Grigson Swings For Fences

[ruksak]

He drafted exactly who Irsay told him to draft, and anyone Irsay hired was making the same pick.  If you don't think Irsay made the Luck decision you are delusional.  I refuse to give Grigson credit for making the pick he was told to make, and the pick 99% of football fans would have made. The only heat he was going to take if Luck failed was from the media to create controversy for the sake of viewers.

 

I don't know what board you were reading, but Luck was the the forum favorite by a landslide.  I guess you missed the whole "suck for Luck" thing that was all over every football board including this one. Everyone knew who was going with the first pick, the only way we were taking RG3 is if Luck had suffered some catastrophic career ending injury prior to the draft.  

 

I will give credit where its due .... he did an amazing job with the rest of the 2012 draft, but he deserves no credit for Luck.

 

Gotta agree here.

 

No way Irsay wasn't looming over that decision, fully guiding the franchise toward the franchise player. Grigson was nothing more than a liaison for Irsay's wishes with the Luck pick. 

[Jason_]

He certainly has been so far, don't 'cha think? 

 

A 1st round defender should have contributed something by now, and I saw nothing in the way of instinct or NFL caliber ability last year. With Mathis out, I hope he steps up. As far as Grigson is concerned; I think it's fair and objective to state that Werner and Richardson stand to hold a tremendous amount of potential to be seen as Grigson flops. 

 

History will be the judge of all that. I'm just giving my prediction. 

 

No, I don't think that at all.  To declare any player a bust after one year, especially one where they were learning 2 new positions and dealt with a multi-game injury to go along with having to make the transition from college to the pros, is absurd in my opinion.

 

Do you consider Dion Jordan, Barkevious Mingo and Jarvis Jones to be busts as well?

 

Gotta agree here.

 

No way Irsay wasn't looming over that decision, fully guiding the franchise toward the franchise player. Grigson was nothing more than a liaison for Irsay's wishes with the Luck pick. 

 

This I fully agree with.  There was never a point when Luck was not the absolute #1 choice.  While he was conducting interviews for the open GM position, I remember Irsay in an interview saying that he will be the one to make the final choice on Manning and he will be the one who makes the final decision on the #1 overall pick.  After that, the GM will be in complete control of the team.  Irsay wouldn't have hired anyone who wasn't going to pick Luck, and even if he did hire someone who thought RG3 might be better, Irsay would have overruled.  That's my opinion based on comments made by Irsay.

[ruksak]

No, I don't think that at all.  To declare any player a bust after one year, especially one where they were learning 2 new positions and dealt with a multi-game injury to go along with having to make the transition from college to the pros, is absurd in my opinion.

 

Do you consider Dion Jordan, Barkevious Mingo and Jarvis Jones to be busts as well?

 

 

Mingo is the only one of those players I'm familiar with, and his career stats reflect SOMETHING. Werner, his production has been woeful. Remember, he's a first round pick. That sort of selection demands immediate value. 

 

What's more is, watching him as I have so closely, I see the EXACT same lackluster drive and confusion that I saw from Jerry Hughes. An absence of innate NFL talent, that's what I'm seeing. 

 

Maybe "bust" is a bit severe, I'll give ya that. But my prediction is that Werner will be seen as Grigson's first impactful foul-up. 

[Jason_]

Mingo is the only one of those players I'm familiar with, and his career stats reflect SOMETHING. Werner, his production has been woeful. Remember, he's a first round pick. That sort of selection demands immediate value. 

 

What's more is, watching him as I have so closely, I see the EXACT same lackluster drive and confusion that I saw from Jerry Hughes. An absence of innate NFL talent, that's what I'm seeing. 

 

Maybe "bust" is a bit severe, I'll give ya that. But my prediction is that Werner will be seen as Grigson's first impactful foul-up. 

 

Well, first of all I think that expecting any first round pick to have an immediate impact is setting yourself up for disappointment.  I consider maybe the top 10 picks to be guys that should have an immediate impact.  After that it's a crap shoot.

 

I also never saw a lackluster drive out of Werner but I did see the confusion, and that I attribute to him learning the nuances of playing SamOLB and RushOLB.  Remember, Pagano initially said they only intended to use him as a RushLB in his first year so that he would spell Mathis in the base defense and line up opposite Mathis in Nickel/Dime situations.  However early injuries forced them to play him much more at SamLB where rushing the passer isn't his top priority on most plays.  

 

I think last year he was having to think too much about his responsibility on any given play.  He didn't know the positions well enough to just play and react.  I could definitely see this improving though towards the end of the year and I think he'll have a breakout year 2.

[ruksak]

Well, first of all I think that expecting any first round pick to have an immediate impact is setting yourself up for disappointment.

Granted.

 

 

 

I also never saw a lackluster drive out of Werner but I did see the confusion, and that I attribute to him learning the nuances of playing SamOLB and RushOLB.  Remember, Pagano initially said they only intended to use him as a RushLB in his first year so that he would spell Mathis in the base defense and line up opposite Mathis in Nickel/Dime situations.

That's where I really saw concern, and certainly a lack of acclimation was at work here. So often watching him fail to read a run correctly, get himself blocked out and then seemingly go flat footed, many times actually turning his back to the ball carrier out of confusion. 

 

Perhaps I'll revise my evaluation of him to that of 'slow learner'. As i feel it's fair to say he certainly wasn't a fast learner. Which, as many of us know, can eventually show a player to just not be able to learn the NFL game. 

 

With Mathis out for a stretch, jeepers creepers I hope I'm wrong about him. I DO NOT want him to fail. Just not feeling it with him. 

[SOMDColtsfan]

The Erik Swoope "project" is puzzling to me. Why put forth the effort and time when you already have 2 really good young TE`s? Seems like a "project" would be better suited for a position like a Safety for the Colts. Maybe falls back to best player available? Puzzling

[21isSuperman]

The Erik Swoope "project" is puzzling to me. Why put forth the effort and time when you already have 2 really good young TE`s? Seems like a "project" would be better suited for a position like a Safety for the Colts. Maybe falls back to best player available? Puzzling

I've felt the same way.  Sure, there are injuries and whatnot, but that's why we have so many weapons.  Wayne, Hilton, Moncrief, Nicks, Rogers, Whalen, Fleener, Allen, Bradshaw, Ballard, and Richardson.  Even if injuries hit us hard, we have tons of weapons.  It would have to take a ridiculous season in terms of injuries for us to run out of weapons.  You have a good DB coach in Pagano, so I think it would be a better investment to bring in a raw, athletic DB, and let Pagano do his thing.  Even if the plan is to develop him and trade him, I don't know how much you would be able to get for him.  Maybe they are worried about 2 or 3 years down the line if Nicks leaves, and Wayne retires, but then we still have tons of weapons and there would be future drafts and free agency.  It's something that's a cool story, but I don't know what impact it will have on the field.  I don't think the investment the team puts into him will be equivalent to what we get out of him.  But I guess we'll see

[Jason_]

Granted.

 

That's where I really saw concern, and certainly a lack of acclimation was at work here. So often watching him fail to read a run correctly, get himself blocked out and then seemingly go flat footed, many times actually turning his back to the ball carrier out of confusion. 

 

Perhaps I'll revise my evaluation of him to that of 'slow learner'. As i feel it's fair to say he certainly wasn't a fast learner. Which, as many of us know, can eventually show a player to just not be able to learn the NFL game. 

 

With Mathis out for a stretch, jeepers creepers I hope I'm wrong about him. I DO NOT want him to fail. Just not feeling it with him. 

 

Well personally I don't think labelling him as a slow learner is really fair either.  For one thing, different players adjust differently and at different paces to the NFL level of competition.  Players don't always play well in their first year in a new defense...for example, Mathis didn't play all that well at all imo as a SamLB 2 years ago, but he flourished last year as a RushLB, even though he still struggled early on in run defense after switching sides.  Vontae struggled his first few games here as a Colt but definitely improved as that first season went on.  RJF struggled in the first few games last year being in a new defense but he also showed improvement as the season went on. 

 

I just think Werner had more adjusting to do than most rookies do and that's why he struggled perhaps more than some others did, but really Ansah was the only rookie pass rusher from the first round of that draft class that really had what I would consider an impactful season.

[Gavin]

The Erik Swoope "project" is puzzling to me. Why put forth the effort and time when you already have 2 really good young TE`s? Seems like a "project" would be better suited for a position like a Safety for the Colts. Maybe falls back to best player available? Puzzling

The fact that we have 2 pretty good TE's means we can afford a project player at that position. The fact that we don't really know how Howell is going to do over the course of a 16 game season means  we really shouldn't be able to afford to put in another project at Safety (Though many of us likely already have ideas of our own how this Howell experiment is going to go)

[GoColts8818]

He drafted exactly who Irsay told him to draft, and anyone Irsay hired was making the same pick.  If you don't think Irsay made the Luck decision you are delusional.  I refuse to give Grigson credit for making the pick he was told to make, and the pick 99% of football fans would have made. The only heat he was going to take if Luck failed was from the media to create controversy for the sake of viewers.

 

I don't know what board you were reading, but Luck was the the forum favorite by a landslide.  I guess you missed the whole "suck for Luck" thing that was all over every football board including this one. Everyone knew who was going with the first pick, the only way we were taking RG3 is if Luck had suffered some catastrophic career ending injury prior to the draft.  

 

I will give credit where its due .... he did an amazing job with the rest of the 2012 draft, but he deserves no credit for Luck.

if he would have gotten the blame had he gotten it wrong, which he would have, then he gets the credit for getting it right. We disagree so I think it's time to agree to disagree.

[dudeski]

He was awful save for that game.

no he wasnt

[dudeski]

Mingo is the only one of those players I'm familiar with, and his career stats reflect SOMETHING. Werner, his production has been woeful. Remember, he's a first round pick. That sort of selection demands immediate value.

What's more is, watching him as I have so closely, I see the EXACT same lackluster drive and confusion that I saw from Jerry Hughes. An absence of innate NFL talent, that's what I'm seeing.

Maybe "bust" is a bit severe, I'll give ya that. But my prediction is that Werner will be seen as Grigson's first impactful foul-up.

i question your ability to evaluate football

[ruksak]

i question your ability to evaluate football

Care to elaborate?

 

Besides, there's a reason why I'm driving a forklift for a living and not scouting for NFL teams. 

 

Also, my ego regarding my ability to evaluate my fellow humans took a sizable hit when I married trailer trash some 16 years ago. So....using this as a measure, perhaps Werner will be the second coming of Reggie White. 

 

Also Part II; I'm not sure you're a dude and I bet you can't even ski. So....there. Take that. 

[Jason_]

if he would have gotten the blame had he gotten it wrong, which he would have, then he gets the credit for getting it right. We disagree so I think it's time to agree to disagree.

 

IMO, Irsay would have taken the heat had Luck not panned out, not Grigson. 

[Jason_]

i question your ability to evaluate football

 

I question your reasoning for posting on this forum.

[ruksak]

I question your reasoning for posting on this forum.

I dunno. I made a comment about Werner and you used logic, reason and football sense to converse a dialog that made a great deal of sense....and he totally punked on me with a smart remark. This isn't a fansite, it's a debate board, don't 'cha know? We're not supposed to concede a point and come to an agreement like adults. We're supposed to just argue until someone gets infracted (keeps that lazy Superman busy). 

 

So, you might not wanna mess with the likes of the dude. He'll shred you, as he did me, with his awesome insults. 

[dudeski]

I question your reasoning for posting on this forum.

I like to educate people

[ruksak]

I like to educate people

I would receive an infraction if I told you what I learned from you today. 

 

You do realize you said nothing at all informative or substantive, right? You just dissed my football knowledge after I gave an opinion about a player that, by any reasonable measure, has been somewhat disappointing. 

 

If you want an education, review the way Jason replied to me and learn how to articulate a point. 

[Jason_]

I like to educate people

How can you know you like something without actually ever doing it?

[Gavin]

I like to educate people

I like to pick arguments with people

 

 

 

Fixed it for you

[jskinnz]

The Erik Swoope "project" is puzzling to me. Why put forth the effort and time when you already have 2 really good young TE`s? Seems like a "project" would be better suited for a position like a Safety for the Colts. Maybe falls back to best player available? Puzzling

 

Not sure I follow the logic here.  Is there something that says they can't have more than one "project" going at the same time.  There isn't and I point to Adongo and Swoope as evidence.  If they had a safety that fit this "project" description, they would be trying that as well. 

 

Also, this is the perfect time to be developing a player like Swoope.  If he is a home-run he will likely not prove that until next year.  If that is the case then Allen or Fleener become expendable when their contract is up because they have a player waiting in the wings. 

[GoColts8818]

Not sure I follow the logic here.  Is there something that says they can't have more than one "project" going at the same time.  There isn't and I point to Adongo and Swoope as evidence.  If they had a safety that fit this "project" description, they would be trying that as well. 

 

Also, this is the perfect time to be developing a player like Swoope.  If he is a home-run he will likely not prove that until next year.  If that is the case then Allen or Fleener become expendable when their contract is up because they have a player waiting in the wings. 

especially headed into training camp.  With the rosters expanded to 90 now is the time to try a couple of projects.  If they make enough progress you can keep them past camp wonderful.  If not you just release them and stash them on the practice squad or just release them and be done with them. 

[imacoltfan]

I think Bill Polian is a HOF talent evaluator.  But I did get tired of guys like Bernard Whittington and Kenyunta Dawson being on the roster.  They were never good enough to be anything more then a roster spot.

 

Bill Tobin was the GM. Whittington was undrafted in 1994 and played 9 years. The last two with Cincy. 

 

[NewColtsFan]

1. McNary has always been LB.  I think you're mixing him up with Mario Harvey

2. Good character guys?  Really?  Good character does not seem to be an emphasis of Grigson's

 

Seriously?

 

What notoriously bad character guys has Grigson brought in?

[NewColtsFan]

He certainly has been so far, don't 'cha think? 

 

A 1st round defender should have contributed something by now, and I saw nothing in the way of instinct or NFL caliber ability last year. With Mathis out, I hope he steps up. As far as Grigson is concerned; I think it's fair and objective to state that Werner and Richardson stand to hold a tremendous amount of potential to be seen as Grigson flops. 

 

History will be the judge of all that. I'm just giving my prediction. 

 

By now?

 

It's been one whole year for Werner.    One.

 

And during that time,  he had an injury that kept him out of a number of games plus kept him at less than 100% for other games.

 

Plus he's learning a new position on the fly.

 

But one year is enough to determine he's a bust already.      Wow.

 

EDIT:    I've now seen a follow-up post of yours.   I'd say the slow reactions you saw were due to (A) being a rookie,  but more important (B)  changing from a 4-3 DE to a stand-up 3-4 OLB.     Not everyone can make that switch.  

 

You may be right.   Maybe Werner doesn't pan out.    I just think deciding that now is jumping the gun.

[GoColts8818]

Seriously?

 

What notoriously bad character guys has Grigson brought in?

I don't think any GM goes out of his way to get bad character guys but I would say character flaws are less important to Grigson/Pagano than it was for say Dungy.  It doesn't mean Grigson and Pagano want bad guys I just think they are willing to take more of a risk on guys with character flaws than Dungy was. 

[NewColtsFan]

The Erik Swoope "project" is puzzling to me. Why put forth the effort and time when you already have 2 really good young TE`s? Seems like a "project" would be better suited for a position like a Safety for the Colts. Maybe falls back to best player available? Puzzling

 

Because he's a free agent.   He costs the Colts next to nothing.

 

If it doesn't work out,  no big deal.   But if works out,  the benefits are huge.

 

Zero downside,  huge upside.    That's why we did it.

 

You want a project safety?    We have one.    McDonald,  another free agent from a small school with physical talent who's going to have to get up to speed on the NFL level.    Big jump.     Not easy to do.

 

But there's your safety project.

[Superman]

especially headed into training camp.  With the rosters expanded to 90 now is the time to try a couple of projects.  If they make enough progress you can keep them past camp wonderful.  If not you just release them and stash them on the practice squad or just release them and be done with them. 

 

That's a good point. I think teams are more willing to try to develop guys like this now that the offseason rosters are bigger. I think the active rosters and practice squads should be bigger as well, to help teams develop young players like this more often. 

[NewColtsFan]

I don't think any GM goes out of his way to get bad character guys but I would say character flaws are less important to Grigson/Pagano than it was for say Dungy.  It doesn't mean Grigson and Pagano want bad guys I just think they are willing to take more of a risk on guys with character flaws than Dungy was. 

 

I'll ask you the same question....

 

Which bad character guys has Grigson brought in?

 

I'm talking about guys that when we brought them in,  we all looked at each other and said....  "Wow, I didn't think Grigson would've brought in that guy..."

 

I don't recall one.     But hey....   my memory is not as sharp as it used to be, so maybe I'm forgetting someone.....?

[Superman]

I'll ask you the same question....

 

Which bad character guys has Grigson brought in?

 

I'm talking about guys that when we brought them in,  we all looked at each other and said....  "Wow, I didn't think Grigson would've brought in that guy..."

 

I don't recall one.     But hey....   my memory is not as sharp as it used to be, so maybe I'm forgetting someone.....?

 

There's Montori Hughes and Da'Rick Rogers, and now Purifoy. I wouldn't go so far as to label any of them, but they've all had their issues in the past. 

[21isSuperman]

I'll ask you the same question....

 

Which bad character guys has Grigson brought in?

 

I'm talking about guys that when we brought them in,  we all looked at each other and said....  "Wow, I didn't think Grigson would've brought in that guy..."

 

I don't recall one.     But hey....   my memory is not as sharp as it used to be, so maybe I'm forgetting someone.....?

As GoColts said, I'm not saying Grigs goes out of his way to get guys with criminal histories.  But the emphasis on character isn't as strong as Colts fans are used to, especially during the Polian/Dungy times.  Rogers, Andrew Jackson, Jack Mewhort, Brazill, Purifoy, and several others on the team have had character issues in the past.

[Superman]

As GoColts said, I'm not saying Grigs goes out of his way to get guys with criminal histories.  But the emphasis on character isn't as strong as Colts fans are used to, especially during the Polian/Dungy times.  Rogers, Andrew Jackson, Jack Mewhort, Brazill, Purifoy, and several others on the team have had character issues in the past.

 

Do you think Dungy would have decided not to draft Mewhort because he was suspended for public urinating two years ago? I hope not...

[GoColts8818]

I'll ask you the same question....

 

Which bad character guys has Grigson brought in?

 

I'm talking about guys that when we brought them in,  we all looked at each other and said....  "Wow, I didn't think Grigson would've brought in that guy..."

 

I don't recall one.     But hey....   my memory is not as sharp as it used to be, so maybe I'm forgetting someone.....?

Boyett, Thornton had some issues in college and for Boyett it kept going once he got here.  Brazill clearly has issues.  Rodgers had issues in college  None of them are guys are I would call bad character guys.  Well maybe Boyett he wasn't really here long enough to get a read on him.  Like I said I don't think it's that Grigson goes after guys who are bad character guys, I think no NFL GM who is any good at all does that.  I just think character flaws aren't an automatic red flag for him and Pagano like it was for Dungy. 

 

So I think for a lot of Colts fans when they say Grigson is willing to take a risk on a guy who had some questionable behavior in their past they are used to the days of Dungy where character was almost as important to him as talent was.  In reality I think Grigson and Pagano are about on the same level as most GMs and head coaches in the NFL in terms of how important character is to them. Dungy was the one who was abnormal here and it wasn't bad but for a lot of Colts fans Dungy is what they know as a NFL Head Coach. 

[NewColtsFan]

Boyett, Thornton had some issues in college and for Boyett it kept going once he got here.  Brazill clearly has issues.  Rodgers had issues in college  None of them are guys are I would call bad character guys.  Well maybe Boyett he wasn't really here long enough to get a read on him.  Like I said I don't think it's that Grigson goes after guys who are bad character guys, I think no NFL GM who is any good at all does that.  I just think character flaws aren't an automatic red flag for him and Pagano like it was for Dungy. 

 

So I think for a lot of Colts fans when they say Grigson is willing to take a risk on a guy who had some questionable behavior in their past they are used to the days of Dungy where character was almost as important to him as talent was.  In reality I think Grigson and Pagano are about on the same level as most GMs and head coaches in the NFL in terms of how important character is to them. Dungy was the one who was abnormal here and it wasn't bad but for a lot of Colts fans Dungy is what they know as a NFL Head Coach. 

 

I'm not aware that Boyett had any problems in college.   Which is why his drunken rampage seemed so out of place.

 

But Superman reminds me that Hughes, Rogers and Purifoy would fit the bill.

 

And to that, I'd say, Rogers and Purifoy are free agents.    Very little risk.    They don't work out (or act up) and it's an easy cut.

 

And I'm OK with that.....

 

Hughes is the one investment that stands out for me because we paid a price (a future #4) for him.

 

I'm willing to take some risks on some kids.    I don't want a blanket policy, but rather a case by case consideration.

 

There have been lots of kids that we were in position to draft or sign the last few years that we didn't.   Their issues likely made us think they weren't worth the risk.     And I'm OK with that too....

[NewColtsFan]

As GoColts said, I'm not saying Grigs goes out of his way to get guys with criminal histories.  But the emphasis on character isn't as strong as Colts fans are used to, especially during the Polian/Dungy times.  Rogers, Andrew Jackson, Jack Mewhort, Brazill, Purifoy, and several others on the team have had character issues in the past.

 

Thanks....   I'm unaware of anything serious from Andrew Jackson or Mewhort.    Superman says he peed publicly a few years ago...   to me,  that's a stupid thing a kid would do at that age...  I'm not ready to give him a character flag for that...

 

Superman notes Hughes, Rogers and Purifoy...   and two of those three are free agents so I'm OK with that....

 

But I appreciate the response,  thanks....

[dudeski]

I would receive an infraction if I told you what I learned from you today.

You do realize you said nothing at all informative or substantive, right? You just dissed my football knowledge after I gave an opinion about a player that, by any reasonable measure, has been somewhat disappointing.

If you want an education, review the way Jason replied to me and learn how to articulate a point.

sounds like you had way too high of expectations to begin with.

[The Peytonator]

sounds like you had way too high of expectations to begin with.

 

 

I'm not sure why anyone would expect to get a well thought out response from you. 

[dudeski]

I'm not sure why anyone would expect to get a well thought out response from you.

i am giving the answers. Was never a fan of showing my work

[21isSuperman]

Thanks....   I'm unaware of anything serious from Andrew Jackson or Mewhort.    Superman says he peed publicly a few years ago...   to me,  that's a stupid thing a kid would do at that age...  I'm not ready to give him a character flag for that...

 

Superman notes Hughes, Rogers and Purifoy...   and two of those three are free agents so I'm OK with that....

 

But I appreciate the response,  thanks....

According to his NFL.com draft profile, Andrew Jackson "Did not play football as a sophomore in high school after he was arrested on an attempted burglary charge and completed nine months of community service. His high school coach contended Jackson was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time and took the blame for friends...was suspended against Georgia State (violation of team rules)".  Furthermore, Jonathan Newsome (5th round pick) has his profile say "Did not keep up academically (sat out '11 spring practice) or climb the depth chart at OSU. Transferred and sat out '11, per NCAA rules. Was arrested in August '12 for marijuana possession and was also held on a warrant for a conversion charge from an incident in which he and a teammate allegedly tried to shoplift male enhancement pills".  I think Polian and Dungy would have crossed him off their list almost immediately.

 

Do you think Dungy would have decided not to draft Mewhort because he was suspended for public urinating two years ago? I hope not...

I dunno, hard to say.  Dungy and Polian were really strict with player history, so I could see it.

[Superman]

According to his NFL.com draft profile, Andrew Jackson "Did not play football as a sophomore in high school after he was arrested on an attempted burglary charge and completed nine months of community service. His high school coach contended Jackson was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time and took the blame for friends...was suspended against Georgia State (violation of team rules)".  Furthermore, Jonathan Newsome (5th round pick) has his profile say "Did not keep up academically (sat out '11 spring practice) or climb the depth chart at OSU. Transferred and sat out '11, per NCAA rules. Was arrested in August '12 for marijuana possession and was also held on a warrant for a conversion charge from an incident in which he and a teammate allegedly tried to shoplift male enhancement pills".  I think Polian and Dungy would have crossed him off their list almost immediately.

 

I dunno, hard to say.  Dungy and Polian were really strict with player history, so I could see it.

 

Makes me glad neither of them are here anymore. I'm grateful for all the good they did for the Colts, absolutely, and character is definitely important. But sometimes, there was an insistence on choir boys, almost. We need football players. The Mewhort thing, for instance, is a complete non-issue.

 

I actually think it was more Dungy than Polian. After Dungy left, Polian and Caldwell brought back Ed Johnson. There were a couple other less than perfect players as well.