2017-2018 Indiana Pacers and Everything NBA Thread

[chad72]

Lebron might up the ante and ask for an ownership stake with Dan Gilbert, IMO, in order to stay in Cleveland. If I were him, I'd do it, why not? No Lebron, no relevance for the Cavaliers, period. 

[dgambill]

3 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I was joking about buying a Durant jersey. I am not really on their bandwagon, I just like them better than I do LeBron. Had it not been for the Warriors, LeBron would be going for Championship #6 and 4 in a row. Imagine how the media would be if that was the case? Imagine how his fans would be? It would be unbearable. Heck he is about to be 3-6 in the Finals and a lot of the media still make excuses for him and have him 2nd best ever. His fans still think he is the GOAT.  

Ahh...no worse then the Jordan fans back in the day. It was annoying growing up and listening to them etc. No worse then listening to Boston fans talk about Brady. I don't want them to win either but if he did would all that talk legitimize the claims that he is the GOAT if he did win say 8 championships? People talk...I listen but I don't worry to much. IMO I don't worry about the greatest. Lebron is already better at many things then Jordan was...and Jordan several that Lebron was...like you said they are all time great. How many championships he wins means nothing in my eyes once he has won one. Since he has mutiiple with different teams in very different situations...he doesn't have to accomplish anything else to change my opinion of him.

[dgambill]

1 hour ago, chad72 said:

Lebron might up the ante and ask for an ownership stake with Dan Gilbert, IMO, in order to stay in Cleveland. If I were him, I'd do it, why not? No Lebron, no relevance for the Cavaliers, period. 

Will the league allow that? At least while he is a player...or would that have to start after he retires. He will have plenty to own his own team I'm sure of that. He is past MJ stage as a business man.

[oldunclemark]

7 hours ago, chad72 said:

Lebron might up the ante and ask for an ownership stake with Dan Gilbert, IMO, in order to stay in Cleveland. If I were him, I'd do it, why not? No Lebron, no relevance for the Cavaliers, period. 

LeBron cant afford to buy a stake in the Cavs....

Gilbert is so rich its disgusting. He can buy and sell LeBron 100 times and he owns four or five minor league sports franchises..in the Cleveland and Detroit area.

Unless he takes ill, Giolbert is not going anywhere and LeBron's not going to be a minority partner in anything..He would want to own the team like Michael Jordan

 

...but I think you are right that LeBron will one day own the Cleveland Cavaliers after he retires.  He does not have Michael's money now (MJ's net worth is over a billion) but he will

Edited June 8, 2018 by oldunclemark

[oldunclemark]

Folks..I keep hearing the name Landry Shamet linked with the Pacers at '23'

An okay point guard at 6-foot-4...good leaper...not a defender or rebounder..

..but a big time shooter.....NBA class.  over 4-0% for his career.

 

 

anybody seen other that a highlight reel on him?

[oldunclemark]

10 hours ago, dgambill said:

Lebron is a great off the ball defender....coming over to block shots and make steals in the passing lanes. He is definitely fairly avg one on one defender. It takes too much energy for a man his size to play at both ends of the court especially the way he plays offense. He expends soo soo much energy on offense...especially with Kyrie gone now and no one else to run the offense through (unless they get Hood going) that he doesn't have the stamina to do it on both ends like Durant does. His size just doesn't allow for that any more. The same size and strength that allows him to drive and take hits and over power guys now slows him down on the defensive end...and carrying all that muscle wears out the legs. Its also why in the last few years he kinda runs out of steam at the end of games. If he keeps playing we will see it more and more. MJ retired before he really slowed down....Kobe got hit by injuries towards the end. Lebron won't be able to be a two way player any longer...his age and body are fighting against him. That is why I think teaming up with a Paul George and some younger guys that can play defense or get their own shot if he goes to the bench. Lebron shouldn't be playing 46 minutes a night...not sure even Michael played that many minutes...be interesting to see. Lebron doesn't get to sit anymore....and its evident he can't sustain those types of minutes any longer and not take plays off.

I dont think LeBron is great at anything defensively.

…...'an off the ball defender' or a 'help defender' is what they used to call Larry Bird.

It was a delicate way of  saying he couldnt defend good players. 

When you see Kevin Love guarding Durant and LBJ playing a one-man zone in the lane....that's telling because few love Love on defense.

 

Speaking of Kevin Love, I wonder if LeBron can adjust mentally to being 'off the ball' in key moments.

......….that's why I dont think a hook-up with Houston works.

Who handles the ball late in the game?  Harden, Paul or LBJ?

LeBron wont go in the corner and spot up for 3s like Love had to do.  Harden wont either

[crazycolt1]

6 hours ago, oldunclemark said:

I dont think LeBron is great at anything defensively.

…...'an off the ball defender' or a 'help defender' is what they used to call Larry Bird.

It was a delicate way of  saying he couldnt defend good players. 

When you see Kevin Love guarding Durant and LBJ playing a one-man zone in the lane....that's telling because few love Love on defense.

 

Speaking of Kevin Love, I wonder if LeBron can adjust mentally to being 'off the ball' in key moments.

......….that's why I dont think a hook-up with Houston works.

Who handles the ball late in the game?  Harden, Paul or LBJ?

LeBron wont go in the corner and spot up for 3s like Love had to do.  Harden wont either

You have let your dislike of James effect what you think of him as a player.

You bring up his record in championships but yet championships are won by teams, not individual players.

Would MJ's record be what it was had it not been for those Bull's teams coached by Phil Jackson? 

[2006Coltsbestever]

5 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

You have let your dislike of James effect what you think of him as a player.

You bring up his record in championships but yet championships are won by teams, not individual players.

Would MJ's record be what it was had it not been for those Bull's teams coached by Phil Jackson? 

I am critical of LeBron's Finals record as well. I know it's a team sport so we have to be careful how we are critical about it. That is why I always say he belongs in the Top 10 that has ever played the game based on other factors. Even if he was 1-8 (not 3-6), I would still have him in the Top 10 based on winning at least 1 and his MVP's, Stats, etc..

[crazycolt1]

5 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I am critical of LeBron's Finals record as well. I know it's a team sport so we have to be careful how we are critical about it. That is why I always say he belongs in the Top 10 that has ever played the game based on other factors. Even if he was 1-8 (not 3-6), I would still have him in the Top 10 based on winning at least 1 and his MVP's, Stats, etc..

I don't follow NBA very much anymore but I think you are being bias by omitting what James has done in the history of the NBA.  Every era of the NBA is different and how the game was played.

You put James in any era of the NBA and he would have dominated just like he has in this era. Had James not been wanting to be in control of teams and followed a great coach like the greats of the past did he could very well be in the top 2 or 3 players in history.  Had he played for a coach like Phil Jackson like MJ did in his prime do you honestly think there would be a question? 

[Myles]

1 minute ago, crazycolt1 said:

Had James not been wanting to be in control of teams and followed a great coach like the greats of the past did he could very well be in the top 2 or 3 players in history.

Those are choices LeBron made as a player.   They factor into the overall resume. 

5 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I am critical of LeBron's Finals record as well. I know it's a team sport so we have to be careful how we are critical about it. That is why I always say he belongs in the Top 10 that has ever played the game based on other factors. Even if he was 1-8 (not 3-6), I would still have him in the Top 10 based on winning at least 1 and his MVP's, Stats, etc..

3-6 in the finals hurts his reputation.  

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

I don't follow NBA very much anymore but I think you are being bias by omitting what James has done in the history of the NBA.  Every era of the NBA is different and how the game was played.

You put James in any era of the NBA and he would have dominated just like he has in this era. Had James not been wanting to be in control of teams and followed a great coach like the greats of the past did he could very well be in the top 2 or 3 players in history.  Had he played for a coach like Phil Jackson like MJ did in his prime do you honestly think there would be a question? 

Yeah but I can make an argument that Magic Johnson could dominate in any era at 6'9. He was a 6'9 Point Guard - that could pass and dribble like John Stockton and score at will when he wanted. Lets just say I rank James 4th all-time instead of 1 or 2, what makes him better than Magic or Kareem? James is definitely not better than Jordan either, at least IMO he isn't.

[2006Coltsbestever]

In all honesty I would have no problem putting James 4th all-time because he is incredible. He is the best player of this era as well. He is today's thing! Having said that Magic was a 6'9 Point Guard who won 5 Championships and won Finals MVP as a Rookie and could play in any era. Kareem has won 6 Championships and is the NBA's all-time leading scorer at 7'2 with the most unstoppable shot in NBA history = the Skyhook. So to me James isn't better than those 2. By my eye test he isn't better either - that is my opinion. Jordan's resume is just unmatchable and by my eye test nobody was better than him. I hated him too, so it kills me to say that. I liked Magic but he was better than Magic = OUCH! In an all-time Draft I am not so sure I wouldn't take Shaq over LeBron as far as just pure dominance. Shaq is 1 of 2 players in NBA history to win 3 straight Finals MVP's - Jordan the other. From 2000-2002, Shaq was so dominant it was scary!

[chad72]

Hey, can we get Lebron and Derrick Favors? Do we have the cap room? Will that make us a true contender? 

[Finball]

2 hours ago, chad72 said:

Hey, can we get Lebron and Derrick Favors? Do we have the cap room? Will that make us a true contender? 

 

One big FA signing is plausible with couple of moves, two is not without some major moves and seriously compromising depth.

 

True contender.. that depends. GSW would still be heavy favorite if Durant re-signs.

[crazycolt1]

2 hours ago, Myles said:

Those are choices LeBron made as a player.   They factor into the overall resume. 

3-6 in the finals hurts his reputation.  

Only in the eyes of the fans. Those players who had to play against him I am sure have a different opinion.

It hurts the feelings of those who see their childhood or favorite players from the past fall in rankings.

They refuse to acknowledge how good James is.

Just look at his numbers in the playoffs this year? At his age too?

[crazycolt1]

1 hour ago, chad72 said:

Hey, can we get Lebron and Derrick Favors? Do we have the cap room? Will that make us a true contender? 

Do you honestly think Simon would go over the cap one penny ?  He never has so I highly doubt he would now.  Till we get an owner who is willing to what it takes to bring a championship to Indy we will see what we have seen since the Pacers merged.

[2006Coltsbestever]

5 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

Only in the eyes of the fans. Those players who had to play against him I am sure have a different opinion.

It hurts the feelings of those who see their childhood or favorite players from the past fall in rankings.

They refuse to acknowledge how good James is.

Just look at his numbers in the playoffs this year? At his age too?

This is not saying you regarded this Post to me, so no biggy but when I do rankings I take emotion and who I like out of it. You have to, to be unbiased. Otherwise I would have Reggie Miller ranked super high - he is my favorite all-time player. I do have Reggie in the Top 50 (which is Great all-time) but nowhere near the Top 25. To me I can buy LeBron is Top 5 ever but I just have a few players ahead of him. He has put up Great numbers in his career and has won 4 League MVP's + 3 Championships. His resume is Great but sorry his Finals record does have to be looked at when you compare him to guys like Jordan and Magic who were also non Big's. That is just my opinion and the opinion of many others. By my eye test I just don't think he is a better player than Jordan, Magic, or Kareem who all have Great resumes' as well. Like I said earlier, Shaq is in this discussion too out of the players I have seen. Kobe and Bird are as well. When Bulls/Colts and I did our all-time Draft, If I remember right I took LeBron 7th to be my SF, so I don't hate him as many may think. I picked him to be on my team so I know how great he is.

[crazycolt1]

24 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

This is not saying you regarded this Post to me, so no biggy but when I do rankings I take emotion and who I like out of it. You have to, to be unbiased. Otherwise I would have Reggie Miller ranked super high - he is my favorite all-time player. I do have Reggie in the Top 50 (which is Great all-time) but nowhere near the Top 25. To me I can buy LeBron is Top 5 ever but I just have a few players ahead of him. He has put up Great numbers in his career and has won 4 League MVP's + 3 Championships. His resume is Great but sorry his Finals record does have to be looked at when you compare him to guys like Jordan and Magic who were also non Big's. That is just my opinion and the opinion of many others. By my eye test I just don't think he is a better player than Jordan, Magic, or Kareem who all have Great resumes' as well. Like I said earlier, Shaq is in this discussion too out of the players I have seen. Kobe and Bird are as well. When Bulls/Colts and I did our all-time Draft, If I remember right I took LeBron 7th to be my SF, so I don't hate him as many may think. I picked him to be on my team so I know how great he is.

I understand your explanation as to why you don't think James should be in a least the top 3-5 players range but where you list him it seem it is reluctant for you to do so.  We all have different opinions I understand that but if you throw out the emotion, favorites and bias out and looked at the numbers James falls into the top of the list.

On a personal note I don't care too much for James but the numbers tell me he has to be in the top three at least.

Had he played "team" basketball his whole career I would show him more respect. His undermining head coaches is the negative issue I have with him.

[2006Coltsbestever]

6 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

I understand your explanation as to why you don't think James should be in a least the top 3-5 players range but where you list him it seem it is reluctant for you to do so.  We all have different opinions I understand that but if you throw out the emotion, favorites and bias out and looked at the numbers James falls into the top of the list.

On a personal note I don't care too much for James but the numbers tell me he has to be in the top three at least.

Had he played "team" basketball his whole career I would show him more respect. His undermining head coaches is the negative issue I have with him.

That is fair enough, he is going to have better all-time numbers than Magic had because he's played a lot longer. So that can be looked at in a lot of ways. Magic had to retire but he still played 12 Great seasons. Magic still has way more Assists and still is the all-time leader in Assist average per year at 11.2. I use my eye test a lot too - I know that is just opinion. But when I see a guy win NBA Finals MVP in his Rookie season like Magic did without Kareem vs Doctor J, Dawkins, Cheeks, Toney in Philly than that alone out measures anything LeBron has done. Magic was a Rookie and just beat Bird in the NCAA Finals, then won Finals MVP the next year against a stacked Philly team. Like I said I can buy LeBron at 4th and that is my opinion. 4th all-time is no dis and puts a player on Mt Rushmore. I feel good about that ranking as I am respecting him and recognize he has been the best player in this era.

[2006Coltsbestever]

Magic played Center in Game 6 in the 1980 Finals and scored 42 Points, 15 Rebounds, and 7 Assists as a Rookie on the road at hostile Philly. That will never happen again in NBA history, a Rookie winning Finals MVP. If a Rookie did that today and put up the numbers Magic did in Game 6, everyone in here would be calling that guy the GOAT. Magic did it vs Great players too, not Humpty Dumpty and his a little friends.

[aaron11]

7 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

Do you honestly think Simon would go over the cap one penny ?  He never has so I highly doubt he would now.  Till we get an owner who is willing to what it takes to bring a championship to Indy we will see what we have seen since the Pacers merged.

he said he would if the team was close to being a contender.  ironically the pacers would probably have to do that to get close in the first place

 

interview from last year https://www.indycornrows.com/2017/4/14/15300540/herb-simon-discusses-future-fieldhouse-renovations-and-salary-cap

[oldunclemark]

The 1993 Chicago BULLS

Bill Cartwright (age 34)

Stacey King

Ed Nealy

Rodney McCray

Darrell Walker

Trent Tucker

Corey Williams

Horace Grant

Will Purdue

Scott Williams

BJ Armstrong

Corey Williams

Joe Courtney

 

The 2018 CLEVELAND Cavaliers

Tristan Thompson

Jose Calderon

George Hill

Larry Nance Jr.

Jeff Green

Jordan Clarkson

Rodney Hood

Kyle Korver (age 37)

Cedi Osman

Ante Zizic

Kendrick Perkins

 

It keeps getting said that the players around Michael Jordan were far superior to the players around LeBron this season. ...what's here is the 2018 Cavs without LBJ and Kevin Love.....and the 1993 Bulls without Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen..

 

…..what do you think?

 

 

 

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

8 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

The 1993 Chicago BULLS

Bill Cartwright (age 34)

Stacey King

Ed Nealy

Rodney McCray

Darrell Walker

Trent Tucker

Corey Williams

Horace Grant

Will Purdue

Scott Williams

BJ Armstrong

Corey Williams

Joe Courtney

 

The 2018 CLEVELAND Cavaliers

Tristan Thompson

Jose Calderon

George Hill

Larry Nance Jr.

Jeff Green

Jordan Clarkson

Rodney Hood

Kyle Korver (age 37)

Cedi Osman

Ante Zizic

Kendrick Perkins

 

It keeps getting said that the players around Michael Jordan were far superior to the players around LeBron this season. ...what's here is the 2018 Cavs without LBJ and Kevin Love.....and the 1993 Bulls without Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen..

 

…..what do you think?

 

 

 

 

I think it's close. The 1993 Bulls weren't really loaded like the 1996 Bulls were with Rodman and Kukoc. What people will say to this is, well Michael had Phil Jackson.

[oldunclemark]

19 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I think it's close. The 1993 Bulls weren't really loaded like the 1996 Bulls were with Rodman and Kukoc. What people will say to this is, well Michael had Phil Jackson.

It is close...and I forgot JR Smith who has had big games (and knucklehead games)

 

I know you remember that those Bulls teams were called 'Michael and the Jordanaires'

He carried those teams just like LBJ is now. And that was TITLE team.. Will Purdue? Ed Nealy?

 

No knock on LeBron but he's not that close to Michael.

Mike averaged 32 a game in the post-season for life..(over 175 games) not just one year

Edited June 9, 2018 by oldunclemark

[2006Coltsbestever]

9 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

It is close...and I forgot JR Smith

 

I know you remember that those Bulls teams were called 'Michael and the Jordanaires'

He carried those teams just like LBJ is now. And that was TITLE team.. Will Purdue? Ed Nealy?

 

No knock on LeBron but he's not that close to Michael.

Mike averaged 32 a game in the post-season for life..not just one year

Be careful what you say because I have LeBron ranked 4th all-time now after what I seen from him this year and I still look like an ultimate Hater to some in here . I guess thinking Jordan, Magic, and Kareem were better is a sin around here . What is funny is they all were. Most people are about the now. Jordan 6 Titles, 6 Finals MVP's, 5 League MVP's, 10 Time Scoring Champ, 9 Time 1st team all Defense. Kareem NBA all-time leading scorer and 6 League MVP's/6 Titles, Magic 5 Titles, won Finals MVP as a Rookie with 42/15/7 in a close out game without Kareem against a stacked Philly team who had Doctor J in his prime. Nothing else needs to be said on my part. I have made my case for at least 3 players being better. If People cant buy a measily 3 players ranked ahead of him, Oh well I say

[oldunclemark]

You rank him ahead of Wilt, Olojuwon  and Kobe and that's more than I could do

[2006Coltsbestever]

Just now, oldunclemark said:

You rank him ahead of Wilt, Olojuwon  and Kobe and that's more than I could do

Yeah and I am the hater . I would put Wilt 5th, Bird 6th, Kobe 7th, Shaq 8th, Duncan 9th, and Russell 10th regarding my new updated list. Leaving Olajuwon and Robertson off is Bad but in a Top 10 you can only have 10 obviously. Russ has to be Top 10 because he won 11 Titles and was a force in his era, JMO.

[dgambill]

Good start from GS but lots of foul calls against them early. I see the home calls are going to continue.

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Good start from GS but lots of foul calls against them early. I see the home calls are going to continue.

13-11 now, 10 point lead down to 2 just like that.

[oldunclemark]

5 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Yeah and I am the hater . I would put Wilt 5th, Bird 6th, Kobe 7th, Shaq 8th, Duncan 9th, and Russell 10th regarding my new updated list. Leaving Olajuwon and Robertson off is Bad but in a Top 10 you can only have 10 obviously. Russ has to be Top 10 because he won 11 Titles and was a force in his era, JMO.

so many players get lost.

 

Elgin Baylor averaged 27 points for life..

...34.0 twice and 38,.0 in a half season where he was hurt.

Before the 3-point shot.  Few talk about him .

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 straight 3's by the Warriors LOL, lead back to 9 in 30 seconds. Ridiculously great.

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

so many players get lost.

 

Elgin Baylor averaged 27 points for life..

...34.0 twice and 38,.0 in a half season where he was hurt.

Before the 3-point shot.  Few talk about him .

Jerry West too, look at his Finals Stats. The Lakers had a crap load of great players. I do put a lot of weight on Titles but Russell's Stats weren't anywhere near Wilt's. Wilt put up video game numbers with 100 in 1 game  

[2006Coltsbestever]

When Swaggy P is nailing 3's it is going to be a long night for the LeBron's.

[oldunclemark]

Im waiting for the announcers to say that the guy who dosent rotate defensively is LeBron

[oldunclemark]

That's a new Cavs lineup..Love, Green, Thompson, plus LBJ and Hood at guard.

Have not seen that before

[2006Coltsbestever]

Just now, oldunclemark said:

Im waiting for the announcers to say that the guy who dosent rotate defensively is LeBron

Once again I will stick up for LeBron here and just say he has to preserve his energy so he can score is why he is playing lazy on Defense. He used to be a Great Defensive player when he was in Miami but at his age he cant play Great Offense and Defense for 40 minutes a game anymore.

[oldunclemark]

34-25 GSW at the quarter...Cavs look tired..Love play he entire quarter and LBJ had to sit.

He looks baked

[oldunclemark]

Just now, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Once again I will stick up for LeBron here and just say he has to preserve his energy so he can score is why he is playing lazy on Defense. He used to be a Great Defensive player when he was in Miami but at his age he cant play Great Offense and Defense for 40 minutes a game anymore.

That's the best way to put it. He used to be a good defensive player.

 

'Chase down blocks; from behind make the ESPN news but that's not really good defense

[oldunclemark]

I am very impressed by how GSW has shut out Korver....nobody else does that consistently

[2006Coltsbestever]

I wonder how Cleveland fans feel tonight knowing this may be LeBron's last game in a Cavs uniform? That has to be a sick feeling. I remember when Reggie retired, I was sick for a while.