Polian: Kyle Orton Could Have Been A Colt

[Gavin]

But he built a team that made the playoffs in what....10-11 consecutive years...

With 10 wins or more every year....

Peyton didnt play defense

No Peyton didnt play defense he just covered up for our defense

[oldunclemark]

How many people would you say watched Reggie Waynes entire career whos not a Colts fan? not alot

Brackett is a middle linebacker, alot of times those are the defensive team captains, they have a view of everything on the field, Rob Morris I believe started in one our Super Bowl runs to if I remember right, and he certainly wasnt nothing special, Peyton took them their

Really?....Lots of NFL fans have watched the Colts since Manning's early days.

Its not possible for the QB to make the center and MLB all pro...

That's message board stuff

not logically debatable...in the real world

[GoColts8818]

I have yet to see if Saturday is a product of Peytons success or not, VanderJagt was a good pick up, Brackett he was alright but like I said a back up on many other teams, Rhodes, we should have never let him go, and Wayne is very good but no hall of famer, hes not elite

He's a center...Peyton Manning had no baring on rather Saturday is good at his job or not. It's not like Peyton was throwing passes to Saturday. Also you got to watch all of last season with Saturday without Manning and many people who know football said Saturday had one of his better seasons. In fact Saturday was one of the few people that Peyton Manning admitted could take some of the load off Manning shoulders but handling the o-line and making sure those five guys knew what they were doing on every play. Also Saturday was a very good run blocker which has zero to do with Peyton Manning. If you don't want to admit that Saturday was a good player for us with or without Peyton Manning that's up to you, just don't expect many people to agree with you on that.

Vandy was good as long as it wasn't a clutch situation. So Vinny was an even better pick up both good moves by Polian.

Brackett was a product of the system he was in which is what you can say about a lot of players who aren't superstars in the NFL. He worked in what the Colts did on defense. If he found another cover-2 team that didn't have a superstar at MLB he would be able to challenge for a starting job. However, the cover-2 based defense that the Colts used is not popular in the NFL right now.

Rhodes we had no choice on the Raiders paid him crazy money. That was a smart move to not match that contract. It was also a smart move to * him back up when the Raiders let him go and he also gave us a nice little spark for the playoff run in 2010.

Reggie's career isn't over let's see what his final numbers look like before we say he's a Hall-of-Famer or not. Rather people like him or not Reggie is the second best WR stat wise in Colts history. That has to count for something. He might not be the best WR in the NFL but he's not exactly Aaron Moorehead either. You don't have to be a Hall-of-Famer to be remembered as a good player.

[Gavin]

Really?....Lots of NFL fans have watched the Colts since Manning's early days.

Its not possible for the QB to make the center and MLB all pro...

That's message board stuff

not logically debatable...in the real world

It is if the quarterback is telling his linemen who to block at least half the time, Im not saying he wasnt good, cause he clearly was but I believe Manning made him better

[oldunclemark]

Not until the last few years..Gavin...

We did have a fast....speed based defense especially in the early part of the decade when Sanders was up and running.

I understand the ned to bash Polian.

He was somewhat of an SOB..

But let the record show..the players he picked made us good

[oldunclemark]

It is if the quarterback is telling his linemen who to block at least half the time, Im not saying he wasnt good, cause he clearly was but I believe Manning made him better

I suggest there's a difference between being 'told who to block' (I.e. ...what the play is)

...and doing said blocking... Give Saturday credit.....Manning didnt make him good

..Saturday also called blocking schemes.

Go back to Brackett...

This isnt your best arguement....

[Gavin]

He's a center...Peyton Manning had no baring on rather Saturday is good at his job or not. It's not like Peyton was throwing passes to Saturday. Also you got to watch all of last season with Saturday without Manning and many people who know football said Saturday had one of his better seasons. In fact Saturday was one of the few people that Peyton Manning admitted could take some of the load off Manning shoulders but handling the o-line and making sure those five guys knew what they were doing on every play. Also Saturday was a very good run blocker which has zero to do with Peyton Manning. If you don't want to admit that Saturday was a good player for us with or without Peyton Manning that's up to you, just don't expect many people to agree with you on that.

Vandy was good as long as it wasn't a clutch situation. So Vinny was an even better pick up both good moves by Polian.

Brackett was a product of the system he was in which is what you can say about a lot of players who aren't superstars in the NFL. He worked in what the Colts did on defense. If he found another cover-2 team that didn't have a superstar at MLB he would be able to challenge for a starting job. However, the cover-2 based defense that the Colts used is not popular in the NFL right now.

Rhodes we had no choice on the Raiders paid him crazy money. That was a smart move to not match that contract. It was also a smart move to * him back up when the Raiders let him go and he also gave us a nice little spark for the playoff run in 2010.

Reggie's career isn't over let's see what his final numbers look like before we say he's a Hall-of-Famer or not. Rather people like him or not Reggie is the second best WR stat wise in Colts history. That has to count for something. He might not be the best WR in the NFL but he's not exactly Aaron Moorehead either. You don't have to be a Hall-of-Famer to be remembered as a good player.

Completely agree all good points well said, Im still not sure if it was Peyton making all them hand signals and talking to his limemen like he did on numerous ocassions or not, Saturday was very good for us I definitly agree with that

[Jaric]

But he built a team that made the playoffs in what....10-11 consecutive years...

With 10 wins or more every year....

Peyton didnt play defense

Neither did the Colts

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Its a split decision.

Yeah, no. 154 regular season victories since 1998 is nothing near a split decision....especially when considering they'd only won 88 regular season games since coming to Indy in 84.

[oldunclemark]

Neither did the Colts

That's cold...jaric!!

'Zero in July' cold

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Gavin..Your evaluations are creative...

His evaluations are intellectually dishonest as a result of desiring a a specific outcome to this discussion.

[Gavin]

His evaluations are intellectually dishonest as a result of desiring a a specific outcome to this discussion.

what specific outcome would that be exactly?

[oldunclemark]

His evaluations are intellectually dishonest as a result of desiring a a specific outcome to this discussion.

I was just trying to be kind....BC...

[oldunclemark]

Yeah, no. 154 regular season victories since 1998 is nothing near a split decision....especially when considering they'd only won 88 regular season games since coming to Indy in 84.

Brian.....

You cherry=picked one sentence there.

I agree with YOU...

My ambivilence towards him is personal..the way he spoke to (and of) the fans.

Like others have said..I wasnt hurt when he was fired..because he just wanst a nice man..

.by all acounts (or Colts personell) and many public statements

but I'm sure glad he was hired....because of what he did for the franchise..

Its a split decsion for me

[Gavin]

Brian.....

You cherry=picked one sentence there.

I agree with YOU...

My ambivilence towards him is personal..the way he spoke to (and of) the fans.

Like others have said..I wasnt hurt when he was fired..because he just wanst a nice man..

.by all acounts (or Colts personell) and many public statements

but I'm sure glad he was hired....because of what he did for the franchise..

Its a split decsion for me

Um not to nit pick but how can he be hired for what he did for the franchise if he didnt do anything for the franchise before he was hired? :hmm:

[HarassedOffTheSite]

what specific outcome would that be exactly?

That (past the drafting of Peyton Manning) Bill Polian didn't deserve any credit for the performance of the Indianapolis Colts during the 12 years prior to his being fired.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Brian.....You cherry=picked one sentence there.

I'm allowed to.

I agree with YOU...

I know you do. But the facts show something far better than a split decision. So, I addressed that.

My ambivilence towards him is personal..the way he spoke to (and of) the fans.

I loved it when it was media directed. But after turning on the fans when he ditched the undefeated season...then I too began to have a problem with him.

but I'm sure glad he was hired....because of what he did for the franchise..

[Gavin]

That (past the drafting of Peyton Manning) Bill Polian didn't deserve any credit for the performance of the Indianapolis Colts during the 12 years prior to his being fired.

Well I would say that would be the case, look what happened when Peyton went down, the team fell apart, Im not saying he didnt have other good picks, Im just saying alot of those were a product of Peyton in one way or the other

[oldunclemark]

Um not to nit pick but how can he be hired for what he did for the franchise if he didnt do anything for the franchise before he was hired? :hmm:

I meant that I was glad he was hired....in Indy...because of what he did for the franchise.

Stand up..turn around..and read that sentence again....

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Well I would say that would be the case...

Yes, I know. That is why I correctly said that your evaluations are intellectually dishonest as a result of desiring a a specific outcome to this discussion.

[Gavin]

I meant that I was glad he was hired....in Indy...because of what he did for the franchise.

Stand up..turn around..and read that sentence again....

I read it wrong the first time, I took it to mean he did something for the franchise before he was hired, I was sitting here thinking, what the heck?!

[oldunclemark]

I'm allowed to.

I know you do. But the facts show something far better than a split decision. So, I addressed that.

I loved it when it was media directed. But after turning on the fans when he ditched the undefeated season...then I too began to have a problem with him.

....... and dont be so mean to Gavin...

...he's just a little bit wrong..

[Gavin]

....... and dont be so mean to Gavin...

...he's just a little bit wrong..

On what?

[21isSuperman]

I don't think there's much question as to Polian's drafting ability and his ability to build teams into contenders. He didn't do everything right, but his drafting was very well done, especially his late round choices and his undrafted rookie pickups

[Gavin]

I don't think there's much question as to Polian's drafting ability and his ability to build teams into contenders. He didn't do everything right, but his drafting was very well done, especially his late round choices and his undrafted rookie pickups

Describe what you mean by late round, 5-7?

[21isSuperman]

Describe what you mean by late round, 5-7?

Bethea, Mathis, Jake Scott, Garcon, Tyjuan Hagler, and Charlie Johnson were among his good late round picks. And let's not forget his undrafted guys like Brackett and Saturday. The man can draft

[HarassedOffTheSite]

I read it wrong the first time, I took it to mean he did something for the franchise before he was hired, I was sitting here thinking, what the heck?!

Hahaha yeah you threw me off with your response. I was starting to get confused.

[Gavin]

Bethea, Mathis, Jake Scott, Garcon, Tyjuan Hagler, and Charlie Johnson were among his good late round picks. And let's not forget his undrafted guys like Brackett and Saturday. The man can draft

he had some good picks no question but I wouldnt put Hagler and Johnson in with those, Hagler never broke the 60 tackle mark and only recorded two sacks and 1 interception

[Gavin]

Hahaha yeah you threw me off with your response. I was starting to get confused.

I thought what mark was trying to say, was that Polian did something for the franchise before he was hired, I was sitting here thinking....hmmm ok your going to have to explain that one

[HarassedOffTheSite]

....... and dont be so mean to Gavin......he's just a little bit wrong..

Facts are not mean. Neither is speaking them. People's sensibilities & interpretations are odd.

And he is wrong.

Bill Polian deserves a tremendous amount of credit for the accomplishments of the Indianapolis Colts. It is not logical to blame him for last season's debacle and then NOT praise him for the previous seasons and the success we enjoyed.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

I don't think there's much question as to Polian's drafting ability and his ability to build teams into contenders. He didn't do everything right, but his drafting was very well done, especially his late round choices and his undrafted rookie pickups

Don't be so mean.

[21isSuperman]

he had some good picks no question but I wouldnt put Hagler and Johnson in with those, Hagler never broke the 60 tackle mark and only recorded two sacks and 1 interception

Hagler was great on special teams. And he wasn't a great Ray Lewis type of LB (is it realistic to expect that from a late round pick?), but he did his job when he was put in to the games. He won't blow you away, but he will do a solid job for you. As for Johnson, he played LT pretty well when he was here and he played games at guard and tackle.

[GoColts8818]

Bethea, Mathis, Jake Scott, Garcon, Tyjuan Hagler, and Charlie Johnson were among his good late round picks. And let's not forget his undrafted guys like Brackett and Saturday. The man can draft

Add to that mcafee and conner

[Gavin]

Facts are not mean. Neither is speaking them. People's sensibilities & interpretations are odd.

And he is wrong.

Bill Polian deserves a tremendous amount of credit for the accomplishments of the Indianapolis Colts. It is not logical to blame him for last season's debacle and then NOT praise him for the previous season's and the success we enjoyed.

I certainly wouldnt say tremendous considering 12-15 or so of the players he actually picked worked out really but that depends on your definition of success, not including his picks the last two years considering its to early to tell I think

[21isSuperman]

Add to that mcafee and conner

Yes, sir! I knew I was forgetting a few. Jamey Richard also did well when he filled in for Saturday in 2008

[#12]

But he built a team that made the playoffs in what....10-11 consecutive years...

With 10 wins or more every year....

Peyton didnt play defense

Neither did most of the defensive players Polian drafted.

[#12]

So the answer to my question is yes. ;)

How about we go with Jim Irsay's perspective:

Polian's draftees include Edgerrin James, Joseph Addai, Reggie Wayne, Pierre Garcon, Austin Collie, Dwight Freeney, Robert Mathis, Bob Sanders, Antoine Bethea, Marlin Jackson, Dallas Clark. Polian signed free agents in Jeff Saturday, Mike Vanderjagt, Dominic Rhodes, Gary Brackett.

http://www.colts.com...aa-983c7faf9a97

In 14 years, I'd hope you could pick out a few names he hit on. You can with every GM. Here's the problem: look at the team as a whole. For the majority of Polian's tenure, the defense and special teams were abysmal while the running game was substandard. Few QBs in the history of the game could have won with those teams.

[Superman]

In 14 years, I'd hope you could pick out a few names he hit on. You can with every GM. Here's the problem: look at the team as a whole. For the majority of Polian's tenure, the defense and special teams were abysmal while the running game was substandard. Few QBs in the history of the game could have won with those teams.

This is not true, especially the bolded.. The majority of Polian's tenure, we were a very good running team.

The defense was up and down for a variety of reasons, and Polian could have done much better with the defense, but the organization made a conscientious decision to use more resources on offense, given the quarterback we had. It's also noteworthy that we let several linebackers walk over the course of five or six years, and most of them signed big contracts with other teams. Dungy also wanted smaller, faster defensive players, which affected Polian's drafting. The shortcomings of the defense weren't just the fault of Polian's drafting; it was a systemic issue, but it also resulted in a lot of wins. Hard to fault that.

[Superman]

Just read Peter King's MMQB, and he mentions something I hadn't thought of with this Kyle Orton issue. It was only after Week 6 that we put Collins on IR. Painter had started a couple games by then, and had played better than Collins to that point. But I can understand the front office looking at Orton and thinking that he could positively impact our passing game, especially at that point in the season. Technically speaking, we weren't even mathematically eliminated at that point; the Texans only won ten games last year. And the way Orton played when he took over in KC speaks volumes to his ability as a quarterback. Had he been our guy all season long, we're probably at least a five or six win team.

And if we had wound up with the 3rd or 4th pick in the draft, instead of the first, we have to decide whether we want to trade up for Luck, or keep Manning and trade down. That would have been a significantly different situation than where we wound up. I'm torn, as a Manning fan, but I think it worked out for the best, as a Colts fan. That is, until Manning wins two MVPs and another Super Bowl in Denver.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

In 14 years, I'd hope you could pick out a few names he hit on.

I listed 15......not "a few".