Kenny Moore - The Safety

[Scott Pennock]

Posing this Madden style question…..

 

In your own opinion would Moore as a Safety be better for the overall performance of defense than Moore as the Nickel?

 

He did play a lot of safety at Valdosta State in College. 
 

Makes me wonder if all of Brents, Jones and Flowers could handle the outside and slot if the defense would be better with Moore as a safety?

 

I’m not suggesting this is what the team will do, or should do……just a question for you gurus out there! 😊

[chad72]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!!!

[GoColts8818]

He’s maybe the best slot corner in the NFL and that’s why the Colts paid him.  I don’t see them moving at this point in his career.

[Hoose]

That’s a creative thought. But I think the Colts need a proven FS to man that position. Keep Kenny in the slot and improve the back end with a new FA? Now you’re talking!

[ProblChld32]

46 minutes ago, Scott Pennock said:

Posing this Madden style question…..

 

In your own opinion would Moore as a Safety be better for the overall performance of defense than Moore as the Nickel?

 

He did play a lot of safety at Valdosta State in College. 
 

Makes me wonder if all of Brents, Jones and Flowers could handle the outside and slot if the defense would be better with Moore as a safety?

 

I’m not suggesting this is what the team will do, or should do……just a question for you gurus out there! 😊

He is a bit on the smaller side, I don’t think his body has the capability to sustain the west and tear of the season taking all of those blows that a safety is asked to take.

[ColtStrong2013]

If that were even in the thought process, Q Nelson would have been our left tackle years ago… After all, he had played some (a whole 8 snaps) and was commanding left tackle money. 
 

like @chad72 said… if it ain’t broke don’t fix it. Dont even think about it. We know what we have at slot corner. Go find a free safety. 
 

 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Kenny really plays a safety/hybrid role already.

[NewColtsFan]

12 hours ago, Scott Pennock said:

Posing this Madden style question…..

 

In your own opinion would Moore as a Safety be better for the overall performance of defense than Moore as the Nickel?

 

He did play a lot of safety at Valdosta State in College. 
 

Makes me wonder if all of Brents, Jones and Flowers could handle the outside and slot if the defense would be better with Moore as a safety?

 

I’m not suggesting this is what the team will do, or should do……just a question for you gurus out there! 😊

Hey, Scott!  
 

Here’s what I’ve read.   In the defense Ballard wants to run, the nickel is the key position in the secondary when they have at least 5 DBs or more on the field.  It’s seen as a more attack-oriented position.  And you can disguise some of the attacks more easily.  Honestly, I think it plays right into Kenny’s very aggressive personality.   I wouldn’t want to change strength of the defense.  
 

I get wanting to upgrade the safeties.  I think Nick Cross is about to get his big opportunity.   Not sure about the other spot?   Daniel Scott?   Don’t know.  A free agent signing or two?   Not sure.   But I think we’ll have a better idea in a week or two. 

[lollygagger8]

[cjwhiskers]

Lots of good corners move to safety towards the end of their career. I don’t think that’s the case with Kenny just yet but maybe in a few more years. 

[DougDew]

4 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

Here’s what I’ve read.   In the defense Ballard wants to run, the nickel is the key position in the secondary when they have at least 5 DBs or more on the field.  It’s seen as a more attack-oriented position.  And you can disguise some of the attacks more easily.  Honestly, I think it plays right into Kenny’s very aggressive personality.   I wouldn’t want to change strength of the defense.  

Thanks for explaining how that works.  You have an interesting way to look at it.  See, I would have said that the reason a JAG like Moore is succeeding is because the defense is designed for a player playing that position to succeed.  Many other reasonably good players could probably do as well.

 

Kinda like a WILL in Flus' 43.

[BlackTiger]

18 hours ago, Scott Pennock said:

Posing this Madden style question…..

In madden it would be a fun idea and probably work if you could user play him

 

In real life i think hes a bit small to come down hill and make hits in the running game.  We are thin at both CB and safety too, i think id rather be thin at safety 

[NewColtsFan]

21 hours ago, DougDew said:

Thanks for explaining how that works.  You have an interesting way to look at it.  See, I would have said that the reason a JAG like Moore is succeeding is because the defense is designed for a player playing that position to succeed.  Many other reasonably good players could probably do as well.

 

Kinda like a WILL in Flus' 43.

Doug!   You’re back after some time away.   Welcome home!   
 

So let’s see….   First, it’s not MY funny way of looking at things.   What I wrote wasn’t my opinion, it’s what I’ve read.  
 

Second….    You calling Kenny Moore a JAG is a first for you.  You’ve never made that claim.   So before writing this post, I double checked with PFF.   Moore has been with the Colts for 7 seasons.   He has graded out as a very good corner for 4 seasons.   18, 19, 20, 23.   An above average corner for 2 seasons.  17 and 21.  And a below average corner one season 22.    He’s been the highest paid nickel corner for 4 years.  And his new contract likely keeps him as the high paid.  
 

But you’ve called him a JAG.   
 

I think we should put to rest your amazement that I often seem to remember your posts so clearly.   There’s no one else who makes the comments you do.  They're not hard to remember.  Like the one you made about a month ago….   And I quote….

 

”Jonathan Taylor sucks.  And he has sucked every year he’s been a Colt.”  This is on your Mount Rushmore of astounding comments.   Think of what you could have said….  You could have said “I think Taylor is over-rated”. OR “he’s not my favorite type of running back”.  OR “I don’t think he’s as good as his supporters think he is.”  You would’ve been safe with ANY of those.  
 

But you said JT sucks and has sucked every year he’s been a Colt.   
 

Welcome back, Doug.   You sure you want to go down this road?  

 

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

Doug!   You’re back after some time away.   Welcome home!   
 

So let’s see….   First, it’s not MY funny way of looking at things.   What I wrote wasn’t my opinion, it’s what I’ve read.  
 

Second….    You calling Kenny Moore a JAG is a first for you.  You’ve never made that claim.   So before writing this post, I double checked with PFF.   Moore has been with the Colts for 7 seasons.   He has graded out as a very good corner for 4 seasons.   18, 19, 20, 23.   An above average corner for 2 seasons.  17 and 21.  And a below average corner one season 22.    He’s been the highest paid nickel corner for 4 years.  And his new contract likely keeps him as the high paid.  
 

But you’ve called him a JAG.   
 

I think we should put to rest your amazement that I often seem to remember your posts so clearly.   There’s no one else who makes the comments you do.  They're not hard to remember.  Like the one you made about a month ago….   And I quote….

 

”Jonathan Taylor sucks.  And he has sucked every year he’s been a Colt.”  This is on your Mount Rushmore of astounding comments.   Think of what you could have said….  You could have said “I think Taylor is over-rated”. OR “he’s not my favorite type of running back”.  OR “I don’t think he’s as good as his supporters think he is.”  You would’ve been safe with ANY of those.  
 

But you said JT sucks and has sucked every year he’s been a Colt.   
 

Welcome back, Doug.   You sure you want to go down this road?  

 

No big deal.  I just see it the right way and the person who wrote the obvious Moore support pieces is peddling pro-colts player dogma.

 

This is the time of year when we think of market value.  I would see it as any player who is a fit for a certain scheme....that by our understanding is a unique "Gus-scheme" would have less value on the open market because he is less of a good fit for every other non Gus scheme.  (To the writer, apparently...Moore is specialized to only one team...so he turns it around like we are suppose to think it makes Moore MORE valuable (from a price perspective). 

 

But to simply say that because Moore is so good in one unique Gus' scheme, it makes him more valuable as a slot corner...that flies in the face of how the concept of MARKET VALUE actually works in business.

 

Having said that, I don't have a problem with the Moore contract, or any contract.  Its weird that people do, because with all of the shuffling of contracts, salary cap increases, restructures, push backs etc, nobody really understands the consequences of most contracts, so they really don't have a basis for praising it or criticizing it...but yet many here do any way.

 

You just come from that media background who actually thinks the media people know more about football than the average forum member, who don't understand anything until they are lectured.  And then read things to fit that highness position.  Like the JT thing....I never said he sucks.  He doesn't.  What I said is that he is not particularly elusive as a lateral runner, in part why he is asked to run between the tackles a lot.  And that he's not a particularly good pass backer.  But that he is a unique big play threat from between the OTs.  And a player I don't have an issue with his contract.  That hardly sounds like I think he sucks.   

 

But I guess if I don't act like an ignorant fan plebe who has to learn via lecture by the pro-colts pro-hype media about how "special and essential" JT is to the offense, my opinion has to be marginalized by pretending that I said he sucks.

[shasta519]

Like an in-the-box S who exclusively plays near the LOS and doesn't have to cover much past that? Sure, that's largely his role now. Which is why I wanted to see them try to fill that role via the draft.

 

But as a FS? I think that seems very counterintuitive. For starters, you would lose what he brings in run defense, which IMO, is by far his most valuable trait at this point (in addition to leadership).

 

Secondly, he would likely be a massive liability having to cover downfield. He's never done that and he's also not very big. In Gus' system, his aDOT last year was the second-lowest of all CBs (around 4 yds), likely by design. He struggled defending 8 yds downfield...so if the aDOT was twice that (like it can be for FSs), I think teams would target him.  

 

[shasta519]

2 hours ago, DougDew said:

No big deal.  I just see it the right way and the person who wrote the obvious Moore support pieces is peddling pro-colts player dogma.

 

This is the time of year when we think of market value.  I would see it as any player who is a fit for a certain scheme....that by our understanding is a unique "Gus-scheme" would have less value on the open market because he is less of a good fit for every other non Gus scheme.  (To the writer, apparently...Moore is specialized to only one team...so he turns it around like we are suppose to think it makes Moore MORE valuable (from a price perspective). 

 

But to simply say that because Moore is so good in one unique Gus' scheme, it makes him more valuable as a slot corner...that flies in the face of how the concept of MARKET VALUE actually works in business.

 

Having said that, I don't have a problem with the Moore contract, or any contract.  Its weird that people do, because with all of the shuffling of contracts, salary cap increases, restructures, push backs etc, nobody really understands the consequences of most contracts, so they really don't have a basis for praising it or criticizing it...but yet many here do any way.

 

It's not just Gus' scheme. He was really bad in the same scheme in 2022, so teams likely factor that in. It's that he's a limited player, who can only play inside. 

 

I also don't think other teams (like Colts fans) forgot how bad he was in 2022, or near the end of 2021. It's on the tape. And even last season, many of his stats did not rank well: https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/kenny-moore/

 

CBs stat-tracking and grading can be tough, given it's hard to definitively know coverage assignments, so always have to take with a grain of salt. But his stats do not match up with his PFF grade (who places huge emphasis on big plays).

 

And on that note, he had two pick 6s in the same game. But outside of that game, and even with the second-lowest aDOT of any CB, his stats were much more like 2022 than "the best slot CB in the NFL." You can see from the link above, and PFR has his passer rating in those other 16 games as 113 (vs. 117 in 2022).

 

The Colts also played a bottom 5 strength of schedule on defense and a slew of bad QBs last year (like a rookie Bryce Young).  

 

Down the stretch, we started to see late 2021 and 2022 Kenny. 4 TDs allowed in 3 games, a 140+ passer rating allowed. Plays like:

• Kyle Pitts TD where Kenny isn't even close
• Diontae Johnson TD where he's 4 steps too late
• Tanner Hudson TD where he just lets Hudson catch it and then gets dragged into the EZ
• Chase Brown TD where he's slow to come over, takes a bad angle, gets tossed out of the play and Brown takes it all the way for a TD

 

Now he's going to be a year older, at a position where guys lose it fast. And he already can't cover downfield.

 

I am sure people think I am a Kenny Moore hater...and that's perfectly fine. Because after watching this guy for the past 3 years (two of them in the current system), I feel like I am taking crazy pills with how he's perceived. The comeback narrative was so predictable too...the media was even writing about it BEFORE this past season. Even before the CAR game too.

 

I don't care about the contract so much, it's the idea of committing to an aging CB (for more money) who can only play inside (with questionable coverage). It's a position they should be able to fill with a draft pick or should have somebody ready to take over. 

 

Assuming the Colts SoS gets tougher (as it should), by mid season, I predict people will be saying "what happened to last year's Kenny Moore?" with the more negative people claiming that "Moore is washed."

 

Which is actually what people were saying BEFORE last season's "comeback" when he was discussed as a potential cut candidate.

[chad72]

We have that guy in Jaylon Jones who can definitely be tried out at safety but yeah, Nick Cross will get his shot this year.

[smittywerb]

He has the IQ and tackling ability to do so, but I don’t think he has the closing speed to hang.

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, shasta519 said:

 

It's not just Gus' scheme. He was really bad in the same scheme in 2022, so teams likely factor that in. It's that he's a limited player, who can only play inside. 

 

I also don't think other teams (like Colts fans) forgot how bad he was in 2022, or near the end of 2021. It's on the tape. And even last season, many of his stats did not rank well: https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/kenny-moore/

 

CBs stat-tracking and grading can be tough, given it's hard to definitively know coverage assignments, so always have to take with a grain of salt. But his stats do not match up with his PFF grade (who places huge emphasis on big plays).

 

And on that note, he had two pick 6s in the same game. But outside of that game, and even with the second-lowest aDOT of any CB, his stats were much more like 2022 than "the best slot CB in the NFL." You can see from the link above, and PFR has his passer rating in those other 16 games as 113 (vs. 117 in 2022).

 

The Colts also played a bottom 5 strength of schedule on defense and a slew of bad QBs last year (like a rookie Bryce Young).  

 

Down the stretch, we started to see late 2021 and 2022 Kenny. 4 TDs allowed in 3 games, a 140+ passer rating allowed. Plays like:

• Kyle Pitts TD where Kenny isn't even close
• Diontae Johnson TD where he's 4 steps too late
• Tanner Hudson TD where he just lets Hudson catch it and then gets dragged into the EZ
• Chase Brown TD where he's slow to come over, takes a bad angle, gets tossed out of the play and Brown takes it all the way for a TD

 

Now he's going to be a year older, at a position where guys lose it fast. And he already can't cover downfield.

 

I am sure people think I am a Kenny Moore hater...and that's perfectly fine. Because after watching this guy for the past 3 years (two of them in the current system), I feel like I am taking crazy pills with how he's perceived. The comeback narrative was so predictable too...the media was even writing about it BEFORE this past season. Even before the CAR game too.

 

I don't care about the contract so much, it's the idea of committing to an aging CB (for more money) who can only play inside (with questionable coverage). It's a position they should be able to fill with a draft pick or should have somebody ready to take over. 

 

Assuming the Colts SoS gets tougher (as it should), by mid season, I predict people will be saying "what happened to last year's Kenny Moore?" with the more negative people claiming that "Moore is washed."

 

Which is actually what people were saying BEFORE last season's "comeback" when he was discussed as a potential cut candidate.

Some folks have a love/hate opinion of Moore.  I think he's a guy that fits the system. 

 

My issue is that he should not be valued for our he fits our system, but by what his value is in OTHER systems, then offer him a dollar more than what they would offer.  You don't say Moore deserves his money because he is uniquely valuable to us, because saying that means you are also saying that he is uniquely less valuable in every other system...so why get cornered into paying him a high price when nobody else would.

 

Having said that, I have no idea what his contract actually is or what his value is.  It may be fine.  Just saying that the basis of the support mentioned seemed to not make sense to me.  But that it tends to support the idea that Moore is a product of Gus; system, like Leonard was in Flus' system.

[NewColtsFan]

4 hours ago, DougDew said:

No big deal.  I just see it the right way and the person who wrote the obvious Moore support pieces is peddling pro-colts player dogma.

 

This is the time of year when we think of market value.  I would see it as any player who is a fit for a certain scheme....that by our understanding is a unique "Gus-scheme" would have less value on the open market because he is less of a good fit for every other non Gus scheme.  (To the writer, apparently...Moore is specialized to only one team...so he turns it around like we are suppose to think it makes Moore MORE valuable (from a price perspective). 

 

But to simply say that because Moore is so good in one unique Gus' scheme, it makes him more valuable as a slot corner...that flies in the face of how the concept of MARKET VALUE actually works in business.

 

Having said that, I don't have a problem with the Moore contract, or any contract.  Its weird that people do, because with all of the shuffling of contracts, salary cap increases, restructures, push backs etc, nobody really understands the consequences of most contracts, so they really don't have a basis for praising it or criticizing it...but yet many here do any way.

 

You just come from that media background who actually thinks the media people know more about football than the average forum member, who don't understand anything until they are lectured.  And then read things to fit that highness position.  Like the JT thing....I never said he sucks.  He doesn't.  What I said is that he is not particularly elusive as a lateral runner, in part why he is asked to run between the tackles a lot.  And that he's not a particularly good pass backer.  But that he is a unique big play threat from between the OTs.  And a player I don't have an issue with his contract.  That hardly sounds like I think he sucks.   

 

But I guess if I don't act like an ignorant fan plebe who has to learn via lecture by the pro-colts pro-hype media about how "special and essential" JT is to the offense, my opinion has to be marginalized by pretending that I said he sucks.

FWIW:   The source of the view of Kenny Moore is this website.   That’s why the writer knows so much about Moore and the Colts defense.   
 

As to JT….   I’m sure you’ve made the comments you’re now referring to in the past.   But you’ve also made the comment I stated you did.   100 percent.   Two sentences.   Jonathan Taylor sucks.  And has sucked every year he’s been a Colt.   You absolutely did.   In fact I’ve called you out on it before this discussion.  And you didn’t deny it.  It happened roughly around the end of the year.  And I have no history of making things up with you and I’m being as candid as I can be.   
 

Regarding your view of the media.   Not surprised.  It’s really your view of me, but you didn’t want to say it.  But I’ll play along.   Why would I think a member of the media, who covers the NFL for a living, who talks to owners, general managers, coaches, scouts and players, why would I think the media would know more than the average fan who doesn’t do any of that?   You’re entitled to any view you want, but facts are a stubborn thing.  Logic and facts lead me to my viewpoint which is 180 degrees different than yours.  
 

And my constant reminder.  I’m wrong plenty.  I’m wrong all the time.  Sometimes ridiculously wrong.  I’ve been embarrassed plenty by some of my posts.  I try my best, but sometimes still fall short.  I’m human But, on balance,  I can live with my batting average.  

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

FWIW:   The source of the view of Kenny Moore is this website.   That’s why the writer knows so much about Moore and the Colts defense.   
 

As to JT….   I’m sure you’ve made the comments you’re now referring to in the past.   But you’ve also made the comment I stated you did.   100 percent.   Two sentences.   Jonathan Taylor sucks.  And has sucked every year he’s been a Colt.   You absolutely did.   In fact I’ve called you out on it before this discussion.  And you didn’t deny it.  It happened roughly around the end of the year.  And I have no history of making things up with you and I’m being as candid as I can be.   
 

Regarding your view of the media.   Not surprised.  It’s really your view of me, but you didn’t want to say it.  But I’ll play along.   Why would I think a member of the media, who covers the NFL for a living, who talks to owners, general managers, coaches, scouts and players, why would I think the media would know more than the average fan who doesn’t do any of that?   You’re entitled to any view you want, but facts are a stubborn thing.  Logic and facts lead me to my viewpoint which is 180 degrees different than yours.  
 

And my constant reminder.  I’m wrong plenty.  I’m wrong all the time.  Sometimes ridiculously wrong.  I’ve been embarrassed plenty by some of my posts.  I try my best, but sometimes still fall short.  I’m human But, on balance,  I can live with my batting average.  

You have a habit of digging up ancillary topics spanning weeks, months, or years, in a somewhat confrontational if not whiny way.  No further response from me necessary.

• For my current thoughts on the subject of Kenny Moore, please refer to my response to Shasta just above.  Thank you.

[shakedownstreet]

[GoColts8818]

On 3/14/2024 at 3:41 PM, shakedownstreet said:

Kenny being a leader again.