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Is Jim Caldwell A Puppet?


presto123
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No I was on the wrong page as him. I thought he was talking about the overall role with the team. He was talking about the Collins signing specificly and gave the link to back it up.

The link was about going after Collins, but I still believe Caldwell was talking about the grand scheme of things. He's one that chooses his words carefully, so I'll have to stick with his words.

I think Caldwell is very good at game planning. He does seem to strugle at adjusting on the fly that could be a product of being a young coach as well. I agree his clock management is strange at best but hey he didn't use timeouts last night so maye he's learning.

You like to under sell Caldwell a lot. You tend to say the first thing that goes wrong it is his fault, then when something goes right (all the injuries last season and the perfromance last night) and you try to give anyone credit but him. He is 26-10 and no matter how much you dislike him his record is what it is used to judge him. He's also been to as many Super Bowls as the rest of the coaches of the Indianapolis Colts combined.

I think Caldwell is a middle of the pack NFL coach. He's not great but he's not as bad as some of our fans would like him to be.

I've used the me in a Ferrari and Andretti in a pinto analogy before. You put us both in a Civic, or Charger, or whatever and Andretti would beat me from point a to point be. Put me int he Ferrari and Andretti's only chance is if I crash it. One could argue Caldwell has crashed it in each of his seasons.

His record is what it is, and it can't be argued as a statistical fact. However many opinions can be formed on how and why and who is responsible for that record. He'd be great in a position of Director of Football Operations, or something along those lines. I think we are 26-10 in spite of him more than 26-10 because of him. George Seiefert took over for Walsh and won the Bowl his first year. Walked into a loaded team and kept things as is and won it all. Made the playoffs every year in SF but one. He lost more games in 3 years in Carolina than he did in 8 in San Fran. Did he forget how to coach? Of course not, the talent level wasn't anywhere near what it was. I'd be willing to bet that Seifert would be successful here. I think it would take a horrible coach to really fail with this team's talent, and that many bad coaches would still have solid/winning records. I don't think Caldwell is middle of the pack in the AFC South. I'd clearly take Kubiak and Del Rio over him. Each of them has years of experience running one side of the ball. Fisher? Sure, you better believe he would be an upgrade, the new guy? I don't have an opinion on that yet. Caldwell has two division titles over those guys, but he's by far the worst coach of the three that coached in the AFC South last year. He's just the wrong man for the job at the wrong time. He would be better suited as head coach once Manning retires.

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The link was about going after Collins, but I still believe Caldwell was talking about the grand scheme of things. He's one that chooses his words carefully, so I'll have to stick with his words.

I've used the me in a Ferrari and Andretti in a pinto analogy before. You put us both in a Civic, or Charger, or whatever and Andretti would beat me from point a to point be. Put me int he Ferrari and Andretti's only chance is if I crash it. One could argue Caldwell has crashed it in each of his seasons.

His record is what it is, and it can't be argued as a statistical fact. However many opinions can be formed on how and why and who is responsible for that record. He'd be great in a position of Director of Football Operations, or something along those lines. I think we are 26-10 in spite of him more than 26-10 because of him. George Seiefert took over for Walsh and won the Bowl his first year. Walked into a loaded team and kept things as is and won it all. Made the playoffs every year in SF but one. He lost more games in 3 years in Carolina than he did in 8 in San Fran. Did he forget how to coach? Of course not, the talent level wasn't anywhere near what it was. I'd be willing to bet that Seifert would be successful here. I think it would take a horrible coach to really fail with this team's talent, and that many bad coaches would still have solid/winning records. I don't think Caldwell is middle of the pack in the AFC South. I'd clearly take Kubiak and Del Rio over him. Each of them has years of experience running one side of the ball. Fisher? Sure, you better believe he would be an upgrade, the new guy? I don't have an opinion on that yet. Caldwell has two division titles over those guys, but he's by far the worst coach of the three that coached in the AFC South last year. He's just the wrong man for the job at the wrong time. He would be better suited as head coach once Manning retires.

He also won another Super Bowl down the road with Young with a pretty much rebuilt team from the one he took over from Walsh...you left that part out. I think the deal in Carolina it was after Polian left and frankly they were a poorly run franchise for a few years.

You would really take Del Rio over Caldwell? I could listen to the Kubiak arguement, I think he's better than people give him credit for however Del Rio has kept his job several times because he's cheap and does just enough to keep his job. His teams have been known for being one thing under achieving.

I wont argue Fisher, I thought he was one of the best coaches in the NFL. You don't last as long as he did and not be good.

If I ranked the coaches in the AFC South you have to throw the new guy with the Titans out because we don't know about him yet. I would go Caldwell number one, till he starts losing you have to go with the guy who is 26-10 and the only one in the division to win a division title and go to a Super Bowl as a head coach. You can try to do anything in the world to give anyone you want credit for that but he's the head coach. If he gets the blame when things go wrong he gets the credit when we win. 2. I would say Kubiak. 3. Del Rio.

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He also won another Super Bowl down the road with Young with a pretty much rebuilt team from the one he took over from Walsh...you left that part out. I think the deal in Carolina it was after Polian left and frankly they were a poorly run franchise for a few years.

You would really take Del Rio over Caldwell? I could listen to the Kubiak arguement, I think he's better than people give him credit for however Del Rio has kept his job several times because he's cheap and does just enough to keep his job. His teams have been known for being one thing under achieving.

I wont argue Fisher, I thought he was one of the best coaches in the NFL. You don't last as long as he did and not be good.

If I ranked the coaches in the AFC South you have to throw the new guy with the Titans out because we don't know about him yet. I would go Caldwell number one, till he starts losing you have to go with the guy who is 26-10 and the only one in the division to win a division title and go to a Super Bowl as a head coach. You can try to do anything in the world to give anyone you want credit for that but he's the head coach. If he gets the blame when things go wrong he gets the credit when we win. 2. I would say Kubiak. 3. Del Rio.

I'd take Del Rio all day long over Caldwell. He's never had a quarterback like Manning, not that many coaches have, but he's been limited from an offensive perspective with mediocre at best qb's. Kubiak, I feel gets a lot out of Schaub. I think they will be better defensively with Wade Phillips if Mario Williams takes to the OLB position and if he does, and Manning misses time, or starts slow they will likely win the division. He's the man with the title, but to me he's not the reason we've been 26-10. I'd clearly take Belichick, and Ryan from the East, Tomlin & Harbaugh from the North. From the West I'd take Turner & Fox, & Haley over Caldwell. I'd lump him in with Sparano, Gailey, Marvin Lewis, with the guy from Oakland, Cleveland and Tennessee being left out of the conversation since they are 1st year coaches. So that's 9 AFC coaches that I would take over him and that doesn't even include the guys that have been fired over the past few years that would be an upgrade.

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I'd take Del Rio all day long over Caldwell. He's never had a quarterback like Manning, not that many coaches have, but he's been limited from an offensive perspective with mediocre at best qb's. Kubiak, I feel gets a lot out of Schaub. I think they will be better defensively with Wade Phillips if Mario Williams takes to the OLB position and if he does, and Manning misses time, or starts slow they will likely win the division. He's the man with the title, but to me he's not the reason we've been 26-10. I'd clearly take Belichick, and Ryan from the East, Tomlin & Harbaugh from the North. From the West I'd take Turner & Fox, & Haley over Caldwell. I'd lump him in with Sparano, Gailey, Marvin Lewis, with the guy from Oakland, Cleveland and Tennessee being left out of the conversation since they are 1st year coaches. So that's 9 AFC coaches that I would take over him and that doesn't even include the guys that have been fired over the past few years that would be an upgrade.

We'll see, how many times have the Jags supposed to be the team to dethrown the Colts only to struggle to a 10-6 or 9-7 record? No the Jags have never had a QB like Manning but the Colts have never had a defense like they had and haven't had a back like MJD since before Edge blew out his knee.

As for the Texans Schaub is a pretty good QB and I don't think that's all because of Kubiak. He showed signs of being good in Atlanta. He's just a good player period. We'll see what happens with the Texans defense. Still if it's Wade Phillips that turns it around isn't that more of a product of Phillips than it is Kubiak? If you to give Caldwell's credit to Manning you can't turn around and say Kubiak gets credit for something someone else does.

I think everyone in the league just about would take Belichick over their coach. That's a no duh move. Ryan is pretty good I have to give him credit for that. I would take Caldwell over either of the other coaches in the AFC East. I would also agree about Tomlin and Harbaugh. Out west, I think I would stick with Caldwell over any of those guys. Norv Turner is living proof it takes more than talent to win in this league. You could argue the Chargers have had more talent than anyone else in the NFL since he's been there yet they haven't been to any Super Bowls and own something like one playoff win over a team not named the Colts. Fox has not done a lot since taking the Panthers to a Super Bowl in 03. He has been a decent coach. Frankly I think he's about where Caldwell is. Haley has to prove he's more than a one year wonder.

Like I said Caldwell is a middle of the pack coach. I do think he's the best in his divison right now. Caldwell is a combined 10-2 vs. the other coaches in his division. He's doing something right.

I think if you ranked the AFC coaches right now it would go

1. Belichick

2. Tomlin

3. Harbaugh

4. Ryan

5. Caldwell

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The thing that Kubiak and Del Rio have going for them is they played in the NFL and they seem to adjust better on the fly than Caldwell.

Kubiak is a better game planner simply because he was Elway’s backup and that's what he did for years. He was actually wearing a headset as a backup quarterback and he went very quickly from being a backup quarterback to a quarterback coach. It was obvious back then he would go far into coaching.

Del Rio was a nasty linebacker who had the respect of the NFL as a player so he knows how to fire his team up and get the most out of his players. He also looks for tough players to add to his team. Del Rio falls short when trying to develop a quarterback and an explosive offense. He wants to play old school ball by running and playing good defense. The NFL is passing him by though because with it being such a quarterback driven league, it is hard to win using old school philosophies.

Caldwell doesn’t have the player experience and it hurts him at times. He seems to do a very good job at teaching technique. Players drafted in Caldwell’s era have more often than not played sooner than later outside of Moala and Hughes. Dungy would bring younger players along much slower unless he just had to play them. Brown, Powers, Collie, Angerer, Eldridge, and Conner were all drafted in Caldwell’s era and all played big roles early in their careers. Castonzo and Nevis are doing the same this year. Dungy waited until half way through Freeney’s rookie season to let him loose. That being said, Dungy has started rookies out of desperation such as starting Jason David and Von Hutchins at corner the first game of the 2004 season against the Patriots. He also started Antoine Bethea early simply because we didn’t have anyone else besides Sanders at safety at the time.

What I am saying is they are all different and have their own unique specializations. This means they also have different weaknesses. Caldwell needs to hire someone to tell him when to use a timeout, but he will learn this stuff in time (I hope). Del Rio needs to get a high profile offensive coordinator (Dirk Koetter sucks), and Kubiak has addressed his shortcomings by bringing in Wade Phillips.

Right now I would have to say that Kubiak is the better coach of the three, because he has the experience and the pieces around him to be successful. Caldwell needs time to learn time management. It’s just a matter of time before it sinks in for him. He has to admit to himself that he has made mistakes first though and I am not sure is capable of doing that. Only time will tell. Del Rio has absolutely no idea how to run an offense nor does he know how to tell if anyone else does. So Del Rio takes home the prize of the Stooge in the AFC South. That being said Caldwell has out-stooged him before.

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We'll see, how many times have the Jags supposed to be the team to dethrown the Colts only to struggle to a 10-6 or 9-7 record? No the Jags have never had a QB like Manning but the Colts have never had a defense like they had and haven't had a back like MJD since before Edge blew out his knee.

As for the Texans Schaub is a pretty good QB and I don't think that's all because of Kubiak. He showed signs of being good in Atlanta. He's just a good player period. We'll see what happens with the Texans defense. Still if it's Wade Phillips that turns it around isn't that more of a product of Phillips than it is Kubiak? If you to give Caldwell's credit to Manning you can't turn around and say Kubiak gets credit for something someone else does.

I think everyone in the league just about would take Belichick over their coach. That's a no duh move. Ryan is pretty good I have to give him credit for that. I would take Caldwell over either of the other coaches in the AFC East. I would also agree about Tomlin and Harbaugh. Out west, I think I would stick with Caldwell over any of those guys. Norv Turner is living proof it takes more than talent to win in this league. You could argue the Chargers have had more talent than anyone else in the NFL since he's been there yet they haven't been to any Super Bowls and own something like one playoff win over a team not named the Colts. Fox has not done a lot since taking the Panthers to a Super Bowl in 03. He has been a decent coach. Frankly I think he's about where Caldwell is. Haley has to prove he's more than a one year wonder.

Like I said Caldwell is a middle of the pack coach. I do think he's the best in his divison right now. Caldwell is a combined 10-2 vs. the other coaches in his division. He's doing something right.

I think if you ranked the AFC coaches right now it would go

1. Belichick

2. Tomlin

3. Harbaugh

4. Ryan

5. Caldwell

No offense but Caldwell top 5 AFC is laughable. He's barely top 5 AFC South since 2008, and there have only been 6 coaches. IC: Dungy, Caldwell, Hou: Kubiak, Jax: Del Rio, Ten: Fisher, Munchak. If Munchak pans out he could knock him out of the top 5 in the South.

Kubiak/Phillips: If the Texans defense improves I think each have to be given credit. Phillips for installing the 3-4, Kubiak for bringing him. Not a lot of coaches will bring in someone with that level of experience because if that improvement looks like it comes mostly from the new coach, that could make the front office make a change.

I'm not giving Caldwell's credit to Manning, I'm giving Manning's credit to Manning, and maybe that is key difference, because the people that keep propping Caldwell up as a good coach, it seems they feel he's the main reason for any Colts success. If someone believes that then I feel sorry for them. Kubiak does more for Schaub, than Caldwell does for Manning. That should be crystal clear to anyone. Kubiak has far more say in that offense than Caldwell does in the Colts, and that is years from being a back up qb, offensive coordinator. One of the reasons he's better suited for his job than Caldwell.

There are 32 coaches in the NFL and outside of the ones I haven't formed an opinion on there isn't one single name I would take Caldwell over. There are a couple that are similar, and then another group i would prefer to Caldwell that have been fired or quit over the past 3 years. So again

So again it seems that you've got Caldwell pedestal that we are going to be a contender with Collins or Painter starting all 16 games if the worst case scenario happens. He is 10-2 vs. the South, and he's 26-10, and all. Well, he's 10-2, and 26-10 more because of Peyton Manning than he is of his coaching ability. So i guess we have a difference of opinion of who is more valuable to the Colts Manning or Caldwell.

nflcoaches.jpg

The thing that Kubiak and Del Rio have going for them is they played in the NFL and they seem to adjust better on the fly than Caldwell.

Kubiak is a better game planner simply because he was Elway’s backup and that's what he did for years. He was actually wearing a headset as a backup quarterback and he went very quickly from being a backup quarterback to a quarterback coach. It was obvious back then he would go far into coaching.

Del Rio was a nasty linebacker who had the respect of the NFL as a player so he knows how to fire his team up and get the most out of his players. He also looks for tough players to add to his team. Del Rio falls short when trying to develop a quarterback and an explosive offense. He wants to play old school ball by running and playing good defense. The NFL is passing him by though because with it being such a quarterback driven league, it is hard to win using old school philosophies.

Caldwell doesn’t have the player experience and it hurts him at times. He seems to do a very good job at teaching technique. Players drafted in Caldwell’s era have more often than not played sooner than later outside of Moala and Hughes. Dungy would bring younger players along much slower unless he just had to play them. Brown, Powers, Collie, Angerer, Eldridge, and Conner were all drafted in Caldwell’s era and all played big roles early in their careers. Castonzo and Nevis are doing the same this year. Dungy waited until half way through Freeney’s rookie season to let him loose. That being said, Dungy has started rookies out of desperation such as starting Jason David and Von Hutchins at corner the first game of the 2004 season against the Patriots. He also started Antoine Bethea early simply because we didn’t have anyone else besides Sanders at safety at the time.

What I am saying is they are all different and have their own unique specializations. This means they also have different weaknesses. Caldwell needs to hire someone to tell him when to use a timeout, but he will learn this stuff in time (I hope). Del Rio needs to get a high profile offensive coordinator (Dirk Koetter sucks), and Kubiak has addressed his shortcomings by bringing in Wade Phillips.

Right now I would have to say that Kubiak is the better coach of the three, because he has the experience and the pieces around him to be successful. Caldwell needs time to learn time management. It’s just a matter of time before it sinks in for him. He has to admit to himself that he has made mistakes first though and I am not sure is capable of doing that. Only time will tell. Del Rio has absolutely no idea how to run an offense nor does he know how to tell if anyone else does. So Del Rio takes home the prize of the Stooge in the AFC South. That being said Caldwell has out-stooged him before.

Strong post, but when you have a Hall of Fame Quarterback in the final years of his career you don't bring in a coach that needs on-the-job training or training wheels, especially when there were far better options out there.

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Strong post, but when you have a Hall of Fame Quarterback in the final years of his career you don't bring in a coach that needs on-the-job training or training wheels, especially when there were far better options out there.

Thanks.

And this is why we have to just ride it out with Caldwell and hope he improves on his shortcomings. I don’t think it would be a good idea to bring a new philosophy into our team right now. When Peyton leaves then if Caldwell is a bad coach, it will show 10-fold. We are better off just keeping the system we have and going full speed ahead. We have the pieces we need to make a serious Super Bowl run for the next few years.

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Thanks.

And this is why we have to just ride it out with Caldwell and hope he improves on his shortcomings. I don’t think it would be a good idea to bring a new philosophy into our team right now. When Peyton leaves then if Caldwell is a bad coach, it will show 10-fold. We are better off just keeping the system we have and going full speed ahead. We have the pieces we need to make a serious Super Bowl run for the next few years.

My main argument is that he should have never been hired because he wasn't qualified. We missed the chance of making a change when Manning didn't pitch a fit after the season ended. Even then we would have been better off making a change and bringing in a defensive minded coach and retaining Moore and whoever else to keep the offense up and running. Similar to what we did when we brought in Dungy. Rob Ryan would have been a great hire. We can hope for improvement but he seems to be very stuck in his ways. We have the pieces. We will just have to beat the opponents, and our coaching staff to make a serious Super Bowl run.

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My main argument is that he should have never been hired because he wasn't qualified. We missed the chance of making a change when Manning didn't pitch a fit after the season ended. Even then we would have been better off making a change and bringing in a defensive minded coach and retaining Moore and whoever else to keep the offense up and running. Similar to what we did when we brought in Dungy. Rob Ryan would have been a great hire. We can hope for improvement but he seems to be very stuck in his ways. We have the pieces. We will just have to beat the opponents, and our coaching staff to make a serious Super Bowl run.

I am not going to argue that Caldwell should have never been hired in the first place. He wasn't qualified for the job. I have said that several times myself.

But right now this is what we have. And we only have 3-5 years left of Peyton. 5 years if he stays healthy, but we (all Colts fans) need to be realistic in understanding that we don't have much time with Peyton left.

We just can’t make a change now.

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If I remember right, Caldwell was one of the candidates for the head coaching job in Dallas after Parcells left. Clearly, the man has credentials if teams other than Indy want him as their head coach.

Teams were looking for coaches to interview and Caldwell's name kept coming up so the Colts locked him in a few years before Dungy left to be his replacement.

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My main argument is that he should have never been hired because he wasn't qualified. We missed the chance of making a change when Manning didn't pitch a fit after the season ended. Even then we would have been better off making a change and bringing in a defensive minded coach and retaining Moore and whoever else to keep the offense up and running. Similar to what we did when we brought in Dungy. Rob Ryan would have been a great hire. We can hope for improvement but he seems to be very stuck in his ways. We have the pieces. We will just have to beat the opponents, and our coaching staff to make a serious Super Bowl run.

I am not going to argue if he should have been hired or not. He has been. The Colts hired him because they didn't want a major change after Dungy left and frankly he was the best coach out there that the Colts could get that fit their system. Had a Lovie Smith been on the market I would have been all for him over Caldwell. He wasn't so the Colts promoted from within rather than having to change their system completely to fit a new coach. The fact they went to a Super Bowl (and yes I know they didn't win it) seems to suggest that wasn't all a bad idea. Like him or not in the Colts eyes he was the best guy out there for what they wanted at the time which is why they hired him. Manning didn't pitch a fit because that isn't what Manning does. Listen to him talk it's very clear he has respect for the poistion of the head coach. It would be very out of character for Manning to go into the Colts offices and demand a change. Also Manning was one of the guys who endorsed Caldwell for the job and keep in mind what Caldwell's job was before he became the Head Coach in waiting, he was Manning's poistion coach. He probably knew Caldwell better than anyone on the roster. It's very possiably as much as some fans don't want to hear this that Manning wanted him to be the coach. You can give credit to whoever you want for us winning under Caldwell but it's pretty hard to make a case that Colts fans are suffering under Caldwell.

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Teams were looking for coaches to interview and Caldwell's name kept coming up so the Colts locked him in a few years before Dungy left to be his replacement.

Not only that but we made him the head coach in waiting because the Falcons were very close to hiring him and Chris Polian to bring them to Atlanta to run our system down there. That's why both Caldwell and Chris Polian got promotions and raises and were pretty much named head coach and GM in waiting at the time.

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Not only that but we made him the head coach in waiting because the Falcons were very close to hiring him and Chris Polian to bring them to Atlanta to run our system down there. That's why both Caldwell and Chris Polian got promotions and raises and were pretty much named head coach and GM in waiting at the time.

Absolutely Correct!

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No offense but Caldwell top 5 AFC is laughable. He's barely top 5 AFC South since 2008, and there have only been 6 coaches. IC: Dungy, Caldwell, Hou: Kubiak, Jax: Del Rio, Ten: Fisher, Munchak. If Munchak pans out he could knock him out of the top 5 in the South.

Kubiak/Phillips: If the Texans defense improves I think each have to be given credit. Phillips for installing the 3-4, Kubiak for bringing him. Not a lot of coaches will bring in someone with that level of experience because if that improvement looks like it comes mostly from the new coach, that could make the front office make a change.

I'm not giving Caldwell's credit to Manning, I'm giving Manning's credit to Manning, and maybe that is key difference, because the people that keep propping Caldwell up as a good coach, it seems they feel he's the main reason for any Colts success. If someone believes that then I feel sorry for them. Kubiak does more for Schaub, than Caldwell does for Manning. That should be crystal clear to anyone. Kubiak has far more say in that offense than Caldwell does in the Colts, and that is years from being a back up qb, offensive coordinator. One of the reasons he's better suited for his job than Caldwell.

There are 32 coaches in the NFL and outside of the ones I haven't formed an opinion on there isn't one single name I would take Caldwell over. There are a couple that are similar, and then another group i would prefer to Caldwell that have been fired or quit over the past 3 years. So again

So again it seems that you've got Caldwell pedestal that we are going to be a contender with Collins or Painter starting all 16 games if the worst case scenario happens. He is 10-2 vs. the South, and he's 26-10, and all. Well, he's 10-2, and 26-10 more because of Peyton Manning than he is of his coaching ability. So i guess we have a difference of opinion of who is more valuable to the Colts Manning or Caldwell.

nflcoaches.jpg

Strong post, but when you have a Hall of Fame Quarterback in the final years of his career you don't bring in a coach that needs on-the-job training or training wheels, especially when there were far better options out there.

We are just going to keep going round and round over this. The fact you made you a chart for it is just wow okay. You are aloud to have your opinion as I am to have mine. It doesn't make my opinion laughable it just means we disagree. You have shown you like to blame Caldwell for anything that goes wrong while giving him very little credit for anything that goes right. Yes he has Peyton Manning but Peyton Manning does not equal winning, just ask Jim Mora about it. Yes Caldwell benefits from having Peyton Manning but any coach in the NFL is going to benefit from having a Hall of Fame QB. How did BB do as a head coach in the NFL before he found Tom Brady? How good would Mike McCarthy be without Aaron Rodgers? This is not an only Jim Caldwell thing.

I have never once said that Caldwell is more valueable to the Colts than Peyton Manning. I have said countless time that I think Caldwell is a decent coach who happens to have Peyton Manning. I don't think Jim Caldwell is any where near as good as Dungy. I do think there is a step between Hall of Fame Coach like Dungy and worthless bum standing on the sidelines that you make him out to sound like. The way you tell it the Colts might as well not have a coach and I don't think that's true. I think he does things we don't see. Winning 10 games last year with all the injuries we had was no small feet. Someone had to coach those new players up every week. Being the first coach to start 14-0 and the fact he also took the team to the Super Bowl in his rookie year was also impressive. Does Caldwell have faults? Yes, clearly he does. He's still done a good job here because at the end of the day as a coach in the NFL you are judged on your record and his is 26-10 and been to a Super Bowl. That's pretty good no matter why you think we have that record. He's the coach he get credit for it just like if we were 10-26 he would get the blame.

So because Kubiak hired a coach to fix his defense and it's going to be that coach that fixes the defense not Kubiak you give Kubiak credit for something another coach does. Yet you wont give Jim Caldwell credit being smart enough to look at Peyton Manning and say hey I am not messing with that because it's not broken. That's a double stranard. You'll give Kubiak credit for something someone else does (which we still have to see if it works) but you wont give Caldwell credit for something someone else does. How on earth do you know that Kubiak also does more for Schaub than Caldwell does for Manning? Schaub showed all the signs in the world of being good in Atlanta before Kubiak got a chance to coach him. It's why the Texans traded for him. Caldwell was Manning's QB coach for years. Including some of the best stats years of Manning's career and frankly came in 2002 which is about the time Manning made the jump to best QB in the NFL. None of us know how much Caldwell helped him during that time just like none of us know how much Kubiak helps Schaub. Again that's your opinion it's not a fact. What is a fact is that Caldwell did something to make Manning like him enough to endorse him for the head coaching job when Dungy was leaving. Just guessing on what we know about Manning I don't think Manning would have endrosed someone who was as worthless or as bad of a coach as you make Caldwell out to be.

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We are just going to keep going round and round over this. The fact you made you a chart for it is just wow okay. You are aloud to have your opinion as I am to have mine. It doesn't make my opinion laughable it just means we disagree. You have shown you like to blame Caldwell for anything that goes wrong while giving him very little credit for anything that goes right. Yes he has Peyton Manning but Peyton Manning does not equal winning, just ask Jim Mora about it. Yes Caldwell benefits from having Peyton Manning but any coach in the NFL is going to benefit from having a Hall of Fame QB. How did BB do as a head coach in the NFL before he found Tom Brady? How good would Mike McCarthy be without Aaron Rodgers? This is not an only Jim Caldwell thing.

I have never once said that Caldwell is more valueable to the Colts than Peyton Manning. I have said countless time that I think Caldwell is a decent coach who happens to have Peyton Manning. I don't think Jim Caldwell is any where near as good as Dungy. I do think there is a step between Hall of Fame Coach like Dungy and worthless bum standing on the sidelines that you make him out to sound like. The way you tell it the Colts might as well not have a coach and I don't think that's true. I think he does things we don't see. Winning 10 games last year with all the injuries we had was no small feet. Someone had to coach those new players up every week. Being the first coach to start 14-0 and the fact he also took the team to the Super Bowl in his rookie year was also impressive. Does Caldwell have faults? Yes, clearly he does. He's still done a good job here because at the end of the day as a coach in the NFL you are judged on your record and his is 26-10 and been to a Super Bowl. That's pretty good no matter why you think we have that record. He's the coach he get credit for it just like if we were 10-26 he would get the blame.

So because Kubiak hired a coach to fix his defense and it's going to be that coach that fixes the defense not Kubiak you give Kubiak credit for something another coach does. Yet you wont give Jim Caldwell credit being smart enough to look at Peyton Manning and say hey I am not messing with that because it's not broken. That's a double stranard. You'll give Kubiak credit for something someone else does (which we still have to see if it works) but you wont give Caldwell credit for something someone else does. How on earth do you know that Kubiak also does more for Schaub than Caldwell does for Manning? Schaub showed all the signs in the world of being good in Atlanta before Kubiak got a chance to coach him. It's why the Texans traded for him. Caldwell was Manning's QB coach for years. Including some of the best stats years of Manning's career and frankly came in 2002 which is about the time Manning made the jump to best QB in the NFL. None of us know how much Caldwell helped him during that time just like none of us know how much Kubiak helps Schaub. Again that's your opinion it's not a fact. What is a fact is that Caldwell did something to make Manning like him enough to endorse him for the head coaching job when Dungy was leaving. Just guessing on what we know about Manning I don't think Manning would have endrosed someone who was as worthless or as bad of a coach as you make Caldwell out to be.

Quoting his record in nearly every post whether it's AFC South, overall etc sure does make it seem like he's the reason for that record. I don't make him out to be a worthless bum, he's just not a very good coach. Rich Koteite would be a worthless bum, but with that said Koteite would likely have a winning record with Manning & this offense. Again, I guess that is where we differ. I feel most any of the coaches, in the NFL would win with Manning. I based my comment on Kubiak doing more for Schaub than Caldwell does for Manning on the fact that he was an Offensive coordinator and still plays a large role in their offense. Jim Zorn was horrible, Lane Kiffin was horrible, but he was handcuffed by a horrible owner, but it wouldn't surprise me if either one of them could win with Manning. I'm not saying they would be upgrades over Caldwell, but there are plenty of men out there that would be. It's just sad to watch the final years of Manning's career go down the drain while a coach "learns" on the job. I made the chart just to show that I thought it out and wasn't just throwing stuff against the wall in hopes that it sticks.

Bill Belichick has a system in place where he would win with Hoyer, or even Mallett if Brady were to go down. Cassell proved this when he took the team to 11-5 and lost out on a tiebreaker and Cassell's first 15 starts were fairly similar, and I believe a little better than Brady's were. McCarthy isn't the second coming of Lomabardi and makes some of the same foolish calls Caldwell has made and he's had a luxury of having two front line quarterbacks as well along with running a QB friendly system in the WCO. Flynn would be productive if Rodgers were to miss time. We would be lucky to win a game or two if Painter starts 16 games, and with Collins that might be pushed to 4 wins. So if Caldwell were half the coach that some make him out to seem, the team would miss Manning but would remain somewhat competitive. I sure hope he doesn't miss many games to prove that to be right.

Mora never really had Manning in his prime, and there is no doubt in my mind that he would have won if he had remained in place as head coach.

Kubiak will get credit for making the change in DC's, just as Caldwell gets credit for the change in DC's that he made. Now whether or not that is an upgrade is a whole different argument because I haven't seen an elite defense on the field for the Colts. But Caldwell gets credit for trying to make a change, and for trying to get some bigger players.

Manning's reaction to being pulled vs. the Jets, and more importantly the timeout vs. the Jets last year certainly isn't a ringing endorsement and he's not one to rock the boat even if deep down he felt differently. Odds are the truth will likely never be known about what he really thought about those decisions unless he writes an inhibited autobiography once he retires, and even then I bet he will keep a lot of thoughts and ideas too himself.

Unfortunately the franchise has made a decision and we will have to live with it and overcome it.

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Manning's reaction to being pulled vs. the Jets, and more importantly the timeout vs. the Jets last year certainly isn't a ringing endorsement and he's not one to rock the boat

True.

I for one get really tired of hearing the "Manning's expression when being pulled from the game".

He was not happy, we were not happy, the decision was made and although I see Jim having some say in this I do not place the blame entirely on him.

This was a policy when Tony Dungy was coach. I also believe Polian supported it.

I know it is hard for a lot of people to believe but Peyton plays for the Colts. He is a qb. Not a coach or manager, nor is he the team owner. No . . . he does not rock the boat. I sometimes don't agree with my employers policies either, and I have a right to show my disaproval, but I still work for them and ultimately they have the final decision in how they want to run their business.

Yes I agree also that the time-out against the Jets wasn't a good decision being able to decide after the call being played. Hindsight which Caldwell did not have at the time, but I respect his reasoning for why he did it, and even though it didn't work, I will give him a "rookie" pass for one of his few decisions that didn't work out.

I'm not saying Jim is the best coach out there, but I think he gets a lot of bashing for things that are not totally in his hands.

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True.

I for one get really tired of hearing the "Manning's expression when being pulled from the game".

He was not happy, we were not happy, the decision was made and although I see Jim having some say in this I do not place the blame entirely on him.

This was a policy when Tony Dungy was coach. I also believe Polian supported it.

I know it is hard for a lot of people to believe but Peyton plays for the Colts. He is a qb. Not a coach or manager, nor is he the team owner. No . . . he does not rock the boat. I sometimes don't agree with my employers policies either, and I have a right to show my disaproval, but I still work for them and ultimately they have the final decision in how they want to run their business.

Yes I agree also that the time-out against the Jets wasn't a good decision being able to decide after the call being played. Hindsight which Caldwell did not have at the time, but I respect his reasoning for why he did it, and even though it didn't work, I will give him a "rookie" pass for one of his few decisions that didn't work out.

I'm not saying Jim is the best coach out there, but I think he gets a lot of bashing for things that are not totally in his hands.

Exactly, which is what I was getting at when I said Manning respects the poistion of head coach. He understands that the head coach is the head coach and while he might disagree he's not the head coach. I really believe what Manning said when he did the interview with CBS before the Super Bowl when he said they had a team meeting and put it behind them. I also agree Manning didn't like the timeout last year. Again though, I think Manning understands just because he doesn't like something doesn't make it his call if someone should be fired or not. It just doesn't fit everything we know about Manning.

Caldwell has made his fair share of mistakes, no question about that. He has also done some good things, 14-0 start, taking us to a Super Bowl, getting the team in the playoffs last year, firing Prunell and Meeks. I'll give him credit for getting a better effort out of the guys last week.

Is he a great coach? No. Was he the best coach that fit the mold of what the Colts wanted in a coach at the time Dungy retired? Yes. Is he some worthless bum who just calls timeouts and holds up one finger when we score? No. Did he probably get thrown in the job a year or two before he was truly ready? Yeah I can agree with that but it was forced by the Dungy retirment. I think he is very good at developing a game plan for teams. He is good at keeping a team focused. I think he's good at coaching guys up as well. What I think he struggles with is talking to the media, clock managment and half-time adjustments. Hopefully the last two he'll improve on the longer he's a head coach in the NFL. I could really care if he's good with the media or not.

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Quoting his record in nearly every post whether it's AFC South, overall etc sure does make it seem like he's the reason for that record. I don't make him out to be a worthless bum, he's just not a very good coach. Rich Koteite would be a worthless bum, but with that said Koteite would likely have a winning record with Manning & this offense. Again, I guess that is where we differ. I feel most any of the coaches, in the NFL would win with Manning. I based my comment on Kubiak doing more for Schaub than Caldwell does for Manning on the fact that he was an Offensive coordinator and still plays a large role in their offense. Jim Zorn was horrible, Lane Kiffin was horrible, but he was handcuffed by a horrible owner, but it wouldn't surprise me if either one of them could win with Manning. I'm not saying they would be upgrades over Caldwell, but there are plenty of men out there that would be. It's just sad to watch the final years of Manning's career go down the drain while a coach "learns" on the job. I made the chart just to show that I thought it out and wasn't just throwing stuff against the wall in hopes that it sticks.

When you call a coach a worthless bum (Koteite) and then say well Koteite could have a winning record with these guys and just about any failed coach in the recent history of the NFL could win with these guy to belittle Caldwell that is making Caldwell out to be a worthless bum. Again Manning and high powered offense does not equal a winning record by themselves, ask Jim Mora about it. If that was the case Mora would have never been fired.

Caldwell was Manning's QB coach. I think the QB coach probably has a much if not more to do with the development of a QB than a coordinator does. It's not like Caldwell coaches the DBs and then became the head coach and never enteracted with Manning before becoming the coach.

Bill Belichick has a system in place where he would win with Hoyer, or even Mallett if Brady were to go down. Cassell proved this when he took the team to 11-5 and lost out on a tiebreaker and Cassell's first 15 starts were fairly similar, and I believe a little better than Brady's were. McCarthy isn't the second coming of Lomabardi and makes some of the same foolish calls Caldwell has made and he's had a luxury of having two front line quarterbacks as well along with running a QB friendly system in the WCO. Flynn would be productive if Rodgers were to miss time. We would be lucky to win a game or two if Painter starts 16 games, and with Collins that might be pushed to 4 wins. So if Caldwell were half the coach that some make him out to seem, the team would miss Manning but would remain somewhat competitive. I sure hope he doesn't miss many games to prove that to be right.

How did that system work in Cleveland and before he found Brady? Also if you ask some Pats fans the 11-5 season was a major drop coming off the 18-1 season.

Mora never really had Manning in his prime, and there is no doubt in my mind that he would have won if he had remained in place as head coach.

He got fired because the team was regressing as Manning came into his prime. His records went 3-13, 13-3, 10-6, 6-10. The team was getting worse which is why he got let go so no I don't buy they would have won had he remained the coach.

Kubiak will get credit for making the change in DC's, just as Caldwell gets credit for the change in DC's that he made. Now whether or not that is an upgrade is a whole different argument because I haven't seen an elite defense on the field for the Colts. But Caldwell gets credit for trying to make a change, and for trying to get some bigger players.

Manning's reaction to being pulled vs. the Jets, and more importantly the timeout vs. the Jets last year certainly isn't a ringing endorsement and he's not one to rock the boat even if deep down he felt differently. Odds are the truth will likely never be known about what he really thought about those decisions unless he writes an inhibited autobiography once he retires, and even then I bet he will keep a lot of thoughts and ideas too himself.

Yes Peyton disagreed with those calls. He also disagreed with Dungy when Dungy wanted to punt in a playoff game and Peyton kept the offense on the field, does that mean Dungy was not a good coach just because Manning disagreed with him on a call?

Unfortunately the franchise has made a decision and we will have to live with it and overcome it.

We seem to be just fine over coming it. Two division titles and a trip to the Super Bowl isn't exactly struggling.

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When you call a coach a worthless bum (Koteite) and then say well Koteite could have a winning record with these guys and just about any failed coach in the recent history of the NFL could win with these guy to belittle Caldwell that is making Caldwell out to be a worthless bum. Again Manning and high powered offense does not equal a winning record by themselves, ask Jim Mora about it. If that was the case Mora would have never been fired.

Caldwell was Manning's QB coach. I think the QB coach probably has a much if not more to do with the development of a QB than a coordinator does. It's not like Caldwell coaches the DBs and then became the head coach and never enteracted with Manning before becoming the coach.

How did that system work in Cleveland and before he found Brady? Also if you ask some Pats fans the 11-5 season was a major drop coming off the 18-1 season.

He got fired because the team was regressing as Manning came into his prime. His records went 3-13, 13-3, 10-6, 6-10. The team was getting worse which is why he got let go so no I don't buy they would have won had he remained the coach.

Yes Peyton disagreed with those calls. He also disagreed with Dungy when Dungy wanted to punt in a playoff game and Peyton kept the offense on the field, does that mean Dungy was not a good coach just because Manning disagreed with him on a call?

We seem to be just fine over coming it. Two division titles and a trip to the Super Bowl isn't exactly struggling.

If that is the equation you come up with then,I won't argue with it.

Mora was 3-13, 13-3,10-6, and very easily could have had a 3rd 10 win year if it wasn't for the injury to James and a couple of others. My recollection was Polian wanted Mora to fire his DC, Mora didn't. Mora was sent packing. The playoffs rant and calling out the QB didn't help matters. I would take Jim Mora back with open arms at this point.

Caldwell was Manning's QB coach. Did he help in development, I'm sure aided it. One could argue that Manning was well on his way to developing as it was.

Obviously Belichick wasn't as successful in Cleveland as he has been in New England. From recollection he had an issue with the Browns owner. He took them to the playoffs so it's not as if they were 2-14 each year. Nobody knows what would happened in New England if Mo Lewis hadn't jacked Bledsoe up on the sideline. Bledsoe might have led them to a similar season, he took them to a Super Bowl earlier in his career, or he could have played bad enough to be replaced. Nobody knows either way. I'm still a firm believer that it was their defense that did more for the Patriots than young Tom during those early titles they shared. Look at what Eli Manning said a couple of weeks ago. Brady is exponentially better as a quarterback now than he was when he was winning titles, but it has taken some time for them to reinvent or replace the aging defense who I believe would have been pretty good, whether Brady, Bledsoe, or Huard was running the show.

You can say the Colts&Mora were regressing, and I guess you could say that the Colts & Caldwell are regressing since they've gone 14-2 to 10-6. When Mora had a 4 game drop off a change was made. Hmmmm I still pin that on the injury to James, and Mora's refusal to make a change @ the DC position. Outside of the James injury in 2002 the Colts as whole have been fairly steady with 10+ wins each year no matter who is coaching.

Dungy is lauded by some Colts fans. Personally I think he underachieved, and he shares some of the issues Caldwell has had. Dungy didn't pull the starters when faced with a perfect season. We played San Diego straight up and lost. We didn't play the Jets straight up. Dungy will be a hall of famer but I think he underachieved with the talent that he had at his disposal. I can respect him as a coach more than I can Caldwell for playing the season out. I can respect them both as men, and if I had my choice between Dungy & Caldwell, I'd take Dungy which I think most people would.

Manning disagreed with that particular call, and I believe he would have disagreed with him if he would have pulled the starters leading 17-16 entering the 4th quarter vs. the Chargers with a 13-0 record & home field advantage locked up. Playing it out against the Jets doesn't guarantee a Super Bowl victory but it teaches a certain attitude. Just like McCarthy on Friday night. Why not try to win. It's not like he put Rodgers back in to do it, but he practiced things that you never know when they could pop up. Just like a preseason game I saw with the Patriots. Brady was running a drive 1st or 2nd Quarter and Belichick sent the back up just to replicate the possible need of the guy coming off the bench cold to replace an injured Brady. I've read where Manning is superstitious about stuff like that, and the Patriots did have a need for it a year or so later, but that is just one of those little things that we seem to miss at times. Sorta like being prepared for an onside kick, or having poor technique on our kickoff returns where a coach can pick up on it and try it in the biggest game of his career. Little things.

You can say we've overcome just fine, but in the two biggest games we have had under this regime it's been a swing and a miss.

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If that is the equation you come up with then,I won't argue with it.

Mora was 3-13, 13-3,10-6, and very easily could have had a 3rd 10 win year if it wasn't for the injury to James and a couple of others. My recollection was Polian wanted Mora to fire his DC, Mora didn't. Mora was sent packing. The playoffs rant and calling out the QB didn't help matters. I would take Jim Mora back with open arms at this point.

Yet Caldwell had even more injuries and lead the team to the playoffs. Also Mora had a 1,000 yard rusher after Edge went down in Rhodes. What he didn't have was anything close to a defense which is what lead to him getting fired. So you would take the coach who couldn't over come the injuries over the coach who did? Interesting.

Caldwell was Manning's QB coach. Did he help in development, I'm sure aided it. One could argue that Manning was well on his way to developing as it was.

Obviously Belichick wasn't as successful in Cleveland as he has been in New England. From recollection he had an issue with the Browns owner. He took them to the playoffs so it's not as if they were 2-14 each year. Nobody knows what would happened in New England if Mo Lewis hadn't jacked Bledsoe up on the sideline. Bledsoe might have led them to a similar season, he took them to a Super Bowl earlier in his career, or he could have played bad enough to be replaced. Nobody knows either way. I'm still a firm believer that it was their defense that did more for the Patriots than young Tom during those early titles they shared. Look at what Eli Manning said a couple of weeks ago. Brady is exponentially better as a quarterback now than he was when he was winning titles, but it has taken some time for them to reinvent or replace the aging defense who I believe would have been pretty good, whether Brady, Bledsoe, or Huard was running the show.

I didn't say he was, I just pointed out that any head coach is going to struggle some if you take away their star QB. You make it sound like Caldwell is the only coach in the NFL whose team would struggle if he lost his star QB. The Pats were 5-13 with Bledsoe as their QB under BB. Brady came in and they won a Super Bowl. The only thing that changed was Brady. I don't think it's a reach to say the Pats were not exactly enjoying the same success under Bledsoe as they had as soon as they found a super star QB. Again do you think Mike McCarthy would do as well as a coach if you took Rodgers away from him? That's my point, any team that is built around a franchise QB is probably going to struggle some if you take tht player away for an extended period of time, not just the Colts with Caldwell.

You can say the Colts&Mora were regressing, and I guess you could say that the Colts & Caldwell are regressing since they've gone 14-2 to 10-6. When Mora had a 4 game drop off a change was made. Hmmmm I still pin that on the injury to James, and Mora's refusal to make a change @ the DC position. Outside of the James injury in 2002 the Colts as whole have been fairly steady with 10+ wins each year no matter who is coaching.

Time will tell to see if they are regressing this year. Mora's regrssion had gone over three years. Also the injuries Mora had the last year he was here were nothing compared to what we had last year with Caldwell and he took that team to the playoffs. If we go 6-10 this year under Caldwell and are fairly healthy I would say that we had regressed under Caldwell. If we go 11-5 12-4 like I expect us to do this year I wont say that.

Also the Edge injury hurt but not as bad, Rhodes came in and ran for 1,000 yards after Edge went down. It was the defense why we lost and we were fairly healthy that year on defense. That's why we went out and got Dungy a defensive coach.

Dungy is lauded by some Colts fans. Personally I think he underachieved, and he shares some of the issues Caldwell has had. Dungy didn't pull the starters when faced with a perfect season. We played San Diego straight up and lost. We didn't play the Jets straight up. Dungy will be a hall of famer but I think he underachieved with the talent that he had at his disposal. I can respect him as a coach more than I can Caldwell for playing the season out. I can respect them both as men, and if I had my choice between Dungy & Caldwell, I'd take Dungy which I think most people would.

I am not going to disagree with you on taking Dungy over Caldwell, I figured that was pretty clear when I keep saying Dungy was a Hall of Fame coach while Caldwell in a middle of the pack coach.

Manning disagreed with that particular call, and I believe he would have disagreed with him if he would have pulled the starters leading 17-16 entering the 4th quarter vs. the Chargers with a 13-0 record & home field advantage locked up. Playing it out against the Jets doesn't guarantee a Super Bowl victory but it teaches a certain attitude. Just like McCarthy on Friday night. Why not try to win. It's not like he put Rodgers back in to do it, but he practiced things that you never know when they could pop up. Just like a preseason game I saw with the Patriots. Brady was running a drive 1st or 2nd Quarter and Belichick sent the back up just to replicate the possible need of the guy coming off the bench cold to replace an injured Brady. I've read where Manning is superstitious about stuff like that, and the Patriots did have a need for it a year or so later, but that is just one of those little things that we seem to miss at times. Sorta like being prepared for an onside kick, or having poor technique on our kickoff returns where a coach can pick up on it and try it in the biggest game of his career. Little things.

Just as he was when told the punt team to get back on the sideline when Dungy was the coach. Players don't always have to agree with the coach. I think just about every player in the NFL has disagred with their coach at some point. Also I don't think Caldwell wanted to lose to the Jets. It's not like he called "Painter fumble on three." That was their plans to pull the starters. It is what it is I think it had about as much to do with the Super Bowl as Tony Dungy saying we would did.

You can say we've overcome just fine, but in the two biggest games we have had under this regime it's been a swing and a miss.

I would argue the AFC Title game vs. the Jets was a bigger game than the playoff game with the Jets last year and that was a huge homerun. I'd also point out looking at the last four weeks last year and saying we have to run the table to get into the playoffs and doing was pretty impressive. Like any coach Caldwell has good moments and bad moments in his career.

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Yet Caldwell had even more injuries and lead the team to the playoffs. Also Mora had a 1,000 yard rusher after Edge went down in Rhodes. What he didn't have was anything close to a defense which is what lead to him getting fired. So you would take the coach who couldn't over come the injuries over the coach who did? Interesting.

Yes I would. His game day decision making was better. It would be interesting to see him with Manning in his prime or even now. You have to look at the offensive schemes being fairly similar with the edge going to the Caldwell Colts because Manning is a better quarterback now than he was in years 1-3. The playbook has more depth to it. This another instance of you making it seem like Caldwell is the only reason we were able to recover from the injuries we had. He gets some of the credit but I would have to give the majority of the credit to the veteran leaders that kept the team together too. The guys like Clark helping Tamme, Manning & Tammee/White working overtime to get them. Tammee wasn't Dallas, but he was almost Fort Worth. White didn't approach the ability of Collie, but he played much better than many expected and that is a tribute to all involved. While Rhodes did an amicable job replacing James, it wasn't the same. The PAP wasn't as deadly, he wasn't near the receiver James was out of the backfield and we would have had a much better shot of winning some of those games with James as opposed to Dom.

I didn't say he was, I just pointed out that any head coach is going to struggle some if you take away their star QB. You make it sound like Caldwell is the only coach in the NFL whose team would struggle if he lost his star QB. The Pats were 5-13 with Bledsoe as their QB under BB. Brady came in and they won a Super Bowl. The only thing that changed was Brady. I don't think it's a reach to say the Pats were not exactly enjoying the same success under Bledsoe as they had as soon as they found a super star QB. Again do you think Mike McCarthy would do as well as a coach if you took Rodgers away from him? That's my point, any team that is built around a franchise QB is probably going to struggle some if you take tht player away for an extended period of time, not just the Colts with Caldwell.

Most coaches would struggle when they lose a star QB. It's not as simple as saying the only thing that changed was Brady. The defense had a full year in the BB system and sorta like what they have gone through the past couple of years it takes time for it to be second nature. So I still believe that they would have improved as they did throughout that year if Bledsoe had not been injured and replaced. McCarthy would miss Rodgers, but they would be in a far better position due to the WCO and Flynn running the show as opposed to Collins or Painter trying to replace Manning. So nowhere have i tried to say that Caldwell would be the only one that would have struggles if they lost their qb for an extended period of time, but I think the Colts would be affected by that more than any other team because of how much of the Colts offense and over all game plan(play with a lead and turn 9398 loose) would be disrupted by the loss of Manning for an extended period of time. That would be the same whether it was Mora, Dungy, Caldwell, Gruden, Ryan,Insert name here. That isn't a knock on Caldwell it's a tribute to Manning.

Time will tell to see if they are regressing this year. Mora's regrssion had gone over three years. Also the injuries Mora had the last year he was here were nothing compared to what we had last year with Caldwell and he took that team to the playoffs. If we go 6-10 this year under Caldwell and are fairly healthy I would say that we had regressed under Caldwell. If we go 11-5 12-4 like I expect us to do this year I wont say that.

Also the Edge injury hurt but not as bad, Rhodes came in and ran for 1,000 yards after Edge went down. It was the defense why we lost and we were fairly healthy that year on defense. That's why we went out and got Dungy a defensive coach.

I could see 9-7 if Manning starts the season slow. I could see struggling to win if he doesn't play at all. It will be hard to form an accurate opinion on the topic of regression if Manning misses significant time or starts slow like he did the previous year he missed most if not all of training camp.

As I pointed out, Mora was asked to fire his DC. He didn't so he was sent packing too. If he would have hired a new DC, and remained in place, there is no doubt in my mind we would have continued to have 10+ win seasons as Manning developed.

I am not going to disagree with you on taking Dungy over Caldwell, I figured that was pretty clear when I keep saying Dungy was a Hall of Fame coach while Caldwell in a middle of the pack coach.

Just as he was when told the punt team to get back on the sideline when Dungy was the coach. Players don't always have to agree with the coach. I think just about every player in the NFL has disagred with their coach at some point. Also I don't think Caldwell wanted to lose to the Jets. It's not like he called "Painter fumble on three." That was their plans to pull the starters. It is what it is I think it had about as much to do with the Super Bowl as Tony Dungy saying we would did.

It's a calculated risk, and when the Patriots had the choice to make, they kept the foot on the pedal and moved forward. In the end they lost the Super Bowl, so it didn't matter as much. I think it just instills an attitude. If kept the starters in and someone goes down he would've been grilled, just as Dungy would have in that Charger game or Belichick in the "meaningless" Giants game. That comes with the territory. Dungy can claim this or that, but when he was faced with a similar situation vs. the Chargers, he played it out and got beat. I'd much rather have lost the perfect season to the Jets on a Manning pick six, or Addai fumble that is returned to the touchdown, or Sanchez toasting the secondary for 3 4th quarter touchdown passes as opposed to turning the controls over to Painter and giving the game away.

I would argue the AFC Title game vs. the Jets was a bigger game than the playoff game with the Jets last year and that was a huge homerun. I'd also point out looking at the last four weeks last year and saying we have to run the table to get into the playoffs and doing was pretty impressive. Like any coach Caldwell has good moments and bad moments in his career.

The AFCCG is bigger than the Jets game last year but it wasn't as big as the Super Bowl. Once you are in the playoffs the last game is the biggest, while that is obvious, maybe we should blame the players for not building a large enough lead so an errant Caldwell timeout isn't as important. Your comment about the winning streak is another example of it seeming like you are giving all of the credit to Caldwell as opposed to the veteran leadership that equally held the team together and performed on the field.

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Guest BlueShoe

It's not giving up it's agreeing to disagree. Nothing wrong with that, no one ever said we all had to have the same opinions.

Just a joke man. You can turn off the debate switch now. ;)

A lot of great points made in this thread.

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His role was minimal but he was aware of it. He talked about it but he didn't play a huge part in any of that stuff. He doesn't play a huge part in anything around here. He likes to keep his participation in most things as minimal as he possibly can, but he did talk about it.

These ^ are the words of a caretaker.

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Dungy is lauded by some Colts fans. Personally I think he underachieved, and he shares some of the issues Caldwell has had. Dungy didn't pull the starters when faced with a perfect season. We played San Diego straight up and lost. We didn't play the Jets straight up. Dungy will be a hall of famer but I think he underachieved with the talent that he had at his disposal. I can respect him as a coach more than I can Caldwell for playing the season out. I can respect them both as men, and if I had my choice between Dungy & Caldwell, I'd take Dungy which I think most people would.

I agree with you in that I think Dungy underachieved while he was here. I also disagree with the last statement in that I would take Caldwell over Dungy any and every day of the week. Why? Because Caldwell, imo, has to be the reason we are finally getting players who are bigger and stronger. When Dungy was in Minnesota they had a very small but fast defense. That defense constantly got run over by teams like Dallas, Green Bay and New York Giants. In Indy he always had the small but fast defense that has gotten run over by teams like New England, San Diego, Pittsburgh, Houston and Jacksonville. The only time a "Dungy defense" was great was in Tampa Bay but he had guys with size while he was there and I don't buy that he was responsible in bringing those guys because he would have targetted smaller players. In Tampa he had guys like:

DE Marcus Jones 6'6" 286 lbs

DT Booger Mcfarland 6'0" 300 lbs

DT Warren Sapp 6'2" 303 lbs

DE Simeon Rice 6'5" 268 lbs

OLB Shelton Quarles 6'1" 225 lbs

MLB Jamie Duncan 6'1" 238 lbs

OLB Derrick Brooks 6'0" 235 lbs

Plus in the secondary he had guys like Ronde Barber and John Lynch. Also as a side note, Tampa also had a pretty good running game with Dunn, Alstott and Pittman.

While the LB's weren't the biggest in the league, they also weren't the smallest like the LB's we pretty much always had here under Dungy. The one exception being Rob Morris, who was already here before Dungy came in. The other LB's we've had were pretty much all 225 lbs or less. While Dungy was in Indy, how many times did we have a 300lb guy making regular starts at DT? I don't remember a single one except for when we made the trade for Booger...and is it coincidence that that was the year we finally made it over the hump and won the SB? Perhaps it could be but definitely not in my opinion.

Also is it coincidence that we finally start regularly picking up guys that are bigger and more suited for the positions that they play when Dungy leaves and Caldwell takes over? Again, no...at least not in my opinion. For this reason alone I would always take Caldwell over Dungy. That doesn't mean that Caldwell is the best man for the job but he also isn't the worst. My personal hopes for when Dungy retired was that we would give a good, long look to Ron Rivera. He ran a very similar defensive scheme in Chicago but was not hung up on the small but fast concept that Dungy refused to let go of.

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