Jonathan Taylor comments on his contract/Request trade (Merge)

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

In the end it comes down to QB.   You either have one or you don't.   A Marshall Faulk type back would set the market for backs today.   He lined up out wide pretty regularly 

I posted something similar earlier = your first sentence. If you have a Tom Brady, Joe Montana, Peyton Manning, Johnny U, Pat Mahomes, John Elway, or even an Aaron Rodgers you can pretty much win 12 games a season in your sleep. Mahomes lost Hill and they still won the SB  . Brady basically made guys like Wes Welker and Edelman look like Hall of Famers, Peyton made a guy like Blair White look like a solid #3 at worse + he found a way to win 2 SB's, Rodgers has never had a great WR other than Devante Adams and he usually wins around 75% of his games + won a SB without a great WR - his best WR was Greg Jennings in 2010 when he won his SB (sounds like a news reporter's name , ) Joe Montana won 2 SB's without Jerry Rice in 81/84. Great QB's find a way.

[2006Coltsbestever]

For craps and giggles what are confused about? Not 1 thing I posted is false. If a team has a great QB as in all-time great QB they will find ways to win. I was just agreeing with Jvan basically. It is funny because when Hill left the Chiefs, there were some in the media and even a few in here that said the Chiefs would miss the playoffs. How did that turn out?

[w87r]

6 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

But he didn't sign the tag.  He signed a 1 year deal

Doesn't matter, once the team places the tag on the player(whether signed or not), it counts as using the tag.

[DougDew]

Some of the homerism is obvious.

 

We praise SS for being a QB whisperer and have great expectations for how AR will develop and be used because of the past history SS has displayed with Hurts and Herbert.

 

Based upon that past history to then judge RBs, SS is going to want either a pass catcher at RB (Ekelar) or more of a scat back type of RB (Sanders).   JT is neither of those kinds of RBs.

 

Which is why Ballard has said to let the season play out and see how it works together, which is what I said about JT the day SS was drafted.   JT might show that the only exceptional skill he has for the NFL is breaking occasional and unpredictable big plays from between the OTs.  Lets hope he shows more this season.  If he doesn't, SS probably wants a new RB.

[John Hammonds]

FWIW, this all seemed to blow up when Jim Irsay tweeted (or X'ed???) his piece criticizing "some agents" negotiating in bad faith.

 

Irsay hasn't yet learned what the founder of my employer said a long time ago:

 

"Listen much; say little; write nothing." -- John Pierpont Morgan

 

In modern parlance:  "Don't press send."

[teganslaw]

I got confused with all the contract negotiations throughout the NFL. JT isn't a free agent, as many explained to me. 

 

Jim Irsay is walking back his earlier comments, saying that the tweet wasn't about Taylor. He was referring to the general RB situation. Irsay claimed that negotiations haven't began. Maybe Irsay should have made that clear in the first place. He' has good points as an owner, but sometimes needs to stay in the background. Or at least think before speaking and getting everyone upset. 

[Nickster]

8 hours ago, CR91 said:

 

I honestly don't get the point of the tag then if teams are gonna use it just to have leverage on players. It's a broken system 

I don’t necessarily disagree with this.  But there are advantages of tagging for the league as a whole, in preventing paying big money for past performance.

 

And also certain players.  For instance when LB signed his deal after the hold out he sucked. But that 27 mill guaranteed was locked up under the cap and when he proved to be ineffective, none of that 27 mill went to another more deserving, valuable players on the Jets.

 

 

[Nickster]

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

Some of the homerism is obvious.

 

We praise SS for being a QB whisperer and have great expectations for how AR will develop and be used because of the past history SS has displayed with Hurts and Herbert.

 

Based upon that past history to then judge RBs, SS is going to want either a pass catcher at RB (Ekelar) or more of a scat back type of RB (Sanders).   JT is neither of those kinds of RBs.

 

Which is why Ballard has said to let the season play out and see how it works together, which is what I said about JT the day SS was drafted.   JT might show that the only exceptional skill he has for the NFL is breaking occasional and unpredictable big plays from between the OTs.  Lets hope he shows more this season.  If he doesn't, SS probably wants a new RB.

But that would shatter some of the emotional pallets here on Colts.com.

[Nickster]

1 hour ago, John Hammonds said:

FWIW, this all seemed to blow up when Jim Irsay tweeted (or X'ed???) his piece criticizing "some agents" negotiating in bad faith.

 

Irsay hasn't yet learned what the founder of my employer said a long time ago:

 

"Listen much; say little; write nothing." -- John Pierpont Morgan

 

In modern parlance:  "Don't press send."

this!

[Nickster]

1 hour ago, John Hammonds said:

FWIW, this all seemed to blow up when Jim Irsay tweeted (or X'ed???) his piece criticizing "some agents" negotiating in bad faith.

 

Irsay hasn't yet learned what the founder of my employer said a long time ago:

 

"Listen much; say little; write nothing." -- John Pierpont Morgan

 

In modern parlance:  "Don't press send."

And saying is often the same as writing now since so much stays on tape.

[Jackie Daytona]

8 hours ago, CR91 said:

 

So if your co-worker was making twice as much as you because they were doing a different job then you even though you're just as much as part of the success of the team, you wouldn't be upset?

No?  Seriously, in what reality does this NOT happen?  The farmers market Kombucha stand?  Ever seen a "manager?"

[Jackie Daytona]

7 hours ago, CR91 said:

 

It's not irrelevant. Why should Pittman make 20+ mil while Taylor can't even get 14? Pittman hasn't put up remotely close to the numbers Taylor has. Don't get it wrong. I like Pitt, but you don't see how hypocritical this situation is?

 

That's my point.

I don't think hypocritical means what you think it means.

[Jackie Daytona]

7 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

In the end it comes down to QB.   You either have one or you don't.   A Marshall Faulk type back would set the market for backs today.   He lined up out wide pretty regularly 

No kidding....CMC

[Jackie Daytona]

1 hour ago, John Hammonds said:

FWIW, this all seemed to blow up when Jim Irsay tweeted (or X'ed???) his piece criticizing "some agents" negotiating in bad faith.

 

Irsay hasn't yet learned what the founder of my employer said a long time ago:

 

"Listen much; say little; write nothing." -- John Pierpont Morgan

 

In modern parlance:  "Don't press send."

Yet again...... 

 

Irsay is a member of the ownership finance committee.  It is literally his "job" to occasionally weigh in on finance and CBA matters.  The entire RB fiasco and suggesting in public that the CBA (that the finance committee is/was heavily involved in) was negotiated in bad faith.... Is exactly the type of thing Irsay should be expected to weigh in on....  Irsay needing to "learn something" is the joke here.

[stitches]

Kevin Bowen brought up something. When Darius Leonard was up for extension(same agent), he missed the first 10 days of training camp, then they extended him then he was back practicing 2 days later. This is most likely this agent's modus operandi. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

5 minutes ago, stitches said:

Kevin Bowen brought up something. When Darius Leonard was up for extension(same agent), he missed the first 10 days of training camp, then they extended him then he was back practicing 2 days later. This is most likely this agent's modus operandi. 

Could be, I am not sure on this one though. 

[coltsfan1965]

Here's what I think Ballard thinks. It may also be what Irsay thinks. JT was great two years ago. Last year, he was possibly great on an awful team and he got hurt. Even if he is great again this year, the playoffs are unlikely at best. That pushes it to next year at the earliest as far as him making a real impact. I hate to say it but running backs have a limited life span.

I love JT, but I'm wondering if he's worth more in draft capital from a contender than he is when the Colts could really use him. 

[GoColts8818]

8 hours ago, CR91 said:

 

I'm not talking position. I'm talking the player. Is Taylor better then Pittman?

That’s not how it works in the NFL and that’s why running backs are upset that their position has become devalued.

[pkbrux]

I think its funny seeing so many here get worked up over this situation. I just can't bring myself to get worked up over a RB, especially one who isn't a great receiver or pass blocker.

 

Is JT a great runner with the ball in his hands? Clearly. If they sign him to a team friendly deal, great! If not, they will play some rookie RB or cheap vet who will do a fine job at a fraction of the cost and the Colts can use that money on a more important position.

[jvan1973]

4 minutes ago, pkbrux said:

I think its funny seeing so many here get worked up over this situation. I just can't bring myself to get worked up over a RB, especially one who isn't a great receiver or pass blocker.

 

Is JT a great runner with the ball in his hands? Clearly. If they sign him to a team friendly deal, great! If not, they will play some rookie RB or cheap vet who will do a fine job at a fraction of the cost and the Colts can use that money on a more important position.

JT when given the opportunities has been a very good pass catcher.   I'm not sure where that narrative is coming from. 

[CR91]

6 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

The fact that Mahomes can exceed with no name WRs doesn’t prove that the NFL doesn’t value WRs more  than RBs.  
 

You had to go back almost 20 years to talk about Blair White.  And you forgot that Peyton had TWO HoF WRs named Harrison and Wayne plus a top tight end named Clark.  That’s not a good argument.   
 

 

That's not what the argument was about. Poster said WR was premium for team success. I was giving QBs that excelled without top dollar WRs. Nothing about what the NFL values more. Of course it's WRs over RBs.

[pkbrux]

1 minute ago, jvan1973 said:

JT when given the opportunities has been a very good pass catcher.   I'm not sure where that narrative is coming from. 

 

He isn't a natural or fluid catcher of the ball. He is fine on screens and short dump offs, but anything else is dicey.

[CR91]

1 hour ago, Jackie Daytona said:

No?  Seriously, in what reality does this NOT happen?  The farmers market Kombucha stand?  Ever seen a "manager?"

 

I don't even know how to respond to this. Do you even get the point I was making?

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, jvan1973 said:

JT when given the opportunities has been a very good pass catcher.   I'm not sure where that narrative is coming from. 

I am not either regarding that narrative and he also has made some key blocks in his career. I remember 1 play he saved Wentz from getting creamed as JT took out a LB. If I find the clip, I will have to post that. JT is very capable of catching screen passes and breaking one big with his speed. Shane probably already pictures this.

[jvan1973]

9 minutes ago, pkbrux said:

 

He isn't a natural or fluid catcher of the ball. He is fine on screens and short dump offs, but anything else is dicey.

His first 2 seasons he looked pretty good.   Similar ypc as CMC.  Just far fewer opportunities 

[pkbrux]

1 minute ago, jvan1973 said:

His first 2 seasons he looked pretty good.   Similar ypc as CMC.  Just far fewer opportunities 

 

You can't even mention Taylor and CMC as receivers in the same breath. CMC could legitimately play slot receiver in the NFL, Taylor can catch screen passes.

 

I didn't bring up his lack of elite receiving or pass blocking to knock Taylor, just as a point to say that if I were going to pay a RB big money (and I wouldn't under any circumstances), he better be an elite receiver and pass blocker like pre-ACL tear Edge.

[superrep1967]

A RB is a receiver, a blocker and of course runs the ball. A WR is a blocker and catches the ball if they get a ball. The RB does all three and at least one on every offensive play. So, to say RB is less valuable than as receiver to me is ridiculous especially one that is as good as Taylor is. So, I don't blame Taylor for his frustration in all this. I love Taylor and he would probably lead the league in rushing again.  They should sign him and make him happy and be done with it. I mean could you imagine how good the running game could be with Richardson and Taylor. I mean Ballard made it seem like it was Taylor's fault for our faliures last season and it absolutly wasn't  the o-line played terrible last season and Taylor was injured. I mean there were alot issues in many areas last season that caused our very bad play last season sign him and be done with this already. 

[Nickster]

1 hour ago, Jackie Daytona said:

Yet again...... 

 

Irsay is a member of the ownership finance committee.  It is literally his "job" to occasionally weigh in on finance and CBA matters.  The entire RB fiasco and suggesting in public that the CBA (that the finance committee is/was heavily involved in) was negotiated in bad faith.... Is exactly the type of thing Irsay should be expected to weigh in on....  Irsay needing to "learn something" is the joke here.

 

It seems to have triggered his reportedly all around great guy running back, upon whom so much praise from management has been heaped though doesn't it Jackie D?  

 

Maybe JI didn't do it "on purpose" or to send "a message" but one could argue that it's a stunning lack of awareness during a negotiation.  Maybe hold the Finance Committee comments until AFTER the resolution of your RB?

[Nickster]

48 minutes ago, stitches said:

Kevin Bowen brought up something. When Darius Leonard was up for extension(same agent), he missed the first 10 days of training camp, then they extended him then he was back practicing 2 days later. This is most likely this agent's modus operandi. 

 

Yep.  That would be a reasonable hypothesis.  

10 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

His first 2 seasons he looked pretty good.   Similar ypc as CMC.  Just far fewer opportunities 

 

So you think JT would be as good as a receiver as CMC?

 

you and the mouse in your pocket would be the 2 then. 

[Nickster]

10 minutes ago, pkbrux said:

 

You can't even mention Taylor and CMC as receivers in the same breath. CMC could legitimately play slot receiver in the NFL, Taylor can catch screen passes.

 

I didn't bring up his lack of elite receiving or pass blocking to knock Taylor, just as a point to say that if I were going to pay a RB big money (and I wouldn't under any circumstances), he better be an elite receiver and pass blocker like pre-ACL tear Edge.

 

Someone was mentioning Faulk.  Faulk could have been a slot or Y in the league IMO.  CMC is like that. 

[w87r]

6 minutes ago, Nickster said:

Maybe JI didn't do it "on purpose" or to send "a message" but one could argue that it's a stunning lack of awareness during a negotiation.  Maybe hold the Finance Committee comments until AFTER the resolution of your RB?

According to Irsay, there were no negotiations going on, nothing to resolve.

[Nickster]

9 minutes ago, superrep1967 said:

A RB is a receiver, a blocker and of course runs the ball. A WR is a blocker and catches the ball if they get a ball. The RB does all three and at least one on every offensive play. So, to say RB is less valuable than as receiver to me is ridiculous especially one that is as good as Taylor is. So, I don't blame Taylor for his frustration in all this. I love Taylor and he would probably lead the league in rushing again.  They should sign him and make him happy and be done with it. I mean could you imagine how good the running game could be with Richardson and Taylor. I mean Ballard made it seem like it was Taylor's fault for our faliures last season and it absolutly wasn't  the o-line played terrible last season and Taylor was injured. I mean there were alot issues in many areas last season that caused our very bad play last season sign him and be done with this already. 

 

Well it might be ridiculous to you but it's not TO EVERY TEAM IN THE NFL. 

[superrep1967]

1 minute ago, Nickster said:

 

Well it might be ridiculous to you but it's not TO EVERY TEAM IN THE NFL. 

It just is in general. 

[Nickster]

Just now, w87r said:

According to Irsay, there were no negotiations going on, nothing to resolve.

 

Well if someone asks to renegotiate a contract and the owner refuses to negotiate. then I guess there were no negotiations from a technical standpoint.  When Reagan left Gorby at the table in Iceland, there were no "official negotiations" going on with missles and SDI, but there were frantic negotiation like things going on . 

[Nickster]

5 minutes ago, superrep1967 said:

It just is in general. 

 

Is that you God?  Thus Spake Zarathustra.

 

JK.  I don't think it's ridiculous.  I think it's reality, and I have predicted as much on this site that the league has been devaluing RBs for a few years and that it was going to continue to go that direction. 

[Nickster]

37 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I am not either regarding that narrative and he also has made some key blocks in his career. I remember 1 play he saved Wentz from getting creamed as JT took out a LB. If I find the clip, I will have to post that. JT is very capable of catching screen passes and breaking one big with his speed. Shane probably already pictures this.

 

Bestie. JT has never been a good consistent pass blocker and no one outside of Colts.com has ever said anything different about that. 

 

He likely will never be a very good pass protector either because his skill set does not include explosive lateral quickness which is what most great pass blockers possess.   JTs talent is straight at you one cut downhill. 

 

Hines was a great pass blocker for instance with the great lateral quickness.  

 

[superrep1967]

5 minutes ago, Nickster said:

 

Is that you God?  Thus Spake Zarathustra.

 

JK.  I don't think it's ridiculous.  I think it's reality, and I have predicted as much on this site that the league has been devaluing RBs for a few years and that it was going to continue to go that direction. 

You pay great players and Taylor is a great player if the best on the team at least one of them. Depending how Richardson pans out. 

[Nickster]

9 minutes ago, superrep1967 said:

You pay great players and Taylor is a great player if the best on the team at least one of them. Depending how Richardson pans out. 

 

I disagree you pay great players on its face.  

 

You don't pay great players for past performance.  You pay them according to what they likely will produce in the future and throughout their deals.  

 

Jerry Rice is the greatest receiver ever arguably.  He's a great player. Would you pay him if he came back at a premium price?  Of course not, he's 61.  

 

You don't pay great players above their positional value no matter how good they are at non premium positions. 

 

So I know that soundbite "You pay Great Players" sounds right, but it's not necessarily.  I thought, still think, and will think that the Shaq and Nelson contracts were bad for the Colts.  They were Great Players, but currently for the last 2 seasons neither has played like a great player. 

 

I predicted Shaq would struggle to stay on the field at his size.  I also thought and still think he wasn't a good enough pass defender to pay like that.  Same with Nelson.  Love the dude.  He's a guard.  Guards are not nearly as important in the passing game.  They're just not.  It's much easier to keep pass rushers off the QB through the A and B gaps than it is C and beyond.  It just is.  

 

We were set up like a team from the 1980s and predictably by some, me included, it's coming back to bite us in the Kuester. 

[Superman]

15 hours ago, Nickster said:

I think we threw money at Shaq, Q, and Smith IMO.

 

I forgot about Moore.    But we haven’t had much of this that I can recall.

 

I think my point is that we've been paying our best players, but our best players haven't been at positions for which you think we should be paying. If you replace Shaq, Q and Smith with a WR, LT, DE, you'd probably characterize those negotiations differently.

 

You're right that we haven't had much of this. But I think that's mostly a byproduct of having not drafted well for a long time. Once you start stacking up good drafts, you'll have some unhappy players because you can't pay everyone. 

 

Just thought of another example, by the way. Marlon Mack asked for a trade in 2021 because he was stuck on the bench behind JT. Kind of a unique situation since he was coming off the injury, but I imagine he was hoping to be paid before the 2020 season. Instead, we drafted his replacement.

[Superman]

58 minutes ago, Nickster said:

So you think JT would be as good as a receiver as CMC?

 

I think that would be a silly statement to make. I also think it's pretty clear that JT hasn't been given any real opportunities to produce as a pass catcher. I don't think he's limited in a way that would prevent him from being a good option out of the backfield. What's limited him has been the offense and the QB play.