Colts recruiting ex Rams fans

[The Old Crow]

41 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

In what way is that untrue?

 

It isn't untrue, it's dead true. My point is don't think these teams are permanent in your city, because they are not. Like the MLB anti-trust exemption, there should be some caveat to protect communities and fans. This isn't the 50's when these owners had to move because of bankruptcy, or something. These owners are making incredible profits, but their greed is insatiable. They leave these communities with large bills on the stadiums they put up for them, then left. 

[Superman]

1 hour ago, The Old Crow said:

 

It isn't untrue, it's dead true. My point is don't think these teams are permanent in your city, because they are not. Like the MLB anti-trust exemption, there should be some caveat to protect communities and fans. This isn't the 50's when these owners had to move because of bankruptcy, or something. These owners are making incredible profits, but their greed is insatiable. They leave these communities with large bills on the stadiums they put up for them, then left. 

 

The caveat is 'don't build stadiums for teams.' No one forced the city to build the Dome. They wanted the Rams, so they paid for and built a stadium in exchange for a 30 year lease with team options. If they didn't want to build a stadium, they didn't have to, but then they wouldn't have had a team for the last 20 years.

[Tsarquise]

3 hours ago, The Old Crow said:

 

" This isn't your team, your cities team, this is my team, my families team." 

 

Wow, did he really say that?

[The Old Crow]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

The caveat is 'don't build stadiums for teams.' No one forced the city to build the Dome. They wanted the Rams, so they paid for and built a stadium in exchange for a 30 year lease with team options. If they didn't want to build a stadium, they didn't have to, but then they wouldn't have had a team for the last 20 years.

 

I know, but when is enough with these owners ? You always see how cheesy these NFL commercials are about so-called " giving back to the community, by the league ." Yet , they profit tremendously from the community, then roll to the next better deal . You are right, if you don't build the stadium they want, it's adios. Our city knows that only too well. 

[The Old Crow]

33 minutes ago, Tsarquise said:

Wow, did he really say that?

 

Unfortunately, he did. Don't get me wrong, our legislators goofed up with the eminent domain, and not building a stadium. However, those kind of comments, along with others, helped poison the relationship between the owner , and the politicians and fans. 

 

It it was a surreal situation. It started almost immediately. Five games into the 1972 season, Don McCafferty was fired after winning the SB the year before. Unitas was traded without letting him know beforehand , as he had been promised. The 75-77 teams were dismantled as they didn't want to pay the increased salaries. The team was being shopped around years before they actually left to Charlotte, Phoenix, and Jacksonville. Jacksonville actually had a welcoming party ! 

 

I think the comments referenced were when he got back from Phoenix, denied he was there, then railed against the reporters who followed him there. I think some of that press conference is detailed in ESPN's 30 for 30 special, " The Band that wouldn't die." He sent poor Jim to Indy, and forgot he sent him there. 

 

Anyway, 32 years have passed and things have worked out for Indy and Baltimore. Modell's was a sad story of his own financial incompetence , and lack of a new stadium, that unfairly cost the city of Cleveland. They should have never lost their team, but fortunately they got a team back three years later, with legacy intact. Unfortunately, things have never been the same. 

 

Now we have three owners jockeying for a new city and stadium. To show you how ironic it is, the guy that needed the stadium the worst, Davis in Oakland, is the guy left out in the cold. But that's alright, Jerry-boy and Goddell are ordering beer and wine in the Azalea Room after they cleaned up again with Kroenke !  

[Tsarquise]

49 minutes ago, The Old Crow said:

 

I know, but when is enough with these owners ? You always see how cheesy these NFL commercials are about so-called " giving back to the community, by the league ." Yet , they profit tremendously from the community, then roll to the next better deal . You are right, if you don't build the stadium they want, it's adios. Our city knows that only too well. 

There should be more than money involved in these type of decisions. 

[SkyBane]

18 minutes ago, Tsarquise said:

There should be more than money involved in these type of decisions. 

Welcome to modern America. You want to be treated like a human being? Let's see those dollah dollah bills yall.

[Tsarquise]

9 minutes ago, SkyBane said:

Welcome to modern America. You want to be treated like a human being? Let's see those dollah dollah bills yall.

With out the feelings and the emotions, sports just aren't as entertaining. If teams are playing musical chairs, no one will really have a rooting interest; at least not as many. 

[SkyBane]

Just now, Tsarquise said:

With out the feelings and the emotions, sports just aren't as entertaining. If teams are playing musical chairs, no one will really have a rooting interest; at least not as many. 

Doesn't matter as long as networks and advertisers keep shelling out the money for broadcasts. That's where the real money is made. Unless you're a major corporation, you don't matter in this country. Capitalism has been dead for a solid decade now, and Corportism just wears its corpse like suit.

[southwest1]

On January 14, 2016 at 8:48 AM, Jay Kirk said:

Why do we feel a need to recruit fans ? Let the product on the field do that.

I read ya Jay & you're not wrong, but the way I look at it, fan expansion across this nation or this blue planet for the blue horseshoe is never a bad thing brother. 

On January 14, 2016 at 9:40 AM, ColtRider said:

 

Time to take the plunge, OC!  

TOC is a good guy CR. If it takes him 13 years to pick another team besides the Ravens to follow regularly, I'm ok with that. SW1 has been known to procrastinate & drag my feet myself. LOL! Oh not on my affection for the Colts by any means just other stuff. I'm just glad TOC contributes frequently here. He knows his football & the history of this league very well. 

On January 14, 2016 at 3:15 PM, Jim H. said:

If they can be "recruited" - they aren't "fans."

True, but my only real stipulation is fans who love the Cowboys. What the hades for? Losing consistently? In all seriousness, I'm never turning away new fans to the INDY family like ever. The more the merrier baby. Keep them coming.

On January 15, 2016 at 1:48 PM, ColtRider said:

 

Think you hit this on the proverbial head. Seems as though we have some interested Rams fans looking in our direction. I'd welcome each & every one to the Colts family with open arms. And, how could you not argue that point with ...

 

A great city. A great franchise & owner that WANTS to win along with the BEST fans in the NFL. A forum that's dedicated to every one of these causes. If it sounds like I'm trying to beat our drum? ...

 

Yeah, that's what I'm doing. 

Well said CR. I can't argue with a single word you uttered my man. Love the city, the owner, the team, & the fans. Plus, any franchise who accepts a Badger State resident into INDY with open arms simply because I don't blindly support the GB Packers is automatically awesome to me. Just saying. Thank you. 

[southwest1]

16 minutes ago, SkyBane said:

Doesn't matter as long as networks and advertisers keep shelling out the money for broadcasts. That's where the real money is made. Unless you're a major corporation, you don't matter in this country. Capitalism has been dead for a solid decade now, and Corportism just wears its corpse like suit.

Ah huh. Sports & entertainment are all driven by corporations with all it's tentacles centered around money broadcast rights, copyright, & anti-trademark infringement in this nation anyway. Well said SkyBane. 

[Synthetic]

On 1/14/2016 at 8:17 AM, NBColtsFanatic said:

California has too many sports teams. I'm still waiting on the day Indiana gets an MLB team, no offense to the Indians. 

Chargers

Rams

Raiders

49'ers 

---

Lakers

Kings

Warriors

Clippers

---

(don't really follow baseball) but certainly one of the teams can move to Indy

 

 

This is because California has such a market with major cities. San Fran, L.A, and San Diego are major big city markets; outside Sacramento, Oakland and other big cities that can handle it. 

[The Old Crow]

56 minutes ago, Tsarquise said:

There should be more than money involved in these type of decisions. 

I agree. I wonder how long it will take for these guys to get their mitts on fantasy football ?

[Jay Kirk]

24 minutes ago, southwest1 said:

I read ya Jay & you're not wrong, but the way I look at it, fan expansion across this nation or this blue planet for the blue horseshoe is never a bad thing brother. 

TOC is a good guy CR. If it takes him 13 years to pick another team besides the Ravens to follow regularly, I'm ok with that. SW1 has been known to procrastinate & drag my feet myself. LOL! Oh not on my affection for the Colts by any means just other stuff. I'm just glad TOC contributes frequently here. He knows his football & the history of this league very well. 

True, but my only real stipulation is fans who love the Cowboys. What the hades for? Losing consistently? In all seriousness, I'm never turning away new fans to the INDY family like ever. The more the merrier baby. Keep them coming.

Well said CR. I can't argue with a single word you uttered my man. Love the city, the owner, the team, & the fans. Plus, any franchise who accepts a Badger State resident into INDY with open arms simply because I don't blindly support the GB Packers is automatically awesome to me. Just saying. Thank you. 

No Brother its not , however my point is do we need to do this , or will it just be natural . There are many St Louis Cardinal fans here. So its not out of the spectrum. Or is this about TV and revenue ?

 

[SkyBane]

1 minute ago, southwest1 said:

Ah huh. Sports & entertainment are all driven by corporations with all it's tentacles centered around money broadcast rights, copyright, & anti-trademark infringement in this nation anyway. Well said SkyBane. 

Trademark law is where they get you. It's expansion and loose regulation (largely driven by Disney in their efforts to keep Walt's work from going public domain) has basically given the entertainment industry carte blanche over anything even remotely profitable. While artists can still make their coin, it's largely at the heel of publishing giants (Disney, Sony, Electronic Arts, etc.), and it's these publishing giants who have criminalized so much as ripping a CD to your harddrive for personal use, out of fear of file sharing.

 

The NFL is even more archaic in it's ownership hawking over IP rights, failing to even have an online presence to combat the illegal streaming that occurs, resorting to litigation for damn near everything. At least it's not the NCAA though, they actually claim ownership over the likenesses of their players and ensure none of them see a dime of sales made. It's borderline indenturing the way college athletes are treated.

 

Anyways I've probably said too much for this board lol.

[Synthetic]

 

2 minutes ago, Jay Kirk said:

No Brother its not , however my point is do we need to do this , or will it just be natural . There are many St Louis Cardinal fans here. So its not out of the spectrum. Or is this about TV and revenue ?

 

 

I'm figuring that most St Louis sports fans might not be that phased over the Rams leaving since the Cardinals have recently won a World Series. I don't live in New Orleans, but I can tell you, not many people really care about the Pelicans. 

 

If the NFL or the Rams owner is thinking being in LA is going to boost TV revenue, they're sadly very wrong about that. 

 

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-rams-wont-get-as-much-from-la-as-the-lakers-and-dodgers-do/

 

 

[Jay Kirk]

Just now, Bogie said:

 

 

I'm figuring that most St Louis sports fans might not be that phased over the Rams leaving since the Cardinals have recently won a World Series. I don't live in New Orleans, but I can tell you, not many people really care about the Pelicans. 

 

If the NFL or the Rams owner is thinking being in LA is going to boost TV revenue, they're sadly very wrong about that. 

 

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-rams-wont-get-as-much-from-la-as-the-lakers-and-dodgers-do/

 

 

True lol but I meant us recruiting Rams fans.

[southwest1]

36 minutes ago, Jay Kirk said:

No Brother its not , however my point is do we need to do this , or will it just be natural . There are many St Louis Cardinal fans here. So its not out of the spectrum. Or is this about TV and revenue ?

 

I get what you're saying. Fans tend to trickle toward annual division winners & regular playoff contenders so it's not like INDY needs to go looking for displaced or unsatisfied fans by & large. 

 

Sure fan loyalty & TV ratings based on a team's viewership are 2 totally different questions. No argument there. Personally, I think all our coordinator changes this season is a good thing because it shakes our organization up & forces our franchise to adapt as our AFC South competition has got better in recent years. It's good to feel a like scared that our dominance in this division was beginning to weaken & our coaching staff took appropriate actions to alter things at the DC spot, QB coach spot, & o-line spot. We can never get complacent or assume we will always be in the post season.  

 

Yeah, I know I deplored the hire of Joe Phil-bin & I'm still not doing cart wheels over it, but if Luck has a clean pocket & Gore can reach the 2nd level before he is even touched, I will own it & admit I was wrong. I'm wrong a lot, but that doesn't phase me at all as long as INDY wins & they prove to me that our team can hang with the Steelers & the Pats in December when it really counts.  

 

Maybe INDY should ask The Old Crow, John Harbaugh, & Joe Flacco for advice since they usually give Bill, Tommy, & NE fits in the Playoffs. SW1 ain't too proud to beg man. LOL! Besides, I admire Baltimore as a squad & would gladly help them out with a rival if necessary. I have no problems with that at all. Why? Because they are an honorable franchise who wins & loses games the right way IMO. 

[The Old Crow]

27 minutes ago, southwest1 said:

I get what you're saying. Fans tend to trickle toward annual division winners & regular playoff contenders so it's not like INDY needs to go looking for displaced or unsatisfied fans by & large. 

 

Sure fan loyalty & TV ratings based on a team's viewership are 2 totally different questions. No argument there. Personally, I think all our coordinator changes this season is a good thing because it shakes our organization up & forces our franchise to adapt as our AFC South competition has got better in recent years. It's good to feel a like scared that our dominance in this division was beginning to weaken & our coaching staff took appropriate actions to alter things at the DC spot, QB coach spot, & o-line spot. We can never get complacent or assume we will always be in the post season.  

 

Yeah, I know I deplored the hire of Joe Phil-bin & I'm still not doing cart wheels over it, but if Luck has a clean pocket & Gore can reach the 2nd level before he is even touched, I will own it & admit I was wrong. I'm wrong a lot, but that doesn't phase me at all as long as INDY wins & they prove to me that our team can hang with the Steelers & the Pats in December when it really counts.  

 

Maybe INDY should ask The Old Crow, John Harbaugh, & Joe Flacco for advice since they usually give Bill, Tommy, & NE fits in the Playoffs. SW1 ain't too proud to beg man. LOL! Besides, I admire Baltimore as a squad & would gladly help them out with a rival if necessary. I have no problems with that at all. Why? Because they are an honorable franchise who wins & lohonomes the right way IMO. 

I wish I knew all the answers SW. All I can tell you is Ozzie and Harbaugh try to put together rosters that can beat NE and Pittsburgh. Sometimes we win, sometimes we lose, but you always want to leave them with a bloody nose. If you don't , Brady tries to kick you like he did with Ed Reed , or Tomlin trips you ! Lol 

[southwest1]

2 hours ago, The Old Crow said:

I wish I knew all the answers SW. All I can tell you is Ozzie and Harbaugh try to put together rosters that can beat NE and Pittsburgh. Sometimes we win, sometimes we lose, but you always want to leave them with a bloody nose. If you don't , Brady tries to kick you like he did with Ed Reed , or Tomlin trips you ! Lol 

Bah Ha! Ha! I love your answer man. Very funny! I knew there was a reason I liked you TOC. You're alright man. If anybody says anything different, have them talk to me & I'll set em straight. 

 

The Ravens almost always play smash mouth, grid it out, bloody & battered football & I always enjoy watching it. John & Ozzie will right your franchise ship just give them time. They know what they are doing. Trust me. 

[Superman]

5 hours ago, The Old Crow said:

 

I know, but when is enough with these owners ? You always see how cheesy these NFL commercials are about so-called " giving back to the community, by the league ." Yet , they profit tremendously from the community, then roll to the next better deal . You are right, if you don't build the stadium they want, it's adios. Our city knows that only too well. 

 

I don't feel sorry for Baltimore, and never did. Between eminent domain and then taking the Browns (and that's after courting the Rams from LA, which the league blocked), the city of Baltimore has been on the opposite end of the table more than enough.

 

As for the owners getting enough, it's a business. That should answer that sufficiently.

 

The teams do give back to the community. That doesn't mean they have to share ownership of their business with the community. That's one of the reasons LA struggled to get a stadium deal, because AEG was driving the bus for so long, but wanted a share of whatever team was going to come, and no team was going to do that. 

 

What's different about sports teams is that people are fans. It's emotional. It's not just about the money, although that's a factor as well, but you're paying for a product because you want to experience the product. Not because you expect to get a return on your money. When a company decides to move it's manufacturing to a state or city in exchange for tax breaks and other considerations, that costs the taxpayer. If that company decides to move 20 years later, that's up to the company. People in the local area might be upset, but at the end of the day, it's business. The owner's obligation is to the company, not the locals.

[Superman]

6 hours ago, Tsarquise said:

Wow, did he really say that?

 

Yeah, he said that a few weeks after Baltimore had passed a bill to take control of his team. He continued with 'I paid for it and I earned it.' 

[Jules]

When do they join up here and help over flow the forum?

 

 

[RockThatBlue]

Welcome to all the former rams fans joining colts nation. I have no problem with expanding the fan base. Go colts!

[Jay Kirk]

8 hours ago, southwest1 said:

I get what you're saying. Fans tend to trickle toward annual division winners & regular playoff contenders so it's not like INDY needs to go looking for displaced or unsatisfied fans by & large. 

 

Sure fan loyalty & TV ratings based on a team's viewership are 2 totally different questions. No argument there. Personally, I think all our coordinator changes this season is a good thing because it shakes our organization up & forces our franchise to adapt as our AFC South competition has got better in recent years. It's good to feel a like scared that our dominance in this division was beginning to weaken & our coaching staff took appropriate actions to alter things at the DC spot, QB coach spot, & o-line spot. We can never get complacent or assume we will always be in the post season.  

 

Yeah, I know I deplored the hire of Joe Phil-bin & I'm still not doing cart wheels over it, but if Luck has a clean pocket & Gore can reach the 2nd level before he is even touched, I will own it & admit I was wrong. I'm wrong a lot, but that doesn't phase me at all as long as INDY wins & they prove to me that our team can hang with the Steelers & the Pats in December when it really counts.  

 

Maybe INDY should ask The Old Crow, John Harbaugh, & Joe Flacco for advice since they usually give Bill, Tommy, & NE fits in the Playoffs. SW1 ain't too proud to beg man. LOL! Besides, I admire Baltimore as a squad & would gladly help them out with a rival if necessary. I have no problems with that at all. Why? Because they are an honorable franchise who wins & loses games the right way IMO. 

Lol Brother without some upgrade in personnel , Phil-bin  cant fix the OL. 

[The Old Crow]

6 hours ago, southwest1 said:

Bah Ha! Ha! I love your answer man. Very funny! I knew there was a reason I liked you TOC. You're alright man. If anybody says anything different, have them talk to me & I'll set em straight. 

 

The Ravens almost always play smash mouth, grid it out, bloody & battered football & I always enjoy watching it. John & Ozzie will right your franchise ship just give them time. They know what they are doing. Trust me. 

 

Thanks SW. People need to remember , I still have a warm place in my heart for the horseshoe. 

[The Old Crow]

6 hours ago, Superman said:

 

I don't feel sorry for Baltimore, and never did. Between eminent domain and then taking the Browns (and that's after courting the Rams from LA, which the league blocked), the city of Baltimore has been on the opposite end of the table more than enough.

 

As for the owners getting enough, it's a business. That should answer that sufficiently.

 

The teams do give back to the community. That doesn't mean they have to share ownership of their business with the community. That's one of the reasons LA struggled to get a stadium deal, because AEG was driving the bus for so long, but wanted a share of whatever team was going to come, and no team was going to do that. 

 

What's different about sports teams is that people are fans. It's emotional. It's not just about the money, although that's a factor as well, but you're paying for a product because you want to experience the product. Not because you expect to get a return on your money. When a company decides to move it's manufacturing to a state or city in exchange for tax breaks and other considerations, that costs the taxpayer. If that company decides to move 20 years later, that's up to the company. People in the local area might be upset, but at the end of the day, it's business. The owner's obligation is to the company, not the locals.

 

There is really no reason to feel sorry for Baltimore. Things happen for a reason, and we've had a great 20 year run with the Ravens. Indianapolis would have gotten a team from somewhere, even if the Colts have stayed, or gotten an expansion team. You guys have proven to be a good NFL city, built two stadiums, and have business oriented politicians. I fully understand it's a business, but the excessive greed , and lack of regard for the fans that support these teams, is depressing. 

 

Once Baltimore lost the team, they should have immediately gotten an expansion team like Cleveland did three years later, but Cooke and Taglibue , blocked this. They tried to turn Baltimore into a region of the Washington Redskins when people were hurting after the move. Someone in your front office is doing the same thing to St. Louis , trying to turn St. Louis into a region of the Indianapolis Colts, when fans there are still hurting, and working through their emotions. Again, it's all about money and regional rights, and they couldn't even wait a month ! The tweets were out within days, " just saying." 

 

 

[The Old Crow]

6 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Yeah, he said that a few weeks after Baltimore had passed a bill to take control of his team. He continued with 'I paid for it and I earned it.' 

 

Part of that is true, as he said this when he moved to Indy. However, he said this also before the move and eminent domain. He certainly paid for it , and earned it, but he put a shoddy product out for the most part in Baltimore and Indy. But like most of the modern day owners, he was a good businessman. That is the most positive thing I can say about him, along with the fact that he took care of his family, unlike Carroll Rosenbloom . That is a sad story. 

[crazycolt1]

30 minutes ago, The Old Crow said:

 

There is really no reason to feel sorry for Baltimore. Things happen for a reason, and we've had a great 20 year run with the Ravens. Indianapolis would have gotten a team from somewhere, even if the Colts have stayed, or gotten an expansion team. You guys have proven to be a good NFL city, built two stadiums, and have business oriented politicians. I fully understand it's a business, but the excessive greed , and lack of regard for the fans that support these teams, is depressing. 

 

Once Baltimore lost the team, they should have immediately gotten an expansion team like Cleveland did three years later, but Cooke and Taglibue , blocked this. They tried to turn Baltimore into a region of the Washington Redskins when people were hurting after the move. Someone in your front office is doing the same thing to St. Louis , trying to turn St. Louis into a region of the Indianapolis Colts, when fans there are still hurting, and working through their emotions. Again, it's all about money and regional rights, and they couldn't even wait a month ! The tweets were out within days, " just saying." 

 

 

The only reason the Browns moved to Baltimore is because they finally decided to build a stadium and the tax breaks. One of the main problems between the two teams moving is the Browns had a very strong fan base and supported that team win or lose. Baltimore not so much.

[The Old Crow]

6 hours ago, RockThatBlue said:

Welcome to all the former rams fans joining colts nation. I have no problem with expanding the fan base. Go colts!

 

I would say this to the St. Louis fans. If you want to join another team like the Colts, great, the team is good, the fans friendly, and it's a nice city. 

 

But, if you our a St. Louis native, and want a team back in your city, submitting to regional rule from another NFL town is the worst thing you can do. If Jim Irsay thinks that St. Louis is in his team's regional rights, he will fight you tooth and nail if you try to get another team. The NFL will be shoving Colt games down your throat whether you want them or not, in your market. This happened in Baltimore with the Redskins, and kept football out for 12 years. 

 

This is is not a knock on the Colts or Irsay, but as Superman says, it's brutal business. I'm an Orioles fan and I watched Peter Angelos do this to DC, and I didn't like it. When the Expo's came to DC, he got baseball to turn most of the Nationals broadcasting rights to the Orioles, which is the MASN network. Just pointing out some of the grim realities of being a regional outpost city of another team. If you want to join a team, and don't care if your city has a team, the Colts are a good choice. 

[The Old Crow]

8 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

The only reason the Browns moved to Baltimore is because they finally decided to build a stadium and the tax breaks. One of the main problems between the two teams moving is the Browns had a very strong fan base and supported that team win or lose. Baltimore not so much.

 

There is no doubt no  team would have come if we didn't have a lucrative stadium deal on the table. I think the majority of the population in Baltimore felt bad about what happened to Cleveland. They certainly didn't deserve to lose their team. I would disagree about the fan base in respect to the Browns were still coming off some of the good Kosar years, and attendance  had not yet plummeted to the point of the 83 Colts. Both are proven , good fan bases in their cities. Where I give Cleveland city leaders ,and their fans total credit, is fighting tooth and nail to keep their colors, logos, and history. Modell wanted to be the Baltimore Browns, but thank god that never happened. Cleveland succeeded where Baltimore failed, and I'm glad, because I wouldn't want Jim Brown or Otto Graham in my record books. They accomplished things in another city, which I was not part of. I feel the same way about St Louis Browns records mixed in with the Orioles. As far as I'm concerned, the O's started in 1954 . 

[tag60]

On 1/15/2016 at 0:46 PM, RecoveringRam said:

For some reason there is a lot of bad blood between Rams fans and the chiefs. Some will eventually go that way but a lot of them really really hate KC.

I'd second this explanation.  I've had some really bad interactions with KC fans at games and I honestly didn't initiate the discourse.  I don't hate KC but understand why a lot of St. Louis fans do.

[crazycolt1]

4 hours ago, The Old Crow said:

 

There is no doubt no  team would have come if we didn't have a lucrative stadium deal on the table. I think the majority of the population in Baltimore felt bad about what happened to Cleveland. They certainly didn't deserve to lose their team. I would disagree about the fan base in respect to the Browns were still coming off some of the good Kosar years, and attendance  had not yet plummeted to the point of the 83 Colts. Both are proven , good fan bases in their cities. Where I give Cleveland city leaders ,and their fans total credit, is fighting tooth and nail to keep their colors, logos, and history. Modell wanted to be the Baltimore Browns, but thank god that never happened. Cleveland succeeded where Baltimore failed, and I'm glad, because I wouldn't want Jim Brown or Otto Graham in my record books. They accomplished things in another city, which I was not part of. I feel the same way about St Louis Browns records mixed in with the Orioles. As far as I'm concerned, the O's started in 1954 . 

Yeah, Baltimore felt so bad for Cleveland? Is that why Baltimore was forced by the NFL to acknowledge the Colts? Baltimore and it's fans had zero to do with Modell having to drop the Brown name. But yet called the Colts Indy till forced otherwise. Baltimore fans can feel butt hurt bad enough for it to become an obsession but not when it comes to themselves. Just like you still talking about the Orioles after 60 years. Just saying.

[Superman]

7 hours ago, The Old Crow said:

 

Part of that is true, as he said this when he moved to Indy. However, he said this also before the move and eminent domain. He certainly paid for it , and earned it, but he put a shoddy product out for the most part in Baltimore and Indy. But like most of the modern day owners, he was a good businessman. That is the most positive thing I can say about him, along with the fact that he took care of his family, unlike Carroll Rosenbloom . That is a sad story. 

 

It was just as true before eminent domain as it was after.

[The Old Crow]

3 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

Yeah, Baltimore felt so bad for Cleveland? Is that why Baltimore was forced by the NFL to acknowledge the Colts? Baltimore and it's fans had zero to do with Modell having to drop the Brown name. But yet called the Colts Indy till forced otherwise. Baltimore fans can feel butt hurt bad enough for it to become an obsession but not when it comes to themselves. Just like you still talking about the Orioles after 60 years. Just saying.

 

I think any NFL team can put whatever on their scoreboard. What difference if it's Baltimore- Indy, Ravens- Indy, etc. Indy is the opposing team, they don't have to put Colts . I think Bisciotti put Colts on there as a gesture of goodwill. I believe he likes Jim Irsay. Like I've said, most of the stuff has simmered down. Aren't the Colts Indy ? How about the piped in noise allegations ? How do you feel about that ?

 

I think I fully credited the Cleveland politicians and fans for keeping the Browns logos and history , so I'm not sure where you got that one. 

 

Try to put it in this perspective. Let's say hypothetically the Colts leave Indy for LA. They take everything with them, your logos , records , and championships . Their fans claim your 2006 Super Bowl, and claim your Indy Hall of Famers as part of LA. They tell you how Peyton Manning was an LA Colt great. They put together a show on the 2006 Super Bowl with players from the Bears and current LA Colts. 

You are upset about it, but they tell you that you are bitter, butt hurt , get over it, and soon they will be in LA longer than Indy . We moved on in Baltimore, but that is the sadness that is always there. If that scenario, or London , happened to Indy, I would be outraged for Indy fans, like I am St. Louis. 

 

My my thinking is if a team or owner has to move because of stadium, eminent domain, or whatever, fine, but leave the heritage in the city. The Rams logo and history should have been waiting for them in LA, as the Cardinals in St Louis. I know this isn't a popular opinion, but that's how I feel. I know you guys love the Colts, and have earned the horseshoe by being great fans . It's the past now, we have the Ravens, you have the Colts, but I'm trying to give you an insight into some of the older Baltimore fans. 

 

 

[crazycolt1]

1 hour ago, The Old Crow said:

 

I think any NFL team can put whatever on their scoreboard. What difference if it's Baltimore- Indy, Ravens- Indy, etc. Indy is the opposing team, they don't have to put Colts . I think Bisciotti put Colts on there as a gesture of goodwill. I believe he likes Jim Irsay. Like I've said, most of the stuff has simmered down. Aren't the Colts Indy ? How about the piped in noise allegations ? How do you feel about that ?

 

I think I fully credited the Cleveland politicians and fans for keeping the Browns logos and history , so I'm not sure where you got that one. 

 

Try to put it in this perspective. Let's say hypothetically the Colts leave Indy for LA. They take everything with them, your logos , records , and championships . Their fans claim your 2006 Super Bowl, and claim your Indy Hall of Famers as part of LA. They tell you how Peyton Manning was an LA Colt great. They put together a show on the 2006 Super Bowl with players from the Bears and current LA Colts. 

You are upset about it, but they tell you that you are bitter, butt hurt , get over it, and soon they will be in LA longer than Indy . We moved on in Baltimore, but that is the sadness that is always there. If that scenario, or London , happened to Indy, I would be outraged for Indy fans, like I am St. Louis. 

 

My my thinking is if a team or owner has to move because of stadium, eminent domain, or whatever, fine, but leave the heritage in the city. The Rams logo and history should have been waiting for them in LA, as the Cardinals in St Louis. I know this isn't a popular opinion, but that's how I feel. I know you guys love the Colts, and have earned the horseshoe by being great fans . It's the past now, we have the Ravens, you have the Colts, but I'm trying to give you an insight into some of the older Baltimore fans. 

 

 

I understand but that is your thinking, not the owner. He owns the team. It is his property. The reality of it is business. Just about every business moves to where they can make the most money. Having insight does not excuse the treatment of Indy, it's people or the Colts have received from Baltimore. When fandom turns into obsession, reality is lost.

[The Old Crow]

2 hours ago, Superman said:

 

It was just as true before eminent domain as it was after.

 

I am sure it was , but those kind of statements just don't make you feel invested in your team. I think most fans refer to your team as " we," but Bob made sure everyone knew it was all him. Though it may be true, no fan wants to be told by their owner it's not their team. Why would you even pay money to go to a game ?

[southwest1]

10 hours ago, The Old Crow said:

 

I would say this to the St. Louis fans. If you want to join another team like the Colts, great, the team is good, the fans friendly, and it's a nice city. 

 

But, if you our a St. Louis native, and want a team back in your city, submitting to regional rule from another NFL town is the worst thing you can do. If Jim Irsay thinks that St. Louis is in his team's regional rights, he will fight you tooth and nail if you try to get another team. The NFL will be shoving Colt games down your throat whether you want them or not, in your market. This happened in Baltimore with the Redskins, and kept football out for 12 years. 

 

This is is not a knock on the Colts or Irsay, but as Superman says, it's brutal business. I'm an Orioles fan and I watched Peter Angelos do this to DC, and I didn't like it. When the Expo's came to DC, he got baseball to turn most of the Nationals broadcasting rights to the Orioles, which is the MASN network. Just pointing out some of the grim realities of being a regional outpost city of another team. If you want to join a team, and don't care if your city has a team, the Colts are a good choice. 

Nice post TOC. Very well written too.You do make a good point. Displaced & disgruntled Rams fans might take some flack if they just alter NFL allegiances so quickly that it makes the league think St. Louis doesn't want another franchise. However, If a St. Louis fan loves football & their stadium is now empty, you can't expect legions of fans to abstain from all NFL viewing from this point forward either. 

 

I get what your driving at though & you're not wrong in an idealized sense TOC. 

 

Thanks for the complement about INDY's team & fanbase too. It just makes me respect you & your Ravens more my friend. 

 

One thing that works against the Rams in LA again is this: There's so much to do in CA from an entertainment perspective that Jeff Fisher's squad better not suck or play average ball because devoted fans won't show up longterm then. 

[The Old Crow]

5 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

I understand but that is your thinking, not the owner. He owns the team. It is his property. The reality of it is business. Just about every business moves to where they can make the most money. Having insight does not excuse the treatment of Indy, it's people or the Colts have received from Baltimore. When fandom turns into obsession, reality is lost.

 

I agree with you and Superman that it is big business, but just lamenting how the fans and cities can be shortchanged. It just came out today that Kroenke doubled the value of his franchise today by moving to LA ! He went from the 28th most valuable franchise, to the third. My point is this could happen to Baltimore, Indy, or another city in the future, if they could double their franchise value by moving to London, for example. Look, I want these owners to be successful and make tons of money, but when is enough, enough ?

 

When your team moves to another city, it is natural to get some hostility. I have many friends in Cleveland who point out we took their team, and we did, but I always tell them it shouldn't have happened, and I feel bad about it. We all wanted an expansion team, but after we got turned down for the last time in expansion, and Taglibue told us to forget football and build a museum, the stadium funding was still in place when Modell called. What do you do, wait another 12 years ? It was an ugly situation and I fully know why Cleveland fans get upset with Baltimore . I never tell those guys to get over it, because I know it hurt. 

 

Contrast that with Indy and St. Louis building stadiums and soliciting teams. We never did that , but I understand it's a business. Look, I fully understand you guys are happy Bob Irsay brought you the Colts and NFL football. I don't blame the fans, you guys have supported the Colts for 32 years. We have supported the Ravens for 20 years now, as we supported the Colts for 30. But as I pointed out in my example to you about LA, if you were a fan of the team leaving , trust me, you would have a slightly different perspective. 

If you saw your Championship banners hanging in another city, Manning, Polian , Harrison in a LA Rams section of the Pro Football HOF, and an ESPN retrospective of the 2006 Super Bowl as presented by new LA Rams, and don't get upset, you are way better than all of us. This is the bummer part when your team moves, and everything goes with it. 

[Superman]

32 minutes ago, The Old Crow said:

 

I am sure it was , but those kind of statements just don't make you feel invested in your team. I think most fans refer to your team as " we," but Bob made sure everyone knew it was all him. Though it may be true, no fan wants to be told by their owner it's not their team. Why would you even pay money to go to a game ?

 

For the same reason you go to the theater to watch a movie. Entertainment.

 

Being a fan is a very emotional thing. I don't have a problem with fans having that kind of attachment to the local team. I do have a problem with fans and especially the government trying to take control over the team, even wrestling ownership of it away from the true owner.

 

You claim that Bob Irsay made those comments before the eminent domain thing, but I can't find any note of him saying that until he went to Indy. I think his point was 'I'm not going to let anyone take this team from me and my family.' And I'm fine with that.