Colts Defensive Backs

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

Far from wrong, Bethea was average last year. Made plays yes, but for every play he made..... gave up 2-3

Nope & it will be ugly when hes not there to to tackle & clean up everyone's mess they created. Certainly Bethea was not perfect but the 49ers thought enough of him to add him to a super bowl caliber team & pay him because hes just average! Not!

[Nobody]

He is not a top 5 corner, he would need to play way more consistent!!

people say that because he had one bad game.

[Nobody]

Nope & it will be ugly when hes not there to to tackle & clean up everyone's mess they created. Certainly Bethea was not perfect but the 49ers thought enough of him to add him to a super bowl caliber team & pay him because hes just average! Not!

He was below average, average at best. His tackling was great to have but his coverage was downright atrocious.

[Jason_]

Your sadly mistaking. D'Qwell Jackson is 4-3 linebacker so don't give me that fact that Brackett won't fit. And lack knowledge of defensive concepts when we're trying to intergrade players that players in a 4-3 like Werner into a 3-4.

 

 

You're comparing apples to oranges.  Converting a 4-3 edge rusher to 3-4 OLB is done literally multiple times every single year in the NFL  However, trying to convert a somewhat oversized safety (Brackett) into a 3-4 ILB is rarely done.  The difference between Brackett and D'Qwell Jackson is that when Jackson was released, multiple teams had him in for workouts and he was able to choose between multiple suitors for his new team.  When Brackett was released....*insert sound of crickets chirping*.  Brackett only worked in our defense because of how reliant they were on the tampa 2 coverage.  The tampa 2 requires a MLB with a different skill set than most other defenses.  In most defenses, you'd have a specified Nickel/Dime coverage LB that's not necessarily an every down LB.  On any other team that's what Brackett might have been.  Indy was essentially the only team where he fit as an every down MLB simply because of the defensive scheme ran during that time period.

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

He was below average, average at best. His tackling was great to have but his coverage was downright atrocious.

not true his coverage was OK last year. Without knowing the coverage the person you think he should be covering might not even be his guy. I played division 1 safety & I can tell you  Behtea is very good. I would guess 49ers would concur with more opinion. I am sure they looked at plenty of tape.

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

people say that because he had one bad game.

Dude 1 bad game I can think of at least 3 or 4 off the top of my head. Top 10 yes top 5 NOOOO WAYYY! He either is great in a game or bad. There is never any middle ground with the guy, & now we paid him? Lets see how hungry is or isn't. I got a bit of a concern with him.

[Gavin]

You're comparing apples to oranges.  Converting a 4-3 edge rusher to 3-4 OLB is done literally multiple times every single year in the NFL  However, trying to convert a somewhat oversized safety (Brackett) into a 3-4 ILB is rarely done.  The difference between Brackett and D'Qwell Jackson is that when Jackson was released, multiple teams had him in for workouts and he was able to choose between multiple suitors for his new team.  When Brackett was released....*insert sound of crickets chirping*.  Brackett only worked in our defense because of how reliant they were on the tampa 2 coverage.  The tampa 2 requires a MLB with a different skill set than most other defenses.  In most defenses, you'd have a specified Nickel/Dime coverage LB that's not necessarily an every down LB.  On any other team that's what Brackett might have been.  Indy was essentially the only team where he fit as an every down MLB simply because of the defensive scheme ran during that time period.

The difference in Jackson and Brackett is literally 1 inch and 5 pounds

[Jason_]

The difference in Jackson and Brackett is literally 1 inch and 5 pounds

OK. If all you want to consider is size and not skill set

besides I have no idea what your point is. I made no mention of the physical differences between Jackson and brackett.

[Nobody]

not true his coverage was OK last year. Without knowing the coverage the person you think he should be covering might not even be his guy. I played division 1 safety & I can tell you Behtea is very good. I would guess 49ers would concur with more opinion. I am sure they looked at plenty of tape.

Hes a safety not a corner. He gets toasted in deep coverage it's his fault.

[Nobody]

Dude 1 bad game I can think of at least 3 or 4 off the top of my head. Top 10 yes top 5 NOOOO WAYYY! He either is great in a game or bad. There is never any middle ground with the guy, & now we paid him? Lets see how hungry is or isn't. I got a bit of a concern with him.

No, you just only remember the extremes. Name 4 bad games then.

He's usually very good and sometimes amazing and sometimes bad. It's 90% of the time very good.

I can't argue with you because you seem to not know much about DBs.

[Hoosiernsavga]

I want to see if Vontae can consistently make plays. We haven't had a decent healthy #2 cb so he hasn't seen alot of action in the fact that most opposite wr's were open

like 7-11. He is definitely a #1 for most teams and Butler is a great nickel cb but we need a #2 corner something we didnt have last year. If Toler is the guy,he stays healthy, and can actually cover someone.

Vontae should see more balls thrown his way.

As good as Vontae is hes not a top 5 cb maybe a top 10.

If he were a top 5 corner he would have had no problem making the top 100 best players list. He wasn't close to that either.

[dudeski]

Far from wrong, Bethea was average last year. Made plays yes, but for every play he made..... gave up 2-3

says the guy that didn't actually see the games

[dudeski]

Hes a safety not a corner. He gets toasted in deep coverage it's his fault.

thats not close to true

[Jason_]

thats not close to true

And how is that?

[Gavin]

OK. If all you want to consider is size and not skill set

besides I have no idea what your point is. I made no mention of the physical differences between Jackson and brackett.

Both Jackson and Brackett have similar skill sets, Both were/are rangy vertically (Not necessarily sideline to sideline much) ILB's but I don't think either are real good at getting off of blocks, Both were decent but not flashy in coverage, Jackson takes bad angles sometimes and that leaves gaping holes, you mentioned Brackett as a somewhat oversized Safety, With Jackson being extremely close to the same size plus 1 inch and 5 lbs

[Nesjan3]

i miss Bethea already, i hope he comes back and retires as a Colt as Clark did

[Jason_]

Both Jackson and Brackett have similar skill sets, Both were/are rangy vertically (Not necessarily sideline to sideline much) ILB's but I don't think either are real good at getting off of blocks, Both were decent but not flashy in coverage, Jackson takes bad angles sometimes and that leaves gaping holes, you mentioned Brackett as a somewhat oversized Safety, With Jackson being extremely close to the same size plus 1 inch and 5 lbs

I said brackett was an oversized safety because I think safety would have fit his skill set far better than ilb.

I haven't watched any of Jackson but the mere fact he had several teams trying to sign him that gives me hope that is talent level is superior to bracketts

[Gavin]

I said brackett was an oversized safety because I think safety would have fit his skill set far better than ilb.

I haven't watched any of Jackson but the mere fact he had several teams trying to sign him that gives me hope that is talent level is superior to bracketts

Meh if I remember right Brackett was injured the year we released him(2011) and 32 years old....He also had not played a full 16 game season since 2007, Maybe Jackson is a little stronger but I don't think he is any quicker

[Jason_]

Meh if I remember right Brackett was injured the year we released him(2011) and 32 years old....He also had not played a full 16 game season since 2007, Maybe Jackson is a little stronger but I don't think he is any quicker

I'm thinking of more than just his final season. I never cared for brackett and never thought he was really any good. He had a very specialized skill set that made him look a little better in our defense but even in his "prime" I don't think he'd have been a starter for any other team

[dudeski]

And how is that?

a corner could screw up a coverage causing the safety to appear to get toasted.

[Gavin]

I'm thinking of more than just his final season. I never cared for brackett and never thought he was really any good. He had a very specialized skill set that made him look a little better in our defense but even in his "prime" I don't think he'd have been a starter for any other team

I wasn't a big fan of Brackett either but I thought he was alright and had a couple good years for us, I wasn't a fan of the Cover 2....or the Tampa 2 . I thought Brackett was an average talent. I was more frustrated by the previous regime not getting two big run stuffing defensive tackles

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

Hes a safety not a corner. He gets toasted in deep coverage it's his fault.

NOPE not all the time corners SOMETIMES have the WR the entire length of the field again you don't know the coverage. Yes he gets beat sometimes but more often than not he is fine. Again 49ers think he is fine too!!

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

a corner could screw up a coverage causing the safety to appear to get toasted.

This is very true!

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

Meh if I remember right Brackett was injured the year we released him(2011) and 32 years old....He also had not played a full 16 game season since 2007, Maybe Jackson is a little stronger but I don't think he is any quicker

He is bigger than Brackett weight wise I believe 245?

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

No, you just only remember the extremes. Name 4 bad games then.

He's usually very good and sometimes amazing and sometimes bad. It's 90% of the time very good.

I can't argue with you because you seem to not know much about DBs.

Your wrong!! I think I know plenty more than you about playing DB I played safety in a D1 program!! Thanks for your ignorance though!! Bad Games Arizona, Stl, Cinn, Houston, I also think he played poorly in the SD, & one of the Tenn games. Good try though living in your fantasy world. To be more accurate 70% of the time Very good & 30% percent of the time HORRIBLE!! The point is if in the 30% of horrible, say he would be average to good he just might be CLOSE to a top 5 corner, which at this time he doesn't, so at this point he is not. Another point if he is a top 5 corner why would Miami trade him when his contract was cap friendly at the time? HUMMMM because he isn't a top 5 corner!

[twfish]

Your wrong!! I think I know plenty more than you about playing DB I played safety in a D1 program!! Thanks for your ignorance though!! Bad Games Arizona, Stl, Cinn, Houston, I also think he played poorly in the SD, & one of the Tenn games. Good try though living in your fantasy world. To be more accurate 70% of the time Very good & 30% percent of the time HORRIBLE!! The point is if in the 30% of horrible, say he would be average to good he just might be CLOSE to a top 5 corner, which at this time he doesn't, so at this point he is not. Another point if he is a top 5 corner why would Miami trade him when his contract was cap friendly at the time? HUMMMM because he isn't a top 5 corner!

Just regarding the last part...... do you think they would trade him even if they knew he was a top 10 corner atleast? A very nice mistake on Miami's part. I dont think hes the best, hes certainly good and your taking away from him on the last part bad in my opinion.

[dudeski]

Your wrong!! I think I know plenty more than you about playing DB I played safety in a D1 program!! Thanks for your ignorance though!! Bad Games Arizona, Stl, Cinn, Houston, I also think he played poorly in the SD, & one of the Tenn games. Good try though living in your fantasy world. To be more accurate 70% of the time Very good & 30% percent of the time HORRIBLE!! The point is if in the 30% of horrible, say he would be average to good he just might be CLOSE to a top 5 corner, which at this time he doesn't, so at this point he is not. Another point if he is a top 5 corner why would Miami trade him when his contract was cap friendly at the time? HUMMMM because he isn't a top 5 corner!

no way was he 30 % horrible

[TYtheMan13]

I want to see if Vontae can consistently make plays. We haven't had a decent healthy #2 cb so he hasn't seen alot of action in the fact that most opposite wr's were open

like 7-11. He is definitely a #1 for most teams and Butler is a great nickel cb but we need a #2 corner something we didnt have last year. If Toler is the guy,he stays healthy, and can actually cover someone.

Vontae should see more balls thrown his way.

As good as Vontae is hes not a top 5 cb maybe a top 10.

If he were a top 5 corner he would have had no problem making the top 100 best players list. He wasn't close to that either.

I really believe Qua Cox would be a great #2..his style and attitude remind me of Richard Sherman..diamond in the rough MAYBE

[akcolt]

No, you just only remember the extremes. Name 4 bad games then.

He's usually very good and sometimes amazing and sometimes bad. It's 90% of the time very good.

I can't argue with you because you seem to not know much about DBs.

I wish we had a poster who played Division 1 S then he could explain everything to us and we wouldn't have to waste time thinking for ourselves and forming our own opinions. He would probably even know a lot about CB too!! I bet it would get boring  in a football forum being the only one to ever play or coach football though probably never gonna happen. Oh well we can always dream

[Jason_]

a corner could screw up a coverage causing the safety to appear to get toasted.

 

well will you look at that...it IS possible for you to say something other than "you're wrong".  You ARE capable of offering a counterpoint.  Will wonders never cease?  

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

Just regarding the last part...... do you think they would trade him even if they knew he was a top 10 corner atleast? A very nice mistake on Miami's part. I dont think hes the best, hes certainly good and your taking away from him on the last part bad in my opinion.

Good point I think they traded him because they thought he was a knuckle head.

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

I wish we had a poster who played Division 1 S then he could explain everything to us and we wouldn't have to waste time thinking for ourselves and forming our own opinions. He would probably even know a lot about CB too!! I bet it would get boring  in a football forum being the only one to ever play or coach football though probably never gonna happen. Oh well we can always dream

Thats right! Coffee has played & coached too.

[Coffeedrinker]

Your wrong!! I think I know plenty more than you about playing DB I played safety in a D1 program!! Thanks for your ignorance though!! Bad Games Arizona, Stl, Cinn, Houston, I also think he played poorly in the SD, & one of the Tenn games. Good try though living in your fantasy world. To be more accurate 70% of the time Very good & 30% percent of the time HORRIBLE!! The point is if in the 30% of horrible, say he would be average to good he just might be CLOSE to a top 5 corner, which at this time he doesn't, so at this point he is not. Another point if he is a top 5 corner why would Miami trade him when his contract was cap friendly at the time? HUMMMM because he isn't a top 5 corner!

Actually in the AZ game Bethea was the Colts top rated defensive player.  The Cincy game he was 3rd rated.

 

But he did not rate very high against StL, the first Titans game and the first Houston game

[Coffeedrinker]

I wish we had a poster who played Division 1 S then he could explain everything to us and we wouldn't have to waste time thinking for ourselves and forming our own opinions. He would probably even know a lot about CB too!! I bet it would get boring  in a football forum being the only one to ever play or coach football though probably never gonna happen. Oh well we can always dream

I don't know, playing at a high level like Division I does give one a different insight into the position than someone who just played in HS or did not play at all.  I mean really, the stuff I DON'T know could fill several libraries but I do have some knowledge of being a center than most people don't have because I played center for quite a while and I've coached the oline for even longer.  I know I have more knowledge about it than most other people.  It's not a bad thing, I like talking with people who know more about something than I do, it' helps me learn.

 

I disagree with HSH about Bethea, I think he was the Colts 3rd best defender last year (behind Mathis and Freeman) but I think he was more consistent than Freeman.  Freeman had some all pro games and some games where he disappeared, especially in the middle of the year.  Anyway to get back on track, but I do recognize that HSH probably looks at things differently than I do and probably sees some things that I, as a lifelong lineman, do not even know to look for.

[throwing BBZ]

Well in this case Howell has ALOT of work to do in his pass coverage! Looked lost at times.. If I'm reading this right you saying Bethae wasn't good in pass coverage?

He was our best coverage Saftey last year.. Landry can barely cover anyone, he can hit then and knock the ball loose occasionally but his zone coverage is not great and Howell was really up and down last year until he got hurt.

 

 Our best last year? WWhat does that have to with how good he is?

 He has NEVER been considered a good coverage guy. He grades Flat to NEGATIVE in that category. SF HAS a good deep safety.

[throwing BBZ]

I really believe Qua Cox would be a great #2..his style and attitude remind me of Richard Sherman..diamond in the rough MAYBE

 

 It is like you have no idea Qua is a 5'9" runt and is a horrible choice as an outside Press CB in our D. Just a WOW!!

[Gavin]

 It is like you have no idea Qua is a 5'9" runt and is a horrible choice as an outside Press CB in our D. Just a WOW!!

Being able to press and jam a receiver does not really rely on height

[throwing BBZ]

Your wrong!! I think I know plenty more than you about playing DB I played safety in a D1 program!! Thanks for your ignorance though!! Bad Games Arizona, Stl, Cinn, Houston, I also think he played poorly in the SD, & one of the Tenn games. Good try though living in your fantasy world. To be more accurate 70% of the time Very good & 30% percent of the time HORRIBLE!! The point is if in the 30% of horrible, say he would be average to good he just might be CLOSE to a top 5 corner, which at this time he doesn't, so at this point he is not. Another point if he is a top 5 corner why would Miami trade him when his contract was cap friendly at the time? HUMMMM because he isn't a top 5 corner!

 

 Yet he graded as the #2 press corner.

 Didn`t Miami draft him in the 1st round for some reason?

 BTW, a press corner getting beat even a number of times doesn`t mean he played horrible. Plain WACKY!!  Davis gave up 1 more TD pass than Patrick Peterson, have you heard of him?? Getting rid of Bethea is a start to improve our deep coverage, as Pagano suggested was his goal. Not that Landry isn`t a problem at that too!

[Bravo]

Our best last year? WWhat does that have to with how good he is?

He has NEVER been considered a good coverage guy. He grades Flat to NEGATIVE in that category. SF HAS a good deep safety.

I was talking about how you stated that maybe davis wouldn't be so inconsistent with "help" back there.... Simply saying that neither Howell or Landry are superior than Bathea was in coverage! Landry is actually awful in coverage and Howell didn't show much at all last year and gave up some pretty bad passes especially one vs Seattle I think... I'm not staying Antione was a good coverage safety just saying we are no better off now than what we were, unless Howell or someone else can prove to us otherwise.. They need to stay healthy first..

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

Actually in the AZ game Bethea was the Colts top rated defensive player.  The Cincy game he was 3rd rated.

 

But he did not rate very high against StL, the first Titans game and the first Houston game

We are talking about Davis coffee, the guy thinks Davis is a top 5 corner.