Colts History and a little about Johnny U

[The Old Crow]

damn, I would of never started this thread if I new it would cause this much of a commotion.

As I said in an previous post, I didn't know this topic had been already kicked around (sounds like

several times).

Since there wasn't much going on it would be a interesting topic.

Sorry, it wasn't my intention to start a war.

 

 

There is no commotion. Honestly, it is one thread among many. If people don't like the thread, hop off, and head to another one. You didn't do anything wrong.

[schwamm]

You never know, they got a lot of the stolen art back to the rightful owners from the Germans after WW2. This trophy is not quite on that scale, but still theft, and the Frontiere family should be forced to give it back.

Yes, this is equivalent to the extermination of a people, and the theft if their personal belongings... or at least very similar... or... or...

uhmmmm...

NOT AT ALL EVEN IN THE SAME UNIVERSE.

[The Old Crow]

It's not a war, it's the debate rekindled.  New folks join all the time and might not have been around for the others, so not all was a waste, yes?

 

The facts are the facts, it's just that many feel the other side is only present ting those which reflect better their position.  If you read it all, and toss out unsupported and/or emotional statements, you'll have a very good understanding of what essentially went down. 

 

 

Alright, now that I've had a chance to sit down. lets look at what Maryland gave Irsay at the end. This isn't my opinion, it is facts. In 1981, they gave Irsay one of the best deals in football. The rent would be 1 % of the first million in revenue, 2 % of the second million, and 3 % of the third million, and 10 % of revenues above 3.5 million.For the 1982 and 1983 seasons, the Colts would enjoy the second lowest rent in the NFL. This was 1981-1983. and all you heard from Irsay was why don't you treat me right in drunken airport press conferences. However, facts show that some Maryland officials like Baltimore Mayor Schaefer and Governor Hughes were doing all they could for Irsay. Remember, the economy in the late 70"s and early 80's wasn't that great in North East cities,  after the disastrous Carter administration. Sure you would like to build a new stadium, but the city had many priorities. They tried to help Irsay, as this proves.

 

Additionally, on March 21st, 1984, they put out an offer of 7.5 million to upgrade Memorial Stadium, guaranteed ticket sales of 43,000 , and a 15 million dollar loan at below market rates.In addition , the city promised to buy the Owings Mills practice facility, and rent it back to the Colts for one dollar a year. The state had also passed legislation repealing the 2 PM blue lwas for starting kickoffs.In addition, Schaefer got a gentleman's agreement that he would be called by Irsay before he was considering moving. This was, of course, broken, like most of Irsay's other promises. These were hardly actions of a city not trying to work with Irsay. Irsay was also leveraging three cities off each other to squeeze out every dollar possible. 

 

In Baltimore at that time , 1980, one quarter of the population lived below the poverty line. In the previous decade, the city had lost 13 % of it's population, and 50.000 jobs. between 1980-1983, another 20,000 jobs were lost. Those were tough times to get a stadium through, just so you understand the economic situation at the time. Despite all of this, a Sports Illustrated article at the time said Baltimore had the most attractive offer between Baltimore, Indy, and Phoenix. After word leaked out about Irsay's meeting with Arizona Governor Bruce Babbit following the Super Bowl, he abruptly cancelled it and called an improntu news conference at BWI Airport. Then he rambled after calling the news conference, " What are you all doing here ? 

[The Old Crow]

Yes, this is equivalent to the extermination of a people, and the theft if their personal belongings... or at least very similar... or... or...

uhmmmm...

NOT AT ALL EVEN IN THE SAME UNIVERSE.

 

 

I didn't say that at all. so don't put words in my mouth and try to be the political correctness police to score some cheap debate points. My point was it is not impossible to get back stolen goods... period.

[The Old Crow]

You and I covered this whole arguement ad nauseum last year. In fact, I've stayed away from this thread precisely because I didn't want to get into it with you again.

The fact that we see this issue from clearly opposite sides is not a problem for me. Unfortunately, your attitude ends up becoming an affront. You aren't any more correct, you just have a different opinion and perspective. It is OK for you to accept that and move on.

As for your comment above (and the earlier one that I am not going to bother to go back and find, stating that you hold season ticket holders accountable, but hold fans at home blameless) is confusing to me.

Fans pay for tickets and gear. That is what makes a team profitable. If fans aren't buying season tickets, they have NO SAY in what the team does to make itself successful. PERIOD. If there are empty seats in the stadium, it is the local fan who watches from home that is MOST at fault for a team leaving.

This is precisely why I've been an STH for as long as I've lived in Indy... even when they sucked every year.

 

 

Please feel free to exit the thread if I am an affront to you. Your fans also didn't support the Colts for periods of time like what happened in Baltimore. Fortunately for you, the son was more patient than the father. Using your logic, the Yankees should have left New York in the late 70's or early 80's. For most of Baltimore's football history, Colts and Ravens, most years have been complete sellouts, But you and others concentrate on the last six years, when they still averaged about 43,000 fans with one of the worst run football organizations of all time. So because of six years of attendance a bit below capacity, the fans are blamed for losing the team, when you had similar problems in Indy ? Look at the Colts from 78-83, 5-11, 5-11, 7-9, 2-14, 

[The Old Crow]

0-8-1, and 7-9. Just keep pointing out those last six years when any fanbase would have similar fall offs in attendance with such a poor product on the field. Lets face facts, you stayed away from the thread because you lost the debate.

[schwamm]

0-8-1, and 7-9. Just keep pointing out those last six years when any fanbase would have similar fall offs in attendance with such a poor product on the field. Lets face facts, you stayed away from the thread because you lost the debate.

First, I never lost the debate. I tired of your nonsense.

And the biggest problem with declining attendance in B'more was largely a craptastic stadium that your City refused to do anything about. Regardless, it was totally within Irsay Sr's rights to do with HIS BUSINESS as he pleased, and deemed best for it. He chose to move it to Indy.

It is LONG past time to get over it. It was so last year, and has been so for... ohhh... about twenty years.

As for your previous post, I've been paying to go to games since I first moved to Indy in '88, and have been a STH dating back to losing seasons, even through seasons where I was unemployed. I blamed the fact that Indy couldn't fill seats on uninvested fans for nearly 2 decades before the team saw any sustained success.

I'm happy for all the good "Luck" the team has been having lately, but am well aware that fair weather fans + more than one losing season could spell trouble here too. So I am personally invested in seeing that they stay.

I really don't care one bit that someone hangs a flag by their door and paints a room blue with a horseshoe on their wall... if they care about the Colts staying somewhere, they buy tickets whenever there are seats available.

[The Old Crow]

First, I never lost the debate. I tired of your nonsense.

And the biggest problem with declining attendance in B'more was largely a craptastic stadium that your City refused to do anything about. Regardless, it was totally within Irsay Sr's rights to do with HIS BUSINESS as he pleased, and deemed best for it. He chose to move it to Indy.

It is LONG past time to get over it. It was so last year, and has been so for... ohhh... about twenty years.

As for your previous post, I've been paying to go to games since I first moved to Indy in '88, and have been a STH dating back to losing seasons, even through seasons where I was unemployed. I blamed the fact that Indy couldn't fill seats on uninvested fans for nearly 2 decades before the team saw any sustained success.

I'm happy for all the good "Luck" the team has been having lately, but am well aware that fair weather fans + more than one losing season could spell trouble here too. So I am personally invested in seeing that they stay.

I really don't care one bit that someone hangs a flag by their door and paints a room blue with a horseshoe on their wall... if they care about the Colts staying somewhere, they buy tickets whenever there are seats available.

 

I was there at the last game of the Colts in Baltimore, and most of the other ones, as I still am with the Ravens. Great, we both have Season Tickets and attend a lot of games, but others couldn't. We both get cookies for being great fans. 

 

Look, we had a drop off in attendance when we were down, as did Indianapolis. Our attendance was all sellouts from 58-71, and attendance was, or near sellouts from 73-78. You and others focus on the last six years when we still averaged 43,000 fans, in a 54,000 stadium. Indianapolis was never subjected to an owner going from city to city offering his team for sale for the highest bidder. What do you think that does to fan morale and attendance ? You never had your owner attend a love in at Jacksonville Stadium when your team was still in your city. You never had an owner that salary dumped your best players like Bert Jones or Rodger Carr, despite having a generous deal by Baltimore as indicated in my last post. You never had an owner trade someone like John Elway for basically nothing. You can go on and on, but Baltimore fans did the best they could under trying circumstances. So really, we're talking six years out of 30 with the Baltimore Colts, followed by years of straight sellouts by the Ravens since 1996. Can you really tell me that was a good reason to pull the plug. 

 

Additionally, had Irsay not been an absentee owner, which he was, and put forth a good faith effort with local politicians and fans, I believe he would have eventually gotten a new stadium. If you examine why Modell left Cleveland, and why Irsay left Baltimore, it appears the same , but is like night and day. Being a Clevelander, Modell helped Cleveland by taking on the stadium lease, keeping it downtown, helping to keep the Indians, etc. He did things for the community that cost him money, while Irsay was only interested in his own bottom line. Modell got into financial trouble and always regretted his move, Irsay never gave it a second thought. Modell was wrong leaving Cleveland and it's fans, but he got himself over his head trying to help the city of Cleveland, which he eventually hurt. Irsay had no sense of community in Baltimore, and was looking to sell to the highest bidder from the beginning. Eminent Domain was the excuse and big lie Chernoff cooked up, but the real truth was as always, follow the money !

[schwamm]

I was there at the last game of the Colts in Baltimore, and most of the other ones, as I still am with the Ravens. Great, we both have Season Tickets and attend a lot of games, but others couldn't. We both get cookies for being great fans.

Look, we had a drop off in attendance when we were down, as did Indianapolis. Our attendance was all sellouts from 58-71, and attendance was, or near sellouts from 73-78. You and others focus on the last six years when we still averaged 43,000 fans, in a 54,000 stadium. Indianapolis was never subjected to an owner going from city to city offering his team for sale for the highest bidder. What do you think that does to fan morale and attendance ? You never had your owner attend a love in at Jacksonville Stadium when your team was still in your city. You never had an owner that salary dumped your best players like Bert Jones or Rodger Carr, despite having a generous deal by Baltimore as indicated in my last post. You never had an owner trade someone like John Elway for basically nothing. You can go on and on, but Baltimore fans did the best they could under trying circumstances. So really, we're talking six years out of 30 with the Baltimore Colts, followed by years of straight sellouts by the Ravens since 1996. Can you really tell me that was a good reason to pull the plug.

Additionally, had Irsay not been an absentee owner, which he was, and put forth a good faith effort with local politicians and fans, I believe he would have eventually gotten a new stadium. If you examine why Modell left Cleveland, and why Irsay left Baltimore, it appears the same , but is like night and day. Being a Clevelander, Modell helped Cleveland by taking on the stadium lease, keeping it downtown, helping to keep the Indians, etc. He did things for the community that cost him money, while Irsay was only interested in his own bottom line. Modell got into financial trouble and always regretted his move, Irsay never gave it a second thought. Modell was wrong leaving Cleveland and it's fans, but he got himself over his head trying to help the city of Cleveland, which he eventually hurt. Irsay had no sense of community in Baltimore, and was looking to sell to the highest bidder from the beginning. Eminent Domain was the excuse and big lie Chernoff cooked up, but the real truth was as always, follow the money !

Oy, but you are exhausting. I don't question your knowledge of history. It doesn't substantively differ from mine or others. But at some point, you have a vantage point, a perspective, a position you want to support. Others come from a different perspective, and yours is no more right than theirs.

You want to interpret motives behind actions, but somehow imagine your perspective doesn't color your interpretations? Really?

As I said a year ago, quit eating the sour grapes.

[The Old Crow]

First, I never lost the debate. I tired of your nonsense.

And the biggest problem with declining attendance in B'more was largely a craptastic stadium that your City refused to do anything about. Regardless, it was totally within Irsay Sr's rights to do with HIS BUSINESS as he pleased, and deemed best for it. He chose to move it to Indy.

It is LONG past time to get over it. It was so last year, and has been so for... ohhh... about twenty years.

As for your previous post, I've been paying to go to games since I first moved to Indy in '88, and have been a STH dating back to losing seasons, even through seasons where I was unemployed. I blamed the fact that Indy couldn't fill seats on uninvested fans for nearly 2 decades before the team saw any sustained success.

I'm happy for all the good "Luck" the team has been having lately, but am well aware that fair weather fans + more than one losing season could spell trouble here too. So I am personally invested in seeing that they stay.

I really don't care one bit that someone hangs a flag by their door and paints a room blue with a horseshoe on their wall... if they care about the Colts staying somewhere, they buy tickets whenever there are seats available.

Let me make a couple of other points about Memorial Stadium. Many of you in Indy call our old stadium crap, but many of us liked it, and had many fun memories there. It was named for our proud veterans of World War 2. In a survey of the worst five stadiums of the 1980's , Memorial Stadium wasn't even in there . The stadiums listed were Three Rivers , Riverfront, the astroDome, Fulton County, and Veterans Stadium. You still have Oakland's Stadium still around, and Soldier and Lambeau Field were older than dirt. But what you did not see in all these other places was a greedy owner hammering a city for every dollar . The stadium eventually needed to be replaced, but it was one of the worst economic times in the city. However, when you are an absentee owner from Chicago, and it's all about the money, who cares about the community or fans? All these other places had less than optimal stadiums, but they weren't going from city to city offering their team for sale, then demanding that the sad sack local fans fill the stadium at the same time!

[schwamm]

Let me make a couple of other points about Memorial Stadium. Many of you in Indy call our old stadium crap, but many of us liked it, and had many fun memories there. It was named for our proud veterans of World War 2. In a survey of the worst five stadiums of the 1980's , Memorial Stadium wasn't even in there . The stadiums listed were Three Rivers , Riverfront, the astroDome, Fulton County, and Veterans Stadium. You still have Oakland's Stadium still around, and Soldier and Lambeau Field were older than dirt. But what you did not see in all these other places was a greedy owner hammering a city for every dollar . The stadium eventually needed to be replaced, but it was one of the worst economic times in the city. However, when you are an absentee owner from Chicago, and it's all about the money, who cares about the community or fans? All these other places had less than optimal stadiums, but they weren't going from city to city offering their team for sale, then demanding that the sad sack local fans fill the stadium at the same time!

I went to a couple games there myself, and liked it. Doesn't mean it was in good repair, or safe for players or fans. It definitely needed repairs badly. I was only a very young kid, and could see that. It was set up better for watching baseball, anyway.

And regardless of the reasons you don't approve of Irsay's choice to move the team, it was none the less his choice. Not Baltimores.

[The Old Crow]

Oy, but you are exhausting. I don't question your knowledge of history. It doesn't substantively differ from mine or others. But at some point, you have a vantage point, a perspective, a position you want to support. Others come from a different perspective, and yours is no more right than theirs.

You want to interpret motives behind actions, but somehow imagine your perspective doesn't color your interpretations? Really?

As I said a year ago, quit eating the sour grapes.

I don't mean to be exhausting, and it has nothing to do with sour grapes . It's about putting a more full historical context to things, rather than the quick Wiki responses of some forum members, not necessarily you , or some of the others. We have all given some facts, and also mixed in some of our opinions and interpretations. There is nothing wrong with that, and makes for good debate. I'm sorry that the old cliches like get over it, bitterness, and sour grapes don't cut it with me. This story is very complex , and the reasons for it happening are a study in both sports and business. Like I've said, I don't let Baltimore off the hook either. I'm not trying to be repetitive either, but some new young Turks want to test my knowledge of the subject, which is fine. I'm also content to talk about draft issues, next NFL season, or any interesting topic. I like to believe I'm one of the more fair and balanced people in Baltimore about the move. I just think some Indy people want to put it all on Baltimore, because at some level, there is some shame on how the move went down. I know I'm not comfortable about how we got the Browns.

[schwamm]

I don't mean to be exhausting, and it has nothing to do with sour grapes . It's about putting a more full historical context to things, rather than the quick Wiki responses of some forum members, not necessarily you , or some of the others. We have all given some facts, and also mixed in some of our opinions and interpretations. There is nothing wrong with that, and makes for good debate. I'm sorry that the old cliches like get over it, bitterness, and sour grapes don't cut it with me. This story is very complex , and the reasons for it happening are a study in both sports and business. Like I've said, I don't let Baltimore off the hook either. I'm not trying to be repetitive either, but some new young Turks want to test my knowledge of the subject, which is fine. I'm also content to talk about draft issues, next NFL season, or any interesting topic. I like to believe I'm one of the more fair and balanced people in Baltimore about the move. I just think some Indy people want to put it all on Baltimore, because at some level, there is some shame on how the move went down. I know I'm not comfortable about how we got the Browns.

All fair enough. As for the shame: maybe Bob Irsay should feel some, maybe the B'more and Maryland politicians should feel some... heck, maybe even Indy and Indiana politicians should... but Indy fans? Not a chance. We didn't cause any of it.

I am aware of the entire history, I embrace all of it, I am entitled to celebrate all of it, and your interpretation of events don't entitle you to take any of it away from me or anyone else.

It is Colt history AND Baltimore history, not either or.

And strangely enough, I don't recall anyone posting anything close to "I bet Old Crow doesn't know about this...". No testing from my re-reads.

[The Old Crow]

I went to a couple games there myself, and liked it. Doesn't mean it was in good repair, or safe for players or fans. It definitely needed repairs badly. I was only a very young kid, and could see that. It was set up better for watching baseball, anyway.

And regardless of the reasons you don't approve of Irsay's choice to move the team, it was none the less his choice. Not Baltimores.

I think the stadium was actually in good repair and safe at the time. Irsay had a deal on the stadium from Maryland that had further upgrades and improvements in it . As I said in previous posts, Irsay had one of the best deals in the NFL in 1981. Because he brutally leveraged Baltimore against Jacksonville, Memphis, Phoenix, and Indy , the last deal Baltimore had on the table was the best of the remaining three. In the end, I guess it was Irsay's choice , but my point is it wasn't the fans fault, and Baltimore politicians weren't totally turning their backs to Irsay's demands . I think some of his more legitimate gripes were some of the seat sight lines, which could have been fixed, and the lack of skyboxes, which were becoming more important at the time. Extra renovations could have corrected that.

What you guys sometimes miss, is how Irsay 's constant threats of moving to different city's year after year since 1974, helped contribute to the paranoid mindset of some Maryland politicians that led to the stupid Eminent Domain legislative proposal. It was certainly a perfect storm.

[schwamm]

I think the stadium was actually in good repair and safe at the time. Irsay had a deal on the stadium from Maryland that had further upgrades and improvements in it . As I said in previous posts, Irsay had one of the best deals in the NFL in 1981. Because he brutally leveraged Baltimore against Jacksonville, Memphis, Phoenix, and Indy , the last deal Baltimore had on the table was the best of the remaining three. In the end, I guess it was Irsay's choice , but my point is it wasn't the fans fault, and Baltimore politicians weren't totally turning their backs to Irsay's demands . I think some of his more legitimate gripes were some of the seat sight lines, which could have been fixed, and the lack of skyboxes, which were becoming more important at the time. Extra renovations could have corrected that.

What you guys sometimes miss, is how Irsay 's constant threats of moving to different city's year after year since 1974, helped contribute to the paranoid mindset of some Maryland politicians that led to the stupid Eminent Domain legislative proposal. It was certainly a perfect storm.

Seriously? Good repair? I was only a freshman in HS the last time I was there, but there were grapefruit and melon sized rust holes in girders, and concrete abutments were visibly crumbling to the point of exposed rebar. I wasn't an architect then, but still knew enough to know that wasn't good.

[The Old Crow]

All fair enough. As for the shame: maybe Bob Irsay should feel some, maybe the B'more and Maryland politicians should feel some... heck, maybe even Indy and Indiana politicians should... but Indy fans? Not a chance. We didn't cause any of it.

I am aware of the entire history, I embrace all of it, I am entitled to celebrate all of it, and your interpretation of events don't entitle you to take any of it away from me or anyone else.

It is Colt history AND Baltimore history, not either or.

And strangely enough, I don't recall anyone posting anything close to "I bet Old Crow doesn't know about this...". No testing from my re-reads.

I'm not saying you should feel ashamed of having the Colts. You guys are good football fans and are happy to have pro football in Indy. You have been good fans for thirty years . I don't know, sometimes I wish we had gotten an expansion team in Baltimore rather than how we got the Browns . Like you guys, I was happy to have pro football, but wish we would have gotten it without hurting another city 's fans. That's all I'm saying. I have no problem with you guys embracing the Baltimore Colts. I'm glad you like them, as do I. It must have been some pretty good history because we are still talking about it 30 years later.

[The Old Crow]

Seriously? Good repair? I was only a freshman in HS the last time I was there, but there were grapefruit and melon sized rust holes in girders, and concrete abutments were visibly crumbling to the point of exposed rebar. I wasn't an architect then, but still knew enough to know that wasn't good.

I'm not saying it was paradise, but some of those things you cited could have been, and would have been repaired. The Orioles still used it for a few more years, and the Ravens used it for the first couple of years , but I'm not arguing it eventually needed to be replaced . Had Irsay been less abrasive, and Maryland politicians more far sighted, this would have never happened.

[Clem-Dog]

There is no commotion. Honestly, it is one thread among many. If people don't like the thread, hop off, and head to another one. You didn't do anything wrong.

This is your favorite thread.  Just admit it.

 

I look at the Colts as a significant other.  It fills me with pride that so many lust for her.

[The Old Crow]

This is your favorite thread.  Just admit it.

 

I look at the Colts as a significant other.  It fills me with pride that so many lust for her.

Sure I like the thread. Unlike other opposing fans, I have something in common with Colt fans, albeit a different era. Unlike Patriot fans, and as a Raven's fan , I can still appreciate the horse shoes . So you can count me as at least a half fan. I can't be a full fledged fan because I'm not from Indy, and in my young days the Indianapolis Colts didn't exist. I can only relate to the Baltimore Colts because that is what they were back then. That being said, I find the Indianapolis Colts as an always interesting opponent , with two of the greatest quarterbacks around in Manning and Luck. I'm glad I've had a chance to see both play in person .

[Nadine]

It's not really demonizing him, it's the way he was. I could pull you numerous quotes, but that is unnecessary. You just can't tell the full story of the Colts move without Bob Irsay's actions coming up, because it is a central part of the story, as is the failure of Baltimore politicians. They deserve some demonization. I liked Rosenbloom as a winning owner, but I think he was kind of greedy, and not the nicest person. Bob Irsay was a very good businessman and hard worker, there is no denying that. He was loyal to his son. No one is totally bad.

 

I don't think it 'just comes up'........I think there are still far to many people who enjoy remembering how much they hated him.........and they seem to think that because they hated him..........he was responsible for what they did.

 

There were a lot of players in this story but all people want to talk about is how much they agree that they hated him........and because he was so terrible...........they had no choice but to behave the way they did.

 

We all have a choice, the "he made me do it" argument is old.

 

 

Finding someone to blame (and then blaming them) may give us a substitute sensation for having solved a problem when we haven't really understood cause and effect at all. Sure, anger and self-righteousness are exciting feelings, but we mustn't become so hooked on excitement that we stop being able to see more subtle shades of cause and effect.

And let's not forget (as Basil Fawlty didn't) that blaming others is a neat little way of letting ourselves off the hook. We might say we want truth, but can we handle it?

- See more at: http://www.uncommonhelp.me/articles/stop-blaming-other-people/#sthash.LYjbhaQv.dpuf

 

[The Old Crow]

I don't think it 'just comes up'........I think there are still far to many people who enjoy remembering how much they hated him.........and they seem to think that because they hated him..........he was responsible for what they did.

 

There were a lot of players in this story but all people want to talk about is how much they agree that they hated him........and because he was so terrible...........they had no choice but to behave the way they did.

 

We all have a choice, the "he made me do it" argument is old.

Nadine, I get your drift, but I don't think it's about so much hate or blame, but correcting or adding to a historical event that happened long ago. Hate is a pretty strong word, but bad owner is fair. You are right about the many players were responsible for the relocation, and I think they have been appropriately pointed out on the Baltimore side.

Most of the comments I have to defend is that the Colts left because the fans of Baltimore were bad, we tried to steal the team through Eminent Domain, or our stadium was crap. While some of this is true, it didn't come out of a vacume, and there were certainly reasons why a fan base that mostly sold out games for 20 years , didn't the last six. The stadium wasn't the best, neither was the economic conditions in Baltimore. Would anyone have even thought about Eminent Domain had the owner not been on a nine year tour to sell the team ? To explain all of this, it's impossible not to include the central figure in this play, Bob Irsay. We all have our opinions, but the Bob Irsay record is there to examine for all, without any bias. The failures of the Maryland politicians are also there, and they continue to fail to this day, but that's another story.

In researching some of this stuff, I stumbled on some information about the Browns move to Baltimore. It's another fascinating story that I really hadn't looked into because I think it pained me how we got the Browns from Cleveland. I'm glad we got an NFL team, but it should have been through expansion. Jacksonville or Charlotte should never have gotten a team before Baltimore, but the Redskins owner and Taglibue, conspired against us getting a team.

Anyway, I appreciate you taking the time to make me a better person and forum poster. That is why you are my favorite moderator , because you care. Who says you can't teach an old crow , new tricks ! Lol

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

Alright, now that I've had a chance to sit down. lets look at what Maryland gave Irsay at the end. This isn't my opinion, it is facts. In 1981, they gave Irsay one of the best deals in football. The rent would be 1 % of the first million in revenue, 2 % of the second million, and 3 % of the third million, and 10 % of revenues above 3.5 million.For the 1982 and 1983 seasons, the Colts would enjoy the second lowest rent in the NFL. This was 1981-1983. and all you heard from Irsay was why don't you treat me right in drunken airport press conferences. However, facts show that some Maryland officials like Baltimore Mayor Schaefer and Governor Hughes were doing all they could for Irsay. Remember, the economy in the late 70"s and early 80's wasn't that great in North East cities,  after the disastrous Carter administration. Sure you would like to build a new stadium, but the city had many priorities. They tried to help Irsay, as this proves.

 

Additionally, on March 21st, 1984, they put out an offer of 7.5 million to upgrade Memorial Stadium, guaranteed ticket sales of 43,000 , and a 15 million dollar loan at below market rates.In addition , the city promised to buy the Owings Mills practice facility, and rent it back to the Colts for one dollar a year. The state had also passed legislation repealing the 2 PM blue lwas for starting kickoffs.In addition, Schaefer got a gentleman's agreement that he would be called by Irsay before he was considering moving. This was, of course, broken, like most of Irsay's other promises. These were hardly actions of a city not trying to work with Irsay. Irsay was also leveraging three cities off each other to squeeze out every dollar possible. 

 

In Baltimore at that time , 1980, one quarter of the population lived below the poverty line. In the previous decade, the city had lost 13 % of it's population, and 50.000 jobs. between 1980-1983, another 20,000 jobs were lost. Those were tough times to get a stadium through, just so you understand the economic situation at the time. Despite all of this, a Sports Illustrated article at the time said Baltimore had the most attractive offer between Baltimore, Indy, and Phoenix. After word leaked out about Irsay's meeting with Arizona Governor Bruce Babbit following the Super Bowl, he abruptly cancelled it and called an improntu news conference at BWI Airport. Then he rambled after calling the news conference, " What are you all doing here ? 

 

 The name Colts & the marching band are the only thing that belonged to Baltimore . Franchises move get over it . The Dallas Texans renamed The Colts kinda like The Cleveland Browns renamed the Ravens . The only thing original that Baltimore contributed to 2 different NFL franchises are names . There cities of origin elsewhere yet somehow the Colts move was different really in what way ?

 

Baltimore fans cry about Johnny U & Irsay trading him was'nt he 39 ?   This is a what have you done for me world & Unitas had done nothing for Irsay thats not to say Irsay was a nice guy I don't care it was his team to do with as he pleased & he did .

Franchise history

The Colts were the first NFL team to have cheerleaders and a marching band.^[1] The Colts were named after Baltimore's annual Preakness Stakes which is why many fans are bitter^{[according to whom?]} that Indianapolis retained the Colt team name. The Colts franchise was officially created in 1953, but can trace its history much earlier than that, to before the NFL actually began: its earliest predecessor was the Dayton Triangles, a founding member of the NFL that was originally created in 1913. Because of the link to the Dayton Triangles, the Colts can arguably claim to have played and won, on October 3, 1920, what could be considered the very first APFA/NFL game, with a 14-0 defeat of the Columbus Panhandles at Triangle Park. The team went through the following changes:

• Dayton Triangles relocated and was renamed Brooklyn Dodgers in 1930.
• Changed name to Brooklyn Tigers in 1944. In the same year, the Boston Yanks are founded.
• Merged with Boston Yanks in 1945 as the wartime "The Yanks".
• Brooklyn franchise canceled in 1945 by league and the team's players were given to the Boston Yanks, as a parallel team (AAFC New York Yankees) is founded by the Tigers' former owner, Dan Topping.
• Miami Seahawks of the AAFC are folded and replaced by a new franchise in Baltimore and named the Colts (Originally wearing Green and Silver). The Colts joined the NFL in 1950 This franchise was dissolved by the NFL on January 18, 1951.
• Boston Yanks were canceled upon request of team owner for tax purposes and he was given a new franchise for New York in 1949 and become New York Bulldogs and the New York Yanks in 1950, absorbing much of the Yankees' roster the next year.
• New York Yanks were canceled after the 1951 season and replaced in 1952 by the Dallas Texans.
• Texans owner returned the team to the NFL during mid season the Texans become a road team halfway through the 1952 season and folded after the season..
• Dallas Texans franchise was sold to Baltimore on January 23, 1953 where a new team was established resurrecting the "Colts" nickname, they kept the Texans team colors of blue and white. (these were also the original Dayton Triangles colors)

The AAFC Baltimore Colts

As the result of a contest in Baltimore, won by Charles Evans of Middle River, Md., the team was renamed the "Colts". On September 7, 1947, wearing the green and silver uniforms, the Colts, under Head Coach Cecil Isbell, won their initial AAFC game, 16–7, over the Brooklyn Dodgers. The team concluded its inaugural season before a record Baltimore crowd of 51,583 by losing to the New York Yankees, 21–7. The Colts finished with a 2–11–1 record, good for a fourth place finish in the Eastern Division. The Colts completed the 1948 season with a 7–8 record, tying the Buffalo Bills for the division title. The Colts compiled a 1–11 mark in 1949. Y. A. Tittle was the Colts starting quarterback.

The AAFC and NFL merged in 1950, and the Colts joined the NFL. After posting a 1–11 record for the second consecutive year, the franchise was dissolved by the league on January 18, 1951. But many Baltimore fans protested the loss of their team and continued to support the marching band (the second in professional football, after that of the Washington Redskins) and fan club, both of which remained in operation and worked for the team's revival.

NFL Dallas Texans

After two seasons without professional football, NFL Commissioner Bert Bell challenged Baltimore in December 1952 to sell 15,000 season tickets within six weeks in order to re-enter the NFL. That 15,000-ticket quota was reached in four weeks and three days. On January 23, 1953, under the principal ownership of Carroll Rosenbloom, the NFL sold Dallas Texans franchise to Baltimore where, keeping the “Colts” nickname, the Texans team colors of blue and white were inherited. This is the franchise that exists today in Indianapolis.^[2]

In Baltimore

In 1953, the second iteration of the Baltimore Colts took the field at Memorial Stadium on September 27 to face off against the Chicago Bears. The Colts would go on to win the game 13–9 and stun the Bears. The team's lack of experience showed as the team finished 3–9. In 1955, the Colts had 12 rookies make the team. In 1956, quarterback George Shaw went down with a serious injury in the fourth game of the season. The Colts' unproven backup, Johnny Unitas, would go on to win half the remaining eight games to give the Colts a record of 5–7 for the season.

The Colts won the NFL Championship in 1958 and repeated in 1959. The 1958 NFL Championship game is widely known as the "Greatest Game Ever Played" for its dramatic conclusion with quarterback Johnny Unitas marching the Colts downfield in sudden death overtime and Alan Ameche scoring the winning touchdown on a 1-yard run. Much of the credit for Baltimore's success went to Hall of Famers Johnny Unitas, halfback Lenny Moore, and wide receiver Raymond Berry.

Baltimore returned to the NFL championship game in 1964 but lost to the Cleveland Browns 24–0. In 1968, Unitas was injured and replaced by Earl Morrall who became the league's MVP. The 1968 Colts won their division with a 13–1 record and won the NFL championship game 34–0 over the Browns. The Colts' season ended with a shocking upset loss to the AFL New York Jets in Super Bowl III at the Miami Orange Bowl.

In 1970, the merger of the 16-team National Football League and the 10-team American Football League was finally completed with on-field realignment to create two 13-team "conferences" within the expanded 26-team NFL. All ten teams previously in the AFL were placed in the American Football Conference. Thirteen of the sixteen teams previously in the NFL were retained in the National Football Conference, but three old NFL teams (the Colts, the Pittsburgh Steelers, and the Cleveland Browns) were placed in the American Football Conference in order to equalize the two conferences.

That same year the Colts, still led by Johnny Unitas, won the AFC East Division title with a record of 11–2–1. In Super Bowl V the Colts won a close, low-scoring game against the Dallas Cowboys. With nine seconds left in the game placekicker Jim O'Brien kicked the game winning field goal which gave Baltimore its first Super Bowl championship. Later in the decade the Colts, led by new quarterback Bert Jones and running back Lydell Mitchell, won division titles in 1975, 1976, and 1977, but each time lost in the playoffs. Following this relative success in the 1970s, the Colts suffered a string of disappointing seasons, often finishing in last place in their division.

The move to Indianapolis

Main article: Baltimore Colts relocation to Indianapolis

The city of Indianapolis, Indiana made an offer for the Colts to move there. Baltimore was unsuccessful at persuading them to stay, so the city government attempted to get the state legislature to condemn the Colts franchise and give ownership to another group that would promise to keep the Colts in Baltimore. Oakland, California had just had some success in court trying the same tactic with the Oakland Raiders. Under the threat of eminent domain from the city of Baltimore, the team relocated to Indianapolis in the middle of the night. The city of Baltimore did not give up and sued to condemn the franchise anyway and seize ownership. Baltimore did not prevail in court,^[3] but eventually got a new NFL team when the Cleveland Browns moved there and formed an expansion franchise: the Baltimore Ravens.

[Blueblazes]

The "__________ Colts". It doesn't matter to me. As long as there is a "Colts" team in the NFL I don't think it will ever matter to me where they play. The Colts are bigger than any one thing. Its about the Blue and White, the Horseshoe. Not the city, owner, GM, QB or any other player. In my fan era I`ve watched Bert Jones, Mike Pagel, Jack Trudeau, Mark Hermann, Jeff George, Peyton Manning and now Luck to name a few as QB. Lydell Mitchell, Don McCauley, Joe Washington, Curtis Dickey, Randy McMillain, Albert Bentley, Eric Dickerson, Marshall Faulk, Edgerrin James as RB`s. They are a blend of 2 different cities yes but I don`t separate them as "Baltimore" or "Indy" players. They are all just "Colts" players to me and always will be. No one has changed me view on that in 35 years now and pretty certain no one will going forth. 

Couldn't have said it better.

[Blueblazes]

Yes wasn't that a HEARTBREAKER,Chester was wide open,Jones in NFL's Greatest Games replay of that say's "If only I had wait a couple extra seconds and then thrown the ball,,,,",I'm not saying Chester would of scored but he would of put us in position to kick for the win".........Then said "I think I'll go to my grave saying why didn't I wait a couple extra seconds and then thrown it",,,,,,,,,,Also the Colts were moving the ball well late in the game by mixing it up the short pass then a few runs,But  Ted Marchibroda pulled Jones 7 Lydal Michell over and said let's run the ball,,,,Jones & Michell disagreed but said he was the coach and u have to do what the coach says,,,,,,,,,,Even Monte Johnson of the Raiders commenting on the game said "what what happened its like they the Colts were playing not to win but to just eat the clock,,,,,,,,,He was baffled ,,,,,,,,,,,,,Also If Roger Carr had played a full game I think he may have play some we may have one that game,,,,,,,,,,,,,Also if Lyle Blackwood had' got hurt in the game early Casper may not have caught that ball the guy subbing for Lyle Blackwood was so out of position on Casper's catch,,,,,,,,,,,,

All excellent points on a historic game. The missed throw and Ted's conservatism stand out most to me. The other facts were huge as well.

[The Old Crow]

 The name Colts & the marching band are the only thing that belonged to Baltimore . Franchises move get over it . The Dallas Texans renamed The Colts kinda like The Cleveland Browns renamed the Ravens . The only thing original that Baltimore contributed to 2 different NFL franchises are names . There cities of origin elsewhere yet somehow the Colts move was different really in what way ?

 

Baltimore fans cry about Johnny U & Irsay trading him was'nt he 39 ?   This is a what have you done for me world & Unitas had done nothing for Irsay thats not to say Irsay was a nice guy I don't care it was his team to do with as he pleased & he did .

Franchise history

The Colts were the first NFL team to have cheerleaders and a marching band.^[1] The Colts were named after Baltimore's annual Preakness Stakes which is why many fans are bitter^{[according to whom?]} that Indianapolis retained the Colt team name. The Colts franchise was officially created in 1953, but can trace its history much earlier than that, to before the NFL actually began: its earliest predecessor was the Dayton Triangles, a founding member of the NFL that was originally created in 1913. Because of the link to the Dayton Triangles, the Colts can arguably claim to have played and won, on October 3, 1920, what could be considered the very first APFA/NFL game, with a 14-0 defeat of the Columbus Panhandles at Triangle Park. The team went through the following changes:

• Dayton Triangles relocated and was renamed Brooklyn Dodgers in 1930.
• Changed name to Brooklyn Tigers in 1944. In the same year, the Boston Yanks are founded.
• Merged with Boston Yanks in 1945 as the wartime "The Yanks".
• Brooklyn franchise canceled in 1945 by league and the team's players were given to the Boston Yanks, as a parallel team (AAFC New York Yankees) is founded by the Tigers' former owner, Dan Topping.
• Miami Seahawks of the AAFC are folded and replaced by a new franchise in Baltimore and named the Colts (Originally wearing Green and Silver). The Colts joined the NFL in 1950 This franchise was dissolved by the NFL on January 18, 1951.
• Boston Yanks were canceled upon request of team owner for tax purposes and he was given a new franchise for New York in 1949 and become New York Bulldogs and the New York Yanks in 1950, absorbing much of the Yankees' roster the next year.
• New York Yanks were canceled after the 1951 season and replaced in 1952 by the Dallas Texans.
• Texans owner returned the team to the NFL during mid season the Texans become a road team halfway through the 1952 season and folded after the season..
• Dallas Texans franchise was sold to Baltimore on January 23, 1953 where a new team was established resurrecting the "Colts" nickname, they kept the Texans team colors of blue and white. (these were also the original Dayton Triangles colors)

The AAFC Baltimore Colts

As the result of a contest in Baltimore, won by Charles Evans of Middle River, Md., the team was renamed the "Colts". On September 7, 1947, wearing the green and silver uniforms, the Colts, under Head Coach Cecil Isbell, won their initial AAFC game, 16–7, over the Brooklyn Dodgers. The team concluded its inaugural season before a record Baltimore crowd of 51,583 by losing to the New York Yankees, 21–7. The Colts finished with a 2–11–1 record, good for a fourth place finish in the Eastern Division. The Colts completed the 1948 season with a 7–8 record, tying the Buffalo Bills for the division title. The Colts compiled a 1–11 mark in 1949. Y. A. Tittle was the Colts starting quarterback.

The AAFC and NFL merged in 1950, and the Colts joined the NFL. After posting a 1–11 record for the second consecutive year, the franchise was dissolved by the league on January 18, 1951. But many Baltimore fans protested the loss of their team and continued to support the marching band (the second in professional football, after that of the Washington Redskins) and fan club, both of which remained in operation and worked for the team's revival.

NFL Dallas Texans

After two seasons without professional football, NFL Commissioner Bert Bell challenged Baltimore in December 1952 to sell 15,000 season tickets within six weeks in order to re-enter the NFL. That 15,000-ticket quota was reached in four weeks and three days. On January 23, 1953, under the principal ownership of Carroll Rosenbloom, the NFL sold Dallas Texans franchise to Baltimore where, keeping the “Colts” nickname, the Texans team colors of blue and white were inherited. This is the franchise that exists today in Indianapolis.^[2]

In Baltimore

In 1953, the second iteration of the Baltimore Colts took the field at Memorial Stadium on September 27 to face off against the Chicago Bears. The Colts would go on to win the game 13–9 and stun the Bears. The team's lack of experience showed as the team finished 3–9. In 1955, the Colts had 12 rookies make the team. In 1956, quarterback George Shaw went down with a serious injury in the fourth game of the season. The Colts' unproven backup, Johnny Unitas, would go on to win half the remaining eight games to give the Colts a record of 5–7 for the season.

The Colts won the NFL Championship in 1958 and repeated in 1959. The 1958 NFL Championship game is widely known as the "Greatest Game Ever Played" for its dramatic conclusion with quarterback Johnny Unitas marching the Colts downfield in sudden death overtime and Alan Ameche scoring the winning touchdown on a 1-yard run. Much of the credit for Baltimore's success went to Hall of Famers Johnny Unitas, halfback Lenny Moore, and wide receiver Raymond Berry.

Baltimore returned to the NFL championship game in 1964 but lost to the Cleveland Browns 24–0. In 1968, Unitas was injured and replaced by Earl Morrall who became the league's MVP. The 1968 Colts won their division with a 13–1 record and won the NFL championship game 34–0 over the Browns. The Colts' season ended with a shocking upset loss to the AFL New York Jets in Super Bowl III at the Miami Orange Bowl.

In 1970, the merger of the 16-team National Football League and the 10-team American Football League was finally completed with on-field realignment to create two 13-team "conferences" within the expanded 26-team NFL. All ten teams previously in the AFL were placed in the American Football Conference. Thirteen of the sixteen teams previously in the NFL were retained in the National Football Conference, but three old NFL teams (the Colts, the Pittsburgh Steelers, and the Cleveland Browns) were placed in the American Football Conference in order to equalize the two conferences.

That same year the Colts, still led by Johnny Unitas, won the AFC East Division title with a record of 11–2–1. In Super Bowl V the Colts won a close, low-scoring game against the Dallas Cowboys. With nine seconds left in the game placekicker Jim O'Brien kicked the game winning field goal which gave Baltimore its first Super Bowl championship. Later in the decade the Colts, led by new quarterback Bert Jones and running back Lydell Mitchell, won division titles in 1975, 1976, and 1977, but each time lost in the playoffs. Following this relative success in the 1970s, the Colts suffered a string of disappointing seasons, often finishing in last place in their division.

The move to Indianapolis

Main article: Baltimore Colts relocation to Indianapolis

The city of Indianapolis, Indiana made an offer for the Colts to move there. Baltimore was unsuccessful at persuading them to stay, so the city government attempted to get the state legislature to condemn the Colts franchise and give ownership to another group that would promise to keep the Colts in Baltimore. Oakland, California had just had some success in court trying the same tactic with the Oakland Raiders. Under the threat of eminent domain from the city of Baltimore, the team relocated to Indianapolis in the middle of the night. The city of Baltimore did not give up and sued to condemn the franchise anyway and seize ownership. Baltimore did not prevail in court,^[3] but eventually got a new NFL team when the Cleveland Browns moved there and formed an expansion franchise: the Baltimore Ravens.

 

Great research Adonis, but while factual, this is another Wiki-style account that lacks full substance, but it is a good resource. I have a better idea, an Old Crow three point plan to finally end the last of the bickering between Indy and Baltimore.

 

First, I'm going to fire up an old paneled van with a case of Natty Boh, and a cooler of crab cakes. I will be coming to Indy to pick up some of you guys to head to St. Louis. Before we head out though, we'll pick up some take out food from St. Elmo's and Kona Jacks. We will first head to the St. Louis courthouse and pick up a search warrant and seizure order, and take back the original Super Bowl 5 trophy from the Frontiere's, and you guys will take it back to LOS in triumph. Both Baltimore and Indy will have a Super Bowl 5 trophy to showcase to their fans, as we still have the other one. 

 

Next, we will get Jim Irsay and Steve Bisciotti together to agree to fly the old Baltimore Colt Championship banners in both Baltimore and Indy. That way, all can enjoy the history. Our final journey will be to the Hall of Fame, where we will get a stand alone section for the Baltimore Colt Hall of Famers next to the Indy Colt guys. After this exhaustive road trip, all will be well. 

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

What inaccuracies or is it just your opinion?

 

His opinion the facts just get in the way for Baltimore fans .  Crows  opinion is he can't be a Colts fan because he don't live in Indy .. I have to laugh I guess he does'nt realize there are Colts fans all around the U.S & World that don't live in Indy who don't share his view .

[The Old Crow]

All excellent points on a historic game. The missed throw and Ted's conservatism stand out most to me. The other facts were huge as well.

 

Hey diddle , diddle Lydell up the middle. You are right, Marchibroda's conservatism cost us in the Oakland game. 

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

Great research Adonis, but while factual, this is another Wiki-style account that lacks full substance, but it is a good resource. I have a better idea, an Old Crow three point plan to finally end the last of the bickering between Indy and Baltimore.

 

First, I'm going to fire up an old paneled van with a case of Natty Boh, and a cooler of crab cakes. I will be coming to Indy to pick up some of you guys to head to St. Louis. Before we head out though, we'll pick up some take out food from St. Elmo's and Kona Jacks. We will first head to the St. Louis courthouse and pick up a search warrant and seizure order, and take back the original Super Bowl 5 trophy from the Frontiere's, and you guys will take it back to LOS in triumph. Both Baltimore and Indy will have a Super Bowl 5 trophy to showcase to their fans, as we still have the other one. 

 

Next, we will get Jim Irsay and Steve Bisciotti together to agree to fly the old Baltimore Colt Championship banners in both Baltimore and Indy. That way, all can enjoy the history. Our final journey will be to the Hall of Fame, where we will get a stand alone section for the Baltimore Colt Hall of Famers next to the Indy Colt guys. After this exhaustive road trip, all will be well. 

 

No  bickering here Crow just a different way of looking back into the past for you its personnel for me its all about the facts & not revisionist history .

 

I personally enjoy the opportunity to learn more about my Colts history  & like you I'm a hard headed old dude jus trin to keep it real . We I'm sure will iron this out it'll jus  take some time ..

 

IMO your road trip between folks who love the Horse Shoe to unite two cities instead of divide a fan base is a great idea & a beautiful way to end this post in harmonious agreement

[The Old Crow]

His opinion the facts just get in the way for Baltimore fans .  Crows  opinion is he can't be a Colts fan because he don't live in Indy .. I have to laugh I guess he does'nt realize there are Colts fans all around the U.S & World that don't live in Indy who don't share his view .

 

Maybe if Baltimore didn't have a team, I could have been a Indy Colts fan. I really couldn't from 1984-1996, because I really didn't like some of the things Bob Irsay did. I will tell you guys this. When I first came on the forum, my view was like many from Baltimore with the team stealing stuff. In listening to you guys, I have a broader context from the Indy point of view of what went down with the relocation. So my views have moderated quite a bit. If you look at it through the prism of 30 years from a historical perspective, you realize Baltimore didn't do all it could to keep the Colts. Indianapolis wanted NFL football real bad, and who wouldn't, it sucks without the NFL in your town. Many of you like Bob Irsay, and because he brought you pro football, I get that. 

 

The thing about some of this discussion is of his ownership record in Baltimore, and I dare say it wasn't too good in Indy either. That is not to say the guy didn't have positive attributes. He was loyal to his family, and was a shrewd businessman, but like all very successful businessmen, very brutal in his methodology. I'm just trying to give some of you who are not familar with this subject, a Baltimore point of view you may not be aware of. That is what this is about. 

[The Old Crow]

No  bickering here Crow just a different way of looking back into the past for you its personnel for me its all about the facts & not revisionist history .

 

I personally enjoy the opportunity to learn more about my Colts history  & like you I'm a hard headed old dude jus trin to keep it real . We I'm sure will iron this out it'll jus  take some time ..

 

IMO your road trip between folks who love the Horse Shoe to unite two cities instead of divide a fan base is a great idea & a beautiful way to end this post in harmonious agreement

 

That three point plan would be pretty cool. You would certainly be invited on the road trip, and you Nadine, Schwamm, and ColtsBlueFL, could make the presentation of the Super Bowl 5 trophy to Jim Irsay , and display it next to the 2006 Super Bowl trophy. We don't mind the duplicate, because they forgot to put offensive line coach George Young on the original. 

[Nadine]

Nadine, I get your drift, but I don't think it's about so much hate or blame, but correcting or adding to a historical event that happened long ago. Hate is a pretty strong word, but bad owner is fair. You are right about the many players were responsible for the relocation, and I think they have been appropriately pointed out on the Baltimore side.

Most of the comments I have to defend is that the Colts left because the fans of Baltimore were bad, we tried to steal the team through Eminent Domain, or our stadium was crap. While some of this is true, it didn't come out of a vacume, and there were certainly reasons why a fan base that mostly sold out games for 20 years , didn't the last six. The stadium wasn't the best, neither was the economic conditions in Baltimore. Would anyone have even thought about Eminent Domain had the owner not been on a nine year tour to sell the team ? To explain all of this, it's impossible not to include the central figure in this play, Bob Irsay. We all have our opinions, but the Bob Irsay record is there to examine for all, without any bias. The failures of the Maryland politicians are also there, and they continue to fail to this day, but that's another story.

In researching some of this stuff, I stumbled on some information about the Browns move to Baltimore. It's another fascinating story that I really hadn't looked into because I think it pained me how we got the Browns from Cleveland. I'm glad we got an NFL team, but it should have been through expansion. Jacksonville or Charlotte should never have gotten a team before Baltimore, but the Redskins owner and Taglibue, conspired against us getting a team.

Anyway, I appreciate you taking the time to make me a better person and forum poster. That is why you are my favorite moderator , because you care. Who says you can't teach an old crow , new tricks ! Lol

 

I don't think anyone can watch The Band that wouldn't die without feeling the special bond that some fans had with their football team.  It was a different time and I think that NFL teams have lost that kind of connection with their fans.

 

And that's sad.

 

But it is what it is.........these days teams move.........fans complain every season they don't win the superbowl, ticket sales drop when you are losing..........many people cannot afford to go to an NFL game; fire everybody threads are created after losses and even after wins.........and communities are vocal in their irritation with any perceived tax break granted to a team.

 

and on and on and on.

 

I think though that the story of the Colts leaving baltimore........to me it was a like a very bad divorce.......there's the "he said"........the "she said".......and the truth.

 

When its been over and done for 30 years.......I think there is no point in talking about it anymore.  Treasure the memories and be glad to have been part of something special.

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

Maybe if Baltimore didn't have a team, I could have been a Indy Colts fan. I really couldn't from 1984-1996, because I really didn't like some of the things Bob Irsay did. I will tell you guys this. When I first came on the forum, my view was like many from Baltimore with the team stealing stuff. In listening to you guys, I have a broader context from the Indy point of view of what went down with the relocation. So my views have moderated quite a bit. If you look at it through the prism of 30 years from a historical perspective, you realize Baltimore didn't do all it could to keep the Colts. Indianapolis wanted NFL football real bad, and who wouldn't, it sucks without the NFL in your town. Many of you like Bob Irsay, and because he brought you pro football, I get that. 

 

The thing about some of this discussion is of his ownership record in Baltimore, and I dare say it wasn't too good in Indy either. That is not to say the guy didn't have positive attributes. He was loyal to his family, and was a shrewd businessman, but like all very successful businessmen, very brutal in his methodology. I'm just trying to give some of you who are not familar with this subject, a Baltimore point of view you may not be aware of. That is what this is about. 

 

I value your opinion for its sincerity & I recognize your love of the Colts , Whether you realize it or not your still a Colts fan a Closet Colts fan .    .. I remember a story I heard about Irsay firing Coach Marchibroada at halftime of a game & Jim Irsay fixing the situation a Baltimore fan related this to me elsewhere .So I realize Bob in Baltimore was very disrespectful in my opinion to Johnny U & other former Colts players & IMO that also was a issue 1 of many .

[BrentMc11]

I don't think anyone can watch The Band that wouldn't die without feeling the special bond that some fans had with their football team.  It was a different time and I think that NFL teams have lost that kind of connection with their fans.

 

And that's sad.

 

But it is what it is.........these days teams move.........fans complain every season they don't win the superbowl, ticket sales drop when you are losing..........many people cannot afford to go to an NFL game; fire everybody threads are created after losses and even after wins.........and communities are vocal in their irritation with any perceived tax break granted to a team.

 

and on and on and on.

 

I think though that the story of the Colts leaving baltimore........to me it was a like a very bad divorce.......there's the "he said"........the "she said".......and the truth.

 

When its been over and done for 30 years.......I think there is no point in talking about it anymore.  Treasure the memories and be glad to have been part of something special.

And we go back to back 11-5 after a 2-14 debacle....and people still complain.  So nice to have a winning team.

 

I love the Colts....Baltimore then...Indianapolis now.         !!!

[The Old Crow]

I value your opinion for its sincerity & I recognize your love of the Colts , Whether you realize it or not your still a Colts fan a Closet Colts fan .    .. I remember a story I heard about Irsay firing Coach Marchibroada at halftime of a game & Jim Irsay fixing the situation a Baltimore fan related this to me elsewhere .So I realize Bob in Baltimore was very disrespectful in my opinion to Johnny U & other former Colts players & IMO that also was a issue 1 of many .

As I value your opinion also. Sure I'm still a Colts fan. My

Memorabilia collection had a lot of Colts stuff. It's all good.

[King Colt]

What kept the Baltimore Colts the Indianapolis Colts was in part keeping the uniforms and "Colts" name. Had they changed the uniforms and team name completely most fans would have bailed for another team. Look also at if you don't live in either city the only thing that matters is "Colts". If they move to Biloxi, Mississippi next year and remain the "Colts" then order me up some grits and cornbread and call me a Colts fan!!

[Blueblazes]

Hey diddle , diddle Lydell up the middle. You are right, Marchibroda's conservatism cost us in the Oakland game. 

Many thoughts come to mind about that game. Can you imagine if we had Roger Carr healthy and slid Freddie Scott in the slot (pulling our FB out of the game), and having 3 WRs on the field and just let Bert call the plays with no influence from conservative Ted? Fun to think about.

[ColtsBlueFL]

I don't think it 'just comes up'........I think there are still far to many people who enjoy remembering how much they hated him.........and they seem to think that because they hated him..........he was responsible for what they did.

 

There were a lot of players in this story but all people want to talk about is how much they agree that they hated him........and because he was so terrible...........they had no choice but to behave the way they did.

 

We all have a choice, the "he made me do it" argument is old.

 

Exactly.  Bob was no saint, but the fans vilified him for his decisions (like trade of Johnny U, shopping team around to get better leverage in negotiations for better stadium/terms in Baltimore, etc...) thus putting more of the blame on him for the move, and not so much what the City, the State, and yes, the voters of Maryland themselves did to force the move. But I'm reminded of this statement by Chester Karrass - You don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate.

 

For all that can stomach the text, here are all of the courts proceedings and rulings in the City of Baltimore vs. the Indianapolis Colts.  Read for yourself such that you don't have to decipher truths presented through polarizing lenses of biased presenters. {from either side}

 

http://www.leagle.com/decision/1985902624FSupp278_1839.xml/M.%20&%20C.%20COUNCIL%20OF%20BALTIMORE%20v.%20B.%20FOOTBALL%20C.

 

http://www.leagle.com/decision?q=19841217733F2d484_11126.xml/INDIANAPOLIS%20COLTS%20v.%20MAYOR%20&%20CITY%20COUNCIL

 

http://www.leagle.com/decision?q=19841695741F2d954_11523.xml/INDIANAPOLIS%20COLTS%20v.%20MAYOR%20AND%20CITY%20COUNCIL

 

http://www.leagle.com/decision?q=1985952775F2d177_1923.xml/INDIANAPOLIS%20COLTS%20v.%20MAYOR%20&%20CITY%20COUNCIL%20OF%20BALTIMORE

 

Anytime Old Crow brings up an item, look and see what the courts have determined in the above articles.  My research indicates total legal costs for Indy were about $400,000 and nearly one half a million dollars for Maryland. And neither could get courts to make one side pay for the other; cover your own costs.

 

I'm still looking for official documents where everything tangible to the city of Baltimore was supposed to be given back to Baltimore...

 

No wiki style entertainment was used in the production of the post.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Great research Adonis, but while factual, this is another Wiki-style account that lacks full substance, but it is a good resource. I have a better idea, an Old Crow three point plan to finally end the last of the bickering between Indy and Baltimore.

 

First, I'm going to fire up an old paneled van with a case of Natty Boh, and a cooler of crab cakes. I will be coming to Indy to pick up some of you guys to head to St. Louis. Before we head out though, we'll pick up some take out food from St. Elmo's and Kona Jacks. We will first head to the St. Louis courthouse and pick up a search warrant and seizure order, and take back the original Super Bowl 5 trophy from the Frontiere's, and you guys will take it back to LOS in triumph. Both Baltimore and Indy will have a Super Bowl 5 trophy to showcase to their fans, as we still have the other one. 

 

Next, we will get Jim Irsay and Steve Bisciotti together to agree to fly the old Baltimore Colt Championship banners in both Baltimore and Indy. That way, all can enjoy the history. Our final journey will be to the Hall of Fame, where we will get a stand alone section for the Baltimore Colt Hall of Famers next to the Indy Colt guys. After this exhaustive road trip, all will be well. 

 

I think I see them... yes, off in the distance.  I see them!  Rainbows, butterflies, and unicorns!!  I see them!  ;)

[SOMDColtsfan]

What kept the Baltimore Colts the Indianapolis Colts was in part keeping the uniforms and "Colts" name. Had they changed the uniforms and team name completely most fans would have bailed for another team. Look also at if you don't live in either city the only thing that matters is "Colts". If they move to Biloxi, Mississippi next year and remain the "Colts" then order me up some grits and cornbread and call me a Colts fan!!

Agree with this. I still get that pride feeling now, as I did as a kid, when I see anything to do with the Colts. Visiting my in laws in Indy really gets me excited to walk into any retail store near Indy and see all the Colts "stuff" for sale. Everything here is Ravens and Redskins with some Steelers and Cowboys stuff sprinkled in. I STILL get that fuzzy feeling. And like King Colt said above a lot of that has to do with basically the same uniform and "Colts" never changing. I hope they never do! 

[ColtsBlueFL]

I'm still looking for official documents where everything tangible to the city of Baltimore was supposed to be given back to Baltimore...

 

 

OK, found it.  Final settlement for dismissal of condemnation suit.

 

http://account.archivestree.com/index.php/Pages/271

 

http://account.archivestree.com/index.php/Pages/689

 

Balt fans mad then, many still are.