are the schemes.. when the colts had bob sanders guess what they played? a 46 DEFENSE with one saftey up top but the only thing the colts didnt allow was their CB's to go in man coverage. they still do that today but now with coyer they are blitzing more especially this yr having their corners in man coverage but they do not bump the receivers.

Point is teams like the colts DONT run the pure tampa 2 coverage anymore because QB's have had so many looks at it, you are seeing much more blitz's by the OLB's and CB's... one person i would love to see blitzing is wheeler and Caldwell although neither of them dont start... caldwell is a hard hitter.

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A team can't survive the mediocre drafts that have taken place the past few years. If Lacey can't cover the Browns' WRs how can he possibly compete against the Saints, Steelers, Pats, etc.

Marlin Jackson, Kelvin Hayden, and Bob Sanders were all high draft picks that did a fine job until injuries did them in. They are all young enough that they should all still be starting. Lacey is just an UFA who was effective in the nickel but now has too much on his plate. I think the drafts have been very good the past three years - although the lack of pro-bowl talent emerging from the first round has been disappointing.

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How about a full back that can block? Two backs in back field and a blocking tight end. Seems like this type change will last for a long time and if teams respect our running, then just think how Manning will be on his return? Defense has to get bigger on line and LB's.

They brought in two larger RBs and a FB this offseason, and they have a pretty good blocking TE already. The running game is improving (despite the OL's youth on the left side and dysfunction of the right). I'm exited about the prospect of Manning working with this unit even if nothing else changes.

They brought in two larger DEs and a larger DT this offseason, and their ability to stop the run has improved. However disappointing the two loses were, I never had that feeling of the defense sitting back exhausted and helpless while being gashed up the middle over and over again (like often happened last year).

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I think if anything could be tweaked, it would be our defense. I am a fan of the 3-4 defense, but the problem is that pretty much every defensive player we have on the roster hasn't played in a 3-4 scheme and if they have it wasn't for a very long period of time. The strength of our defense is in our defensive ends. In a 3-4 scheme, the LBs should be the strongest part. That means we would have to trade Freeney and/or Mathis and probably try and upgrade our LB core. That still leaves us with a very undersized defensive line with NO nose tackle. I would like to see us revamp the defense, but I just don't see how it can be done at this point in time with our current roster.

3-4 is a bad idea for us. That's going to take Freeney and Mathis right out of the equation.

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I 100% completely disagree entirely! We have some good players, some decent players, and average players on defense. The Tampa 2 is a crap system that Larry Coyer finds a way to make even worse. A true Tampa 2 system will never even use a real NT type player which is exactly what this defense needs. The Tampa 2 calls for smaller, quicker, line penetrators and unless there is another Warren Sapp out there, who knew how to do his job to perfection, then this system is totally useless.

I agree about 95%. Tampa 2 does actually use and relies heavily on a true NT and a penetrating UT, as well of course as the 2 pass rushing ends. The 2 DT spots are a large part of why I feel the tampa 2 has been so ineffective for us. Dungy and Monte Kiffin designed the tampa 2 and they both believed in giving up some size for speed. So they used Booger McFarland at NT and Warren Sapp at UT. Both elite players who were somewhat undersized but both still over 300 lbs. When Dungy came here he took that undersized philosophy to a whole new, unhealthy level. DT's we've had under him prior to the last couple of years were guys like Brock (a natural DE), Reagor, Foster, Dawson etc. None of these guys are over 280 lbs so they're giving up a minimum of 20 more lbs than the guys used in Tampa who were also considered somewhat undersized. Then instead of using LB's in the 230-240 lbs range he like the majority of LB's from his Tampa days, he went after guys like Cato June, Gilbert Gardner, Freddy Keiaho etc who are all 225 or less.

So yeah the tampa 2 does require solid NT play and the only time we had that was in '06 which coincidentally was when we won the SB. However after we lost Corey Simon and Booger to injury, Dungy never bothered to replace them. We've gotten better play out of Antonio Johnson the past 2 games than we've ever seen from NT except for that SB year and I'm not sure he's the best starter we could have which is why I'd like to see NT addressed in the draft. Then at the very least Johnson becomes a quality backup.

I think you ppl are confusing yall selves, the tampa 2 is just a name but the plays itself are the schemes.. when the colts had bob sanders guess what they played? a 46 DEFENSE with one saftey up top but the only thing the colts didnt allow was their CB's to go in man coverage. they still do that today but now with coyer they are blitzing more especially this yr having their corners in man coverage but they do not bump the receivers.

Point is teams like the colts DONT run the pure tampa 2 coverage anymore because QB's have had so many looks at it, you are seeing much more blitz's by the OLB's and CB's... one person i would love to see blitzing is wheeler and Caldwell although neither of them dont start... caldwell is a hard hitter.

We never ran a true 46 defense. :P When Sanders was here, he did line up in the box a lot but Tampa Bay did the same thing with John Lynch. One of the things about the tampa 2 is they drop the MLB in deep zone coverage but often bring a safety up to stop the run. That makes my head spin more than any drug induced hallucination ever could. The colts simply need to stick to a more standard cover 2 and continue to be more aggressive...in a similar manner to the type of defense the Bears run. Save the tampa 2 for 3rd and 10 or more. They simply run the tampa 2 too much on first and second downs and that is ultimately what is killing us...well that and questionable play from our CB positions.

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There is nothing wrong with our system. We just need better players. A properly executed Tampa 2 is just the defense to defeat a team like the Patriots or any other high flying team. If we had a decent defensive tackles and Jerry Hughes wasn't a bust, we would not even be talking about this.

We need to adjust our system to the players that we have. Every year they make so called adjustments but all they do is get rid of players and then sign cheaper players that are no better than the ones that they got rid of.

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Any defense that is predicated on giving up yardage in order to hope for mistakes in a sustained drive is inherently flawed. The tampa 2 is dying around the NFL, and it should be buried as fast as it can be here too.

I know all of you have been watching a game and thought to yourself, "Why in the heck do our DB's drop 15 yards off the recievers on a 3rd and 7?" Well, the Tampa 2 my friend.....designed to stop the big play by allowing the underneath passing game. And we suck when we use it.

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Any defense that is predicated on giving up yardage in order to hope for mistakes in a sustained drive is inherently flawed. The tampa 2 is dying around the NFL, and it should be buried as fast as it can be here too.

I know all of you have been watching a game and thought to yourself, "Why in the heck do our DB's drop 15 yards off the recievers on a 3rd and 7?" Well, the Tampa 2 my friend.....designed to stop the big play by allowing the underneath passing game. And we suck when we use it.

Add to that...why are we dropping the MLB back into deep zone and leaving a HUGE hole right in the short center of the field. At least with a standard cover 2 zone, the WR has to get behind the group of LB's instead of in front of them so it takes longer to develop. This would give Mathis, Freeny and Co. more time to get the QB down.

A standard cover 2 defense is fine, and if they want to pull out the tampa 2 on like 3rd and 12 or more then I won't complain. But on 1st and 10? Really?

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I agree about 95%. Tampa 2 does actually use and relies heavily on a true NT and a penetrating UT, as well of course as the 2 pass rushing ends. The 2 DT spots are a large part of why I feel the tampa 2 has been so ineffective for us. Dungy and Monte Kiffin designed the tampa 2 and they both believed in giving up some size for speed. So they used Booger McFarland at NT and Warren Sapp at UT. Both elite players who were somewhat undersized but both still over 300 lbs. When Dungy came here he took that undersized philosophy to a whole new, unhealthy level. DT's we've had under him prior to the last couple of years were guys like Brock (a natural DE), Reagor, Foster, Dawson etc. None of these guys are over 280 lbs so they're giving up a minimum of 20 more lbs than the guys used in Tampa who were also considered somewhat undersized. Then instead of using LB's in the 230-240 lbs range he like the majority of LB's from his Tampa days, he went after guys like Cato June, Gilbert Gardner, Freddy Keiaho etc who are all 225 or less.

So yeah the tampa 2 does require solid NT play and the only time we had that was in '06 which coincidentally was when we won the SB. However after we lost Corey Simon and Booger to injury, Dungy never bothered to replace them. We've gotten better play out of Antonio Johnson the past 2 games than we've ever seen from NT except for that SB year and I'm not sure he's the best starter we could have which is why I'd like to see NT addressed in the draft. Then at the very least Johnson becomes a quality backup.

We never ran a true 46 defense. :P When Sanders was here, he did line up in the box a lot but Tampa Bay did the same thing with John Lynch. One of the things about the tampa 2 is they drop the MLB in deep zone coverage but often bring a safety up to stop the run. That makes my head spin more than any drug induced hallucination ever could. The colts simply need to stick to a more standard cover 2 and continue to be more aggressive...in a similar manner to the type of defense the Bears run. Save the tampa 2 for 3rd and 10 or more. They simply run the tampa 2 too much on first and second downs and that is ultimately what is killing us...well that and questionable play from our CB positions.

The colts are slowly changing the way they play defense, you are seeing alot more run blitz's with alot more cb blitz's... this thing about the system has to change is ridiculous... if the 3-4 was so great how come the pats went to a 4-3? the colts have a wide open playbook they'll use it this year.....

I seen them run a running play ive never seen them run before, with the FB running towards the center and the running back getting to the outside, definitely a first for me.

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The colts are slowly changing the way they play defense, you are seeing alot more run blitz's with alot more cb blitz's... this thing about the system has to change is ridiculous... if the 3-4 was so great how come the pats went to a 4-3? the colts have a wide open playbook they'll use it this year.....

I seen them run a running play ive never seen them run before, with the FB running towards the center and the running back getting to the outside, definitely a first for me.

I'm pretty sure the Pats' switch back to 4-3 was more determined by the players they were able to acquire rather than how well they thought the 3-4 worked. The 3-4 worked very well for them they I just don't think they had the players this year to be able to run it as well.

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I'm pretty sure the Pats' switch back to 4-3 was more determined by the players they were able to acquire rather than how well they thought the 3-4 worked. The 3-4 worked very well for them they I just don't think they had the players this year to be able to run it as well.

Nahhh the pats were horrible in the 3-4 last year, couple that with their young defense and how they were struggling later in the year.. it just seemed like it was the right way to go for them with the players they had, now put in albert and the rest of the guys they aquired and bam 4-3 they also needed some veterans on that team.

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i agree the offseason is now

This is foolhardy.

Allow me to explain a few things;

We are in a most rare situation. Typically when a team has lost hope for a playoff run so early in the season it is because they don't have the players to make a stand. We have those players. We also have a great deal of reason to expect our franchise HoF QB to return next season to pick up where he left off.

It is an unusual position for a losing team to be in. To have little hope of success this season, and much hope for success next season, and much of that hope is derived from just getting a player back, rather than all hope being aimed at the draft.

We know what we're getting when Manning returns. As opposed to many losing teams that can only place hope on the shoulders of unknowns. Being that we may very well end up with 2-3 great draft picks, add that to Manning being back and we're actually in far better shape than we would've been had Manning played this year.

Changing too much this year will be destructive to next years run. Lets keep things, for the most part, as they are. When we get the GOAT back, I believe the sacrifice of the entire 2011 campaign will pay off will an increased chance of title runs over the next 3-4 years. As well, the draft picks accrued will bode well for our future without Manning.

This ghastly season may well be the best thing to ever happen to Indy.

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Nahhh the pats were horrible in the 3-4 last year, couple that with their young defense and how they were struggling later in the year.. it just seemed like it was the right way to go for them with the players they had, now put in albert and the rest of the guys they aquired and bam 4-3 they also needed some veterans on that team.

I was just saying that I don't think they changed the scheme because they felt it was a bad defense but rather because the players they had were better suited for the 4-3, so it was more a response to their current personnel and not their displeasure with the 3-4. So basically I think we're saying the same thing. :)

This ghastly season may well be the best thing to ever happen to Indy.

I fully agree....yes this has cost Manning one season, but the rewards we reap from having this bad season could make the team vastly better in the long run and give Manning a better chance at additional championships than he otherwise may have had.

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come on guys this is manning he will be back and he will turn our season around we are the colts not some other team that has been not so good this is manning and the colts we believe in blue colts fans have reasons for that and when you are a colts fan we ride together we win together and lose together but we are still colts fans and we believe in are team with manning or with out him yes does it make things a lot harder with out manning yes but we are the colts we will figure everything out and make it work you know why cause we are the colts and colts win football games

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with peyton hurt and who knows if he is coming back, it is a good year to put a whole new system in place, dont wait till next year or we will blow away next year too. bring in new players for a new system , trade aging players for draft picks,if our present coaches cant come up with something new ,get coaches who can. what does anyone else think?

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with peyton hurt and who knows if he is coming back, it is a good year to put a whole new system in place, dont wait till next year or we will blow away next year too. bring in new players for a new system , trade aging players for draft picks,if our present coaches cant come up with something new ,get coaches who can. what does anyone else think?

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