Nelson at LT/JMV on LT (merge)

[EastStreet]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

You're leaning pretty heavily on this angle that he might have been considered at LT if not for other more suitable players being available (which is another way to say that he was beat out at LT by better players). 

 

I would just like to point out that there are plenty of serviceable tackles in college that get moved to guard in the NFL because of their traits and ability. Just because he was considered at LT in college doesn't mean he has the traits to play LT in the NFL. I don't think he has the needed traits. He's a great athlete and a great competitor so he probably wouldn't be awful. 

I'm probably more familiar with ND than I am with the Colts. Here's the timeline of events.

 

2012-13: Zack Martin Class Of 2009 (1st round pick All American and All Pro) is starting LT 

2013: Ronnie Stanley CO 2012 (1st round pick All American and All Pro is starting RT

2014-15: Ronnie Stanley slides to LT

2014 - Mike McGlinchey CO2013 (1st round pick, all American) is #2 at both LT and RT

2014 - Nelson CO2014 (1st round and All Pro) is #3 at both LT and RT (redshirted) so 4th T as a true frosh.

2015 - McGlinchey starts at RT 

2015 - Nelson plays in all 12 games starting a few at LG

2016 - McGlinchey slides to LT

2016-17: Nelson is staring left guard 

 

So in short...

1. ND had 2 pre-existing first round All American Ts during, Qs years at ND (Stanley, McGinchey)
2. ND had a history of sliding RTs to LT (Stanley and McGlinchey). It became an assembly line kinda
3. Q was #3 LT his freshman year (redshirted), moved to guard sophmore year so we could get him on the field.
4. ND was considered one of the best, if not THE best OL during that span

If you call a true sophomore, starting on one of the best lines in college football at LG, getting beat out for LT, OK... The truth is we had All American studs already in the process when he arrived, and he still got on the field early. He was clearly the best OL on the team his last two years, and clearly better than the LT who was another All American 1 rounder. How often is a G the second highest rated player in the draft (second only to Saquon Barkley). How often is G taken 6th overall (ever?). How often do scouts/teams ask a LG if he'd be willing to switch to LT at the combine?

 

The data points to timing.

 

[shasta519]

4 hours ago, Hoose said:

I’m glad you brought up Larry Allen. That’s a great example of a star player switching from G to T and not missing a beat. 

But it’s probably the only example...and he only did it for 19 straight games before moving back to G.

[Dark Superman]

I was more shocked seeing Hunt coming in at LG over Pinter.

[Dark Superman]

On 12/13/2020 at 11:05 PM, Scott Pennock said:

As a Notre Dame fan I remember that the oline coach went with the best oline, not necessarily the best lineman in each spot. He was a 5 Star recruit as a LT and is more of an athlete than Mike McGlinchey......but MM at LT and Q at LG was the best lineup.

 

Q would be an all pro no matter where he lined up at. So if push came to shove and they found another stud OG I would feel comfortable kicking him out to LT. 

Quick question. Where's McGlinchey playing for SF? For some reason I thought I saw him at RT. And where do you think he's a better fit at LT or RT?

[shasta519]

5 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Nelson has longer arms than the PFF's pre season #1 ranked OT Mitchell Schwartz, and a larger wingspan that their #2 ranked OT Ryan Ramczyk

 

Both of those players are RTs right? Braden Smith has 32 1/4 arms and does just fine there. Nelson would probably transition well to RT extremely well. 
 

But at LT...his arm length would be right under the very low end of the threshold of 34’’ that you would see at the position (someone like Bakhtiari). That doesn’t mean he couldn’t do it...but ideally...you have a LT that is 35” or more.

 

[shasta519]

7 minutes ago, TheLegend87 said:

Quick question. Where's McGlinchey playing for SF? For some reason I thought I saw him at RT. And where do you think he's a better fit at LT or RT?

He plays RT...Trent Williams is at LT...and Staley was before that.

[shasta519]

3 hours ago, EastStreet said:

I'm probably more familiar with ND than I am with the Colts. Here's the timeline of events.

 

2012-13: Zack Martin Class Of 2009 (1st round pick All American and All Pro) is starting LT 

2013: Ronnie Stanley CO 2012 (1st round pick All American and All Pro is starting RT

2014-15: Ronnie Stanley slides to LT

2014 - Mike McGlinchey CO2013 (1st round pick, all American) is #2 at both LT and RT

2014 - Nelson CO2014 (1st round and All Pro) is #3 at both LT and RT (redshirted) so 4th T as a true frosh.

2015 - McGlinchey starts at RT 

2015 - Nelson plays in all 12 games starting a few at LG

2016 - McGlinchey slides to LT

2016-17: Nelson is staring left guard 

 

So in short...

1. ND had 2 pre-existing first round All American Ts during, Qs years at ND (Stanley, McGinchey)
2. ND had a history of sliding RTs to LT (Stanley and McGlinchey). It became an assembly line kinda
3. Q was #3 LT his freshman year (redshirted), moved to guard sophmore year so we could get him on the field.
4. ND was considered one of the best, if not THE best OL during that span

If you call a true sophomore, starting on one of the best lines in college football at LG, getting beat out for LT, OK... The truth is we had All American studs already in the process when he arrived, and he still got on the field early. He was clearly the best OL on the team his last two years, and clearly better than the LT who was another All American 1 rounder. How often is a G the second highest rated player in the draft (second only to Saquon Barkley). How often is G taken 6th overall (ever?). How often do scouts/teams ask a LG if he'd be willing to switch to LT at the combine?

 

The data points to timing.

 

The timing tracks...but even if he could/would have played LT at ND...that doesn’t necessarily mean he would have been drafted to play LT. Just look at Martin before him (who actually played LT). Martin was smaller and had a bit shorter arms...but he dominated at the Senior Bowl against edge rushers...and I don’t think teams were really even considering LT an option for him.

 

Teams have their thresholds for positions...and they love to move OTs inside. And I think Nelson would have still been as sure as it gets at G too. 
 

As for teams asking those questions...I am sure part of it had to do with the investment it was going to take to get him (potentially a top 5 pick). 

 

 

[shasta519]

My thoughts on this....

 

One of Nelson’s greatest assets is his lateral movement and ability to pull and be a force blocking at the next level. 

 

Like Superman said...he’s a better run blocker than pass blocker. The run blocking is his calling card...and I think you would be trading that off (along with his versatility at G) to fill a hole at LT...where you could likely find a player with equal pass protection...which is the most important aspect of the position. Essentially, I think you can find a LT that can pass block as well as Nelson...I don’t think you can find a G that can run block like Nelson. 
 

Another concern I have...is actually holding penalties. Not because he’s going to get beat all the time...but because of how physical he is. Right now, he is tied for the league lead in holds...and that’s at G. It’s much easier to see holds that occur on the outside than the interior of the OL...things like hand placement and how a player is driven to the ground. Nelson is just such a physical player...and I don’t think refs will hesitate to call holds.

 

If this was a stopgap move to buy time to properly invest in the LT position...like sat waiting a year to use an early pick...or (more preferably) if they already had that guy who was developing and not ready to take over...I could see this move. But as a permanent move...I don’t think I am fan.

[Superman]

5 hours ago, shasta519 said:

As for teams asking those questions...I am sure part of it had to do with the investment it was going to take to get him (potentially a top 5 pick). 

 

Agreed, and I think that same calculus is a big part of the motivation right now. We're gonna have to pay LG elite money, and people don't like it. So 'let's see if he can play tackle.'

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

I don’t think they will make him the future LT. But it’s nice to know he can be the backup plan if it is ever needed. 

[NannyMcafee]

I honestly would be for Nelson being moved to LT. He is elite and would bring an elite aspect to the LT position with proper reps. 

 

Then you draft DE in round 1 and OG in round 2. And don't forget we have Costanzo for another year. This could really open things up for a trade up for a QB in 2022 seeing as how the Oline is pretty much set for the future. 

 

Its not like we are losing Nelson or something he's just getting moved. He would still be as nasty as ever. 

[EastStreet]

8 hours ago, shasta519 said:

 

Both of those players are RTs right? Braden Smith has 32 1/4 arms and does just fine there. Nelson would probably transition well to RT extremely well. 
 

But at LT...his arm length would be right under the very low end of the threshold of 34’’ that you would see at the position (someone like Bakhtiari). That doesn’t mean he couldn’t do it...but ideally...you have a LT that is 35” or more.

 

I love guys that check all the measurement boxes... that said, an inch isn't a big deal if you check every other box. And Nelson is a bit of unicorn, so an inch means a lot less. 

 

Like I said, would prefer to keep him at LG, but in know way would I be mad if they shifted him. 

[EastStreet]

7 hours ago, shasta519 said:

The timing tracks...but even if he could/would have played LT at ND...that doesn’t necessarily mean he would have been drafted to play LT. Just look at Martin before him (who actually played LT). Martin was smaller and had a bit shorter arms...but he dominated at the Senior Bowl against edge rushers...and I don’t think teams were really even considering LT an option for him.

 

Teams have their thresholds for positions...and they love to move OTs inside. And I think Nelson would have still been as sure as it gets at G too. 
 

As for teams asking those questions...I am sure part of it had to do with the investment it was going to take to get him (potentially a top 5 pick). 

Honestly I wouldn't take a G in the top 10, unless I knew he had potential flex potential. 

 

At the end of the day, it's not, "not debatable". IMO, Q would make at the very least, and above average LT. And that might be more valuable than having an elite LG. Good problem to have. I hope he stays at LG, and we get another above average young LT.

[shasta519]

2 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Agreed, and I think that same calculus is a big part of the motivation right now. We're gonna have to pay LG elite money, and people don't like it. So 'let's see if he can play tackle.'

 

Yep...it's sort of funny that people want to move him to LT to make him a better value for his huge contract...yet when a few people questioned the value of drafting a G at #6...they were met with a ton of resistance. 

[Superman]

48 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Q would make at the very least, and above average LT.

 

I disagree, but that's based on three pass pro reps from this Sunday. Someone else said he looked like a guard trying to play tackle, and I think that's spot on.

 

A fair evaluation would include more than three pass pro reps. 

[coming on strong]

On 12/13/2020 at 11:35 PM, Smoke317 said:

I think they take a long look at Big Q at LT next year.  As someone else said, much easier to find a starting guard than a starting left tackle. 

Not next year , ac is coming back 

[EastStreet]

38 minutes ago, Superman said:

I disagree, but that's based on three pass pro reps from this Sunday. Someone else said he looked like a guard trying to play tackle, and I think that's spot on.

 

A fair evaluation would include more than three pass pro reps. 

So neither of us can be fair, in terms of evaluation lol. 

 

I agree he looked like a G. Not sure why we wouldn't expect that right now.

[Moosejawcolt]

18 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Nelson has longer arms than the PFF's pre season #1 ranked OT Mitchell Schwartz, and a larger wingspan that their #2 ranked OT Ryan Ramczyk

Good to know

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Some good points from Kevin Bowen on JMV about financial aspects if they moved nelson over to LT. We will already be paying nelson a ton of money. Could help with the salary cap having him be future left tackle and a cheaper guard. 

[EastStreet]

11 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Some good points from Kevin Bowen on JMV about financial aspects if they moved nelson over to LT. We will already be paying nelson a ton of money. Could help with the salary cap having him be future left tackle and a cheaper guard. 

Nelson as a G will more than likely get top 5 LT money. 

 

He also makes the LT's job easier IMO, so it's not crazy to think we could get by with a solid, but non-elite LT.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

How much money does a first round LT make on a rookie deal?  Because after paying smith and Nelson we will need a LT on a rookie deal. That’s why it could make sense salary cap wise to have him take over after AC retires.  If your already paying nelson just move him over.  Could invest that money into a cheaper guard. Also wouldn’t have to use a high draft pick on a LT which opens that 1st rd pick up to a different position. CB, IWR. DE.

[EastStreet]

26 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

How much money does a first round LT make on a rookie deal?  Because after paying smith and Nelson we will need a LT on a rookie deal. That’s why it could make sense salary cap wise to have him take over after AC retires.  If your already paying nelson just move him over.  Could invest that money into a cheaper guard. Also wouldn’t have to use a high draft pick on a LT which opens that 1st rd pick up to a different position. CB, IWR. DE.

https://www.republicworld.com/sports-news/other-sports/nfl-draft-picks-salaries-and-how-much-1st-round-picks-will-earn.html

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

28 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

https://www.republicworld.com/sports-news/other-sports/nfl-draft-picks-salaries-and-how-much-1st-round-picks-will-earn.html

So in reality it wouldn’t save more then a few million dollars if that. At least for the first four years.

[EastStreet]

2 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

So in reality it wouldn’t save more then a few million dollars if that. At least for the first four years.

Just depends on who you plug in at LG or LT, if you draft and where, or what FA you bring in. 

 

It all costs, a good draft pick just costs more later.

[Scott Pennock]

20 hours ago, TheLegend87 said:

Quick question. Where's McGlinchey playing for SF? For some reason I thought I saw him at RT. And where do you think he's a better fit at LT or RT?

He's at RT. He can play both......

 

Trent Williams is currently the LT though.

 

With that in mind I ALWAYS felt the he was the inferior player to Nelson, however, the staff at Notre Dame put the 5 best lineman out there. 

[Dark Superman]

4 minutes ago, Scott Pennock said:

He's at RT. He can play both......

 

Trent Williams is currently the LT though.

 

With that in mind I ALWAYS felt the he was the inferior player to Nelson, however, the staff at Notre Dame put the 5 best lineman out there. 

Thanks for clearing that up. I was certain the last time I watched a 49ers game, Mike McGlinchey was playing RT and wearing the number 69. I guess I expected him to be their starting LT when he was drafted because that's where I remember him playing alongside Nelson at ND.

[WarGhost21]

Quenton Nelson is a beast.

 

This we all know.

 

Had he been a Left Tackle prospect in the NFL, with his talent, you could argue that he’d be the best prospect at the position since Joe Thomas in 2007.

 

However, we do not know what he would be as a Left Tackle prospect because he plays Left Guard.

 

From what we saw in his few snaps at the position, he looked good, but there is no way to definitively say that he will be a future star outside.

 

Can he do it? Probably.

 

Will he do it? Probably not.

 

With Aaron Donald and Chris Jones, to name a few, dominating inside, it’s very unlikely that he does make a move outside.