powers vs davis

[ztboiler]

Davis hasn't made any mistakes yet in a Colt's uniform, so he is my favorite.

[Carlos Danger]

I have to think that Davis is the #1... Powers is a good CB who has been all over the field this preseason and maybe he should get the initial nod out of respect, but Davis definitely has the athleticism edge... I really like this pick up especially considering how cheap his contract is for the next couple seasons... On to the waiver wire for an O-line upgrade and a stop-gap NT!!!

[stat2883]

I watched the first episode of hardknocks...now i am about to watch the crap out of that. see what kind of info they spill on davis. I think it was more the coaching staff.

FYI, Davis was showing signs of trouble before Philbin and co. took over.

[GoColts8818]

I keep hearing the term out of shape being thrown around in reference to Davis. My cousin however watches Hard Knocks and said he looks pretty good. If indeed Davis is out of shape can we motivate him hopefully to get himself in shape as quick as possible??!!

Here is the thing out of shape for an nfl player would be in shape for 99.9% of us. With you I hope he gets on shape quickly that's the only thing that worries me about this deal is that his work ethic is questionable I know I saw at least one person say its possible he's gotten this far on pure talent if that's the case pagano will have his work cut out for him.

[mvbighead]

My feelings as well. He's very good in the nickel. Someone said next year we can target Cary Williams in free agency and move Powers to nickel and that would be a very fine secondary.

We don't need 3 CBs that we'll have to pay. Would be much wiser to draft a young guy in the 3rd next year, and sign him to a rookie deal for 4 years. We'll need to re-up Vontae and Jeraud fairly soon, if the team chooses to, so there will be a lot of money allocated that way.

[Boiler_Colt]

We don't need 3 CBs that we'll have to pay. Would be much wiser to draft a young guy in the 3rd next year, and sign him to a rookie deal for 4 years. We'll need to re-up Vontae and Jeraud fairly soon, if the team chooses to, so there will be a lot of money allocated that way.

Jerraud isn't worth top dollar and really doesnt excel in man to man. In the modern day NFL with teams like the Pats, Packers, Lions, Saints, etc. You need 3 quality corners.

[mvbighead]

Jerraud isn't worth top dollar and really doesnt excel in man to man. In the modern day NFL with teams like the Pats, Packers, Lions, Saints, etc. You need 3 quality corners.

I have heard several refer to Pagano's scheme as zone-blitz. I am sure there will be plenty of man, and with that, I don't see Jerraud having any problem. He was by far our best corner before the trade. He should be plenty good opposite Vontae. But this isn't some single concept defense where our corners are always in man.

Having three good corners is no doubt ideal, but I'd challenge you to find one team that has 5-10 million invested in each player annually for their top three guys. One of the teams that has invested most heavily in their corner position is the New York Jets.

Revis - 11/annually

Cromartie - 8/annually

Wilson - 2.6/annually

Just over 20 annually.

The way I see it, is IF they get Davis' head on straight, he'd be our ~10 million dollar guy. Hopefully they can push that number down. Powers would be our #2, most likely, but at a more manageable number than Cromartie, IMO. 6 perhaps? And then, in a year or two, you bring in a guy to play in 3 wide sets. You maybe move Jerraud into nickel and have someone else outside, or you perhaps bring in an ideal nickel. As it is, Jerraud has played outside for us pretty much the entire time. He is not just a nickel corner. His top end speed isn't the greatest, but neither is Charles Woodson's. That's not a comparison mind you, but just a simple fact that good corners aren't judged solely on speed. Jerraud is a very good number 2, IMO. He shouldn't have to be our number 1, but that is what he has had to be. Suffice it to say, I feel very good about the duo of Powers and Davis. Hopefully Rucker or someone can fill in at the nickel spot and we'll have a good coverage unit.

But I just don't see us breaking the bank at the corner position when we could really use a run stopper up front. Pagano has 2 solid guys at corner now, and several guys with potential. We don't need to bring in another corner. We need help elsewhere. Offensive line, RB perhaps, DE, NT, LB, etc. etc.

[Boiler_Colt]

I have heard several refer to Pagano's scheme as zone-blitz. I am sure there will be plenty of man, and with that, I don't see Jerraud having any problem. He was by far our best corner before the trade. He should be plenty good opposite Vontae. But this isn't some single concept defense where our corners are always in man.

Having three good corners is no doubt ideal, but I'd challenge you to find one team that has 5-10 million invested in each player annually for their top three guys. One of the teams that has invested most heavily in their corner position is the New York Jets.

Revis - 11/annually

Cromartie - 8/annually

Wilson - 2.6/annually

Eagles had Namndi, Samuel, and DRC for a season. Cowboys want Jenkins to be their 3rd behind Carr and Claiborne. Putting the cart before the horse to say Davis will get to pro bowl level or that Powers will even play a full season, let alone demand 6 mil a year. Girgson has shown no patience for injury prone players. Anyhow, I was just relaying what another poster said about acquiring Williams next year and moving Jerraud to nickel full time. (He plays nickel when teams go 3 wide anyways). We're going to have plenty of money and our secondary can never have too many quality players.

[mvbighead]

Eagles had Namndi, Samuel, and DRC for a season. Cowboys want Jenkins to be their 3rd behind Carr and Claiborne. Putting the cart before the horse to say Davis will get to pro bowl level or that Powers will even play a full season, let alone demand 6 mil a year. Girgson has shown no patience for injury prone players. Anyhow, I was just relaying what another poster said about acquiring Williams next year and moving Jerraud to nickel full time. (He plays nickel when teams go 3 wide anyways). We're going to have plenty of money and our secondary can never have too many quality players.

Jerraud's contract is done after this year. They can RFA him once, and then comes the franchise tag aside from locking him up long term. Getting Jerraud to play full time nickel means a lot less money, and a lot less likely that he sticks around. Personally, as far as I see it, the move to acquire Davis is not a short lived one. They're going to get him on board, and they're going to re-up his deal and get him to stick around (eventually).

Health is Jerraud's biggest problem. But, he's been the starter for a minimum of 10 games every season since he's been drafted. Could be better, but it isn't bad.

Cart before the horse? Really? You think they gave up a 2 for a nobody? The only reason they give up that pick is because they feel he's got something major to contribute.

As far as Grigson and injured players, I'd like you to introduce you to Austin Collie. How about Corey Redding? Or perhaps Josh Chapman. Grigson got rid of injury prone players with massive contracts. At this point in, Powers is not that. In the event that they end up re-upping Powers, my guess is that he'll be given a fair deal, but not a blockbuster. He's no Revis, but he is certainly better than a fair number of corners out there, IMO.

As far as the money, sure, they'll have it. But most teams don't go out and dump money over and over again in the same position. It's the concept of having one great player to take the attention off of your others. Some teams double dip, IE - Harrison/Wayne, Revis/Cromartie, Gronk/Hernandez, etc. But you seldom see a team spend significant money on 3 players in the same position. Heck, you mention the Eagles, and the only reason that lasted for the season was because it didn't cause the Eagles much to do it. But the problem is, is no competent starter wants to be stuck in a nickel role. You don't get paid in the nickel role. That may change over the years, but you'd be hard pressed to find a legitimate CB veteran who wants to come to your team to play in the nickel. It may work next year if the Colts acquire a veteran corner, and RFA Powers, but he'll be gone the year after.

IMO, the best way to deal with this, is to sign two veterans on the outside. In our case, it would appear to be Davis and Powers. Then, you draft a youngster who will sign a 4 year deal to play the nickel. He has no choice for 5 years (4 + 1 year RFA), and he gets to develop from the nickel position. It just isn't wise, IMO, to spend 5 annually on a part time player. We'd be far better off locking up Angerer or Conner, or bringing in a new LB.

[Boiler_Colt]

Cart before the horse? Really? You think they gave up a 2 for a nobody? The only reason they give up that pick is because they feel he's got something major to contribute.

Really, you can see the future and tell me how good he will play and stay healthy? He has to prove it first. I appreciate the massive walls of text in response, but you and I have no idea how these players will perform before you start locking them up to long term contracts.

[mvbighead]

Really, you can see the future and tell me how good he will play and stay healthy? He has to prove it first. I appreciate the massive walls of text in response, but you and I have no idea how these players will perform before you start locking them up to long term contracts.

The kid has been in the league for how many years now? This prove it stuff gets pretty old. It applies to rookies first and foremost, always seems to be that such and such doesn't matter until the regular season. This guy has been in the league for 3 years. What he needs to prove escapes me, because, as far as I can tell, he's proven that he is a pretty darned good corner. Enough so that our GM, owner, and coach agreed that to give up a 2nd round pick (nothing to scoff at) to bring him in here. He doesn't have to prove that, he already has. The only thing he has to do is buy in and play football. Stay healthy, and a contract is sure to come his way. As far as me being the one who brought up contracts... let me tell you, I wasn't. It was the owner of the team who stated, "my checkbook is ready."

The fact of the matter is, the kid has talent. I am not at all saying that he WILL be locked up. I am simply projecting the likely scenario. Vontae should be our most skilled corner. Provided that he stays healthy and takes to Pagano's coaching, he is quite likely our #1 corner.

As for the wall of text, if you care to read it, I explain my points. I don't just say that something is so and leave it at that. I support my points with arguments that I believe to be based on good reasoning. I don't think it is out of the realm of possibility for the team to look at extending Vontae before anyone here really expects it. If he buys in, and the team takes to it, he'll be re-upped. They didn't give up a 2nd for a 1-2 year rental. If things go as they hope, they'll be re-signing him sooner than later. That's why they traded for him, to have him here for several more years.

[Boiler_Colt]

The kid has been in the league for how many years now? This prove it stuff gets pretty old. It applies to rookies first and foremost, always seems to be that such and such doesn't matter until the regular season. This guy has been in the league for 3 years. What he needs to prove escapes me, because, as far as I can tell, he's proven that he is a pretty darned good corner. Enough so that our GM, owner, and coach agreed that to give up a 2nd round pick (nothing to scoff at) to bring him in here. He doesn't have to prove that, he already has. The only thing he has to do is buy in and play football. Stay healthy, and a contract is sure to come his way. As far as me being the one who brought up contracts... let me tell you, I wasn't. It was the owner of the team who stated, "my checkbook is ready."

The fact of the matter is, the kid has talent. I am not at all saying that he WILL be locked up. I am simply projecting the likely scenario. Vontae should be our most skilled corner. Provided that he stays healthy and takes to Pagano's coaching, he is quite likely our #1 corner.

As for the wall of text, if you care to read it, I explain my points. I don't just say that something is so and leave it at that. I support my points with arguments that I believe to be based on good reasoning. I don't think it is out of the realm of possibility for the team to look at extending Vontae before anyone here really expects it. If he buys in, and the team takes to it, he'll be re-upped. They didn't give up a 2nd for a 1-2 year rental. If things go as they hope, they'll be re-signing him sooner than later. That's why they traded for him, to have him here for several more years.

We traded a 2nd for Booger, he lasted one year. Corey Simon sure proved his worth didn't he? Sure, lets give the kid Revis money since the Dolphins couldn't stand his work ethic. It's not like getting buttloads of guaranteed money ever makes someone with questionable work ethic take it easy.

Anyways, the original point to my original post still stands. I passed along something another poster had said about Cary WIlliams. I'm not sure where that got off topic.

[mvbighead]

We traded a 2nd for Booger, he lasted one year. Corey Simon sure proved his worth didn't he? Sure, lets give the kid Revis money since the Dolphins couldn't stand his work ethic. It's not like getting buttloads of guaranteed money ever makes someone with questionable work ethic take it easy.

Anyways, the original point to my original post still stands. I passed along something another poster had said about Cary WIlliams. I'm not sure where that got off topic.

You sure like putting words in people's mouths. Here is what I actually said:

The way I see it, is IF they get Davis' head on straight, he'd be our ~10 million dollar guy. Hopefully they can push that number down.

As for Booger, torn ACL after his first year with us, if I recall. Simon came into camp way overweight.

The concerns with Vontae, IMO, are more about a new coaching staff and current player not getting along. They ousted Brandon Marshall, and now Vontae. Sometimes, all a player needs is a new place that believes in his talents. Seems the Colts do, as they gave up a 2 for him.

As for work ethic, I dunno that we can question his. They always talk about football shape, and they say they never get it until they've been through camp and practice, etc. I'd be willing to bet it's simply a matter of time before he's back on track. But as far as talent goes, many have said that he has it.

As for Cary Williams, you're referring to what another poster said. Well, by brother's wife's aunt's husband says Vontae is gonna be good, so it has to be true, right?

I just don't see the point of using a 2 to bring in a corner, and then turn around and spend big money on a FA, when they'll likely want to pay the guy they just brought in. As it is, good to very good corners are making a ton of money these days. If Cary becomes a FA, he could be looking at 10/year, just as a number of guys got that kind of deal this year (Brandon Carr, Jason McCourty, Finnegan, Webb, etc.). So if we're sitting on a guy we spent on 2 on who is doing well, versus bringing in a FA next year, I'd say it'd be more likely we give the large contract to the guy we spent a pick on to bring here.

As it is, I don't see us giving two guys 10 million a season annually, and the trend in the NFL seems to suggest that high quality starting CBs can demand that much. So I strongly doubt, after the Davis acquisition, that we spend our offseason money on another CB when we are sitting on two corners, both with a good amount of talent, and one who has displayed enough to be referred to as a potential top 15 corner. So, of 64 starters, he is capable of being in the top quarter. That's good enough for me.

And, all of this depends on how it works out in the future. Don't assume that I am just saying we hand it to him despite what happens in the coming season. I just see it as very likely if things go to plan. Otherwise, why would they give up a 2nd round pick to bring him here?

[krunk]

Great quote from Chuck Pagano,

I asked Pagano how concerned he was about Davis’ past indiscretions when the Colts were pursuing this trade.

“Not at all,” Pagano said. “When he came out early, he was only 20; now he’s 24. He’s very, very young. If I think back to when I was 20, 21, 22, some of the things I did, I was just glad it didn’t make the papers. When we sat down and visited (Monday morning), one of the first things he did was ask me about Ray Lewis and Ed Reed. When he asked about those two, I knew, looking into his eyes, he’s very serious about being something special.”

http://www.indystar.com/article/20120827/SPORTS15/120827032/Bob-Kravitz-Vontae-Davis-risk-Colts-needed-take?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|IndyStar.com

[Carlos Danger]

, I feel very good about the duo of Powers and Davis. Hopefully Rucker or someone can fill in at the nickel spot and we'll have a good coverage unit.

It'll have to be somebody other than Rucker.... He was waived today.

[Carlos Danger]

You sure like putting words in people's mouths. Here is what I actually said:

As for Booger, torn ACL after his first year with us, if I recall. Simon came into camp way overweight.

The concerns with Vontae, IMO, are more about a new coaching staff and current player not getting along. They ousted Brandon Marshall, and now Vontae. Sometimes, all a player needs is a new place that believes in his talents. Seems the Colts do, as they gave up a 2 for him.

As for work ethic, I dunno that we can question his. They always talk about football shape, and they say they never get it until they've been through camp and practice, etc. I'd be willing to bet it's simply a matter of time before he's back on track. But as far as talent goes, many have said that he has it.

As for Cary Williams, you're referring to what another poster said. Well, by brother's wife's aunt's husband says Vontae is gonna be good, so it has to be true, right?

I just don't see the point of using a 2 to bring in a corner, and then turn around and spend big money on a FA, when they'll likely want to pay the guy they just brought in. As it is, good to very good corners are making a ton of money these days. If Cary becomes a FA, he could be looking at 10/year, just as a number of guys got that kind of deal this year (Brandon Carr, Jason McCourty, Finnegan, Webb, etc.). So if we're sitting on a guy we spent on 2 on who is doing well, versus bringing in a FA next year, I'd say it'd be more likely we give the large contract to the guy we spent a pick on to bring here.

As it is, I don't see us giving two guys 10 million a season annually, and the trend in the NFL seems to suggest that high quality starting CBs can demand that much. So I strongly doubt, after the Davis acquisition, that we spend our offseason money on another CB when we are sitting on two corners, both with a good amount of talent, and one who has displayed enough to be referred to as a potential top 15 corner. So, of 64 starters, he is capable of being in the top quarter. That's good enough for me.

And, all of this depends on how it works out in the future. Don't assume that I am just saying we hand it to him despite what happens in the coming season. I just see it as very likely if things go to plan. Otherwise, why would they give up a 2nd round pick to bring him here?

I agree with you and will add that I do think that at least one of our lesser known corners will develop nicely under Pagano's guidance over the course of the year (and/or maybe next), further illustrating why we needn't grab a pricey corner in FA...

[Superman]

I agree with you and will add that I do think that at least one of our lesser known corners will develop nicely under Pagano's guidance over the course of the year (and/or maybe next), further illustrating why we needn't grab a pricey corner in FA...

I like Josh Gordy, from the little bit of time he got on Saturday.

[funktacious2]

I give the edge to Davis easily. He's not perfect, and has had some ethic issues, but he's more productive.