The Cap

[UndecidedFrog]

so we have a lot of money go after fa then

After the revision above, not so much as before.

$15.5MM in cap space can be allocated many different ways.

Consider the recent resigning of Mathis. 4 year, $36MM, with $15MM upfront.

The 2012 cap hit for that deal is only $5.75MM

If you want to extrapolate, you can consider that you can sign about 2.7 more FAs to similar contracts as Mathis received.

On the other hand, you can also assume that Freeney is cut, which would increase that $15.5MM figure to $29.5MM.

[UndecidedFrog]

if the colts didn't pay manning the 28 mil, and then he resigned with a different contract. Would their have been cap problems? I'm not asking if you think he would or wouldn't have done that.

He would have to resign for a contract that hit the 2012 cap at no more than $6.6MM, otherwise it would do more damage to the cap than keeping the old contract.

Releasing = $10.4MM hit.

Keeping old contract = $17MM hit

difference = $6.6MM.

[Pombi]

How many seasons has Gonzalez been with us? And the OP and other posters still butcher his name. Guess there is no need to learn it now...

[wabbwubb]

Hey guys so what do you think about us rebuilding in this new rookie salary era. I remember thinking to myself when they agreed to this new setup that WOW it would be a good time be bad getting top 10 talent and not paying crazy money. Luck will only take about 6% of our total salary next year. That is really nice might be able to rebuild fast. When we signed Peyton in 98 he was about 18-20% of our salary Cap his rookie year. In a Salary Cap league i can see this being a big advantage that we will have 4-6 years of cheap good top 10 talent. I think we will have 3 top 10 picks counting this year then we can sign free agents at will and not over pay. So to me it will be interesting since we can make the first mold in this new rookie salary league its a much bigger advantage to be bad now than it was 4 years ago.

[likm]

This thread is your baby, but I think it would be less confusing for some that don't understand it fully if you would say:

x players under contract =

x players with dead cap space =

Luck =x

Rookies= x

Total

Cap

Available

just a suggestion so you won't be hit with the same question over and over...

Yes the frog is being very patient with the posters asking the same crap over and over.........oh and over again.

Thanks frog this is a great thread. Keep up the good work.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Hey guys so what do you think about us rebuilding in this new rookie salary era. I remember thinking to myself when they agreed to this new setup that WOW it would be a good time be bad getting top 10 talent and not paying crazy money. Luck will only take about 6% of our total salary next year. That is really nice might be able to rebuild fast. When we signed Peyton in 98 he was about 18-20% of our salary Cap his rookie year. In a Salary Cap league i can see this being a big advantage that we will have 4-6 years of cheap good top 10 talent. I think we will have 3 top 10 picks counting this year then we can sign free agents at will and not over pay. So to me it will be interesting since we can make the first mold in this new rookie salary league its a much bigger advantage to be bad now than it was 4 years ago.

Manning only exceeded 18% of the cap one.

2003.

[wabbwubb]

Manning only exceeded 18% of the cap one.

2003.

Might be wrong but when i google mannings rookie contact it says he signed a 6 year 48 million deal with 11.6 million signing bonus. I don not know how that was distributed at all, but its an average of 9.9 million towards the cap each year. The Salary cap was set at 52.38 in 98 so it is roughly 18.9% but like i said i dont really know what he made his first year i am just taking the average. Just really excited that Luck and the other top picks we get in the future will cost so much less than before . It will be the first model of its kind on how to build a team in this new era right?

[FireJimCaldwell]

Might be wrong but when i google mannings rookie contact it says he signed a 6 year 48 million deal with 11.6 million signing bonus. I don not know how that was distributed at all, but its an average of 9.9 million towards the cap each year. The Salary cap was set at 52.38 in 98 so it is roughly 18.9% but like i said i dont really know what he made his first year i am just taking the average. Just really excited that Luck and the other top picks we get in the future will cost so much less than before . It will be the first model of its kind on how to build a team in this new era right?

The 11.6 would be divided across the 6 years @ 1.93 million a year.

He had staggered base salaries:

1998 144000.00 1999 1430000.00 2000 2666000.00 2001 4452000.00 2002 6298000.00 2003 9824000.00

His 1998 Cap hit would be been around 3.4 million or 6.4% of the cap.

[wabbwubb]

Gotcha i was thinking it was 48 million base salary and 11.6 signing bonus totaling 59.6 split among 6 years

[FireJimCaldwell]

Gotcha i was thinking it was 48 million base salary and 11.6 signing bonus totaling 59.6 split among 6 years

It was included.

Sorry about the horrible formatting above, I didn't notice it until I couldn't edit it.

[Gavin]

Frog Im tryin to do this but I learn through one step at a time

1)

2)

and so on

[UndecidedFrog]

Frog Im tryin to do this but I learn through one step at a time

1)

2)

and so on

No problem.

Ask any question, and I shall try to explain it as best I can one step at a time.

[Gavin]

can ya break it down step by step

1

2

3

4

blah blah

[UndecidedFrog]

can ya break it down step by step

1

2

3

4

blah blah

What specifically would you like me to break down?

[Gavin]

Frog what do I start by adding up or subtracting do I start with the cap we have now or the cap relief of the players that were released, Im talking about the formula itself you used broken down in a step by step method, gettin all wordy Im like HOLY ****

[UndecidedFrog]

Frog what do I start by adding up or subtracting do I start with the cap we have now or the cap relief of the players that were released, Im talking about the formula itself you used broken down in a step by step method, gettin all wordy Im like HOLY ****

1) Get a list of all the contracted players on your roster for this year, and the last few years.

2) Get the details of each of their contracts that show base salaries for each of their contracted years, as well as signing bonuses, and miscl. bonuses that under cap accounting rules can be pro-rated across their contracted years.

3) Set up an Excel spreadsheet that lists all the players down the left column, and the calendar years across the top row.

4) For each player, have 4 rows underneath, delineating base salary; signing bonus proration, miscl. bonus proration that all together total to total cap hit.

5) At the bottom of each year, add up the total cap hit for each player to arrive at total team cap hit

6) Also at the bottom of each year, add up the total number of contracted players above

7) Subtract the number of contracted players from 53 to get the number of players you need to add to make up the roster

8) Add in your expected draft cap hits. such as Luck/RG3 at an assumed 5% above Cam Newton's cap hit structure

9) Assign the remainder of your roster to league minimum base salary

10) Arrive at your total team cap hit number

11) Take the league assign total team cap number for each year. In 2012, it will be $120.6MM

12) Take the difference and you will know approximately how much you are under or over the cap.

[Gavin]

ah now this I understand and find much easier to do, thank you Frog

[UndecidedFrog]

How many seasons has Gonzalez been with us? And the OP and other posters still butcher his name. Guess there is no need to learn it now...

Anthony Gonzalez has been with the Colts his entire 5 year NFL career thus far.

He was the first round draft pick (32) in 2007.

[Pombi]

Anthony Gonzalez has been with the Colts his entire 5 year NFL career thus far.

He was the first round draft pick (32) in 2007.

You realize that was rhetorical right?

[FireJimCaldwell]

ah now this I understand and find much easier to do, thank you Frog

Be sure to carry the 2, and square the 3rd players salary on your ledger. Unwritten cap rule.

[Gavin]

what did you come out with so I have an idea if Im way off

[UndecidedFrog]

You realize that was rhetorical right?

Now I do.

[WeSpy]

Glad this got pinned. It was necessary to the many fans who weren't/still aren't understanding the cap. If you guys would go to the original link that UndecidedFrog posted, it would really help you. Trust me.

[UndecidedFrog]

what did you come out with so I have an idea if Im way off

2012 cap

updated to reflect K. Hayden and J. McClendon carryover cap hits

32 players under contract = $55.17MM

9 players with dead cap space = $36.46MM

Luck = $4.20MM

20 Rookies= $9.3MM (allowing aggregate $1.5MM in premiums to picks #34 and #65)

Total = $105.13MM

Cap = $120.6MM

Available = $15.47MM

[WeSpy]

2012 cap

updated to reflect K. Hayden and J. McClendon carryover cap hits

32 players under contract = $55.17MM

9 players with dead cap space = $36.46MM

Luck = $4.20MM

20 Rookies= $9.3MM (allowing aggregate $1.5MM in premiums to picks #34 and #65)

Total = $105.13MM

Cap = $120.6MM

Available = $15.47MM

As good old Moe Howard used to say, "I'll keep it simple so even you can understand it..." Thanks, UndecidedFrog. Or is it---RustyNail?

No offense intended to anyone in this topic by the way, the Moe quote was a reference to myself.

[nothing0]

I wonder where the difference lies..

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/11/team-by-team-cap-space-as-of-march-11/related/

[UndecidedFrog]

I wonder where the difference lies..

http://profootballta...rch-11/related/

I don't know unless I see their assumptions and compare them against mine.

[Gavin]

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20120308/SPORTS01/303080054/Peyton-Manning-s-career-timeline

seems to me he shouldnt have signed that 90 million plus that bonus, yeah he new what he was doing I think

[FireJimCaldwell]

http://www.tennessea...career-timeline

seems to me he shouldnt have signed that 90 million plus that bonus, yeah he new what he was doing I think

That's on Irsay...

Manning turned down 5 years 100 million with 100% of guaranteed. He'd still be our quarterback if he accepted it..

[Gavin]

when wa sthis that he turned down a 100 million, and why would he accept 90 million and turn down 100 you would think when your talking about money that high seriously whats an extra 10 million

[GoColts8818]

So we are still on pace to have 80 million roughly in cap space next year (and I know that' before we make moves this year). That's crazy money in the NFL. This rebuilding process might not go as long as first thought.

I mean I think we will struggle this year but but that will lead to another high draft pick and probably a couple of more really solid draft picks (remember a high second rounder is pretty much the same as a late first rounder so in a way it's like you have two number ones.) Then if we spent that money wisely we could rebuild this team in Grigson's imange in couple of years and be right back in the hunt.

[FightLikeSin]

Great post guys! Thanks for clearing up all the cap questions. I'm looking forward to Free Agency. I have to think if they are going to blow up the team and start from scratch with Luck, you'll want to give him some weapons to succeed right? Gotta grab a WR and an OL for sure.

Ideal WR - Marques Colston

Alt WR - Laurent Robinson

Ideal OL - Carl Nicks

Alt OL - Ben Grubbs

Gotta get a SS, CB, NT, DE in the draft. Other free agents I wouldn't mind seeing in blue and white :

Mario Williams - DE

Brandon Jacobs RB

Michael Bush RB

Cory Redding - DE

Israel Idonije - DE

Maybe not realistic for this year, but it would certainly make sense to go out and get one of them.

[grmasterb]

I wonder where the difference lies..

http://profootballta...rch-11/related/

It notes that transactions after 4 p.m. ET on Friday are not included in the figures. When did the big cuts on Friday happen?

[Superman]

2012 cap

updated to reflect K. Hayden and J. McClendon carryover cap hits

32 players under contract = $55.17MM

9 players with dead cap space = $36.46MM

Luck = $4.20MM

20 Rookies= $9.3MM (allowing aggregate $1.5MM in premiums to picks #34 and #65)

Total = $105.13MM

Cap = $120.6MM

Available = $15.47MM

Why do we still have a cap hit for Hayden? What was the cut-off to make those roster cuts last offseason?

[UndecidedFrog]

Why do we still have a cap hit for Hayden? What was the cut-off to make those roster cuts last offseason?

Apparently he was a post June 1 release in 2011, therefore a portion of his dead cap space is allocated to 2012.

[Superman]

He would have to resign for a contract that hit the 2012 cap at no more than $6.6MM, otherwise it would do more damage to the cap than keeping the old contract.

Releasing = $10.4MM hit.

Keeping old contract = $17MM hit

difference = $6.6MM.

Per Andrew Brandt: http://espn.go.com/n...nts-unique-case

This is not to say that there will be no performance bonuses in Manning's next deal, but those incentives will be layered over heavy guarantees because of multiple bidders.

Any incentives will not count against the salary cap

, as cap treatment of incentives relate to a player's performance in the prior year and Manning had no performance in 2011.

[Superman]

Apparently he was a post June 1 release in 2011, therefore a portion of his dead cap space is allocated to 2012.

Everyone was a post June 1 release in 2011, though. What was the timeline to get the pre June 1 release benefit and avoid the carryover cap hit?

[UndecidedFrog]

Per Andrew Brandt: http://espn.go.com/n...nts-unique-case

This is not to say that there will be no performance bonuses in Manning's next deal, but those incentives will be layered over heavy guarantees because of multiple bidders.

Any incentives will not count against the salary cap

, as cap treatment of incentives relate to a player's performance in the prior year and Manning had no performance in 2011.

Andrew Brandt is correct.

PM could receive many incentives that would not hit the 2012 cap, but instead, hit the 2013 cap, primarily because PM did not play all last season. Thus all personal incentives are interpreted as NLTBE incentives.

Some examples:

$XMM for each game started in the 2012 season : NLTBE incentive

$XMM for each pass thrown in a game in 2012 season: NLTBE incentive

$XMM for achieving 5% pass completion in 2012 season: NLTBE incentive

You can see how ridiculous we can structure the deal.

Although, technically, these are incentive clauses, in reality, rational people will consider these really as almost guaranteed money, assuming PM is healthy enough to achieve these "incentives".

I would also think that many teams may object to this even though the CBA clearly defines what is a NLTBE incentive is one that was not achieved in the prior season. Then the lawyers might come in to argue what was the specific intent of the CBA language, rather than what the language is in and of itself.

But that is another subject altogether.

[UndecidedFrog]

Everyone was a post June 1 release in 2011, though. What was the timeline to get the pre June 1 release benefit and avoid the carryover cap hit?

LOL. I think the timeline to get the pre June 1 release benefits to avoid carryover, is to release players before June 1.

[Superman]

Andrew Brandt is correct.

PM could receive many incentives that would not hit the 2012 cap, but instead, hit the 2013 cap, primarily because PM did not play all last season. Thus all personal incentives are interpreted as NLTBE incentives.

Some examples:

$XMM for each game started in the 2012 season : NLTBE incentive

$XMM for each pass thrown in a game in 2012 season: NLTBE incentive

$XMM for achieving 5% pass completion in 2012 season: NLTBE incentive

You can see how ridiculous we can structure the deal.

Although, technically, these are incentive clauses, in reality, rational people will consider these really as almost guaranteed money, assuming PM is healthy enough to achieve these "incentives".

That being the case, we could do a heavily incentivized contract for him and keep his cap hit for 2012 at or below the $6.6 million. I didn't realize that; I thought the incentives were based on his last year played.

Any team could offer him a bonus for starting Week 1, another bonus for starting the first four games, another for starting the first 8 games, another for starting at least 12 games, another for starting the entire season, a playoff bonus, a 3,500 yard bonus, a 25 touchdown bonus, an MVP bonus, a Super Bowl bonus, etc., etc. He can rack these bonuses up, and the team could keep them off the cap for 2012 entirely.

Of course, that ship has sailed for us. The Colts are moving on. But he could get a $15 million signing bonus, and have a $5 million base salary, and make another $5-10 million in incentives, and get close to his $28 million bonus that he didn't get from us. And by the way, if we did that with him, those bonuses would be pushed into 2013, when we'll be flush with cap space.