Brady And Manning

[dw49]

We are honestly talking about an exhibition game? I imagine Peyton did not warm up or approach this game as a regular season game. Peyton had probably his second best season (numbers) of his career. He and Brady are both viable MVP candidates and will probably finish 2nd and 3rd to AP. While clearly he doesn't have Favre like arm strength he is definately adequate enough. He has always thrown wobbly balls. He has never had a tight spiral. He has always been incredibly accurate but first and foremost beats teams by knowing when and where a receiver will be open and anticipating it and delivering. He was one of the league leaders in TD passes of more than 20yds. I think everyone is just looking to pile on the two hall of famers. The reason why it was hard for both to throw deep is teams know the best chance is to take away deep strikes by playing 2 deep safety's and letting them run. Would you want to throw deep with Ed Reed 25 yds off the ball???? I think not. Most teams dare qbs to throw it....Peyton and Brady get dared to run it.

 

He used the glove because of the weather...he is always testing stuff. He used it during the season because he knew he would need it in the playoffs. Big Ben uses a glove a lot too....is his arm declining?? Every receiver in the game uses gloves because it gives them better grip. Peyton knows he hasn't ever thrown well in cold weather and is smart enough to try to better his chances. I just think this is being blown way out of proportion. Brady's guys dropped passes on 3rd down. Peyton's guys didn't get seperation from the Raven defenders and they dropped 6 and 7 even into coverage. Finally Peyton's safety gave up a 70+ TD with under a minute left by making the worst defensive play in the history or we would have seen one of these two in the super bowl and saying right now...truely these are the two best qbs of our generation.

 

I don't for a minute feel that these guys are not bot hstill very good NFL QB's . If you read my posts in an unbiased fair way , I think you will agree. All I'm trying to point out is that when QB's hit the 36-37 mark , history shows that they start dropping rapidly. What I said with Manning is that he does not have enough arm stength to be on an equal level to the young guys with strong arms if the weather is bad. Fact is the weather is usually bad in January. I only copied the article from the Boston paper regarding Brady. They more than likely saw his every play this year while I didn't. My major point is that all the great QB's suffer a big fall off ataround this age. The exceptions that I can think of were favre and Elway and they both had monster arm strength. Everything you post is correct , I'm just not sure if yoy really address what I've posted.

[dw49]

If that's what he said, so be it. But I think most quarterbacks would say that when they're trying to complete a pass that they know they shouldn't be throwing, and it gets intercepted. There's a reason you're not supposed to throw back across your body there, and it's because it's hard to get as much on that throw as you'd like. It's a tough throw to make, even when the receiver is wide open. As it happened, the defender stepped in front of it and picked it off. I don't think even a rocket would have been completed, because it was a poor decision to throw that pass to that receiver right there. 

 

I just don't think that interception had anything to do with the velocity of the throw. It was just a bad throw.

 

And again, there are tons of throws he made over the course of the season that had plenty of pop on them. He actually seemed to get stronger as the year went on.

 

 

 

Cool deal.

 

Just, to the bolded, though... Most quarterbacks don't gain arm strength at 37. But given the medical condition he's dealt with for however long, if the doctors think there's a chance for his nerves to regenerate back to pre-injury levels, then his arm could get back to where it was before he started feeling the effects of his injury. It's a unique situation for a 37 year old quarterback. The reality is that he just played an entire season injured, and put up 37 touchdowns and 4700 yards, both the second highest totals of his career. He might not get stronger, but I think it will be okay.

 

But if he was slowly losing arm strength since 2006 (many have speculated the hit against the Redskins was the genesis of this problem), then it very well could be that we could see him regain some of that nerve capacity and his arm could get stronger. Like you said earlier, that's probably the optimist's view. The odds might not be in his favor there. But it's a unique situation.

 

Either way, like we both said, Manning with nerve damage is still pretty doggone good.

 

 

 

I think I did say that I've read that the nerves could regenerate more. I was actually going to post the exact same as you ...that this could be a "unigue" situation because of this . Instead I said I just doubt that we're really going to see a guy gain arm strength at 37. If I had to hazzard a guess , I would be very surprised to see him with better arm strength next year. This said < i totally agree that PM is still one of the games best . I actually think that he was more accurate in 2012 than he ever was. Not sure that this bodes well going forward as I really think he couldn't possibly be better in 2013. While I agree that both guys are still top notch , I do feel that Manning is not going to be effective on a cold windy (God forbid windy) day and I threw in the Brady article to see what you all thought of that,

[bayone]

I think I did say that I've read that the nerves could regenerate more. I was actually going to post the exact same as you ...that this could be a "unigue" situation because of this . Instead I said I just doubt that we're really going to see a guy gain arm strength at 37. If I had to hazzard a guess , I would be very surprised to see him with better arm strength next year. This said < i totally agree that PM is still one of the games best . I actually think that he was more accurate in 2012 than he ever was. Not sure that this bodes well going forward as I really think he couldn't possibly be better in 2013. While I agree that both guys are still top notch , I do feel that Manning is not going to be effective on a cold windy (God forbid windy) day and I threw in the Brady article to see what you all thought of that,

 

 

His Drs said the neves and thus arm strength have room to regerate and he can get srongewr with a reall off season conditioning 

 

program, not like last year , o posted articl;e some where

 

That  said its still a " could get stronger ", doesnt mean it will

 

-------------------

 

as far as IT throw , Stiokely was open for a good 25 yards gain after the catch even, Peyton did same play in season and stockley got a TD, of note DT & Decker were sop cold or tired or whatever they didnt even try to work themselves clear when seeing peyton flushed from pocket, only stokely did try & help his qb

 

I agree the throw was bad, and Peyton shouldn't of done it based on how cold was weakening arm after 1st half especially

 

his lack of deep throws all game was obvious top all so musty have been to him, he felt the numbness just guess he tried anyay out of instict as wasnt deep but was across body

 

Maybe they can come up with some type of warming sleeve to keep all  toaasty, in either case

 

Knowing at least was coldest day ever in playoff history and 2bnd coldest day ever in Denver I read , odds are it wont get that bad again , if have home team advantage

 

will be another tough schedule though NFC East u never know

[bayone]

FJC posted a chart last offseason showing how rarely Manning attempts passes more than 40 yards downfield. I don't feel like finding it now, but I believe in 2004, he attempted 2 passes of more than 40 yards, and completed 1 (I could be off slightly, but that's very close). The long ball has never been a significant part of his game, even in his most explosive season.

 

 

Broncos were near top this year in deep plays due tom height of DT & decker , something he didnt have with Colts

[oldunclemark]

wow...brady threw like 38 TDs and 5 ints.

I'll take that productivity out of my QB any day.

and Manning was 37 and 11

//Neither throws as hard as they once did although Tom Brady's arm strength is still really good..

Lets not confuse velocity with effectiveness.

..and I think Peyton Manning will be playing at age 40...I think its pretty certain he will..

..and the only way Tom Brady isnt is if Giselle has other ideas...

[GoPats]

The Pats have a better run game to me. And the Broncos were supposed to have this statistically great defense but I never was sold. These teams beat up on awful division rivals 6 times a year and I think sometimes the easy road to the playoffs is not always the best thing in the world to prepare you. I was much higher on NE though heading into the playoffs over Denver and after they lost to the Ravens again it is interesting to note how many issues the Pats have had vs. physical playoff teams; most notably the Giants and Ravens.

 

I was reading a good analysis of the Pats-Ravens game last night.

 

Baltimore played something like four snaps, for the entire game, in their base D. They played the vast majority of the game in their nickle package, essentially daring the Patriots to run the ball at them.

 

They tried, to an extent, but could not get it rolling. The writer for the Boston Globe (Greg Bedard) said that both Hernandez and Hoo-man (Gronk's backup) continuously got beaten badly by defenders. It sounds like the blocking just wasn't there in the run game. Certain teams (like the Giants and Ravens) will do that to you and can stop the run with minimal personnel.

 

Sounds like they missed Gronk as much as a blocker as they did a receiver. They averaged something like 4.9 YPC with him in the lineup, and just over 3 YPC without him.

 

I personally am also not entirely sold on Stevan Ridley just yet. He still has issues hanging onto the ball (though I can't fault him for that fumble, since Pollard really clocked him) but I don't see consistency out of him.

 

The best Patriots TEAM, in my opinion, was the Corey Dillon year (1600+ yards in 2004). No small coincidence, I think, that was the best run game Brady's had in his career.

[tonychen]

I was reading a good analysis of the Pats-Ravens game last night.

 

Baltimore played something like four snaps, for the entire game, in their base D. They played the vast majority of the game in their nickle package, essentially daring the Patriots to run the ball at them.

 

They tried, to an extent, but could not get it rolling. The writer for the Boston Globe (Greg Bedard) said that both Hernandez and Hoo-man (Gronk's backup) continuously got beaten badly by defenders. It sounds like the blocking just wasn't there in the run game. Certain teams (like the Giants and Ravens) will do that to you and can stop the run with minimal personnel.

 

Sounds like they missed Gronk as much as a blocker as they did a receiver. They averaged something like 4.9 YPC with him in the lineup, and just over 3 YPC without him.

 

I personally am also not entirely sold on Stevan Ridley just yet. He still has issues hanging onto the ball (though I can't fault him for that fumble, since Pollard really clocked him) but I don't see consistency out of him.

 

The best Patriots TEAM, in my opinion, was the Corey Dillon year (1600+ yards in 2004). No small coincidence, I think, that was the best run game Brady's had in his career.

 

Pretty much the Ravens played with the same strategy in the Denvers game as well. Their run defense has been much better since the return of Ray Lewis and this is the key to their success so far. But still the goals for both the Pats and Broncos running games is to be servicable enough such that they can keep the opposing defense honest and therefore set up the passing games. They just cannot run the football to win games.

 

The early Pats teams were actually very similar to this yrs Ravens team - Based on run and good defense, QB plays to keep the defense honest and set up other things. Since Brady started to post Manning-like numbers the team never won SBs.

[Superman]

Broncos were near top this year in deep plays due tom height of DT & decker , something he didnt have with Colts

 

I haven't looked at the numbers, but I bet those big plays were partly yards after catch. The numbers I was referring to analyzed specifically the distance of the throw, not the yardage gained on the play.

[Jules]

I was reading a good analysis of the Pats-Ravens game last night.

 

Baltimore played something like four snaps, for the entire game, in their base D. They played the vast majority of the game in their nickle package, essentially daring the Patriots to run the ball at them.

 

They tried, to an extent, but could not get it rolling. The writer for the Boston Globe (Greg Bedard) said that both Hernandez and Hoo-man (Gronk's backup) continuously got beaten badly by defenders. It sounds like the blocking just wasn't there in the run game. Certain teams (like the Giants and Ravens) will do that to you and can stop the run with minimal personnel.

 

Sounds like they missed Gronk as much as a blocker as they did a receiver. They averaged something like 4.9 YPC with him in the lineup, and just over 3 YPC without him.

 

I personally am also not entirely sold on Stevan Ridley just yet. He still has issues hanging onto the ball (though I can't fault him for that fumble, since Pollard really clocked him) but I don't see consistency out of him.

 

The best Patriots TEAM, in my opinion, was the Corey Dillon year (1600+ yards in 2004). No small coincidence, I think, that was the best run game Brady's had in his career.

 

 

Oh no doubt missing Gronk was a huge physical presence missed by the Pats vs. the Ravens and then the Giants in the SB last year. He was barely effective in the SB obviously. Really a shame for the Pats and Pats fans since he is such a great player when healthy.  Maybe he is your offensive version of Bob Sanders now? I hope not for your case though. I also would have been interested to have seen Gronk out there with NE vs. the 49ers this season.

 

I hate to use injuries as an excuse too so I try not too.

 

Thanks for the breakdown.

 

I am not saying neither Brady/Manning can't 100% win it all. Both will continue to win a lot of games. And based on the landscape of the AFC one could be in the SB next season even. Just that I think they need to ease up the load on both guys, especially come postseason time when the wear and tear to me starts to show up more and a balanced attack is needed more then ever.

 

I did think for several games this year that the Pats run game was clicking great. Maybe it was Gronk that had a bigger effect then I realized based on the YPC with him and without.

[Jules]

Pretty much the Ravens played with the same strategy in the Denvers game as well. Their run defense has been much better since the return of Ray Lewis and this is the key to their success so far. But still the goals for both the Pats and Broncos running games is to be servicable enough such that they can keep the opposing defense honest and therefore set up the passing games. They just cannot run the football to win games.

 

The early Pats teams were actually very similar to this yrs Ravens team - Based on run and good defense, QB plays to keep the defense honest and set up other things. Since Brady started to post Manning-like numbers the team never won SBs.

 

 

Lets hope they were not all "juiced up" to an extent in Baltimore. They went from  to .

[bayone]

I haven't looked at the numbers, but I bet those big plays were partly yards after catch. The numbers I was referring to analyzed specifically the distance of the throw, not the yardage gained on the play.

I watched every game, I also havent analyzed #''s but while some were YACs , quite many were really deep throws, now throws were high & DT after 1st 3 games made some great catches, none were 70 yards many in air for 40 + IF I REMEMBER RIGHT

[Superman]

I watched every game, I also havent analyzed #''s but while some were YACs , quite many were really deep throws, now throws were high & DT after 1st 3 games made some great catches, none were 70 yards many in air for 40 + IF I REMEMBER RIGHT

 

What qualifies as a "deep throw"? The list I was referencing breaks it down by yardage. Either way, my point was that I'm not worried about Manning's ability to throw the ball down the field.

[bayone]

Lets hope they were not all "juiced up" to an extent in Baltimore. They went from  to .

 

artcle says Flacco turned season around as remembered face in dirt when Harris did 98 yard IT in first Bronco game  soince then 12 TDs , no IT's

==========================================================================

 

 

Flacco gave chase and surprisingly nearly caught Harris, but a flailing dive inside the 5 came up empty. Instead of 10-7, it was 17-0 Broncos at halftime.

 

The image of a sprawled Flacco, his face buried in shame on the M&T Bank Stadium turf, was printed for posterity on the cover of The Baltimore Sun.

 

"I was tired from running 100 yards," Flacco said, smiling as he walked through the hallways of the Ravens' Hilton Riverside Hotel.

That pick six to Harris? Flacco hasn't thrown an interception since.

 

When he threw two touchdown passes to tight end Dennis Pitta in the fourth quarter of what was a Broncos rout, it seemed Flacco was simply piling up garbage-time stats.

 

"I thought so, too," Flacco said, again smiling.

 

Entering his Super Bowl matchup Sunday against the San Francisco 49ers, Flacco has thrown 12 scoring passes with zero

Read more:Baltimore Ravens QB Joe Flacco's turning point came in Dec. 16 loss to Denver Broncos - The Denver Posthttp://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_22469549/ravens-qb-joe-flaccos-turning-point-came-loss#ixzz2JOqrQxXd

 

[bayone]

What qualifies as a "deep throw"?

 

The list I was referencing breaks it down by yardage.

 

Either way, my point was that I'm not worried about Manning's ability to throw the ball down the field.

What qualifies as a "deep throw"?

 

Guess me going oh yeah thats a long one when thrown 

 

I havent  read entire thread, but agree with the blue unless arm was somehow  set back in that cold weather for so long, hopefully off season can get all back & more

 

I also liked tighter spirals & acurracy in last 2 reg season games with glove

 

I must get off now, have a good day

[bayone]

What qualifies as a "deep throw"? The list I was referencing breaks it down by yardage. Either way, my point was that I'm not worried about Manning's ability to throw the ball down the field.

 

 

PS , there was an article, just so u know when I said  in a line u quoted

 

Broncos were near top this year in deep plays

 

I remember that from before the Raven playoff game saying that about both teams in said article, it may have been more detailed on the big plays , but dont have link

 

, BYE

 

Barry

[Jules]

I can't believe it has not been said yet.

 

Jack them both up with deer antler spray next January.

[dgambill]

I don't for a minute feel that these guys are not bot hstill very good NFL QB's . If you read my posts in an unbiased fair way , I think you will agree. All I'm trying to point out is that when QB's hit the 36-37 mark , history shows that they start dropping rapidly. What I said with Manning is that he does not have enough arm stength to be on an equal level to the young guys with strong arms if the weather is bad. Fact is the weather is usually bad in January. I only copied the article from the Boston paper regarding Brady. They more than likely saw his every play this year while I didn't. My major point is that all the great QB's suffer a big fall off ataround this age. The exceptions that I can think of were favre and Elway and they both had monster arm strength. Everything you post is correct , I'm just not sure if yoy really address what I've posted.

All I am saying is rocket arm does not equal success. We've seen it down through time. Kurt Warner played great at his later age. QB arm strength is one of the last things I would consider when discussing the great qbs in the league and those that have won super bowls. The only reason we are even having this convo is because one qb got let down by huge 3rd down drops by his receivers and the other by the worst defensive play in playoff history with 30 seconds left. If that hadn't happen it wouldn't even be a discussion. One of these two would be in the Super Bowl and we would be saying great stuff about them. The fact that a strong armed qb made it this year doesn't change that....he didn't out play either of the two qbs...his team outplayed the opposing team.

 

PS arm strength has little to do in cold weather...yes the air is more dense and the ball won't fly as far but the only issue I have seen with Manning in cold weather has been that his grip effects him more as he has more passes flutter....but really what it comes down to is that in those cold weather games he has gone up against New England with their defense in their prime (a great defense) and Baltimore another great defense that played a very deep cover two and their corners were all over his receivers and they couldn't get free. We need to look at all the reasons why a team lost and not at one player. Yes Peyton made 1 very very bad pass late in OT. However he made tons of good to great ones to put them in position to win. His defense did NOTHING to help him. Brady led several several good drives but his offense time and again dropped critical 3rd down plays. Neither loss was a result of age or deteriating skills imo.

[tonychen]

PS arm strength has little to do in cold weather...yes the air is more dense and the ball won't fly as far but the only issue I have seen with Manning in cold weather has been that his grip effects him more as he has more passes flutter....but really what it comes down to is that in those cold weather games he has gone up against New England with their defense in their prime (a great defense) and Baltimore another great defense that played a very deep cover two and their corners were all over his receivers and they couldn't get free. We need to look at all the reasons why a team lost and not at one player. Yes Peyton made 1 very very bad pass late in OT. However he made tons of good to great ones to put them in position to win. His defense did NOTHING to help him. Brady led several several good drives but his offense time and again dropped critical 3rd down plays. Neither loss was a result of age or deteriating skills imo.

 

I dont think the losses were directly resulted from the aging of the QBs but for Peyton I think his consistency is not as good as it used to be which cost him some crucial plays, including missing the wide open Thomas going toward the end of the 1st half which resulted in a missed FG and then a Ravens TD, as well as the INT in OT. Not sure it is only age but his nerve has not recovered fully which could be huge problem in cold weather. For Brady you may notice his big plays in the past 2-3 seasons are mostly from YAC of his illusive receivers and TEs, while earlier than 09 his deep pass was fantastic. They added Lyold to fill the gap of Randy Moss but there is nothing happening. Not sure it's his arm strength or the lack of WR talent but the production is not even close.

[JerodMayo51]

One thing I will say about Manning, a lot of his long bombs and stuff are beautiful.  Even though he may not have a lot of heat on them anymore from the surgery, he puts such an incredible arch on his long throws, it just drops down beautifully right in front of the receiver, often times way in the back of the endzone where the defender can't even get it.  He has great touch on his balls (giggity)

[tonychen]

One thing I will say about Manning, a lot of his long bombs and stuff are beautiful.  Even though he may not have a lot of heat on them anymore from the surgery, he puts such an incredible arch on his long throws, it just drops down beautifully right in front of the receiver, often times way in the back of the endzone where the defender can't even get it.  He has great touch on his balls (giggity)

 

He used to be able to do this consistently before his neck injury but did not have the OL to give him >2secs in Indy. Now he has the OL and WRs so he can do this from time to time but the consistency is no longer great due to the nerve damage. One great throw to tight spot could be followed by a horrible wobbling INT.

[JerodMayo51]

He used to be able to do this consistently before his neck injury but did not have the OL to give him >2secs in Indy. Now he has the OL and WRs so he can do this from time to time but the consistency is no longer great due to the nerve damage. One great throw to tight spot could be followed by a horrible wobbling INT.

 

I'm curious to see how much another off season will help him in gaining strength back in his arm and his grip.  Brady has a strong arm, but sometimes he puts too much zip on the ball instead of lofting it in there with a nice arch on it.  Sometimes its just on a rope straight at the receiver, even 30+ yards down the field, which creates an easier opportunity for the defender to get at it.  Hes a bit inconsistent with his long bombs, but that is also due to not having a deep threat receiver on the team anymore.

 

This was a really fun year to watch at the Quarterback position, its going to be a sad day when Brees, Manning and Brady all retire

[dw49]

All I am saying is rocket arm does not equal success. We've seen it down through time. Kurt Warner played great at his later age. QB arm strength is one of the last things I would consider when discussing the great qbs in the league and those that have won super bowls. The only reason we are even having this convo is because one qb got let down by huge 3rd down drops by his receivers and the other by the worst defensive play in playoff history with 30 seconds left. If that hadn't happen it wouldn't even be a discussion. One of these two would be in the Super Bowl and we would be saying great stuff about them. The fact that a strong armed qb made it this year doesn't change that....he didn't out play either of the two qbs...his team outplayed the opposing team.

 

PS arm strength has little to do in cold weather...yes the air is more dense and the ball won't fly as far but the only issue I have seen with Manning in cold weather has been that his grip effects him more as he has more passes flutter....but really what it comes down to is that in those cold weather games he has gone up against New England with their defense in their prime (a great defense) and Baltimore another great defense that played a very deep cover two and their corners were all over his receivers and they couldn't get free. We need to look at all the reasons why a team lost and not at one player. Yes Peyton made 1 very very bad pass late in OT. However he made tons of good to great ones to put them in position to win. His defense did NOTHING to help him. Brady led several several good drives but his offense time and again dropped critical 3rd down plays. Neither loss was a result of age or deteriating skills imo.

 

 

 

I'm not sure if I stated it in this thread or another but I have said that the biggest disadvantage would be in windy conditions. I do think cold and windy is probably worse. In any event my problem with Manning in windy condition would be no spiral and not enough arm. As far as Brady goes , I only watched a few Pat games. I reaaly don't know if his talents are starting to fall off. I only posted the article from the Boston Globe and asked what you people thought of it. I thought Brady's down field throws were off somwhtat , but I really didn't see enough of him this year to give it my best opinion. I do feel as you do. The loss was due to some horrible drops and a good job of the Pats covering and jamming the Pat receivers. I do think as great as Manning was , he now has a wseakness in his game and that is questionable arm strength. Let's put it this way . If I ranked the QBs in order from 1-10 and then did it for a January gae at NE with big winds , manning would plummet down on my list.

 

A case can be made for your staement that neither guy has "fallen off." That would be their stats and also their teams were the No 1 and No 2 seeds. It's my belief that as good as they are , they are both now starting to fall off. IMO , more so PM than Brady. manning is going to be 37 and history shows other than big armed QB's , this is when they rapidly decline. Was Pm still good in 2012 ... yep. I actually think he ay have been even more accurate than ever. Howevrer If I'm Denver and paying 20 mill a year , I'm praying for nice , mld , calm Sundays in January.

 

BTW... you are correct with Warner. He played well at 37 and 38. He didn't have a lot of milage as he started only 125 games (regular season) in his career but he was still an effective QB .. no doubt. So good point there.

[dgambill]

I'm not sure if I stated it in this thread or another but I have said that the biggest disadvantage would be in windy conditions. I do think cold and windy is probably worse. In any event my problem with Manning in windy condition would be no spiral and not enough arm. As far as Brady goes , I only watched a few Pat games. I reaaly don't know if his talents are starting to fall off. I only posted the article from the Boston Globe and asked what you people thought of it. I thought Brady's down field throws were off somwhtat , but I really didn't see enough of him this year to give it my best opinion. I do feel as you do. The loss was due to some horrible drops and a good job of the Pats covering and jamming the Pat receivers. I do think as great as Manning was , he now has a wseakness in his game and that is questionable arm strength. Let's put it this way . If I ranked the QBs in order from 1-10 and then did it for a January gae at NE with big winds , manning would plummet down on my list.

 

A case can be made for your staement that neither guy has "fallen off." That would be their stats and also their teams were the No 1 and No 2 seeds. It's my belief that as good as they are , they are both now starting to fall off. IMO , more so PM than Brady. manning is going to be 37 and history shows other than big armed QB's , this is when they rapidly decline. Was Pm still good in 2012 ... yep. I actually think he ay have been even more accurate than ever. Howevrer If I'm Denver and paying 20 mill a year , I'm praying for nice , mld , calm Sundays in January.

 

BTW... you are correct with Warner. He played well at 37 and 38. He didn't have a lot of milage as he started only 125 games (regular season) in his career but he was still an effective QB .. no doubt. So good point there.

There is no doubt that as they have aged their skills continue to slide a bit. I don't think anyone is thinking they haven't diminished slightly in Toms case and a little more in Peyton's after all his surgeries but I disagree with you in that I wouldn't want Peyton on the field for that game with the bad weather. It is more how the teams stack up then poor weather. Peyton definately played well enough to win that game. That first pick six...thats an interference call that should be made and if not well the pass was right in his receiver's hands...unfortunate it turned out that way but nothing Peyton could do. The sack fumble he took wouldn't have mattered weather or not...and I would say neither would have that last pick in which he threw across his body....very poor decision indoor or out. Fact was Peyton led an incredible drive late in the 4th to give his team a 7 point lead....a game winning drive. If his defense doesn't give up a hail mary touchdown with 30 seconds left where his safety made the worst play I've ever witnessed in any level of football that game would be over and the weather and age and if Tom or Peyton are slipping would be moot. One of those two would be in the Super Bowl and that team would be favored to win imo.

 

Your arguement for who you would rather have really seems silly to me though because out of all those qbs how many were playing in the playoffs? Fact is you got to have a qb to get you to those games in January. The fact Peyton has lost them only really means he was good enough to get his team to a chance to play for it all year in and year out. Peyton and Tom always put their team in position to win...you can't say that about 95% of the rest of the league. You may prefer to have a strong armed qb playing in that game in January but the fact is most can't get their team to that position.

 

Anyways I really got off topic...my main point was actually Brady and Manning both played very very well...but it was their team that lost...neither certainly LOST the game for them. You can't put all those dropped 3rd down passes and that fumble on Brady and certainly can't put a 70 yd hail mary on Peyton. It was a team loss for both as Baltimore made big plays when they needed them and their team didn't. I just don't see where age or skills played any part of these losses. Flacco certainly wasn't "sharpe" in the first half of NE and with the exception of 2 big deep mistakes by the Broncos didn't impress me either. He was very inconsistant on his throws so imo you could have said the weather affected him equally. Do I think the door is closing on these two great qbs....certainly. I think Denver is a player or two short in the secondary and in need of some speed at the wr position to replace stokely who i think Peyton had to throw open this year as I never saw the guy get separation. NE I wonder how long will Brady have the best offensive line in football. Will it hold together?? If it does and he has his full compliment of receivers...Gronk especially...they are dangerous because that defense is making a turn around under Bill.

[JWF]

I think both have probably have 2 good seasons left (capable of winning the SB type seasons that is).

If a Bronco safety didnt go brain dead in the last 40 seconds of a playoff game we'd be watching one of them in the SB right now.

[southwest1]

We agree to disagree I guess. I watch his game and  I don't see the good velocity on his throws that you do. I do agree that he is still a good QB as the Bronco record and PM stats would certainly indicate.  As far as the Raven int ,even  PM himself says "i didn't get as much on that throw as I would have liked to." You can trust me on that one or I'll be glad to find it for you. So even Manning admits that "velocity" which I consider to be "arm strength" had something to do with that int. 

 

So let me again state what I think is the issue. QB's don't gain arm strength at 37. So as far as this getting better , I doubt it. I'll also stick by what I posted at the beginning of the year concerning Manning and the Broncos. What I've contended as that if a team has to play a bad weather game in january , they need a strong armed QB or they will be at a major disadvantage. I said that Manning would be in trouble if they caught a bad outdoor Jan game. This IMO played true with the loss to the Ravens. Furthermore , the weather was just cold... no wind. Fact is yiu need to throw a nice tight spiral (like Luck throws) to play in heavey winds. Manning never in his best days threw a good spiral. I hate to be bashing a guy that I loved but the number of games he played in windy cold (or snowey) conditions ws something like 6 in all his years in the NFL. I did see this stat a few couple of years ago and was amazed by it. This is all JMO and you have yours which I really do respect.

Nice post here dw49. I ran out of likes. 5 thumbs up for you my friend.           I agree arm strength & muscle tone tends to naturally decline at some point. I don't put much stock in cold weather criticisms by others not saying that you said this per say. I just hope that strengthening his lower body & drafting more RBs will compensate for Manning's declining arm strength next season. 

[dw49]

There is no doubt that as they have aged their skills continue to slide a bit. I don't think anyone is thinking they haven't diminished slightly in Toms case and a little more in Peyton's after all his surgeries but I disagree with you in that I wouldn't want Peyton on the field for that game with the bad weather. It is more how the teams stack up then poor weather. Peyton definately played well enough to win that game. That first pick six...thats an interference call that should be made and if not well the pass was right in his receiver's hands...unfortunate it turned out that way but nothing Peyton could do. The sack fumble he took wouldn't have mattered weather or not...and I would say neither would have that last pick in which he threw across his body....very poor decision indoor or out. Fact was Peyton led an incredible drive late in the 4th to give his team a 7 point lead....a game winning drive. If his defense doesn't give up a hail mary touchdown with 30 seconds left where his safety made the worst play I've ever witnessed in any level of football that game would be over and the weather and age and if Tom or Peyton are slipping would be moot. One of those two would be in the Super Bowl and that team would be favored to win imo.

 

Your arguement for who you would rather have really seems silly to me though because out of all those qbs how many were playing in the playoffs? Fact is you got to have a qb to get you to those games in January. The fact Peyton has lost them only really means he was good enough to get his team to a chance to play for it all year in and year out. Peyton and Tom always put their team in position to win...you can't say that about 95% of the rest of the league. You may prefer to have a strong armed qb playing in that game in January but the fact is most can't get their team to that position.

 

Anyways I really got off topic...my main point was actually Brady and Manning both played very very well...but it was their team that lost...neither certainly LOST the game for them. You can't put all those dropped 3rd down passes and that fumble on Brady and certainly can't put a 70 yd hail mary on Peyton. It was a team loss for both as Baltimore made big plays when they needed them and their team didn't. I just don't see where age or skills played any part of these losses. Flacco certainly wasn't "sharpe" in the first half of NE and with the exception of 2 big deep mistakes by the Broncos didn't impress me either. He was very inconsistant on his throws so imo you could have said the weather affected him equally. Do I think the door is closing on these two great qbs....certainly. I think Denver is a player or two short in the secondary and in need of some speed at the wr position to replace stokely who i think Peyton had to throw open this year as I never saw the guy get separation. NE I wonder how long will Brady have the best offensive line in football. Will it hold together?? If it does and he has his full compliment of receivers...Gronk especially...they are dangerous because that defense is making a turn around under Bill.

 

 

Young man... when you say people are being "silly" and come up with something out of the "wild blue yonder" , that will annoy some of us but I'm OK with it. But just for the chuckles ... following please....

 

 

 

"Your arguement for who you would rather have really seems silly to me though because out of all those qbs how many were playing in the playoffs? Fact is you got to have a qb to get you to those games in January"

 

Where do I mention these "other QB's" in this thread. This wasn't even part of my thread. I never mentioned other QB's , yet alone ones with strong arms that didn't make the playoffs. I believe the only Qb's I mentioned in this thread were Brady , Favre , Elway and Manning. So lets not fabricate nonsense. All I doing was expressing my opinion that Manning's arm strength is falling by the wayside and look out if he has to play a january game in big winds next year at age 37. Guys that throw balls that are a bit wobbly and don't spiral do not as a rule fare well in windy conditions. BTW... the game at Denver had winds of around 8MPH , so that wasn't even a test. I guess some just like to twist turn and add when someone has a different viewpoint than they do. Once again , I'll repeat.. Manning had a great 2012 and is still a top 5 QB. Now IMO he did not have a good game in the cold , calm conditions in that opening playoff loss by the Broncos. If he comes back at age 37 and has even less zip on he ball , I'm of the opinion that if the broncos are to win a playoff game next year , they best pray for sun and calm. Now some of you think he has plenty of "zip." So there we will just have to agree to disagree. 

[dw49]

Nice post here dw49. I ran out of likes. 5 thumbs up for you my friend.           I agree arm strength & muscle tone tends to naturally decline at some point. I don't put much stock in cold weather criticisms by others not saying that you said this per say. I just hope that strengthening his lower body & drafting more RBs will compensate for Manning's declining arm strength next season.

 

I don't really want to keep going on this as it's just too unpopular of a subject. So I'll just say thanks for reading what I wrote no more.. no less. He's a great QB but it looks to me that he doesn't have a lot of arm left. If he doesn't lose anymore , which would be due to the fact that the age factor is compensated by nerve regeneration , he'l probably be great next year too. If he losses more velocity , his play will decline and God forbid he have to play in heavey winds. Gosh , it's not sacreligious stuff.

[dgambill]

Young man... when you say people are being "silly" and come up with something out of the "wild blue yonder" , that will annoy some of us but I'm OK with it. But just for the chuckles ... following please....

 

 

 

"Your arguement for who you would rather have really seems silly to me though because out of all those qbs how many were playing in the playoffs? Fact is you got to have a qb to get you to those games in January"

 

Where do I mention these "other QB's" in this thread. This wasn't even part of my thread. I never mentioned other QB's , yet alone ones with strong arms that didn't make the playoffs. I believe the only Qb's I mentioned in this thread were Brady , Favre , Elway and Manning. So lets not fabricate nonsense. All I doing was expressing my opinion that Manning's arm strength is falling by the wayside and look out if he has to play a january game in big winds next year at age 37. Guys that throw balls that are a bit wobbly and don't spiral do not as a rule fare well in windy conditions. BTW... the game at Denver had winds of around 8MPH , so that wasn't even a test. I guess some just like to twist turn and add when someone has a different viewpoint than they do. Once again , I'll repeat.. Manning had a great 2012 and is still a top 5 QB. Now IMO he did not have a good game in the cold , calm conditions in that opening playoff loss by the Broncos. If he comes back at age 37 and has even less zip on he ball , I'm of the opinion that if the broncos are to win a playoff game next year , they best pray for sun and calm. Now some of you think he has plenty of "zip." So there we will just have to agree to disagree. 

Look we disagree...I don't appreciate your trying to talk down to me because of my age. I'm a young 33 so perhaps my 20/20 vision isn't as clouded but I've played and watched plenty of football to know these two guys while perhaps losing a very small portion of their athleticism at their age more than make up for it with experience and knowledge. Peyton never had "plenty of zip". He isn't a strong armed qb and never was. Does he have plenty to put the ball where he needs to....oh certainly. Will he forever...definately not. I didn't mention any qbs either...as far as your arguement you said you had a big lists of qbs you want in a january playoff game...I'm simply stating as those playing right now....Peyton and Tom Brady definately be on my very short list...because outside them and perhaps Aaron Rogers you don't have the consistancy with other qbs to even put them playing in January. I don't live in a world of hypotheticals...fact is Peyton's age was absolutely no hinderance this season or for Brady. I've seen very little deteriation in their game. In arm strength...perhaps a little but that is probably the least important factor in what I want in a starting qb and his and Toms numbers prove that. Montana didnt have a strong arm and he did just fine.

 

I disagree with the assertion that their skills are slipping and it let them down. A poor choice in 2ot that shouldn't have even been played and a plethera of drops by receivers on 3rd down and an untimely fumble sealed this season for these two. A season that was probably one of the best for each. Statistics are all over the place to back me up...and they pass the eye test to me as well. I really feel we are watching two different games so I'll just say I disagree. Baring injuries these two will be right back next year duking it out for a chance at the super bowl and the weather will not matter one bit. How each TEAM plays will. If Peyton's defense plays that poorly he will lose again...and if Toms receivers let him down again...well they both will have a quick exit. If anything Peyton's arm will only get stronger with a full offseason to strengthen and work on his stamina. He has achieved so much already with an arm that was simply adequate...I just don't see why now people think his failures are because of it.

[amfootball]

Manning's decline is due to his neck not his age. This will be an issue going forward because his arm may never get back to where it was and his age will eventually factor in. But honestly, he has NEVER been good in adverse weather conditions. Check out his stats outside of the dome vs. inside. Not to mention below 35 degrees. He has never been good in wind or snow. This is why it was so mind boggling that he went to Denver and not San Fran.

 

I saw zero decline in Brady all year. If anything, I thought he had one of his best seasons. The guy is a maniac when it comes to his conditioning and throwing technique. His down field throws were less because he has no deep threat on the outside. When he did throw the deep ball, it looked fine to me. He often over threw Lloyd when he did miss him or Lloyd ran the wrong route which happened often.

[dw49]

Look we disagree...I don't appreciate your trying to talk down to me because of my age. I'm a young 33 so perhaps my 20/20 vision isn't as clouded but I've played and watched plenty of football to know these two guys while perhaps losing a very small portion of their athleticism at their age more than make up for it with experience and knowledge. Peyton never had "plenty of zip". He isn't a strong armed qb and never was. Does he have plenty to put the ball where he needs to....oh certainly. Will he forever...definately not. I didn't mention any qbs either...as far as your arguement you said you had a big lists of qbs you want in a january playoff game...I'm simply stating as those playing right now....Peyton and Tom Brady definately be on my very short list...because outside them and perhaps Aaron Rogers you don't have the consistancy with other qbs to even put them playing in January. I don't live in a world of hypotheticals...fact is Peyton's age was absolutely no hinderance this season or for Brady. I've seen very little deteriation in their game. In arm strength...perhaps a little but that is probably the least important factor in what I want in a starting qb and his and Toms numbers prove that. Montana didnt have a strong arm and he did just fine.

 

I disagree with the assertion that their skills are slipping and it let them down. A poor choice in 2ot that shouldn't have even been played and a plethera of drops by receivers on 3rd down and an untimely fumble sealed this season for these two. A season that was probably one of the best for each. Statistics are all over the place to back me up...and they pass the eye test to me as well. I really feel we are watching two different games so I'll just say I disagree. Baring injuries these two will be right back next year duking it out for a chance at the super bowl and the weather will not matter one bit. How each TEAM plays will. If Peyton's defense plays that poorly he will lose again...and if Toms receivers let him down again...well they both will have a quick exit. If anything Peyton's arm will only get stronger with a full offseason to strengthen and work on his stamina. He has achieved so much already with an arm that was simply adequate...I just don't see why now people think his failures are because of it.

 

 

 

I had no idea of how old you are , just a way to get your attention and let you know you are not going to slip nonsense by me. I'll ask you once again what in God's name are you talking about when you call something I asserted "silly" when I never said anything even close to what you post. Instead you just post your views over again. We have established that you think Manning has enough arm left and I feel he is losing enough where he's in trouble if he has to fight windy bad elements in Jan. p;ayoff games. Fine and I would never disparraging remarks or try to twist wha you say to make a better point. You on the other hand pull the below out of your .... Nowhere in this thread do I list a QB that I'd rather have. That was not the jist of the thread. So give me the QB's that I say I would rather have than Manning. The strong armed ones that can't lead their teams to the playoffs. No if you do want me to name the Qb's I would rather have going into 2013 , I'll be happy to list them. It's not a long list . The list would be much shorter if it only included the regular season or all good weathefr playoff games.

 

Anyway... once again. Where do you get this from...

 

"Your arguement for who you would rather have really seems silly to me though because out of all those qbs how many were playing in the playoffs? Fact is you got to have a qb to get you to those games in January."

[dgambill]

I had no idea of how old you are , just a way to get your attention and let you know you are not going to slip nonsense by me. I'll ask you once again what in God's name are you talking about when you call something I asserted "silly" when I never said anything even close to what you post. Instead you just post your views over again. We have established that you think Manning has enough arm left and I feel he is losing enough where he's in trouble if he has to fight windy bad elements in Jan. p;ayoff games. Fine and I would never disparraging remarks or try to twist wha you say to make a better point. You on the other hand pull the below out of your .... Nowhere in this thread do I list a QB that I'd rather have. That was not the jist of the thread. So give me the QB's that I say I would rather have than Manning. The strong armed ones that can't lead their teams to the playoffs. No if you do want me to name the Qb's I would rather have going into 2013 , I'll be happy to list them. It's not a long list . The list would be much shorter if it only included the regular season or all good weathefr playoff games.

 

Anyway... once again. Where do you get this from...

 

"Your arguement for who you would rather have really seems silly to me though because out of all those qbs how many were playing in the playoffs? Fact is you got to have a qb to get you to those games in January."

Look I'm done arguing. We don't see eye to eye. You didn't list any qbs...but you said Peyton would be way down your list for a qb in playing in January. My point was he would be at the top of mine. Honestly he has made it to the playoff like 10 yrs in a row that he has played. He and Tom are the class of the league...and still are performing above any other qbs in the league. Perhaps Aaron Rodgers is in that category but these two are the very best. Their stats and leadership prove it. I just thought it was "silly" that two guys that were basically finalist for MVP this year and had two of the finest seasons I've ever seen are slipping...and pointing out a couple poorly thrown balls in cold weather is the reason I just think is a big stretch. I saw two qbs that played good games that put their team in position to win the game but simply fell short because of a wing and a prayer and a poor case of butter fingers by a pro bowl wide receiver. I made my point....I was simply defending it because I disagreed with your comments. I have no intention of "slipping nonsense" by you....in my opinion....well I better stop to follow the rules of this forum...I simply think your accessment or regurgitation of others opinions is nonsense pretty much exactly the same way you see mine I guess.

[turner46992]

I know they both hoped to being playing at 40 but this is not how the NFL works. Did anyone notice how weak Manning's arm looked yesterday ? He can still play as he has a great O line , nice big fast WR's and still has all those smarts. However the Broncos just have to pray for warm January days with no wind or there will be no SB in Manning's "golden years." Here is something that shows some are thinking the "process " may be startig for Brady also. Bottom line is that of all the great QB's , I can only think of two that could still really play at 37 -38. That would be Elway and Favre and they both had rocket arms. I think Manning will still be OK next year at 37 but he will be very much affected in those bad weather games. From roto world...

 

 

 

 

 

The Providence Journal suggests that Tom Brady has entered his decline phase going on age 36.

The only noticeable decline in games has been Brady's downfield passing ability, but there are stats that support this notion. Brady's 2012 completion rate was his lowest since 2006, and his YPA was his worst since 2008. In December, Brady completed only 58.5 percent with a 7.0 YPA and five interceptions. The Providence Journal suggests "reducing Brady's workload" -- lessening his pass attempts while leaning more on Stevan Ridley and Shane Vereen.

Nice find, I am going to say I agree with a few people Mannings arm strength is a weakness for him, and his injury is just as accountable, brady is also coming down and its not as noticeable but we can see it if we look, These Elite Qbs are coming to there final years its time for the new elites like Luck, Grffin, and Wilson to fill the Roles new teams will be leading NFC and AFC to the big dance. So i cant say I didnt see it coming because but seeing it so soon just seem unreal to be honest. I thought these guys would be playing at there elite levels still into possibly early 40s now is that a stretch for a qb, sure but these 2 guys Brady and Manning are 2 different breads of a QB so its sad to see a generation die but Im excited to see if the new guys can cover the same ground these two did