National media NOT feeling the retainment of Chuck

[life long]

20 minutes ago, B~Town said:

 

Still waiting on that list btw easy way to make your case

 

We all know our D was horrible

Worst front 7 in football

1 CB that fit the scheme that played injured most the year

ILBs that cant cover

worst cover safety in the NFL having to play considerable time

Walden was our best pass rusher

 

Is it any wonder teams scored at will when they needed to air it out

 

Considering i never made any claim that he had goid talent at all positions, that list is just you making putting words in my mouth. I could ask you for a list of imorovements that chuck deserves responsible for directly, specifically on D which is why he was hired.

[life long]

18 minutes ago, braveheartcolt said:

So Kyle Shanahan and Josh McDaniels are Real HC's? You got me there....

They have a higher ceiling than pagano. They at least are good coordinators....

[life long]

13 minutes ago, braveheartcolt said:

No problem with what you say, just that you are a bit misinformed on lots of stuff. Banter is fine, but stop being paranoid about 'vet posters'. We have no more say than a noobie....

Misinformed because we dont agree on things that things that are mostly opinion based...... and paranoid nice..... i just point out that several veteran posters have a condensending way of disagreeing. I dont take any of this personal, which it seems many do. I love my team, have followed this forum since the early 2000's under many usernames. I know my opinions are just that, but when i disagree i do not imply others are not as educated just because we do not agree.

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

36 minutes ago, life long said:

I would not say mini, what position on D could not use a new young talent. The only "good" players we have on D are older.

Anderson and Geathers might pan out, also like what I saw out of Ridgeway he has a shot. Parry is serviceable but gets worn down. Morrison ahhh we will see, Edwin Jackson had some moments but is too small. Rashawn Melvin, didn't play that bad young, but something gives given he has been in the league 4 years and unable to stick with anybody? And Green plays more like a corner to me than a safety, he was over matched all year, probabley needed a red shirt year really, and I think he needs to get stronger. I like safeties who like to hit. I don't think he likes too. We will see next year.

[braveheartcolt]

4 minutes ago, life long said:

Misinformed because we dont agree on things that things that are mostly opinion based...... and paranoid nice..... i just point out that several veteran posters have a condensending way of disagreeing. I dont take any of this personal, which it seems many do. I love my team, have followed this forum since the early 2000's under many usernames. I know my opinions are just that, but when i disagree i do not imply others are not as educated just because we do not agree.

See your previous post for an example. You made a rather big song and dance about wanting a real HC, then you cite two 'coaches' who have done nothing as HC's, compared to Pagano at5 least. And I'm no fan of Pagano...

 

[life long]

1 minute ago, braveheartcolt said:

See your previous post for an example. You made a rather big song and dance about wanting a real HC, then you cite two 'coaches' who have done nothing as HC's, compared to Pagano at5 least. And I'm no fan of Pagano...

 

I said real HC not proven HC. 

[life long]

5 minutes ago, Horse Shoe Heaven said:

Anderson and Geathers might pan out, also like what I saw out of Ridgeway he has a shot. Parry is serviceable but gets worn down. Morrison ahhh we will see, Edwin Jackson had some moments but is too small. Rashawn Melvin, didn't play that bad young, but something gives given he has been in the league 4 years and unable to stick with anybody?

Agreed on some good young talent, but the front 7  and back end still need much more talent. Agreed?

[braveheartcolt]

5 minutes ago, life long said:

I said real HC not proven HC. 

Ta - da!!!

 

[life long]

4 minutes ago, life long said:

I said real HC not proven HC. 

Both are proven coordinators, which pagano never was.

[richard pallo]

I want an experienced and formerly successful GM and HC.  No more wasting Lucks time with us relying on newbies to come thru.  I am done with the coordinator path or assistant to path.   I don't care if they are not currently employed by a team or they are or if we need to trade for them.  I want experienced proven winners.  

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

3 minutes ago, life long said:

Agreed on some good young talent, but the front 7  and back end still need much more talent. Agreed?

Yup All the guys I mentioned could be upgraded via the draft! A Healthy Anderson could be a star though.

[life long]

4 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

I want an experienced and formerly successful GM and HC.  No more wasting Lucks time with us relying on newbies to come thru.  I am done with the coordinator path or assistant to path.   I don't care if they are not currently employed by a team or they are or if we need to trade for them.  I want experienced proven winners.  

Pagano was a 1 year DC, candidates this year are far more proven.

[life long]

3 minutes ago, Horse Shoe Heaven said:

Yup All the guys I mentioned could be upgraded via the draft! A Healthy Anderson could be a star though.

Lots of young players i look forward to seeing develop. Just not sold pagano is the guy after what i have seen. 

[Fisticuffs111]

9 minutes ago, life long said:

Pagano was a 1 year DC, candidates this year are far more proven.

This is why I'm not a fan of the "clear upgrade" argument.

Pagano was a somewhat uninspiring candidate to begin with. A longtime DB coach with one year as a coordinator with a stacked defense. There have been some really good looking candidates in comparison.

 

I know you can do worse than Chuck but I also think you can pretty easily do better.

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

1 minute ago, life long said:

Lots of young players i look forward to seeing develop. Just not sold pagano is the guy after what i have seen. 

He has no talent, he was good in Baltimore because he had talent. This draft is FULL OF TALENT on the defensive side of the ball. In positions of needs for the Colts!! Thats a good thing, smart good drafting an evaluating by the Colts could bring a lot of talent based on were the Colts draft!! Plus I would expect the Colts will have at least one additional compensation pick. Pagonos players would run throw a wall for him, I think he will get it done unless we draft say a small fast WR, like the dorrest pick, this draft for the Colts is going to be HUGE!!! They can't # it up this time!!

[life long]

10 minutes ago, Fisticuffs111 said:

This is why I'm not a fan of the "clear upgrade" argument.

If somebody with Pagano's experience was about to become the next HC, a longtime DB coach with one year as a coordinator with a stacked defense, fans would be really worried. 

I know you can do worse than Pagano but I think you can easily do better.

Still you have to admit shannahan and mcdaniels are much more proven than pagano was. If there is a proven superbowl winning coach who is out of a job then take that interview as well. The coordinator arguement has "everyone has to start somewhere" going for it. That is how pagano got hired in the first place.

[life long]

3 minutes ago, Horse Shoe Heaven said:

He has no talent, he was good in Baltimore because he had talent. This draft is FULL OF TALENT on the defensive side of the ball. In positions of needs for the Colts!! Thats a good thing, smart good drafting an evaluating by the Colts could bring a lot of talent based on were the Colts draft!! Plus I would expect the Colts will have at least one additional compensation pick. Pagonos players would run throw a wall for him, I think he will get it done unless we draft say a small fast WR, like the dorrest pick, this draft for the Colts is going to be HUGE!!! They can't # it up this time!!

I dont think they were good in BAL because of pagano though. Shannahan has the best resume for getting more from his side of the ball at least. We just keep hiring one year DCs from Baltimore...... when obviously that team is run by newsome and harbaugh (and run fairly well)

[SaturdayAllDay]

1 hour ago, life long said:

How many times has a coach on a hot seat actually pulled through to save his job? More often than not the heat gets to them and are fired. If it happens next season are there going to be better candidates next offseason? A lot seem to be willing to gamble there will be...

There isnt much difference in the candidates now to next yr. McDaniels isnt going anywhere, Patricia isnt going anywhere, gruden isnt going anywhere, we could still make a play for payton next yr. The old person we miss out on at this point is k shanahan, and he has all but agreed to go to the 49ers. 

Luck wont have time to properly learn a new offense with his injury this off season. I can see the argument for staying the course. Dont necessarily agree with it, but i get it. 

[life long]

1 minute ago, SaturdayAllDay said:

There isnt much difference in the candidates now to next yr. McDaniels isnt going anywhere, Patricia isnt going anywhere, gruden isnt going anywhere, we could still make a play for payton next yr. The old person we miss out on at this point is k shanahan, and he has all but agreed to go to the 49ers. 

Luck wont have time to properly learn a new offense with his injury this off season. I can see the argument for staying the course. Dont necessarily agree with it, but i get it. 

Luck is a pretty smart guy no? How many OCs has he had now? I think he could do it.

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

Just now, life long said:

I dont think they were good in BAL because of pagano though. Shannahan has the best resume for getting more from his side of the ball at least. We just keep hiring one year DCs from Baltimore...... when obviously that team is run by newsome and harbaugh (and run fairly well)

Exactly my point Pagano has NO DEFENSIVE TALENT TO WORK WITH!! Grigsons fault IMO and Grigson should never had let Freeman or Bethea leave! Give the man some talent. As far as Shannahan NOT A FAN!! honestly the guy has not been that good when he didn't have Elway. The Redskins let him go because becuase he couldn't get it done. IMO OVERRATED!! It was no surprise to me Gruden has had sucess in Wash. when Shannahan didn't! I don't like him!!

[SaturdayAllDay]

Just now, life long said:

Luck is a pretty smart guy no? How many OCs has he had now? I think he could do it.

He also had a whole offseason to learn the new playbook. He wont have that this year. Even peyton manning hit a few bumps learning a new system from kubiak. Being smart helps, but it doesnt mean its easy. 

[OffensivelyPC]

37 minutes ago, life long said:

I said real HC not proven HC. 

 

31 minutes ago, life long said:

Both are proven coordinators, which pagano never was.

Those two things are not the same.  Pagano wasn't established, sure, but you make it sound like "real" HCs are just falling from the football tree of life. And whatever you mean by "real" HC, you don't even seem to have a solid understanding of what you mean except that from what I gather, a "real HC" is just not one as bad as Pagano.  The reality of it is, good coaches aren't just willing to up and switch teams, and the ones that are established coordinators don't always make the jump to be a good HC.  Throw around terms like "real" and "proven."  They aren't just waiting to be hired like you seem to make sound...

[life long]

6 minutes ago, SaturdayAllDay said:

He also had a whole offseason to learn the new playbook. He wont have that this year. Even peyton manning hit a few bumps learning a new system from kubiak. Being smart helps, but it doesnt mean its easy. 

The problem was not the complexity of kubiaks system. It just did not suit mannings remaining strengths. Luck will still have the full offseason to learn a new playbook like past offseasons. Obviously the early work will be mostly mental, but still team activities are a ways away. I saw reported he could be throwing in three months and expected to be fine by start of camp.

[life long]

8 minutes ago, OffensivelyPC said:

 

Those two things are not the same.  Pagano wasn't established, sure, but you make it sound like "real" HCs are just falling from the football tree of life. And whatever you mean by "real" HC, you don't even seem to have a solid understanding of what you mean except that from what I gather, a "real HC" is just not one as bad as Pagano.  The reality of it is, good coaches aren't just willing to up and switch teams, and the ones that are established coordinators don't always make the jump to be a good HC.  Throw around terms like "real" and "proven."  They aren't just waiting to be hired like you seem to make sound...

I admit i purposely used vague words like that as an attempt to stay on topic. It would be a whole different long topic for what i think a real HC is. I have listed on this discussion a list of real hcs for braveheart. I do not hate pagano but do think he is too easy on his guys. He is about chopping wood and out working an opponent. I think we need someone who is more x's and o's. The guys i listed are just that, while in baltimore pagano got to count on talent that the colts simply do not possess. These guys are more of a real HC material than pagano ever was. And for this context assume real=proven.

[SaturdayAllDay]

Just now, life long said:

The problem was not the complexity of kubiaks system. It just did not suit mannings remaining strengths. Luck will still have the full offseason to learn a new playbook like past offseasons. Obviously the early work will be mostly mental, but still team activities are a ways away. I saw reported he could be throwing in three months and expected to be fine by start of camp.

The other factor that would come into play is if its a different system entirely. Luck has had several different playbooks, but they are all air Coryell based systems. There is much higher learning curve going from air coryell to a west coast scheme vs going from air coryell A to air coryell B. It all depends on what the new coach wants to run really. 

And like manning, luck has strengths and weaknesses. He can have the same bumps if the new system isnt within his perfect comfort zone. There are a lot of variables to consider. 

[OffensivelyPC]

5 minutes ago, life long said:

I admit i purposely used vague words like that as an attempt to stay on topic. It would be a whole different long topic for what i think a real HC is. I have listed on this discussion a list of real hcs for braveheart. I do not hate pagano but do think he is too easy on his guys. He is about chopping wood and out working an opponent. I think we need someone who is more x's and o's. The guys i listed are just that, while in baltimore pagano got to count on talent that the colts simply do not possess. These guys are more of a real HC material than pagano ever was. And for this context assume real=proven.

Fair enough.  There's still an issue of whether the fact they are good coordinators will translate into being a good HC.  Obviously the more experience, the better that factor of the resume.  I think Pagano's issues have less to do with being easy on his players and more to do with the fact that he just doesn't always seem to scheme toward removing opponents best players from the game.  Part of that is a personnel problem he inherits from Grigson, part of that is game planning.  He doesn't always utilze our best offensive players either.  For a lot of the  reasons you can find anywhere on these forums, Pagano's shortcomings as a coach are less personality traits and soundbites and more to do with what separates good caoching from bad coaching.

[life long]

32 minutes ago, Horse Shoe Heaven said:

Exactly my point Pagano has NO DEFENSIVE TALENT TO WORK WITH!! Grigsons fault IMO and Grigson should never had let Freeman or Bethea leave! Give the man some talent. As far as Shannahan NOT A FAN!! honestly the guy has not been that good when he didn't have Elway. The Redskins let him go because becuase he couldn't get it done. IMO OVERRATED!! It was no surprise to me Gruden has had sucess in Wash. when Shannahan didn't! I don't like him!!

Im talking about kyle s. I dont want his dad as gm

[Buddy Lee]

1 hour ago, life long said:

Both are proven coordinators, which pagano never was.

I agree. Pagano is often credited as being DC of a top notch Ravens defense. Technically he was, but in reality it was for only one year and it was already set up for him by his predecessors.He had top notch players in place. He didn't change schemes or the defense. All he had to do was not screw it up.

[life long]

45 minutes ago, SaturdayAllDay said:

The other factor that would come into play is if its a different system entirely. Luck has had several different playbooks, but they are all air Coryell based systems. There is much higher learning curve going from air coryell to a west coast scheme vs going from air coryell A to air coryell B. It all depends on what the new coach wants to run really. 

And like manning, luck has strengths and weaknesses. He can have the same bumps if the new system isnt within his perfect comfort zone. There are a lot of variables to consider. 

Most first year oc's will use the old system as a jump off point to explain their own. Do you think luck doesnt have the abilities to be a west coast offense qb? IMO he was a sure thing first pick due to the belief he could learn any system and more importantly would fit any system.

 

Personally i want my team to be flexible ala the pats. Ability on d to run man and zone well. On O to play make plays on the ground if need be maybe some screens * our o line may excell at these if coached up*,short/mid range throws or to aim deeper for the passing lanes to uncover. It is asking a lot because most coaches specialize. In the end its about making good adjustments, which I think pagano has not shown the ability consistently imo. If anything he has made some very troublong adjstments that have cost this team games. 

[BOTT]

4 hours ago, Timo1 said:

I watched Mike and Mike today as well. Greenberg was comparing the Colts situation to the jets 2 years ago when rex Ryan was there. The Colts are allot different. The Colts have a franchise qb and off to go with him. Chuck is a better head coach then rex Ryan is in my opinion. If Chuck and gris had been on the same page the last 4yrs I believe the def would've been built and in the top 10 in the league.

Greenbaum is an *.  He is another espn guy that for some unknown reason really dislikes Jim Irsay.

[NannyMcafee]

2 hours ago, life long said:

Until Shannahan signs i would include him with mcdaniels. Why would he not want to work with luck compared to what the 9'ers have? Either of which IMO is a huge upgrade.

 

I agree. I don't understand so many people's assumption that shannahan signs with the niners. Now that Grigson is gone he would be smart to hold off for at least until a week or so after the SB. Like I said before, who wouldn't pick the colts with this offense? And it's not like staying in Atlanta won't serve him well. He holds all the cards and the 49ers aren't exactly a coveted job right now. 

[AustexColt]

The selection of a new GM and keeping the coach and staff helps settle the concern about improvement and continuity. The question is which player will we keep and let go, and I think the coaches have some inputs which along with the new GM will mold the future of this franchise. The key attribute of this new GM is player evaluation and draft. There were too many special talent players that we let slip through our fingers in the draft. We signed too many aged players. Pagano is on the hot seat if he is retained for 2017, and so is his staff.

[SaturdayAllDay]

20 minutes ago, life long said:

Most first year oc's will use the old system as a jump off point to explain their own. Do you think luck doesnt have the abilities to be a west coast offense qb? IMO he was a sure thing first pick due to the belief he could learn any system and more importantly would fit any system.

 

Personally i want my team to be flexible ala the pats. Ability on d to run man and zone well. On O to play make plays on the ground if need be maybe some screens * our o line may excell at these if coached up*,short/mid range throws or to aim deeper for the passing lanes to uncover. It is asking a lot because most coaches specialize. In the end its about making good adjustments, which I think pagano has not shown the ability consistently imo. If anything he has made some very troublong adjstments that have cost this team games. 

Luck seems to have issues with ball placement at times, and he seems hesitant at throwing a receiver open, opting to only throw to someone once they are open. To me I think that means he will have a few bumps on timing routes and stuff like that (and has shown some bad decisions with those in the few times he has appeared to try). I think Luck could learn any system, but I dont think it will be seamless, and I can see the argument that 2 months isnt enough time to put Luck in the best position to succeed. 

 

Like i said in the original post, I dont necessarily agree with the decision, But I understand where they are coming from. I want a system in place like the Pats or the Falcons, who can change what they do based on the opponent, and I hope we get it, but those offenses arent made over night. Yes Luck can learn things while not throwing, like terminology and stuff like that. What he cant do is the most important part of learning a new playbook, which is getting the reps in with the other players and being able to know that the other person has it down and can get the job done. That was a big thing Peyton talked about with a new offense. Getting to know which players do better on which plays, routes, etc. 

 

If Luck went in with a new coach and had a terrible year, the fans would be clamoring for a new coach after one season, If Irsay and the new GM think we should give the new coach the best possible chance at getting his team in order so that he can be a success, then I will support the decision.  

[BOTT]

13 minutes ago, AustexColt said:

The selection of a new GM and keeping the coach and staff helps settle the concern about improvement and continuity. The question is which player will we keep and let go, and I think the coaches have some inputs which along with the new GM will mold the future of this franchise. The key attribute of this new GM is player evaluation and draft. There were too many special talent players that we let slip through our fingers in the draft. We signed too many aged players. Pagano is on the hot seat if he is retained for 2017, and so is his staff.

I have learned to hate the word continuity.

[life long]

17 minutes ago, SaturdayAllDay said:

Luck seems to have issues with ball placement at times, and he seems hesitant at throwing a receiver open, opting to only throw to someone once they are open. To me I think that means he will have a few bumps on timing routes and stuff like that (and has shown some bad decisions with those in the few times he has appeared to try). I think Luck could learn any system, but I dont think it will be seamless, and I can see the argument that 2 months isnt enough time to put Luck in the best position to succeed. 

 

Like i said in the original post, I dont necessarily agree with the decision, But I understand where they are coming from. I want a system in place like the Pats or the Falcons, who can change what they do based on the opponent, and I hope we get it, but those offenses arent made over night. Yes Luck can learn things while not throwing, like terminology and stuff like that. What he cant do is the most important part of learning a new playbook, which is getting the reps in with the other players and being able to know that the other person has it down and can get the job done. That was a big thing Peyton talked about with a new offense. Getting to know which players do better on which plays, routes, etc. 

 

If Luck went in with a new coach and had a terrible year, the fans would be clamoring for a new coach after one season, If Irsay and the new GM think we should give the new coach the best possible chance at getting his team in order so that he can be a success, then I will support the decision.  

For his issues throwing short as of late, maybe that may have something with his shoulder which he may have been aware of as well.

 

Plus its not like chuck has not had years to show steady improvement. I dont think anyone wants us to fire any coach year 1, but its not year 1 for pagano. Coaches these days get 5-6 years. Its no longer the teams keep losing coaches for a decade. Not to say he is a losing coach, he is not. Good coach he may become , currently not there yet.

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

57 minutes ago, life long said:

Im talking about kyle s. I dont want his dad as gm

Hes never been a HC not so interested and hes already taken to boot. An improvement over Pagano? Maybe? He could crash and burn. In SF probably will happen.

[Coltfreak]

5 hours ago, Fisticuffs111 said:

I just don't get the "Pagano's gone next year anyways" talk.

 

If that really is the case, then why not just promote Chud, who could get axed along with Pagano next year anyways especially if we bring in an offensive minded HC, and see how he does without Chuck's scheme hanging over him?

This season will be so awkward if it's just a waiting game until Chuck is fired. And not just for us but for the players as well.

# no to Chud.  

[life long]

8 minutes ago, Horse Shoe Heaven said:

Hes never been a HC not so interested and hes already taken to boot. An improvement over Pagano? Maybe? He could crash and burn. In SF probably will happen.

He has not been officially named anything in SF, anything can happen no matter how sure you are. This past week showed colts fans this already.

[Fisticuffs111]

7 minutes ago, Coltfreak said:

# no to Chud.  

 

I think there is something to how Pep and Chud struggled with some of the same things coaching under Pagano's scheme.

[Coltfreak]

3 hours ago, Horse Shoe Heaven said:

I think he good not great, got the Colts to the AFC championship? How quickly people forget.

Pep was the OC then.     Do you think he should get credit too?   He was fired.  Do you think he shouldn't have because they stalled after Luck got hurt last yr?