Should the Colts Trade 18th Pic to Denver?

[Superman]

9 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

+1 for me too.......

 

I don't want to drop 13 spots.

 

Honestly,   I don't want to drop more than 8 spots in any trade in any round.     1/4 of a round seems to be my personal limit for my willingness to move down.

 

I suppose it all depends on what the Colts are offered....   but I'd take a more cautious approach.

 

 

They'd have to sweeten that deal, IMO, and the best way to do that is a meaningful future pick. Even then, I wouldn't really like it. The Colts are picking sort of high in the first round, they should maximize their ability to get a really good player. 

 

If they have 5-6 guys grouped closely, I'd be fine with moving down 5-6 spots. 

[DarkHorse]

A little too far to drop for my taste how about we trade to the Vikings instead

[throwing BBZ]

3 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

And mayock says there are 12 interior d lineman worthy of a first round grade.     

 

 I always enjoy hearing Mayock do his job.

 And i`m quite sure he enjoys hearing himself too!
  Like his, You can plug Mewhort anywhere on the line!
  Considering how many Bombs there are year in and year out in the 1st 20 picks of the draft,
  I lean towards picks 20 to 50-60 being reasonably equal, with scheme fit and mad football desire being Most important.
 But of course, i certainly do like the idea of drafting ahead of the competition to get the guys WE like.
 Go Colts!
 

[ColtsBlueFL]

9 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 I always enjoy hearing Mayock do his job.

 And i`m quite sure he enjoys hearing himself too!
  Like his, You can plug Mewhort anywhere on the line!
  Considering how many Bombs there are year in and year out in the 1st 20 picks of the draft,
  I lean towards picks 20 to 50-60 being reasonably equal, with scheme fit and mad football desire being Most important.
 But of course, i certainly do like the idea of drafting ahead of the competition to get the guys WE like.
 Go Colts!
 

 

Direct quote from the one Gil Brandt :

 

 

“This is a draft that’s a Patriot draft,” Brandt told Patriots.com. “There’s not really many first-rounders. There’s a lot of guys that are in the category of 20 to 50. You don’t have 28 (true) first-rounders, so the (teams) who do their homework are going to do pretty well, because all these (players) look the same.”

[jskinnz]

10 hours ago, BlueShoe said:

 

Well one thing is for sure. You're not going to be making any decisions. The Colts front office has a team of people and on draft day they gather in what is called a War Room. This is headed by Ryan Grigson, Chuck Pagano, and Jim Irsay. Grigson is the General Manager and he has kept coach Pagano and Jim Irsay in the loop throughout the draft process. They go into the War room with an idea of different possible scenarios and countermeasures with how to react in certain situations. 

 

You see caller, we call this the NFL draft. The fans don't make the decisions. 

 

What a bizarre retort.  Just plain weird.

[BlueShoe]

5 minutes ago, jskinnz said:

 

What a bizarre retort.  Just plain weird.

 

Crazy, right?

[jvan1973]

32 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

Direct quote from the one Gil Brandt :

 

 

“This is a draft that’s a Patriot draft,” Brandt told Patriots.com. “There’s not really many first-rounders. There’s a lot of guys that are in the category of 20 to 50. You don’t have 28 (true) first-rounders, so the (teams) who do their homework are going to do pretty well, because all these (players) look the same.”

I'm guessing every team has done more homework than brandt or any other analyst 

[ColtsBlueFL]

18 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

I'm guessing every team has done more homework than brandt or any other analyst 

 

One scout vs. Brandt, I'll take you up on that.  And Gil set the standard for how to do it, and still does it as Senior Media Analyst at NFL.com and on SiriusxM NFL radio. He has attended all of the bowls, combine and most all pro days.

 

Kirwan goes to many of them too.

 

You can scroll through his body of work this year-

http://www.nfl.com/news/author?id=09000d5d80026e07

 

[BProland85]

Indy should be looking at any possible trade down scenarios that makes sense for them value wise. They only have 6 picks this year with plenty of areas still to fix. 

 

Id even like it if they played mind games with QB needy teams like Denver, The Jets, and the Bills in order to get the best deal possible. 

[jvan1973]

14 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

One scout vs. Brandt, I'll take you up on that.  And Gil set the standard for how to do it, and still does it as Senior Media Analyst at NFL.com and on SiriusxM NFL radio. He has attended all of the bowls, combine and most all pro days.

 

Kirwan goes to many of them too.

 

You can scroll through his body of work this year-

http://www.nfl.com/news/author?id=09000d5d80026e07

 

Teams have far more than one scout.  

[pgt_rob]

I wouldn't know if I would trade back from #18 honestly. It probably wouldn't give us much unless we traded to the bottom of the 1st. I think we should take advantage of getting our player at #18 rather than chance of dropping back. If we are looking to take a Center, I think Ryan Kelly could very well possibly go before our pick, you just never know. I think we need to quit messing around with our O-Line and get it stabilized. Kind of sucks to see a 1st rounder being spent on a Center but I think it needs to be done. We can get a pass rusher in the 2nd round possibly. Cody Whitehair and Taylor Decker will probably both be gone by our 2nd round pick. Which would leave us with not much of a pick for an offensive lineman. Pass Rusher in the 1st round could possibly be too risky for us in my opinion. Ryan Kelly with our 1st and pass rusher with our 2nd would be the way to go in my opinion.

[loudnproudcolt]

From everything I have read, after about the 15th pick, many feel picks 16 all the way up to around 48 are the same guy as far as grades. Not a lot of difference, unless someone falls or you have fallen in love with someone. I would love us to do it. It is a 300 point difference, which means we switch first rounders and get their second and their fourth at least and it should be more. Draft points in the first round are only guidelines due to how badly teams want to move up. The second and fourth is fair compensation. I would want more. Denvers fourth is all the way at 136,  so with the second and fourth and first round swap, it comes out 323 points I believe. Not enough in my book for a 300 pt. difference in the first round. I would ask in addition for swapping firsts, their second, fourth and fifth which is actually fair, or the first round switch, , their second, and a third next year. Anyone who wants to move up to that position, especially for a QB has to pay a premium, and I would love the extra picks!

 

This way we have 7 draft picks, and two in the second, and next year will have 8 and at least one more pick as we will get at least one high comp for Fleener, and possibly a 6 or 7 for Freeman and Lowery leaving. Next year with picks going in would be great!

[loudnproudcolt]

Kelly at 31 and then Whitehair  or another Guard at our 2nd round pick, and then focus the rest on defense. We could come out with Kelly, Whitehair, and a quality safety from Denvers 2nd. I would love those as our first three picks. Please let us trade with Denver, and let Paxton Lynch fall to 18.

[ColtsBlueFL]

1 hour ago, jvan1973 said:

Teams have far more than one scout.  

 

I'll bet Gil is likely still better at it than just about any of them.  Being alone doesn't diminish his ability to make a determination on those top draft picks, all of whom he has seem workout, and give them a proper grade. 

 

I'll stand behind my position and his statements, to which you have offered no proof showing otherwise.

 

The guy (Gil Brandt) is THE guy, when it comes to scouting.  Period.  Go look him up...

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/draft/2015/04/29/gil-brandt-remains-key-part-of-the-nfl-draft-process/26596831/

 

http://silverandblueblood.com/gil-brandt-super-scout#axzz45vSl2f8p

 

 

 

[jvan1973]

25 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

I'll bet Gil is likely still better at it than just about any of them.  Being alone doesn't diminish his ability to make a determination on those top draft picks, all of whom he has seem workout, and give them a proper grade. 

 

I'll stand behind my position and his statements, to which you have offered no proof showing otherwise.

 

The guy (Gil Brandt) is THE guy, when it comes to scouting.  Period.  Go look him up...

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/draft/2015/04/29/gil-brandt-remains-key-part-of-the-nfl-draft-process/26596831/

 

http://silverandblueblood.com/gil-brandt-super-scout#axzz45vSl2f8p

 

 

 

Why is he not employed by an NFL team?  This,   super scout could be making millions.       

 

P.s. I know who gill brandt is.  He is retired from his original occupation.   There is no way he is putting in the hours necessary to scout every player in the draft,    why would he?

[Archer]

I'd do this in a heartbeat. 

[Gavin]

At the absolute earliest I would start trying to trade down till pick 48 and accumulate picks. We can get a game wrecker at 18

[esmort]

21 minutes ago, Gavin said:

At the absolute earliest I would start trying to trade down till pick 48 and accumulate picks. We can get a game wrecker at 18

 

What game wrecker you think will be there at 18?  There are some guys who i kinda like and would be OK with us taking there,  but no one I am in love with or think are definitely game changers.  I would just as soon Grigson trade down and "fish with a net". 

[Gavin]

2 hours ago, esmort said:

 

What game wrecker you think will be there at 18?  There are some guys who i kinda like and would be OK with us taking there,  but no one I am in love with or think are definitely game changers.  I would just as soon Grigson trade down and "fish with a net". 

Floyd

Nkemdiche

Billings could be

 

 

The reality is most draft picks don't play like all pros in year one and in quite a few instances not even in year two. Just  look up the first year production of the top 20 pass rushers of all time and you would be shocked at how little most of them produced year 1 but I think Leonard Floyd would payoff huge for us 18 within 2 years

[ColtsBlueFL]

6 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

Why is he not employed by an NFL team?  This,   super scout could be making millions.       

 

P.s. I know who gill brandt is.  He is retired from his original occupation.   There is no way he is putting in the hours necessary to scout every player in the draft,    why would he?

 

Because he says, and I quote- "Once a scout, always a scout."

 

And as Senior Media analyst at NFL.com, he reports on all of the pro days.  I do not know if he makes every one in person or not but I do know that the NFL sends him to every one physically possible, especially the higher graded players. And he scouts and reports on each visit, including bowl games etc.

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000630816/article/2016-pro-days-schedule

 

And finally, he often is on NFL Radio on Sirius XM radio, the Late Hits program from 7:00 pm to 11;00 pm along with Alex Marvez.  When he is not on that show, Bill Polian often is in his place.

 

 

 

[jvan1973]

2 hours ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

Because he says, and I quote- "Once a scout, always a scout."

 

And as Senior Media analyst at NFL.com, he reports on all of the pro days.  I do not know if he makes every one in person or not but I do know that the NFL sends him to every one physically possible, especially the higher graded players. And he scouts and reports on each visit, including bowl games etc.

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000630816/article/2016-pro-days-schedule

 

And finally, he often is on NFL Radio on Sirius XM radio, the Late Hits program from 7:00 pm to 11;00 pm along with Alex Marvez.  When he is not on that show, Bill Polian often is in his place.

 

 

 

The guy said Manziel was the number 1 player in the 14 draft.     

[jvan1973]

5 hours ago, esmort said:

 

What game wrecker you think will be there at 18?  There are some guys who i kinda like and would be OK with us taking there,  but no one I am in love with or think are definitely game changers.  I would just as soon Grigson trade down and "fish with a net". 

Pretty tough to answer until draft day

[ColtsBlueFL]

12 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

The guy said Manziel was the number 1 player in the 14 draft.     

 

And Khalil Mack #2.  Everybody has a miss.  Manzeil had all the tools, but his weaknesses were size, scrambles to early, and loved the celebrity lifestyle (parties).  Manzeil conned GM's on interviews, that is why teams and GM's did take him in round 1 when his party livelihood red flagged him. Most every site had him in round 1 or 2.  Nobody could tell what a colossal knucklehead he would be.  At least Gordon didn't con people, he had talent, and put it to use. But screwed it up off the field.  Manzeil had talent, did not put it to use, took his cash and partied. Then convinced GM's he would fly right, only to get caught again and again.  That was not a talent scouting deficiency by  Brandt, that was a character issue assessment error by Brandt; and many other including the team/GM that traded up to get him in round 1. And Gil owns up to Manzeil being a bust, but stands by his scouting assessment and the Psych test results.

 

http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/dallas-cowboys/cowboys/2016/02/02/gil-brandt-manziels-got-tools-good-nfl-quarterback-taking-big-chance

[southwest1]

15 hours ago, BrentMc11 said:

Stay the course....unless there is a deal we cannot pass up.....easy answer.

Exactly Brent. If our scouting team has thoroughly narrowed it down to the players we are interested in, has a firm grasp of their work ethic & character, & knows precisely what positions of need to fill this year, there is no need to jump around.

 

The only time a GM & owner ever makes a move is for a QB, a left tackle, or a shutdown corner that puts your team 1 step closer to a championship. 

 

On a rare occasion, you might massage the draft to grab an elite pass rusher, but that's only because the Robert Mathis's & Lawrence Taylor's of the world don't grow on trees. 

[jvan1973]

39 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

And Khalil Mack #2.  Everybody has a miss.  Manzeil had all the tools, but his weaknesses were size, scrambles to early, and loved the celebrity lifestyle (parties).  Manzeil conned GM's on interviews, that is why teams and GM's did take him in round 1 when his party livelihood red flagged him. Most every site had him in round 1 or 2.  Nobody could tell what a colossal knucklehead he would be.  At least Gordon didn't con people, he had talent, and put it to use. But screwed it up off the field.  Manzeil had talent, did not put it to use, took his cash and partied. Then convinced GM's he would fly right, only to get caught again and again.  That was not a talent scouting deficiency by  Brandt, that was a character issue assessment error by Brandt; and many other including the team/GM that traded up to get him in round 1. And Gil owns up to Manzeil being a bust, but stands by his scouting assessment and the Psych test results.

 

http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/dallas-cowboys/cowboys/2016/02/02/gil-brandt-manziels-got-tools-good-nfl-quarterback-taking-big-chance

Johnny.  Number  1 overall?  Really?  His size alone should have told him different.    I think the years are catching up to him

[southwest1]

43 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

And Khalil Mack #2.  Everybody has a miss.  Manzeil had all the tools, but his weaknesses were size, scrambles to early, and loved the celebrity lifestyle (parties).  Manzeil conned GM's on interviews, that is why teams and GM's did take him in round 1 when his party livelihood red flagged him. Most every site had him in round 1 or 2.  Nobody could tell what a colossal knucklehead he would be.  At least Gordon didn't con people, he had talent, and put it to use. But screwed it up off the field.  Manzeil had talent, did not put it to use, took his cash and partied. Then convinced GM's he would fly right, only to get caught again and again.  That was not a talent scouting deficiency by  Brandt, that was a character issue assessment error by Brandt; and many other including the team/GM that traded up to get him in round 1. And Gil owns up to Manzeil being a bust, but stands by his scouting assessment and the Psych test results.

 

http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/dallas-cowboys/cowboys/2016/02/02/gil-brandt-manziels-got-tools-good-nfl-quarterback-taking-big-chance

I thought Johnny Football had bad footwork in college & he relied on his arm strength too much vs pinpoint accuracy which is often a by product of a QB's hips, lower body, & feet placement. 

 

But, I do agree with you completely that no GM or scout knew how foolish Manziel would be when it came to drinking & having a good time. I always worry about QBs that are treated like Gods in college because in the NFL the throwing lanes are smaller, LBs can close distance in an instant, & every week all your opponents are tough. Translation: You can't skip film study sessions in the pros because even lousy teams can whip your butt any given Sunday. 

[ColtsBlueFL]

5 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

Johnny.  Number  1 overall?  Really?  His size alone should have told him different.    I think the years are catching up to him

 

Size stopped mattering as much once Drew Brees and Russell Wilson smashed that barrier.  I feel Johnny's sandlot  style of QB play put him in round 2, but I'm not an evaluator.  Just a fan always trying to learn how 'they' do it.  He missed, and so did a lot of people on Manzeil.  But Gil's record over many deacdes speaks for itself.

 

It wasn't size that doomed Manzeil, it was his lack of effort anywhere near a Browns facility or any NFL stadium.

 

Besides, I feel every year that way too much hype and hope is heaped on the QB talent in the draft in general.  Where are E.J. Manuel, Geno Smith, Brandon Weeden, Colin Kaepernick, Garret Grayson, Mike Glennon, Sean Mannion, Jimmy Garoppolo, Nick Foles, and RG III', and so many others today?

 

[Defjamz26]

19 hours ago, pgt_rob said:

I wouldn't know if I would trade back from #18 honestly. It probably wouldn't give us much unless we traded to the bottom of the 1st. I think we should take advantage of getting our player at #18 rather than chance of dropping back. If we are looking to take a Center, I think Ryan Kelly could very well possibly go before our pick, you just never know. I think we need to quit messing around with our O-Line and get it stabilized. Kind of sucks to see a 1st rounder being spent on a Center but I think it needs to be done. We can get a pass rusher in the 2nd round possibly. Cody Whitehair and Taylor Decker will probably both be gone by our 2nd round pick. Which would leave us with not much of a pick for an offensive lineman. Pass Rusher in the 1st round could possibly be too risky for us in my opinion. Ryan Kelly with our 1st and pass rusher with our 2nd would be the way to go in my opinion.

If it's for a QB we could probably get a future first out of Denver. They'd be going from 30 to 18. That's 12 spots. Also remember that the Jets are also probably in the QB market. So you have to offer the best deal possible. And Lynch is similar in what they had with Osweiler, but he's got a bigger arm, is athletic, and has good touch.

 

Its either a future 1st or their 2nd and 3rd IMO. 

[ColtsBlueFL]

On 4/15/2016 at 11:00 PM, wig said:

Depending on who's left on whether or not I take it. If BPA happens to hit a need I'll take it. If not, move back. 

 

My thoughts exactly.  I would probably try to negotiate with John Elway like this-

 

"John I'll agree in principal to a deal to put you in our #18 slot, but under two conditions.

 

1. We swap firsts, and you also give us your second and fourth (I'd settle for the 5th if John protests greatly) round draft picks as well.

 

2. Most important, if we feel an exceptionally elite candidate has fallen down the board and landed in our lap at #18, we'll have the right to decline to fulfill the deal in principal and take 'that elite BPA guy'.

 

John, If you agree to these terms, give us a ring in our draft room immediately after the Falcons make their selection and we'll talk from there.  By the same token, if the 'guy' you are targeting (which you do not have to name) gets pulled from the board before our pick, give us a courtesy ring and tell us the deal is off so we may pursue taking our pick  or going with our trade plan B and beyond."