The First Down Measuremnt In The Dallas-Raiders Game

[King Colt]

If you did not see it you will hear about it tomorrow. Late in the game Dallas ran a play that was measured to determine whether the ball placement was a first down. It was very close so one official got out a piece of paper folded in half and stuck it near the ball and marker pole. If this piece of paper went in between the two it was not a first down if it did not the it was a first down and it was ruled a first down or the Cowboys. So immediately the question was raised, "why did the official use the paper folded making it twice a thick?" The second issue is the marker poles must be 90 degrees to the surface. If you pull the marker pole away from the ball the paper will go through and if it is leaned toward the ball the paper will not go through. Chris Collingsworth stated immediately this is a first in the NFL and because it can eliminate a team from the playoffs this method is no good. Sound trivial? The Raiders did not think so. So how does the NFL guarantee a 90 degree perpendicular marker pole for such a close call? It can't be done with the equipment they currently use. One more issue for the off season to deal with.

[buffalo34]

So the two most evil organizations in the NFL were propped up by the officials today. Seems legit.

[Jules]

I fell asleep before and didn't watch this game but it was a MEH game. And I didn't even believe what "King Colt" was saying  was true. But......it is.

 

I looked this up and well, this actually did happen.

 

https://screengrabber.deadspin.com/13-billion-industry-uses-folded-up-piece-of-paper-to-d-1821375977

 

 

Oh my Goodness.........

 

[oldunclemark]

The ref has to be told...you simply don't do that.

..who said the 'card' is straight.?  What card was it?  American Express?  His kids report card?

 

You have to go by the 'sticks' as the FINAL judgement  ...if you don't......what are they for...

[Jules]

• Maybe it was a grocery list even. It said "Milk, butter, eggs, cheerios" on it and they used it to decide SNF.

[Narcosys]

You're literally in a tizzy over .2mm vs .1mm?

 

If it's that close, jeez, give it em. There's bigger problems with the nfl than the thickness of paper used to determine a first down.

 

I don't see a problem with it. 

[WoolMagnet]

This is the first time i've seen this is over 30 years of watching football.  It will probably be another 30 before we see it again.

marking the ball is a "rough estimate" anyway.

the measurement really isnt the issue, the marking of the ball is.

thete is technology thatcould eleviate this.  We've seen it demonstrated in baseball.  But this could make the game sterile.  Human error is a part of the game untill they add gps or sensors to the ball and field.

[ricker182]

This was actually perfectly fine with me. The ref tried to make sure he was correct on a call that was way too close to determine conclusively.  

  

He could have just ruled it a first down and no one would have cared.  

  

If I was a fan of either team I would have been perfectly fine with what he did. That was the closest measurement I've ever seen and there is always human error when running the chains out there to measure.  

  

The NFL better hope this doesn't happen in a game decider Super Bowl or playoff game though. 

[dgambill]

I don't like the measurement method....he had a smirk on his face and I think he was trying to be funny. It should be easy honestly....get down on your knees and if the ball impedes the view of the stick then it crossed it....if there is daylight it didn't....I think he was doing this for dramatic effect. All this stuff smh...just make a call and stick with it....tired of all this indecisiveness in the league and second guessing.....let the game move on.

[Lucky Colts Fan]

8 hours ago, King Colt said:

Sound trivial? The Raiders did not think so.

 

 

I guess the Raiders D should have stopped the ball-carrier before they got that close to a 1st down...  and I'd say the same thing about the Colts D if we were in a similar situation.

 

It was kinda funny and entertaining, but still trivial.

 

[DougDew]

The poles need to be able to collapse quickly on the sidelines to avoid injury. 

 

Somebody on TV suggested getting rid of the chains all together and us GPS to place the ball.  Yeah right.  GPS couldn't measure within 2 pieces of paper distance.  Not much can, if the device has to be mobile.

[King Colt]

Does anyone grasp what happened? The official sticks this folded index card in between the ball and the marker pole. That means it is not a first down! Then he says the card, (calibrated by The National Bureau of Standards ;) ) he used was only to confirm what he already saw. Then why use it if he knew? The irony of his explanation is the card by entering in between the ball and the pole verified it was not a first down.

[King Colt]

8 minutes ago, DougDew said:

The poles need to be able to collapse quickly on the sidelines to avoid injury. 

 

Somebody on TV suggested getting rid of the chains all together and us GPS to place the ball.  Yeah right.  GPS couldn't measure within 2 pieces of paper distance.  Not much can, if the device has to be mobile.

Lasers are used all over the world in linear measurements. I just had my entire home measured for carpet all done with a hand held laser no bigger than a computer mouse. They are used ever day in my offshore production construction work. They can layout a birds next or a spider web is programmed to do so. The current year is 2017 and someone should tell the NFL.

[DougDew]

2 hours ago, King Colt said:

Lasers are used all over the world in linear measurements. I just had my entire home measured for carpet all done with a hand held laser no bigger than a computer mouse. They are used ever day in my offshore production construction work. They can layout a birds next or a spider web is programmed to do so. The current year is 2017 and someone should tell the NFL.

OK.  But they're probably not controlled by GPS satellite, which was the point of the comment.

[King Colt]

3 hours ago, DougDew said:

OK.  But they're probably not controlled by GPS satellite, which was the point of the comment.

Laser tools are a dime-a-dozen at every hardware store was my point. No need for anything other than those tools. I use lasers to mount wall shelves.

By the way, a billion dollar industry using 1930s technology-two sticks and a rope. Bring back those leather hats for brain protection with no face guards. "Got any beer?'

[dgambill]

1 hour ago, King Colt said:

Laser tools are a dime-a-dozen at every hardware store was my point. No need for anything other than those tools. I use lasers to mount wall shelves.

By the way, a billion dollar industry using 1930s technology-two sticks and a rope. Bring back those leather hats for brain protection with no face guards. "Got any beer?'

I'll give you that one....the laser thing makes sense. I also think a chip in the ball would make sense too for crossing the goal line...they could even use it to track the ball on replays etc. I do think they could better mark distances etc. That said the paper touched the ball when he was sticking the paper between the ball and the stick...that is why he marked first down. I think it was juvenile as well...he had a silly smirk on his face the whole time....but it did verify the ball exceeded the stick because the paper touched it as he was sliding it between.

[crazycolt1]

1 hour ago, King Colt said:

Laser tools are a dime-a-dozen at every hardware store was my point. No need for anything other than those tools. I use lasers to mount wall shelves.

By the way, a billion dollar industry using 1930s technology-two sticks and a rope. Bring back those leather hats for brain protection with no face guards. "Got any beer?'

If the NFL brought back the leather helmets with no face guard it would cut way down brain injuries. The players wouldn't lead with their head and not use their helmets as a ram.

[jameszeigler834]

17 hours ago, buffalo34 said:

So the two most evil organizations in the NFL were propped up by the officials today. Seems legit.

I thought both calls were terrible.

[coltsva]

10 hours ago, King Colt said:

Does anyone grasp what happened? The official sticks this folded index card in between the ball and the marker pole. That means it is not a first down! Then he says the card, (calibrated by The National Bureau of Standards ;) ) he used was only to confirm what he already saw. Then why use it if he knew? The irony of his explanation is the card by entering in between the ball and the pole verified it was not a first down.

I believe he put the paper against the stick, and then when he moved the paper down the stick it hit the end of the ball, thus the first down call. 

[oldunclemark]

4 hours ago, coltsva said:

I believe he put the paper against the stick, and then when he moved the paper down the stick it hit the end of the ball, thus the first down call. 

I think that's wrong on the face of it, CVA;

As he moved the card down the ball did NOT move, proving Dallas was short and the ball should have gone over.

and above and beyond that, he cannot fabricate a new measuring apparatus....

He cant, in effect,  make up the rules..

 

..and he certainly did

[coltsva]

The referee said exactly what I saw on a replay yesterday: 

 

"After the game, Steratore told a pool reporter that he didn’t use the card, which he said touched the ball, to make his decision.

“That was already finished,” Steratore said. “The ball was touching the pole. I put the card in there and as soon as it touched, it was nothing more than a reaffirmation." 

 

As far as what can and can't be done by an official that may not be covered in the rules, I have no idea. 

 

[King Colt]

If you have a slot, say one quarter inch wide and you put the folded index card in the slot and it touches both side it is not a first down. Think about this, the folded card was inserted with the edges flaring out instead of inserting the folded edge in first. When you fold something does it not naturally expand as if it is trying to return to its former shape? The NFL has stated what was done was unusual but not against the rules. What if his was done in the Super Bowl? To decide a game on a thing like this is absurd and it is sand lot football. Granted it did not occur on the final play but since it is not against the rules it could happen. A better method needs to be explored.