The Nelson Pull Fake

[Lucky Colts Fan]

Ok, so I don't know how to post just one play, so the best I can do is tell you that I'm talking about the 4th play in this highlight video:

 

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000949824/Every-Andrew-Luck-throw-Preseason-Week-2

 

You see Nelson pull like it's a run, which draws two defenders up toward him, but then he stops and Luck hits Doyle in the zone the defenders just vacated.  Andrew sold the play-action, but apparently Nelson is so well-known for how good he is as a pulling guard that the coaches can have him pull-fake to trick multiple defenders.

 

It was kinda brilliant to show that in the preseason.  Maybe now defenders will have to think twice when they see Big Bad Q pull.  Call that play the BBQ Pulled Pork Sammich.

[csmopar]

7 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

Ok, so I don't know how to post just one play, so the best I can do is tell you that I'm talking about the 4th play in this highlight video:

 

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000949824/Every-Andrew-Luck-throw-Preseason-Week-2

 

You see Nelson pull like it's a run, which draws two defenders up toward him, but then he stops and Luck hits Doyle in the zone the defenders just vacated.  Andrew sold the play-action, but apparently Nelson is so well-known for how good he is as a pulling guard that the coaches can have him pull-fake to trick multiple defenders.

 

It was kinda brilliant to show that in the preseason.  Maybe now defenders will have to think twice when they see Big Bad Q pull.  Call that play the BBQ Pulled Pork Sammich.

he looked really good against the 1s last night in my opinion. a couple mistakes but thats to be expected. We need a good, healthy LT and i think he'll really shine.

[ColtStrong2013]

30 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

Ok, so I don't know how to post just one play, so the best I can do is tell you that I'm talking about the 4th play in this highlight video:

 

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000949824/Every-Andrew-Luck-throw-Preseason-Week-2

 

You see Nelson pull like it's a run, which draws two defenders up toward him, but then he stops and Luck hits Doyle in the zone the defenders just vacated.  Andrew sold the play-action, but apparently Nelson is so well-known for how good he is as a pulling guard that the coaches can have him pull-fake to trick multiple defenders.

 

It was kinda brilliant to show that in the preseason.  Maybe now defenders will have to think twice when they see Big Bad Q pull.  Call that play the BBQ Pulled Pork Sammich.

That play and its many variations that Reich will install over time, will be the bread and butter of this offense so long as the running game can be established. You have to honor the pulling ability of Q Nelson, and hopefully the speed of Mack / vision of Wilkins, but also honor the playaction pop to Doyle. Hard to commit as a defender. 

[ColtsBlueFL]

1 hour ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

You see Nelson pull like it's a run, which draws two defenders up toward him, but then he stops and Luck hits Doyle in the zone the defenders just vacated.  Andrew sold the play-action ... 

 

Call that play the BBQ Pulled Pork Sammich.

 

On ‘toast’ ...

[Coffeedrinker]

Am I missing something here?  That is a pretty standard type of oline scheme when you play a team where the LBers are keying on the guards. 

 

The Colts haven't used it much because they have not had a guard that was good enough at pulling(Mewhort had a good many traits at guard but pulling was not one of them) to get over and take the backside rusher.

[compuls1v3]

3 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Am I missing something here?  That is a pretty standard type of oline scheme when you play a team where the LBers are keying on the guards. 

 

The Colts haven't used it much because they have not had a guard that was good enough at pulling(Mewhort had a good many traits at guard but pulling was not one of them) to get over and take the backside rusher.

 

Like you said, we haven't used it much, so it was cool to see *us* doing it.  By the way, was it just me or did we not run to the left side that much when during the first 2 quarters (if at all)?

[Coffeedrinker]

25 minutes ago, compuls1v3 said:

 

Like you said, we haven't used it much, so it was cool to see *us* doing it.  By the way, was it just me or did we not run to the left side that much when during the first 2 quarters (if at all)?

The only thing I have seen of the first half are the plays posted in this thread.

 

Sounds like a good observation though.  And the NFL gamebook would seem to support what your eyes saw.  They have every run in the first half listed as "up the middle" (which means A gap on either side) Right guard or Right tackle.

[Rally5]

5 hours ago, ColtStrong2013 said:

That play and its many variations that Reich will install over time, will be the bread and butter of this offense so long as the running game can be established. You have to honor the pulling ability of Q Nelson, and hopefully the speed of Mack / vision of Wilkins, but also honor the playaction pop to Doyle. Hard to commit as a defender. 

To pile on the real genius comes in the Reich offense when you do this in a two TE set and LB's have to play the run and cover both Doyle and Ebron.  If done right, no can defend!

[crazycolt1]

1 hour ago, Rally5 said:

To pile on the real genius comes in the Reich offense when you do this in a two TE set and LB's have to play the run and cover both Doyle and Ebron.  If done right, no can defend!

Well Doyle and Ebron need to learn to block better than what I have seen. Hopefully it will improve over time.

[chad72]

We need crossing WRs involved more in freeing up RBs and TEs, look at this Andy Reid play design, brilliant, IMO:

 

 

[ColtsBlueFL]

I can't see it...  

[ColtStrong2013]

3 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

Well Doyle and Ebron need to learn to block better than what I have seen. Hopefully it will improve over time.

Agreed. Doyle struggled, but the tackles completely ignoring Suggs and company coming off the edge after Doyle chipped them didnt help any. 

[ColtStrong2013]

9 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Am I missing something here?  That is a pretty standard type of oline scheme when you play a team where the LBers are keying on the guards. 

 

The Colts haven't used it much because they have not had a guard that was good enough at pulling(Mewhort had a good many traits at guard but pulling was not one of them) to get over and take the backside rusher.

Most nfl linebackers key on guard play. It'a a fundamental aspect of reading an offense at the position, and has been for a long time. 

 

You aren't missing anything. It's just a solid bread and butter offensive strategy that this team hasn't had in a long time. It's not what you are missing, it's what we fans have been missing for the last several years... 

[Coffeedrinker]

11 hours ago, ColtStrong2013 said:

Most nfl linebackers key on guard play. It'a a fundamental aspect of reading an offense at the position, and has been for a long time. 

 

You aren't missing anything. It's just a solid bread and butter offensive strategy that this team hasn't had in a long time. It's not what you are missing, it's what we fans have been missing for the last several years... 

The first sentence is not necessarily true in the NFL... at the high school level yes but not in the NFL.  With a single gap control scheme the LBers don't key on the guards.  A 4-3 D going against a zone blocking scheme won't key on the guards.

 

As far as what I missing, I must have misread the original post, it just seemed to me the OP was talking about this as if were some brilliant offensive strategy, but like you said it's (and why I was wondering what I was missing) is a pretty common line call.

[Rackeen305]

23 hours ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

Ok, so I don't know how to post just one play, so the best I can do is tell you that I'm talking about the 4th play in this highlight video:

 

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000949824/Every-Andrew-Luck-throw-Preseason-Week-2

 

You see Nelson pull like it's a run, which draws two defenders up toward him, but then he stops and Luck hits Doyle in the zone the defenders just vacated.  Andrew sold the play-action, but apparently Nelson is so well-known for how good he is as a pulling guard that the coaches can have him pull-fake to trick multiple defenders.

 

It was kinda brilliant to show that in the preseason.  Maybe now defenders will have to think twice when they see Big Bad Q pull.  Call that play the BBQ Pulled Pork Sammich.

Plays like this, and the screen pass from the Seattle game has me confused as to how some people can say that the play calling is Vanilla. Well, it is the pre-season and the only coaching tape that other coaches can draw schemes off of will be the pre-season games, since Reich doesnt have real game film to study off of. So, like Poker, you really dont want to show your hand unnecessarily when the game doesn't matter.

 

The underlining truth about the team thus far is, Many star/big role players have not played including LT Castonzo, rookie DE Turray, nor DE Lewis (just to name a few). And the veterans who were counted on to make plays (WR Grant) has not lived up to expectation (Once again, Thus far).

 

I truly believe that the WR Cain injury was a huge setback for this team and his absence will be larger than at first glance.

 

[Lucky Colts Fan]

On 8/21/2018 at 11:57 AM, Coffeedrinker said:

Am I missing something here?  That is a pretty standard type of oline scheme when you play a team where the LBers are keying on the guards. 

 

The Colts haven't used it much because they have not had a guard that was good enough at pulling(Mewhort had a good many traits at guard but pulling was not one of them) to get over and take the backside rusher.

 

3 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

The first sentence is not necessarily true in the NFL... at the high school level yes but not in the NFL.  With a single gap control scheme the LBers don't key on the guards.  A 4-3 D going against a zone blocking scheme won't key on the guards.

 

As far as what I missing, I must have misread the original post, it just seemed to me the OP was talking about this as if were some brilliant offensive strategy, but like you said it's (and why I was wondering what I was missing) is a pretty common line call.

 

This play just really caught my eye when I was watching the game because our best OLineman pulls, gets a head of steam, and then just stops with nobody to block.    Up until that play, anytime I saw #56 pull, it was a given that the RB would be following him.

 

But when I saw how well the play worked, I thought it was really smart to put that play on film for the other 31 teams.  If just one defender hesitates when Nelson pulls in the future because they don't know if it's a run or play-action pass, that could spring our RB for a big gain at a critical time.

 

Maybe this wasn't very eye-opening for someone with a lot of football experience (like a coach), but for an average fan like me, it was pretty neat.

 

[Lucky Colts Fan]

3 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

As far as what I missing, I must have misread the original post, it just seemed to me the OP was talking about this as if were some brilliant offensive strategy, but like you said it's (and why I was wondering what I was missing) is a pretty common line call.

 

It may even be as simple as the Belichick strategy to call certain plays just to mess up the analytics for other teams.

 

Now the analytics will show that we DON'T always run the ball every time #56 pulls, so teams won't be able to key on that.

 

[Rally5]

18 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

Well Doyle and Ebron need to learn to block better than what I have seen. Hopefully it will improve over time.

That's not the point of this topic but ok.  The point here is having two pass-catching tight ends, combined with a run game makes for some great match-up opportunities in the passing game.  This is why they went hard after Ebron.  If we have two pass catching TE's, Pass catching athletic RB's and a couple Wide out's, that's a real miss match issue for linebackers whether it's on the edge or up the seam, I think we're going to like Frank's offense.

[crazycolt1]

3 hours ago, Rally5 said:

That's not the point of this topic but ok.  The point here is having two pass-catching tight ends, combined with a run game makes for some great match-up opportunities in the passing game.  This is why they went hard after Ebron.  If we have two pass catching TE's, Pass catching athletic RB's and a couple Wide out's, that's a real miss match issue for linebackers whether it's on the edge or up the seam, I think we're going to like Frank's offense.

Having Nelson pull fake was the topic.

To expect the run game to work well out of the two TE sets yes Doyle and Ebron do have to block.

Even if it's a pass play the two TEs will either have to come off a block or at least chip block to sell the play.

 

[ColtStrong2013]

11 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

The first sentence is not necessarily true in the NFL... at the high school level yes but not in the NFL.  With a single gap control scheme the LBers don't key on the guards.  A 4-3 D going against a zone blocking scheme won't key on the guards.

 

As far as what I missing, I must have misread the original post, it just seemed to me the OP was talking about this as if were some brilliant offensive strategy, but like you said it's (and why I was wondering what I was missing) is a pretty common line call.

Says who? Triangle reads are fundamental at the linebacker position that is taught at and from all levels. Reading a guard, a back and the snap simultaneously is the only way to not get bit on a play. Most Mike backers are reading the guard and the snap and then following the runningback, regardless of scheme. 

[ColtStrong2013]

7 hours ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

It may even be as simple as the Belichick strategy to call certain plays just to mess up the analytics for other teams.

 

Now the analytics will show that we DON'T always run the ball every time #56 pulls, so teams won't be able to key on that.

 

But they still will... because that's a natural reaction for a linebacker. You see what appears to be a down block and a pulling guard, and you are going to step up in the gap to make a play. On that particular play the linebacker stepped up and recovered pretty well and nearly made a play on the ball. That's his job. It's tough to defend against. 

[Coffeedrinker]

12 hours ago, ColtStrong2013 said:

Says who? Triangle reads are fundamental at the linebacker position that is taught at and from all levels. Reading a guard, a back and the snap simultaneously is the only way to not get bit on a play. Most Mike backers are reading the guard and the snap and then following the runningback, regardless of scheme. 

Ok, if you say so.

[Coffeedrinker]

20 hours ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

It may even be as simple as the Belichick strategy to call certain plays just to mess up the analytics for other teams.

 

Now the analytics will show that we DON'T always run the ball every time #56 pulls, so teams won't be able to key on that.

 

Sorry, I just misunderstood the intent of the original post. 

 

I do agree it was good to see and I hope we see more.  One of the reasons the stretch play and play action pass off the stretch play used to work so well for the Colts is because it looked exactly the same all the way to the point where Manning pulled the ball out of James' stomach.

 

Setting that up now, pull #56 run behind him, a few times and then do the PAP from that same call.  It will be open a lot.

[Peterk2011]

22 hours ago, Rackeen305 said:

Plays like this, and the screen pass from the Seattle game has me confused as to how some people can say that the play calling is Vanilla. Well, it is the pre-season and the only coaching tape that other coaches can draw schemes off of will be the pre-season games, since Reich doesnt have real game film to study off of. So, like Poker, you really dont want to show your hand unnecessarily when the game doesn't matter.

 

 

"Vanilla" = teams dont game plan for the opponent, and don't game time adjust. They of course draw plays for the game - all kinds of plays, though they barely show their hand of course -, and see how the players execute them. Individually, and as a unit.

[Rackeen305]

8 minutes ago, Peterk2011 said:

 

"Vanilla" = teams dont game plan for the opponent, and don't game time adjust. They of course draw plays for the game - all kinds of plays, though they barely show their hand of course -, and see how the players execute them. Individually, and as a unit.

 

To be completely honest. I think your definition of Vanilla is applicable to you. Because I think football minds understand that most teams do not game plan for the first two preseason games. So im not sure what you are getting at.

 

Then you say "of course draw plays for the game - all kinds of plays, though they barely show their hand of course" That is a contradiction to your first statement of teams dont game plan for the opponent.

 

I stated: Plays like this, and the screen pass from the Seattle game has me confused as to how some people can say that the play calling is Vanilla. Well, it is the pre-season and the only coaching tape that other coaches can draw schemes off of will be the pre-season games, since Reich doesnt have real game film to study off of.

 

Im not finding what you are disagreeing with, since you practically came behind me to state what I said earlier.

[lollygagger8]

On 8/21/2018 at 11:57 AM, Coffeedrinker said:

Am I missing something here?  That is a pretty standard type of oline scheme when you play a team where the LBers are keying on the guards. 

 

The Colts haven't used it much because they have not had a guard that was good enough at pulling(Mewhort had a good many traits at guard but pulling was not one of them) to get over and take the backside rusher.

 

it's new to the Colts because the previous regime never used it lol 

[Lucky Colts Fan]

59 minutes ago, Rackeen305 said:

To be completely honest. I think your definition of Vanilla is applicable to you. Because I think football minds understand that most teams do not game plan for the first two preseason games. So im not sure what you are getting at.

 

Then you say "of course draw plays for the game - all kinds of plays, though they barely show their hand of course" That is a contradiction to your first statement of teams dont game plan for the opponent.

 

I stated: Plays like this, and the screen pass from the Seattle game has me confused as to how some people can say that the play calling is Vanilla. Well, it is the pre-season and the only coaching tape that other coaches can draw schemes off of will be the pre-season games, since Reich doesnt have real game film to study off of.

 

Im not finding what you are disagreeing with, since you practically came behind me to state what I said earlier.

 

Forget "Vanilla".  That's too vanilla of a term for what coaches are really doing during the preseason...

 

 

They're just being stingy with the play-calling.

 

Which makes it kind of exciting to think that THIS is playing it close-to-the-vest for Reich.  I can't wait to see what he pulls out of his bag-o-tricks in Week 17 and the playoffs.

[Peterk2011]

On 8/23/2018 at 3:44 PM, Rackeen305 said:

 

To be completely honest. I think your definition of Vanilla is applicable to you. Because I think football minds understand that most teams do not game plan for the first two preseason games. So im not sure what you are getting at.

 

Then you say "of course draw plays for the game - all kinds of plays, though they barely show their hand of course" That is a contradiction to your first statement of teams dont game plan for the opponent.

 

I stated: Plays like this, and the screen pass from the Seattle game has me confused as to how some people can say that the play calling is Vanilla. Well, it is the pre-season and the only coaching tape that other coaches can draw schemes off of will be the pre-season games, since Reich doesnt have real game film to study off of.

 

I merely tried to give you a more "relaxed" definition of "vanilla", becaue it seemed you take it too strictly.

 

And no, it is not a contradiction that teams draw plays for the game, and don't game plan for the opponent at the same time. Because the purpose of drawing plays is to practice certain game situations, see how players execute certain tasks, where they stand up, how they separate on certain route combinations, how they block for their fellow receivers, how they respond to changing calls, etc. Game planning for the opponent is focusing on exploiting the opponent's weaknesses and hiding their own, etc.  Basically, and ultimately, the purpose of game planning is to WIN the game. Teams don't do that in preseason.