Brady And Manning

[dw49]

I know they both hoped to being playing at 40 but this is not how the NFL works. Did anyone notice how weak Manning's arm looked yesterday ? He can still play as he has a great O line , nice big fast WR's and still has all those smarts. However the Broncos just have to pray for warm January days with no wind or there will be no SB in Manning's "golden years." Here is something that shows some are thinking the "process " may be startig for Brady also. Bottom line is that of all the great QB's , I can only think of two that could still really play at 37 -38. That would be Elway and Favre and they both had rocket arms. I think Manning will still be OK next year at 37 but he will be very much affected in those bad weather games. From roto world...

 

 

 

 

 

The Providence Journal suggests that Tom Brady has entered his decline phase going on age 36.

The only noticeable decline in games has been Brady's downfield passing ability, but there are stats that support this notion. Brady's 2012 completion rate was his lowest since 2006, and his YPA was his worst since 2008. In December, Brady completed only 58.5 percent with a 7.0 YPA and five interceptions. The Providence Journal suggests "reducing Brady's workload" -- lessening his pass attempts while leaning more on Stevan Ridley and Shane Vereen.

[southwest1]

I know they both hoped to being playing at 40 but this is not how the NFL works. Did anyone notice how weak Manning's arm looked yesterday ? He can still play as he has a great O line , nice big fast WR's and still has all those smarts. However the Broncos just have to pray for warm January days with no wind or there will be no SB in Manning's "golden years." Here is something that shows some are thinking the "process " may be startig for Brady also. Bottom line is that of all the great QB's , I can only think of two that could still really play at 37 -38. That would be Elway and Favre and they both had rocket arms. I think Manning will still be OK next year at 37 but he will be very much affected in those bad weather games. From roto world...

 

 

 

 

 

The Providence Journal suggests that Tom Brady has entered his decline phase going on age 36.

The only noticeable decline in games has been Brady's downfield passing ability, but there are stats that support this notion. Brady's 2012 completion rate was his lowest since 2006, and his YPA was his worst since 2008. In December, Brady completed only 58.5 percent with a 7.0 YPA and five interceptions. The Providence Journal suggests "reducing Brady's workload" -- lessening his pass attempts while leaning more on Stevan Ridley and Shane Vereen.

I'm going be honest here. Some of #18's throws did look like they fell short of their intended destination at the ProBowl yesterday. Was it due to a lack of working with different WR's that Peyton is not familiar with through training camp? I hope so. I'm hoping that with a full offseason Peyton can bulk up his lower body to compensate for arm strength that waivers at times. Power & accuracy on throws actually derives from a QB's legs, feet, &  shoulder placement not the arm alone. Let's see what #18 looks like with 1 full, offseason training program in Denver focusing primarily on his lower body.

 

Brady's problem is really not his fault. He needs a tight secondary & defense that can generate turnovers so that he is forced to play a perfect game in order to win the game. 

[MAC]

Actually Peyton threw some bullets yesterday - as he has all year. I have no idea what you are referring to. Sometimes I've gotten the impression this year that he is a bit erratic at first and then gets better as the game goes on. Since it was the pro-bowl his minutes were limited, and we never got to see the "warmed up" Peyton.

 

There is no doubt that his injury has limited him somewhat, but he is clearly still among the top QBs in the league. The playoff loss was in double overtime during the second coldest home game in Bronco's history. They don't need to pray for good weather, but it would be nice if they got average weather.

[southwest1]

Actually Peyton threw some bullets yesterday - as he has all year. I have no idea what you are referring to. Sometimes I've gotten the impression this year that he is a bit erratic at first and then gets better as the game goes on. Since it was the pro-bowl his minutes were limited, and we never got to see the "warmed up" Peyton.

 

There is no doubt that his injury has limited him somewhat, but he is clearly still among the top QBs in the league. The playoff loss was in double overtime during the second coldest home game in Bronco's history. They don't need to pray for good weather, but it would be nice if they got average weather.

Watch Peyton in the 2nd half of most of his games this year. By the 3rd quarter with about 5 minutes left, Manning seems to struggle throwing long balls especially across his body to the opposite hash mark & side of the field. Yesterday at the ProBowl, it was more than just a few balls getting away from him. The zip, velocity, & mustard was not on the ball as the game progressed. Again, I'm hoping core training on the lower body can fix this. I want #18 to strengthen his 2nd half endurance & I think he will. I will be patient.  

[BleedingBlue]

wow...brady threw like 38 TDs and 5 ints.

I'll take that productivity out of my QB any day.

[southwest1]

Watch Eli Manning who throws a consistent ball almost everytime including short, intermediate, & long throws & then watch his brother Peyton & you will see exactly what I mean. The key here is consistency all 4 quarters, which can be compensated/off set for Peyton with hopefully 1 full offseason. I haven't abandoned Yoda yet & I don't intend too. I still believe in Peyton. Just give him 1 offseason & several runningbacks to set up the play action pass...along with 3rd & short situations.

[BrentMc11]

I think I need to stay away from any topic that has the great  :manning: of the Denver Broncos and the grrr....grrrr....grrr....yeah uh grrr...QB of the Patriots :brady: !!!!     I might have to say they are declining and make someone's      

 

OH well....have fun....I wish I could have thrown in the NFL....or major leagues for that matter...at 36 and beyond

[dw49]

Actually Peyton threw some bullets yesterday - as he has all year. I have no idea what you are referring to. Sometimes I've gotten the impression this year that he is a bit erratic at first and then gets better as the game goes on. Since it was the pro-bowl his minutes were limited, and we never got to see the "warmed up" Peyton.

 

There is no doubt that his injury has limited him somewhat, but he is clearly still among the top QBs in the league. The playoff loss was in double overtime during the second coldest home game in Bronco's history. They don't need to pray for good weather, but it would be nice if they got average weathe

 

 

 

I'm referrig to Mannig's lack of arm strength. Does that help you out ? Have no idea in the world where you are seeing these "bullets." Then again on one hand you say he "limited" and then tak about "bullets" and ask what I'm talking about. So maybe you are just a little confused ... it happens. Also I did say he sill is a very good QB , but his arm strength will probably be an issue in the playoffs as the weather in january is often bad. 

[GoPats]

Neither guy has ever had the best arm in the league... that's not at all a criticism. Jay Cutler, for example, has a much stronger arm than either guy, but Jay Cutler is a terrible quarterback.

 

I think it'll be obvious to these guys, and the players and coaches around them, when their bodies just can't do it anymore. And we're not there... not yet.

[southwest1]

This is a legitimate question dw49: "Did anyone notice how weak Manning's arm looked yesterday?"  Good question and it deserves to be asked. I'm not trying to pour salt into a playoffs wound here; I respect Peyton tremendously & I want this problem fixed as quickly & as thoroughly as possible. Weather to me is not the issue, but strength & endurance is & how to fill that void late in the 2nd half. You can't ignore the problem anymore Pat Bowlen & John Elway must confront this issue head on. You don't throw #18 away; You say "Peyton you can't carry a team alone anymore. Here is how our organization will help you win a Championship." 

[DILLIGAFER]

Did anyone notice the 40 yard bomb he threw yesterday.. arm looked fine.

[BrentMc11]

Did anyone notice the 40 yard bomb he threw yesterday.. arm looked fine.

I did....but I wasn't gonna say anything....it was incomplete, but he threw it about 55 yards....but who was looking?  

[BrentMc11]

Did anyone notice the 40 yard bomb he threw yesterday.. arm looked fine.

Tom was home building a moat around his Castle de Giselle......I heard he threw a 60 yard strike with a bon bon........Now I can still do that 

[southwest1]

Neither guy has ever had the best arm in the league... that's not at all a criticism. Jay Cutler, for example, has a much stronger arm than either guy, but Jay Cutler is a terrible quarterback.

 

I think it'll be obvious to these guys, and the players and coaches around them, when their bodies just can't do it anymore. And we're not there... not yet.

 

Yes, I agree with you Peyton never had a cannon for an arm that's true, but when #18 has to make the hail mary throw, the ball has to have the velocity & distance to get where it needs to go. In 2004, 2005, 2006, 2008, & 2009 no questioned that. Now, a tiny sliver of doubt exists...Yes, when the body breaks down, Peyton will step down & retire gracefully. No Brett Favre fiasco circus in Denver. Thank God.  :whew: 

[dw49]

This is a legitimate question dw49: "Did anyone notice how weak Manning's arm looked yesterday?"  Good question and it deserves to be asked. I'm not trying to pour salt into a playoffs wound here; I respect Peyton tremendously & I want this problem fixed as quickly & as thoroughly as possible. Weather to me is not the issue, but strength & endurance is & how to fill that void late in the 2nd half. You can't ignore the problem anymore Pat Bowlen & John Elway must confront this issue head on. You don't throw #18 away; You say "Peyton you can't carry a team alone anymore. Here is how our organization will help you win a Championship." 

 

 

I agree with everything above and I'm not saying the Bronos should ditch Peyton Manning. What I'm getting at is he has issues with arm strength. This is should be obvious to all. When I bring Brady to the mix , I'm trying to point out that at 36-37 , your on your "last leg: as an NFL QB. This is just the hard truth. I'm not trying to "diss" PM. The harsh reality is more than likely his arm will be a little weaker next year as will Brady's. Now some might want to think maybe PM's injury will be better with time . Maybe , I hope that's true but more than likely he'll not being throwing with more velocity at 37 than he was at 36. Can the Denver win a SB with Manning ? Sure . it's possible. Do I think it will happen if they need a big game from PM and the weather is adverse ? IMO... no. nayone know whefre the SB is next year ?    

[MAC]

I'm referrig to Mannig's lack of arm strength. Does that help you out ? Have no idea in the world where you are seeing these "bullets." Then again on one hand you say he "limited" and then tak about "bullets" and ask what I'm talking about. So maybe you are just a little confused ... it happens. Also I did say he sill is a very good QB , but his arm strength will probably be an issue in the playoffs as the weather in january is often bad. 

Do you expect everyone to agree with you when you start a thread? [mod edit]

 

You said "Did anyone notice how weak Manning's arm looked yesterday ?" I replied that I saw him throwing bullets. He DID on multiple occasions. I didn't say that every pass was perfect, but he DID demonstrate ample arm strength, which runs counter to your primary assertion. Thus my conclusion that "I have no idea what you are talking about". Perhaps you should watch it again.

 

I didn't say that EVERY pass was a bullet. I said that during the year it seemed to me that he was often inconsistent at first,  then perhaps "warming up" as the games go on. I never said that HE was limited, I said that his MINUTES were limited YESTERDAY implying that he might have improved as the game went on, but didn't have the opportunity. By the way, this constitutes acknowledging that there is SOME residual impact from his injury. He isn't perfect, but he has adapted and is an MVP candidate. Thus I have some trouble with your general implication that it's all but over for him. Frankly there is an excellent chance that he will improve next year. Yes, extreme weather may be a problem, but I simply pointed out that the weather event in that playoff game was extraordinarily rare, as are double overtimes - which tax the stamina of all players. I don't believe that a typical January day in Denver will be a problem for him at all.

 

Consider the possibility that I'm not the one who is confused.

Edited January 28, 2013 by Superman
mod edit

[Superman]

FJC posted a chart last offseason showing how rarely Manning attempts passes more than 40 yards downfield. I don't feel like finding it now, but I believe in 2004, he attempted 2 passes of more than 40 yards, and completed 1 (I could be off slightly, but that's very close). The long ball has never been a significant part of his game, even in his most explosive season.

[tonychen]

I do feel his consistency has suffered in the mid-range throws which he used to thrive. His long-range looked improved since He very rarely completed 40+ passes in his last 2 seasons with Colts but now he dares to try and manages to complete more than 1 per game avg to Thomas.

 

Dont understand why he needs to wear the glove even in nice weather. Maybe his grab is still bad due to nerve damage?

[Jules]

Oh yeah, I have been saying this to people I know for months about Manning. But, it just became more evident to me about Brady recently. Both looked like fragile old men to me at times in the playoff losses vs. the Ravens and the bad news for the Broncos is that the SB is in NY next year and it could be freezing. It's not hating either. You can't fluff this stuff. Winning SBs is tough after the age of 35/36 and history proves it. If you have a bigger arm like Favre/Elway did you can sometimes make up for it though in later years. Just watch Favre's 2009 season some time and it looks even more amazing to me.

 

Both the Pats/Broncos might have to carry their QBs to a Super Bowl if it happens again and I honestly am not expecting either to hoist the Lombardi again unless either team relies less on the QB's arms and more on the run. By the time January begins both guys will be more worn down then a young QB even if they have a bye week.

 

I do think the Super Bowl matchup is very revealing with a big armed Flacco carrying his team to the big one vs. Kaepernick who is part of this new wave of young athletic QBs on the rise.

[Jules]

I do feel his consistency has suffered in the mid-range throws which he used to thrive. His long-range looked improved since He very rarely completed 40+ passes in his last 2 seasons with Colts but now he dares to try and manages to complete more than 1 per game avg to Thomas.

 

Dont understand why he needs to wear the glove even in nice weather. Maybe his grab is still bad due to nerve damage?

 

That caught me off guard too. I thought it was just for cold weather.

 

The whole thing with Manning/Brady has often been their cerebral approach to the game and it is effective. Both will help you win a ton of games. But, can they carry you in the playoffs now vs. the better teams? I am not so sure.......time will tell.

 

My advice: run the ball. Run it a lot. But, I get the feeling neither wants to do that enough. They still want to pass most of the time.

[ruksak]

Consider that Manning's arm may just be tired after all the time off. Some rest and rehab this off season will likely put some zip back into his passes. I know that 36 is getting up there for football age, but......he's still a young man and plenty capable of regaining strength that may have been lost, if any. 

 

I see this as more of a conditioning issue than a sign of permanent decline/loss.

[ruksak]

That caught me off guard too. I thought it was just for cold weather.

It was raining on and off at the PB. I heard that's why he wore it. I believe he was testing it during ideal circumstances. 

[Jules]

Manning will be 37 soon. Brady 36 I think before the season starts.

 

Time has really flied.......

 

The Pats have a better run game to me. And the Broncos were supposed to have this statistically great defense but I never was sold. These teams beat up on awful division rivals 6 times a year and I think sometimes the easy road to the playoffs is not always the best thing in the world to prepare you. I was much higher on NE though heading into the playoffs over Denver and after they lost to the Ravens again it is interesting to note how many issues the Pats have had vs. physical playoff teams; most notably the Giants and Ravens.

 

I also find it interesting the edge the NFC has had. The Broncos struggled vs. the one playoff team in the NFC they played. The Patriots went 1-3 vs. the NFC West.

 

Interestingly enough the Colts went 2-0 vs. the NFC playoff teams they faced.

[Jules]

It was raining on and off at the PB. I heard that's why he wore it. I believe he was testing it during ideal circumstances. 

 

Thanks.

[dw49]

Do you expect everyone to agree with you when you start a thread? [mod edit]

 

You said "Did anyone notice how weak Manning's arm looked yesterday ?" I replied that I saw him throwing bullets. He DID on multiple occasions. I didn't say that every pass was perfect, but he DID demonstrate ample arm strength, which runs counter to your primary assertion. Thus my conclusion that "I have no idea what you are talking about". Perhaps you should watch it again.

 

I didn't say that EVERY pass was a bullet. I said that during the year it seemed to me that he was often inconsistent at first,  then perhaps "warming up" as the games go on. I never said that HE was limited, I said that his MINUTES were limited YESTERDAY implying that he might have improved as the game went on, but didn't have the opportunity. By the way, this constitutes acknowledging that there is SOME residual impact from his injury. He isn't perfect, but he has adapted and is an MVP candidate. Thus I have some trouble with your general implication that it's all but over for him. Frankly there is an excellent chance that he will improve next year. Yes, extreme weather may be a problem, but I simply pointed out that the weather event in that playoff game was extraordinarily rare, as are double overtimes - which tax the stamina of all players. I don't believe that a typical January day in Denver will be a problem for him at all.

 

Consider the possibility that I'm not the one who is confused.

 

 

 

The above is all nonsense. You ask "what am I looking at " when I say his arm strength has diiminshed. Then you in the next breath say..

 

this is copied...

 

 

"There is no doubt that his injury has limited him somewhat, but he is clearly still among the top QBs in the league."

[tonychen]

That caught me off guard too. I thought it was just for cold weather.

 

The whole thing with Manning/Brady has often been their cerebral approach to the game and it is effective. Both will help you win a ton of games. But, can they carry you in the playoffs now vs. the better teams? I am not so sure.......time will tell.

 

My advice: run the ball. Run it a lot. But, I get the feeling neither wants to do that enough. They still want to pass most of the time.

 

Both Manning and Brady are going downhill and the trend will continue in the next few yrs. But their wont be a drastic drop until at least 2 yrs later I assume.

This is the nature of the sports. Younger generation like Luck and Russel Wilson will take over very soon.

 

Running the ball could really work for old QBs and that is why I think Manning should join the 49ers. But to let a QB running a pass-based system for almost all his career make such a huge change toward the end of the career might be too much. Also as far as both of them have got SB rings, the way they win the SB might mean even more than just winning it one more time.

[dw49]

Oh yeah, I have been saying this to people I know for months about Manning. But, it just became more evident to me about Brady recently. Both looked like fragile old men to me at times in the playoff losses vs. the Ravens and the bad news for the Broncos is that the SB is in NY next year and it could be freezing. It's not hating either. You can't fluff this stuff. Winning SBs is tough after the age of 35/36 and history proves it. If you have a bigger arm like Favre/Elway did you can sometimes make up for it though in later years. Just watch Favre's 2009 season some time and it looks even more amazing to me.

 

Both the Pats/Broncos might have to carry their QBs to a Super Bowl if it happens again and I honestly am not expecting either to hoist the Lombardi again unless either team relies less on the QB's arms and more on the run. By the time January begins both guys will be more worn down then a young QB even if they have a bye week.

 

I do think the Super Bowl matchup is very revealing with a big armed Flacco carrying his team to the big one vs. Kaepernick who is part of this new wave of young athletic QBs on the rise.

 

 

Gosh... just about my exact post beginning the tread. Right down to the Favre and Elway observation.

 

 

Thank you

[tonychen]

I also find it interesting the edge the NFC has had. The Broncos struggled vs. the one playoff team in the NFC they played. The Patriots went 1-3 vs. the NFC West.

 

Interestingly enough the Colts went 2-0 vs. the NFC playoff teams they faced.

 

After the domination of AFC for almost a whole decade till 2006, it is natural for the NFC to bounce back with better talents from the draft. Even around 2009 playing the NFC west was like a cake-walk but now it is such a tough division. Things just go back and forth under this system and it is fun for all teams' fans to have hope for the big one.

[dw49]

FJC posted a chart last offseason showing how rarely Manning attempts passes more than 40 yards downfield. I don't feel like finding it now, but I believe in 2004, he attempted 2 passes of more than 40 yards, and completed 1 (I could be off slightly, but that's very close). The long ball has never been a significant part of his game, even in his most explosive season

 

 

 If a QB loses arm strength , it affects far more than "passes over 40 yards." It affects off balace throws such as the one he threw accross his body in the 2nd OT. It affects 15-20 yard throws into tight windows in the middle of the field. You need arm strength to thow out patterns. I think most , including you are aware that as far as arm strength , there has been a big drop off starting with the 2010 season. Now If I were a huge PM optimist , I would say at 37 , he is going to regain this as the nerves can regenerate more. 

[southwest1]

Dont understand why he needs to wear the glove even in nice weather. Maybe his grab is still bad due to nerve damage?

I see this as more of a conditioning issue than a sign of permanent decline/loss.

Exactly, 2 valid points regarding nerve damage & conditioning. Well said gentlemen! Well said. Nothing profound to say here other than ruksak, tonychen, & Jules are right on point like always. Yes Jules, I'm aware that you are a lady & not a gentlemen. HA! HA! Sorry about that...Poor choice of phrasing there.

[southwest1]

I agree with everything above and I'm not saying the Bronos should ditch Peyton Manning. What I'm getting at is he has issues with arm strength. This is should be obvious to all. 

I get it dw49. I wasn't directing my throw away #18 comment at you per say...Just people that think I am being unnecessarily harsh, cruel, & unfair toward Peyton Manning. I admire forum bloggers that don't shy away from tough questions that must be asked & answered...That's all I'm saying. Nice work dw49! 

[dgambill]

We are honestly talking about an exhibition game? I imagine Peyton did not warm up or approach this game as a regular season game. Peyton had probably his second best season (numbers) of his career. He and Brady are both viable MVP candidates and will probably finish 2nd and 3rd to AP. While clearly he doesn't have Favre like arm strength he is definately adequate enough. He has always thrown wobbly balls. He has never had a tight spiral. He has always been incredibly accurate but first and foremost beats teams by knowing when and where a receiver will be open and anticipating it and delivering. He was one of the league leaders in TD passes of more than 20yds. I think everyone is just looking to pile on the two hall of famers. The reason why it was hard for both to throw deep is teams know the best chance is to take away deep strikes by playing 2 deep safety's and letting them run. Would you want to throw deep with Ed Reed 25 yds off the ball???? I think not. Most teams dare qbs to throw it....Peyton and Brady get dared to run it.

 

He used the glove because of the weather...he is always testing stuff. He used it during the season because he knew he would need it in the playoffs. Big Ben uses a glove a lot too....is his arm declining?? Every receiver in the game uses gloves because it gives them better grip. Peyton knows he hasn't ever thrown well in cold weather and is smart enough to try to better his chances. I just think this is being blown way out of proportion. Brady's guys dropped passes on 3rd down. Peyton's guys didn't get seperation from the Raven defenders and they dropped 6 and 7 even into coverage. Finally Peyton's safety gave up a 70+ TD with under a minute left by making the worst defensive play in the history or we would have seen one of these two in the super bowl and saying right now...truely these are the two best qbs of our generation.

[Superman]

 If a QB loses arm strength , it affects far more than "passes over 40 yards." It affects off balace throws such as the one he threw accross his body in the 2nd OT. It affects 15-20 yard throws into tight windows in the middle of the field. You need arm strength to thow out patterns. I think most , including you are aware that as far as arm strength , there has been a big drop off starting with the 2010 season. Now If I were a huge PM optimist , I would say at 37 , he is going to regain this as the nerves can regenerate more. 

 

I wasn't attempting to refute anything anyone else said. But I do think it's relevant that the downfield throwing isn't a huge part of Manning's game. In general, that should help him make whatever transition is necessary to keep playing at a high level.

 

I would disagree with the idea that arm strength had anything to do with the interception in the Ravens game. And in watching Manning, including in the Ravens game, the outs were on target with good velocity, the throws were getting through tight windows, and his arm looked fine. Earlier this season there was speculation that he couldn't throw to his left, and I've seen him at various times this season throw bullets to the left and the right.

 

His arm probably isn't as strong as it was earlier in his career, but I don't think it's that significant a factor. And I do think his nerve regeneration is still a work in progress, so his arm could potentially get stronger still.

[Superman]

He used the glove because of the weather...he is always testing stuff. He used it during the season because he knew he would need it in the playoffs. Big Ben uses a glove a lot too....is his arm declining??

 

The glove has nothing to do with his arm, it's about his grip. He's admitted that his grip isn't 100% because of the nerve damage, and he's not sure it will get back to 100%. I think he's smart to wear the glove. It takes some getting used to, but it definitely improves your ability to handle the ball.

[Jules]

Both Manning and Brady are going downhill and the trend will continue in the next few yrs. But their wont be a drastic drop until at least 2 yrs later I assume.

This is the nature of the sports. Younger generation like Luck and Russel Wilson will take over very soon.

 

Running the ball could really work for old QBs and that is why I think Manning should join the 49ers. But to let a QB running a pass-based system for almost all his career make such a huge change toward the end of the career might be too much. Also as far as both of them have got SB rings, the way they win the SB might mean even more than just winning it one more time.

 

Even if he was on the 49ers would he be as committed as Jim Harbaugh is to running the football though? That's the thing to me, it's not just enough to have the ability to run there has to be a commitment too with a balanced attack, a mindset. I thought NE might be on that road this past season with the run game but still I don't think anyone is fearful of the NE ground game.

 

But, like you said it is tough to change what you are used to near the end of your career.

 

 

After the domination of AFC for almost a whole decade till 2006, it is natural for the NFC to bounce back with better talents from the draft. Even around 2009 playing the NFC west was like a cake-walk but now it is such a tough division. Things just go back and forth under this system and it is fun for all teams' fans to have hope for the big one.

 

Oh I agree. I think this coming Super Bowl might be telling too if we can see the AFC break through again.

 

 

In the AFC though you have to think there might be slightly more desperation at this point with John Elway then there is with NE. NE despite the recent misses has still been to a few SBs despite losing them and does not usually go one and done. With the Broncos they brought Manning to take this team where Tebow left off. I always felt like there was going to be a lot more pressure on Manning in Denver when all is said and done then he ever would have received in Indy where win or lose he was revered. JMO.

 

If pressed between the two I would give Brady a better shot in the near future to get back to the SB over Manning. Mostly because Brady has the better head coach. I still do not trust John Fox.

[MAC]

Earlier this season there was speculation that he couldn't throw to his left, and I've seen him at various times this season throw bullets to the left and the right.

There is even an interview with David Cutcliff in which he laugh's in recollection of hearing that speculation when they were working at Duke, because he felt that Manning was actually throwing better to his left than to his right.

 

[jjcolts]

Neither guy has ever had the best arm in the league... that's not at all a criticism. Jay Cutler, for example, has a much stronger arm than either guy, but Jay Cutler is a terrible quarterback.

 

I think it'll be obvious to these guys, and the players and coaches around them, when their bodies just can't do it anymore. And we're not there... not yet.

I always get confused when people say Manning's throw wasn't hard enough, or it was wobbly.....

It has always been that way.

 

And I definitely did not see a declining Tom Brady this year.

[Qwiz]

These guys are going to be playing for at least three more years barring injury, and I suspect at a high level. They have good teams too, so that should help them out.

[dw49]

I wasn't attempting to refute anything anyone else said. But I do think it's relevant that the downfield throwing isn't a huge part of Manning's game. In general, that should help him make whatever transition is necessary to keep playing at a high level.

 

I would disagree with the idea that arm strength had anything to do with the interception in the Ravens game. And in watching Manning, including in the Ravens game, the outs were on target with good velocity, the throws were getting through tight windows, and his arm looked fine. Earlier this season there was speculation that he couldn't throw to his left, and I've seen him at various times this season throw bullets to the left and the right.

 

His arm probably isn't as strong as it was earlier in his career, but I don't think it's that significant a factor. And I do think his nerve regeneration is still a work in progress, so his arm could potentially get stronger still

 

We agree to disagree I guess. I watch his game and  I don't see the good velocity on his throws that you do. I do agree that he is still a good QB as the Bronco record and PM stats would certainly indicate.  As far as the Raven int ,even  PM himself says "i didn't get as much on that throw as I would have liked to." You can trust me on that one or I'll be glad to find it for you. So even Manning admits that "velocity" which I consider to be "arm strength" had something to do with that int. 

 

So let me again state what I think is the issue. QB's don't gain arm strength at 37. So as far as this getting better , I doubt it. I'll also stick by what I posted at the beginning of the year concerning Manning and the Broncos. What I've contended as that if a team has to play a bad weather game in january , they need a strong armed QB or they will be at a major disadvantage. I said that Manning would be in trouble if they caught a bad outdoor Jan game. This IMO played true with the loss to the Ravens. Furthermore , the weather was just cold... no wind. Fact is yiu need to throw a nice tight spiral (like Luck throws) to play in heavey winds. Manning never in his best days threw a good spiral. I hate to be bashing a guy that I loved but the number of games he played in windy cold (or snowey) conditions ws something like 6 in all his years in the NFL. I did see this stat a few couple of years ago and was amazed by it. This is all JMO and you have yours which I really do respect.

[Superman]

We agree to disagree I guess. I watch his game and  I don't see the good velocity on his throws that you do. I do agree that he is still a good QB as the Bronco record and PM stats would certainly indicate.  As far as the Raven int ,even  PM himself says "i didn't get as much on that throw as I would have liked to." You can trust me on that one or I'll be glad to find it for you. So even Manning admits that "velocity" which I consider to be "arm strength" had something to do with that int. 

 

If that's what he said, so be it. But I think most quarterbacks would say that when they're trying to complete a pass that they know they shouldn't be throwing, and it gets intercepted. There's a reason you're not supposed to throw back across your body there, and it's because it's hard to get as much on that throw as you'd like. It's a tough throw to make, even when the receiver is wide open. As it happened, the defender stepped in front of it and picked it off. I don't think even a rocket would have been completed, because it was a poor decision to throw that pass to that receiver right there. 

 

I just don't think that interception had anything to do with the velocity of the throw. It was just a bad throw.

 

And again, there are tons of throws he made over the course of the season that had plenty of pop on them. He actually seemed to get stronger as the year went on.

 

 

So let me again state what I think is the issue. QB's don't gain arm strength at 37. So as far as this getting better , I doubt it. I'll also stick by what I posted at the beginning of the year concerning Manning and the Broncos. What I've contended as that if a team has to play a bad weather game in january , they need a strong armed QB or they will be at a major disadvantage. I said that Manning would be in trouble if they caught a bad outdoor Jan game. This IMO played true with the loss to the Ravens. Furthermore , the weather was just cold... no wind. Fact is yiu need to throw a nice tight spiral (like Luck throws) to play in heavey winds. Manning never in his best days threw a good spiral. I hate to be bashing a guy that I loved but the number of games he played in windy cold (or snowey) conditions ws something like 6 in all his years in the NFL. I did see this stat a few couple of years ago and was amazed by it. This is all JMO and you have yours which I really do respect.

 

Cool deal.

 

Just, to the bolded, though... Most quarterbacks don't gain arm strength at 37. But given the medical condition he's dealt with for however long, if the doctors think there's a chance for his nerves to regenerate back to pre-injury levels, then his arm could get back to where it was before he started feeling the effects of his injury. It's a unique situation for a 37 year old quarterback. The reality is that he just played an entire season injured, and put up 37 touchdowns and 4700 yards, both the second highest totals of his career. He might not get stronger, but I think it will be okay.

 

But if he was slowly losing arm strength since 2006 (many have speculated the hit against the Redskins was the genesis of this problem), then it very well could be that we could see him regain some of that nerve capacity and his arm could get stronger. Like you said earlier, that's probably the optimist's view. The odds might not be in his favor there. But it's a unique situation.

 

Either way, like we both said, Manning with nerve damage is still pretty doggone good.