Lets be real: Peyton was held back by this franchise and coaches

[19colt]

Luck can get to elite level but he is going to need a sidekick off the field to do it. Manning had Moore and Gase in his best years. Brady has had BB, Weis and McDaniels. Brees has Payton. Luck has had.....you get the picture.

[Yoshinator]

Just now, 19colt said:

Luck can get to elite level but he is going to need a sidekick off the field to do it. Manning had Moore and Gase in his best years. Brady has had BB, Weis and McDaniels. Brees has Payton. Luck has had.....you get the picture.

I get the picture 100%, I wish we could get harbaugh so bad, lol. I think he and Luck would gel perfectly.

[2006Coltsbestever]

Just now, 19colt said:

Luck can get to elite level but he is going to need a sidekick off the field to do it. Manning had Moore and Gase in his best years. Brady has had BB, Weis and McDaniels. Brees has Payton. Luck has had.....you get the picture.

I think if we had a Good consistent Defense that can hold teams to 20-23 points a game every week, Luck would probably go 11-5 every season. We don't even need a Great Defense with him at QB.

[Yoshinator]

Just now, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I think if we had a Good consistent Defense that can hold teams to 20-23 points a game every week, Luck would probably go 11-5 every season. We don't even need a Great Defense with him at QB.

This is why I want to just tank the year, not to get off subject, but we can get two first rounders possibly if someone falls in the late 1st, and get a quality 3rd round defensive player at the top of the round. Also have two 4th round picks most likely. Build the team defensively through next year's draft, and if we hit on the picks and they make an instant impact, we are playoff contenders again. Just don't want to put Luck in the same situation for the rest of his career team wise as Peyton was.

[Smoke317]

3 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

I disagree with Addai. He was not drafted to be a ground pounder or a player who ran for a lot of yards. He was drafted to block for Manning and catch passes out of the back field. That is something he was very good at and excelled at.

True but I believe Jones-Drew was better than him in both areas. 

[southwest1]

1 hour ago, Jared Cisneros said:

To me, when Peyton went out with a SB win, that was just like a SB victory to me. A bit sacreligious to say here, but I live in colorado and peyton manning was retiring and starting in the SB, so it meant a lot to me to see him get it done. Hope Luck can get us 1 during his time here.

True, it wasn't Peyton's best performance under center vs Carolina, but I didn't care, the right team & the right QB won that night. Plus, it almost made me forget that SB against Seattle. Thank God. Man, I loved Mr. Dab falling flat on his face. It was freaking great! Yeah, I said it. 

 

Only 1 clarification with your last sentence Jared. I want 2 rings for Andrew because I'm greedy & I make no apologies for that. So it shall be written so it shall be done. Think of it like an ancient prophecy: Certain & undeniable. 

[crazycolt1]

7 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

True but I believe Jones-Drew was better than him in both areas. 

I really don't know how to respond to you saying Drew was a better blocker.

The QBs for the Jags got notoriously pounded during the time Drew was there.

He only caught 11 TDs in his whole career.

Sorry, I cant agree to your comment.

[Smoke317]

18 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

I really don't know how to respond to you saying Drew was a better blocker.

The QBs for the Jags got notoriously pounded during the time Drew was there.

He only caught 11 TDs in his whole career.

Sorry, I cant agree to your comment.

Look at what you just said.... The QB's for the Jags.... You want to compare Addai's receiving stats to Drew's when Addai played with Peyton, the greatest statistical QB of all time and Drew played with who???  David Garrard & Byron Leftwich??  MJD's stats would have been off the charts with Manning. So no need to be sorry. You're just not looking at the big picture. 

So let's look at this a little deeper. Joe only played 6 seasons so we'll only look at Drew's first 6 seasons to compare. 

Joe - had 2 1000 yard rushing seasons, rushed for 39 TD's, and caught 9 TD's playing with the greatest statistical QB of all time.  Oh and Addai's 2 1000 yard season came in his first 2 years where though he split carries with Rhodes he got the most carries...

Drew - had 3 1000 yard rushing seasons, rushed for 62 TD's, and caught 11 TD's playing with Garrard and Leftwich. His 1000 yard seasons came after his first 3 seasons. His first 3 seasons Fred Taylor was the starter who got the majority of the carries. Yet he still rushed for 941, 768, & 824 yards respectively.  I don't think there's any comparison on who the better all around back was. And I include blocking. He may not have been better than Addai but he wasn't a liability by any means. MJD had no problem putting one of the more feared pass rushers in Shawn Merriman on his backside. Maybe the greatest blitz pickup I've ever seen...

[AZColt11]

Well, if you are gonna prop Gruden for taking TB to the Superbowl, then you gotta slam him for NOT getting the Raiders there because they went to face his Bucs the year he left!  This often gets overlooked.

 

Either way IMHO Gruden would be a FAR CRY from what we have now.  I would welcome him to Indy.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

5 hours ago, YourNextGM said:

Oh please,  he was the head coach in Tampa.  Those offenses were his responsibilities.  They sucked,  he's to blame.  The offense didn't look as bad when Gruden came.  Tell me,  how many rings would Peyton have had if Gruden was his coach? I'd bet more than 1 in Indy.  

 

Aside from the SB victory, the Gruden era in Tampa really was just bad. Post SB, his teams went 7-9, 5-11, 11-5, 4-12, 9-7, 9-7, and the offense got worse every single year. Long story short, NFL defenses figured out Spider Z Y Banana a long time ago.

[crazycolt1]

8 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

Look at what you just said.... The QB's for the Jags.... You want to compare Addai's receiving stats to Drew's when Addai played with Peyton, the greatest statistical QB of all time and Drew played with who???  David Garrard???  MJD's stats would have been off the charts with Manning. So no need to be sorry. You're just not looking at the big picture. 

You said his blocking was better but it was not or the Jags QBs wouldn't have got pounded.

You may want to under value Addai all you care to but he ran and received a huge amount of first downs with 327. He also only had 7 career fumbles.

You are trying to compare apples to oranges.

Drew was a better runner because of what he brought.

Addai was a better blocker and receiver out of the back field because of what he brought.

To say one was better than the other is not seeing the big picture because they were different types of RBs.

The stats back it up.

 

[IinD]

2 minutes ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

Aside from the SB victory, the Gruden era in Tampa really was just bad. Post SB, his teams went 7-9, 5-11, 11-5, 4-12, 9-7, 9-7, and the offense got worse every single year. Long story short, NFL defenses figured out Spider Z Y Banana a long time ago.

That whole spider banana thing was so annoying in Lucks draft year.

 

They mentioned it every 5 minutes.

[crazycolt1]

6 minutes ago, AZColt11 said:

Well, if you are gonna prop Gruden for taking TB to the Superbowl, then you gotta slam him for NOT getting the Raiders there because they went to face his Bucs the year he left!  This often gets overlooked.

 

Either way IMHO Gruden would be a FAR CRY from what we have now.  I would welcome him to Indy.

Beware of what you want.

Every team Gruden has been with the players and coaches have an almost hate attitude about him.

I have read that he was a two faced liar and a back stabber by more than a couple of ex players and coaches.

I just cant back a coach who lights up like a x-mas tree every time a camera gets within 50 feet of him.

If he was that well thought of he would be getting more offers to coach.

 

[AZColt11]

4 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Beware of what you want.

Every team Gruden has been with the players and coaches have an almost hate attitude about him.

I have read that he was a two faced liar and a back stabber by more than a couple of ex players and coaches.

I just cant back a coach who lights up like a x-mas tree every time a camera gets within 50 feet of him.

If he was that well thought of he would be getting more offers to coach.

 

Maybe he is and he doesn't want them?  Who knows?  I have no idea what ABC/ESPN is paying him.

 

Oh, and I could care less if he's a son-of-a-+.  If he wins, then it's fine with me.  We've had a REALLY swell guy coaching the Colts for the last 4 years and they are now getting worse by the year too.

[2006Coltsbestever]

11 minutes ago, IinD said:

That whole spider banana thing was so annoying in Lucks draft year.

 

They mentioned it every 5 minutes.

SPIDER 2 Y BANANA man, I am Jonny Gruden and approve this message!

[crazycolt1]

2 minutes ago, AZColt11 said:

Maybe he is and he doesn't want them?  Who knows?  I have no idea what ABC/ESPN is paying him.

What does that say?

Is he more interested in having a camera on him than coaching?

Is it money?

[AZColt11]

Just now, crazycolt1 said:

What does that say?

Is he more interested in having a camera on him than coaching?

Is it money?

Man, I don't know.  I just want a guy in here that can lead the team AND make good coaching decisions.  If he's a nice guy, then so be it.

[YourNextGM]

20 minutes ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

Aside from the SB victory, the Gruden era in Tampa really was just bad. Post SB, his teams went 7-9, 5-11, 11-5, 4-12, 9-7, 9-7, and the offense got worse every single year. Long story short, NFL defenses figured out Spider Z Y Banana a long time ago.

With those qbs,  to finish 9-7 was a miracle.  And that defense was old and done

[crazycolt1]

3 minutes ago, AZColt11 said:

Man, I don't know.  I just want a guy in here that can lead the team AND make good coaching decisions.  If he's a nice guy, then so be it.

I understand your thoughts but IMO Gruden wouldn't bring what you want to the Colts.

 

[AZColt11]

1 minute ago, crazycolt1 said:

I understand your thoughts but IMO Gruden wouldn't bring what you want to the Colts.

 

Who would you recommend?

[Smoke317]

24 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

You said his blocking was better but it was not or the Jags QBs wouldn't have got pounded.

You may want to under value Addai all you care to but he ran and received a huge amount of first downs with 327. He also only had 7 career fumbles.

You are trying to compare apples to oranges.

Drew was a better runner because of what he brought.

Addai was a better blocker and receiver out of the back field because of what he brought.

To say one was better than the other is not seeing the big picture because they were different types of RBs.

The stats back it up.

 

When has Peyton ever gotten consistently pounded?  He always got rid of the ball quickly.  Stats say Drew was the better receiver. And he played with trash QB's. Not the greatest statistical QB of all time.... Give him 6 prime years with Peyton and his recieiving stats would have been better than they are and they're already better than Joe's. But let's say I give you Joe was the better blocker. So you're saying we used a 1st round pick on a "blocking back"???  That proves my point that we misused our 1st round picks on O when they should have been going defense. And it also proves that Joe belongs on the same list as Gonzalez and Brown.  

And I don't hate Joe. I even had his jersey back in the day. He helped us win a Super Bowl. So he's ok in my book. Part of me thinks we may have gotten more out of MJD that's all. 

[crazycolt1]

3 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

When has Peyton ever gotten consistently pounded?  He always got rid of the ball quickly.  Stats say Drew was the better receiver. And he played with trash QB's. Not the greatest statistical QB of all time.... Give him 6 prime years with Peyton and his recieiving stats would have been better than they are and they're already better than Joe's. But let's say I give you Joe was the better blocker. So you're saying we used a 1st round pick on a "blocking back"???  That proves my point that we misused our 1st round picks on O when they should have been going defense. And it also proves that Joe belongs on the same list as Gonzalez and Brown. 

Your not giving me nothing. They were two different RBs and was just as good as the other in what they did.

Arguing over apples and oranges serves no purpose.

You have your opinion and I have mine. Lets move on?

[Smoke317]

2 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Your not giving me nothing. They were two different RBs and was just as good as the other in what they did.

Arguing over apples and oranges serves no purpose.

You have your opinion and I have mine. Lets move on?

I gave you everything. Lol. Addai was not a 1st round running back. But fair enough. We'll move on. 

[crazycolt1]

6 minutes ago, AZColt11 said:

Who would you recommend?

I have no answers to that question.

If we go with a retread will their problems stay the same as why they were fired?

If we go with another rookie HC would we have the same results as we have now?

That's the problem, a lot want someone fired but none of us knows what the answers are.

All we have is opinions.

[AZColt11]

2 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

I have no answers to that question.

If we go with a retread will their problems stay the same as why they were fired?

If we go with another rookie HC would we have the same results as we have now?

That's the problem, a lot want someone fired but none of us knows what the answers are.

All we have is opinions.

Well hell get Howdy Doody with Gumby at DC in here if they can coach'em up. Doesn't matter to me so long as they WIN.  LOL

[JPFolks]

7 hours ago, YourNextGM said:

I don't care if Dungy is in the HOF,  1 of the most overrated coaches in history.  Mora and Caldwell speak for themselves.  I'm starting to get the feeling that people think Jim Irsay knows what he's doing just because he had what I believe to be the best qb in the history of the sport.  The playoff failures could have been reversed had Peyton had a coach that actually coached him. 

Peyton regularly underperformed in the playoffs.  Since he was the field general when he was out there, in charge of what play was enacted, all adjustments etc. (after a concept "suggestion" from Tom Moore) he bears 99% of the blame for his playoff results which were abysmal.   Sure, he won 2 Super Bowls.. one because of Bob Sanders and two journeyman Running Backs and another because of a transformative defense led by the best player of his generation at rush linebacker.   He played average to poorly in both Superbowl wins and horribly in the losses.  And coaches don't throw interceptions. 

 

That said, I agree Dungy had no killer instinct, but compared to Pagano he looks like Darth Vader.   Caldwell is out of the same school.  Too nice. 

[crazycolt1]

3 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

I gave you everything. Lol. Addai was not a 1st round running back. But fair enough. We'll move on. 

If you insist you can have the last word if it's all that important to you.

You know what is said about opinions, they are like *******,  every one has one but they all stink but your own.

Fill in the blank.

 

[Smoke317]

16 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

If you insist you can have the last word if it's all that important to you.

You know what is said about opinions, they are like *******,  every one has one but they all stink but your own.

Fill in the blank.

 

• How can I have the last word when you keep responding?  My ******* sure does stink though.  Lol. 

[AZColt11]

I'm not sure comparing one generation QB to another is even relevant.  Where do you start and where do you end?  What is your criteria?  And how far do you want to go back?  To Unitas? 

 

I think it's much more relevant to compare current QB's to each other, and even THAT is tough to do with differences in coaching, teammates, etc.  The QBR is about the best indicator I have found because it accounts for your teams' deficiencies and factors that into the numbers.  Luck's current QBR is 8th.  Not great, but certainly NOT the problem in Indy.

[Smoke317]

19 minutes ago, AZColt11 said:

I'm not sure comparing one generation QB to another is even relevant.  Where do you start and where do you end?  What is your criteria?  And how far do you want to go back?  To Unitas? 

 

I think it's much more relevant to compare current QB's to each other, and even THAT is tough to do with differences in coaching, teammates, etc.  The QBR is about the best indicator I have found because it accounts for your teams' deficiencies and factors that into the numbers.  Luck's current QBR is 8th.  Not great, but certainly NOT the problem in Indy.

8th isn't bad at all.  12 teams make they playoffs every year so it seems like he's doing his part and definitely not THE problem. Sure he could be better but even slight improvements in other areas and we'd probably have a winning record right now. 

[19colt]

1 hour ago, JPFolks said:

Peyton regularly underperformed in the playoffs.  Since he was the field general when he was out there, in charge of what play was enacted, all adjustments etc. (after a concept "suggestion" from Tom Moore) he bears 99% of the blame for his playoff results which were abysmal.   Sure, he won 2 Super Bowls.. one because of Bob Sanders and two journeyman Running Backs and another because of a transformative defense led by the best player of his generation at rush linebacker.   He played average to poorly in both Superbowl wins and horribly in the losses.  And coaches don't throw interceptions. 

 

That said, I agree Dungy had no killer instinct, but compared to Pagano he looks like Darth Vader.   Caldwell is out of the same school.  Too nice. 

Peyton also without any doubt outplayed Tom Brady three out of four times in the AFCCG plus put up one of the greatest AFCCG performances of all time to beat the Jets. It's easy to pick apart when any QB plays below par in the playoffs but if you are going to do it then at least give a nod to when said QB carried the load. 

[Nadine]

3 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

I don't think I have ever read a comment in this forum that even come close to the pile of horse dung you just spewed.

 

3 hours ago, 19colt said:

It should be deleted. 

When you see something that needs to be taken down, please report it rather than talking about how somebody who is not in the thread at the moment should do something about it

[crazycolt1]

3 hours ago, Nadine said:

 

When you see something that needs to be taken down, please report it rather than talking about how somebody who is not in the thread at the moment should do something about it

Sorry Nadine. I didn't think about in that point of view. I just reacted.

[Jaric]

I love when Jules drops truth bombs

[Myles]

8 hours ago, JPFolks said:

Peyton regularly underperformed in the playoffs.  Since he was the field general when he was out there, in charge of what play was enacted, all adjustments etc. (after a concept "suggestion" from Tom Moore) he bears 99% of the blame for his playoff results which were abysmal.   Sure, he won 2 Super Bowls.. one because of Bob Sanders and two journeyman Running Backs and another because of a transformative defense led by the best player of his generation at rush linebacker.   He played average to poorly in both Superbowl wins and horribly in the losses.  And coaches don't throw interceptions. 

 

That said, I agree Dungy had no killer instinct, but compared to Pagano he looks like Darth Vader.   Caldwell is out of the same school.  Too nice. 

The stats do not show the truth.

Those Colts teams had horrible defenses that Peyton made look better on paper.  

Through the regular season, Peyton would run the offense hard early and score quick and often. 

The opposing team would then give up on the running game and go to a pass only mode.  

Since teams could run at will on the Colts, this was a mistake.

It allowed Freeney to be a factor.   Freeney was not in on many running plays.   He's only had more than 30 tackles 2 times in his career.  

However in the playoffs, they are facing much better and balanced teams who would spend more time on a game plan to stop the Colts offense early.  

[Steamboat_Shaun]

9 hours ago, YourNextGM said:

With those qbs,  to finish 9-7 was a miracle.  And that defense was old and done

 

So you're basically willing to blame everyone except Gruden for his teams being trash?

[ThatOneColtFan]

Sure for a period of time he was being held back by us.

 

But at one point in time Polian built one of the best offenses in NFL history around him, and he blew it in the postseason.

[CF4L]

17 hours ago, AZColt11 said:

Well, if you are gonna prop Gruden for taking TB to the Superbowl, then you gotta slam him for NOT getting the Raiders there because they went to face his Bucs the year he left!  This often gets overlooked.

 

Either way IMHO Gruden would be a FAR CRY from what we have now.  I would welcome him to Indy.

 

 

He was fired after the season of the infamous Tuck Rule.  So I don't really hold the Raiders against him they were just beginning to come to form before he got the boot.

 

That being said his stint at Tampa was rather unimpressive which seems weird to say because I thought he was a good coach on the Raiders.

 

I think Gruden doesn't want the grind(no pun intended) of coaching again. He enjoys the cushy MNF job he has now and who can blame him?

[CF4L]

2 hours ago, ThatOneColtFan said:

Sure for a period of time he was being held back by us.

 

But at one point in time Polian built one of the best offenses in NFL history around him, and he blew it in the postseason.

 

 

You need a defense to win a championship.

[CF4L]

19 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

Dropping Caldwell wasn't really a knee jerk reaction IMO. Jimmy wanted to go in a totally different direction with Luck being drafted. Letting Manning go was more of looking into the future than dissing on Manning. No one knew if Manning was ever going to play again.

Just how has Jimmy been more patient with Grigson/Pagano over Polian/Mora/Dungy?  Grigson/Pagano have done better than Polian/Mora/Dungy in their first 4 plus years.

Calling something unstable before the final results are in is too premature.

 

Yet Denver and SF both wanted him so did Arizona, Miami, Tennessee and Seattle so yes they knew he was going to play again now how good he would be is another story.

 

Look I get why Jim moved on he didn't believe Manning at his age was worth the investment he had to think of life after him coming sooner rather than later. 

 

However the optics of that decision at the moment don't look good right now if Luck wins an SB or even more this won't matter until then yes this will make some wonder(I personally think the Colts weren't going  to win another SB with Manning and at this rate barring major changes Luck either)