Everything Trent Richardson

[AgentOrange]

Every NFL team has talent (except maybe the Raiders).  So what?

 

Again, for the hard of hearing... I haven't seen any posters here claim that TR will improve (at least not recently), only that there is hope he will.  It absolutely is pure speculation... and blind, unadulterated, unsubstantiated hope.  So what?

 

At its core, what is your point?

 

I'm not the one who wanted to make this discussion about the Browns. My point, which I made very clear earlier, is that, outside of QB, the Browns have the talent to be a winning football team. In fact, their defense is already good- that's not speculation. And if they can solve the QB position with Hoyer or someone else, they have the talent to be good on offense as well.

 

It's silly for posters here to try to make this discussion about the Browns, and when I respond, turn around ask me what my point is. If you don't want to discuss the merit of comments made, don't make the comments.

[schwamm]

I'm not the one who wanted to make this discussion about the Browns. My point, which I made very clear earlier, is that, outside of QB, the Browns have the talent to be a winning football team. In fact, their defense is already good- that's not speculation. And if they can solve the QB position with Hoyer or someone else, they have the talent to be good on offense as well.

It's silly for posters here to try to make this discussion about the Browns, and when I respond, turn around ask me what my point is. If you don't want to discuss the merit of comments made, don't make the comments.

Don't agree that tying your arguement about TR to your view of the Browns, but whatever. Strip that from my previous question.

In regards to your take on TR, and only on that...

What are you trying to prove? What is your core point?

To this point, and perhaps I haven't read your posts as carefully as needed, I see that you think TR sucks, that his past stats indicate that he will continue to suck, and that Grigs is stupid because he executed a stupid trade for a player who sucks.

Did I capture your intent? If not, can you fill in the gaps?

[AgentOrange]

Don't agree that tying your arguement about TR to your view of the Browns, but whatever. Strip that from my previous question.

I didn't tie TR to the conversation, others did.

In regards to your take on TR, and only on that...

What are you trying to prove? What is your core point?

I am not trying to prove anything. I respond to claims that are made. For example, someone claimed that TR regularly faced a "stacked box" while he was in Cleveland. I responded that he did not, and provided the evidence of this.

To this point, and perhaps I haven't read your posts as carefully as needed, I see that you think TR sucks, that his past stats indicate that he will continue to suck,

Incorrect. I have stated that TR's past performance has given no indication that he will improve. For example, when other posters point to his total numbers in Cleveland without digging deeper into YPC, context of TDs, etc.

 

and that Grigs is stupid because he executed a stupid trade for a player who sucks.

I have never used the word 'stupid' on this forum, nor have I commented on Grigson's overall performance as GM. I have stated that this trade was a mistake on his part, and that it is naive to believe he would repeat it, regardless of what he might say to the contrary.

Did I capture your intent? If not, can you fill in the gaps?

No, you did not.

[jvan1973]

Don't agree that tying your arguement about TR to your view of the Browns, but whatever. Strip that from my previous question.

I didn't tie TR to the conversation, others did.

In regards to your take on TR, and only on that...

What are you trying to prove? What is your core point?

I am not trying to prove anything. I respond to claims that are made. For example, someone claimed that TR regularly faced a "stacked box" while he was in Cleveland. I responded that he did not, and provided the evidence of this.

To this point, and perhaps I haven't read your posts as carefully as needed, I see that you think TR sucks, that his past stats indicate that he will continue to suck,

Incorrect. I have stated that TR's past performance has given no indication that he will improve. For example, when other posters point to his total numbers in Cleveland without digging deeper into YPC, context of TDs, etc.

and that Grigs is stupid because he executed a stupid trade for a player who sucks.

I have never used the word 'stupid' on this forum, nor have I commented on Grigson's overall performance as GM. I have stated that this trade was a mistake on his part, and that it is naive to believe he would repeat it, regardless of what he might say to the contrary.

Did I capture your intent? If not, can you fill in the gaps?

No, you did not.

ok, point taken. Why are you still here?

[AgentOrange]

ok, point taken. Why are you still here?

I'm sorry, is there a rule stating that I cannot be?

I am regularly in conversations with other posters regarding the subject of Alex Mack, the Browns' cap situation, etc. While you may not have interest in conversing with me, other posters have asked me questions on these subjects several times.

[Modern]

Trent really does stink. Just sayin'.

[YOUR GM]

Definitive proof of what?

My only statement in what you quoted above is that the Browns had talent. I didn't say their record was going to be better this year. I didn't say they were going to make the playoffs.

Saying that TR will improve is pure speculation.

Saying the Browns have talent is based on facts.

Don't put words in my mouth. You're arguing against a position I never took.

Lol, you've resorted to word pinching now? Fine, you win. The Browns have talent..... And still suck

"We may not win games, but we sho is talented though :D"

[AgentOrange]

Lol, you've resorted to word pinching now? Fine, you win. The Browns have talent..... And still suck

"We may not win games, but we sho is talented though :D"

 

Whenever you're comfortable getting back to the subject of the thread, let me know.

[YOUR GM]

Whenever you're comfortable getting back to the subject of the thread, let me know.

Your myopic view point and hypocrisy is very much relevant to the "discussion"

[AgentOrange]

I have already addressed your terrible comparison of judging TR by his past vs judging the Browns by their past.

Did you have another example?

Edited March 22, 2014 by 21isSuperman

[YOUR GM]

I have already addressed your terrible comparison of judging TR by his past vs judging the Browns by their past.

Did you have another example?

Actually, you didn't. Richardson will likely be running behind a completely different interior line next season, going into his 2nd year in the system. That is just as much relevant to his production level as a new regime is to your organizations future outlook.

Edited March 22, 2014 by 21isSuperman

[schwamm]

 

Don't agree that tying your arguement about TR to your view of the Browns, but whatever. Strip that from my previous question.

I didn't tie TR to the conversation, others did.

In regards to your take on TR, and only on that...

What are you trying to prove? What is your core point?

I am not trying to prove anything. I respond to claims that are made. For example, someone claimed that TR regularly faced a "stacked box" while he was in Cleveland. I responded that he did not, and provided the evidence of this.

To this point, and perhaps I haven't read your posts as carefully as needed, I see that you think TR sucks, that his past stats indicate that he will continue to suck,

Incorrect. I have stated that TR's past performance has given no indication that he will improve. For example, when other posters point to his total numbers in Cleveland without digging deeper into YPC, context of TDs, etc.

and that Grigs is stupid because he executed a stupid trade for a player who sucks.

I have never used the word 'stupid' on this forum, nor have I commented on Grigson's overall performance as GM. I have stated that this trade was a mistake on his part, and that it is naive to believe he would repeat it, regardless of what he might say to the contrary.

Did I capture your intent? If not, can you fill in the gaps?

No, you did not.

All nonsense aside, I'm interested on trying to find just enough common ground to resolve this.

So the thing I take issue with in you comment about the Browns is that it shouldn't matter who brought it up. Please acknowledge that you are not the only one entitled to make or initiate valid points in a conversation.

As for the rest, it has appeared, at least to me, that you've been trying to tell me why I'm not entitled to my (probably irrational) hope for something better from TR.

And it has appeared, at least to me, that you want me to be convinced that a #26 overall was some kind of rediculous price, when I'm not otherwise inclined to feel that way, and you've shared no information to change my mind.

So what that people want to see what an improved line, improved play calling, and improved knowledge of the playbook might do to his performance? Why do you care? You are absolutely entitled to share your thoughts on the matter, and you have done do, seemingly as nauseum.

He isn't a Brown anymore, and can't be the excuse for the Browns failings anymore... so why is it so important for you to repeatedly assert your "rightness" in a situation where most don't disagree that he isn't good and the trade wasn't good?

I am not trying to be an *. I seriously don't get your intention.

[NewEra]

What I find funny is browns fans so obsessed with Trent. IMO without Trent being here we would of been in worse shape than him being here. Was it a steep price? Sure. Feel better? Trent didn't lose the talent he had coming out of college. The talent that made people talk about him being the top back coming out. Sometimes when you get drafted by a crap team. You get big headed and put yourself above the team. I didn't see that here. I saw a guy struggling to fit in. With all that said. I still believe we haven't begun to see what Trent can do.

[AgentOrange]

Actually, you didn't.

 

Actually, I did.

I am comparing Trent Richardson with no one but himself. You are comparing the current Browns with former Browns, even though the team has nearly completelt turned over, from ownership all the way down to the practice squad.

 

As for TR, your argument that a completely different o-line should somehow make a difference isn't comparable. TR played behind the 5th ranked o-line in the league his rookie campaign, and still underwhelmed. Furthermore, countless examples - photographic evidence even - have been provided showing that TR did have holes, he just didn't see them.

Does this mean he can't improve? No. But revamping your o-line isn't going to be some magic spell that turns TR into a productive RB. What needs fixed isn't your o-line, it's TR.

[YOUR GM]

Actually, I did.

I am comparing Trent Richardson with no one but himself. You are comparing the current Browns with former Browns, even though the team has nearly completelt turned over, from ownership all the way down to the practice squad

What's funny is, you act like this is the Browns first overhaul in many years. By my count, you had at least 3-4 in the past 5 years, and look at the results. My point stands. Same old Brownies. Deal with it

[AgentOrange]

All nonsense aside, I'm interested on trying to find just enough common ground to resolve this

So the thing I take issue with in you comment about the Browns is that it shouldn't matter who brought it up. Please acknowledge that you are not the only one entitled to make or initiate valid points in a conversation.

 I did not say this. I did not bring up the Browns in this conversation. They were brought up by others, and directed at me. So it's silly to ask me what my point is when I'm merely replying to other posters.

As for the rest, it has appeared, at least to me, that you've been trying to tell me why I'm not entitled to my (probably irrational) hope for something better from TR.

Nope, not at all - hope away. The only thing I have addressed is different people's reasons for their hope.

And it has appeared, at least to me, that you want me to be convinced that a #26 overall was some kind of rediculous price, when I'm not otherwise inclined to feel that way, and you've shared no information to change my mind.

What has TR contributed to your team to convince you that he was worth the pick? I'm certainly not saying he never can be, but there has been no evidence of this thusfar. Look at other players who have been traded for #1 picks and compare TR's performance to theirs.

So what that people want to see what an improved line, improved play calling, and improved knowledge of the playbook might do to his performance? Why do you care? You are absolutely entitled to share your thoughts on the matter, and you have done do, seemingly as nauseum.

There are flaws in TR's game, which have been pointed out, which cannot be attributed to the things you list above. As for me 'sharing ad nauseum,' I only comment in response to other posters. If my comments have been repeated, it is because the claims in which they reply to have been repeated

 why is it so important for you to repeatedly assert your "rightness" in a situation where most don't disagree that he isn't good and the trade wasn't good?

It is important that people have correct information when formulating an opinion. Furthermore, many have disagreed that he isn't any good thusfar and that the trade was bad- see New Era's comment right above this one. Otherwise I would have nothing to reply to. Nor would Modern or Esmort, yet here they are too.

 

[AgentOrange]

What's funny is, you act like this is the Browns first overhaul in many years. By my count, you had at least 3-4 in the past 5 years, and look at the results. My point stands. Same old Brownies. Deal with it

I fail to see what any previous overhauls have to do with current the Browns. There is no one currently associated with this team that was associated with the team 5 years ago.Your point does stand - just as terribly as it did before.

[YOUR GM]

I fail to see what any previous overhauls have to do with current the Browns. There is no one currently associated with this team that was associated with the team 5 years ago.Your point does stand - just as terribly as it did before.

And that's precisely the problem -- You have no stability. It doesn't matter who you bring in, you will continue to lose because of your ownership's impatience. Even if you do land the right coach, his leash will be so short that it won't even matter.

 

Edited March 22, 2014 by 21isSuperman

[AgentOrange]

And that's precisely the problem -- You have no stability. It doesn't matter who you bring in, you will continue to lose because of your ownership's impatience. Even if you do land the right coach, his leash will be so short that it won't even matter.

My point still stands -- Browns suck

 

I see you are still uncomfortable discussing Trent Richardson. I will wait until you are ready.

[YOUR GM]

I see you are still uncomfortable discussing Trent Richardson. I will wait until you are ready.

I don't care about Trent Richardson. I'm pretty sure you can search my post history and find many disparaging posts about him from me. I've been one of the few people who hated the trade from the start, and his play has done little to inspire me.

Edited March 22, 2014 by 21isSuperman

[jvan1973]

I fail to see what any previous overhauls have to do with current the Browns. There is no one currently associated with this team that was associated with the team 5 years ago.Your point does stand - just as terribly as it did before.

that's been the case for quite sometime now.

[AgentOrange]

I don't care about Trent Richardson. I'm pretty sure you can search my post history and find many disparaging posts about him from me. I've been one of the few people who hated the trade from the start, and his play has done little to inspire me. What irritates me more, however, is your presence here, for no other reason than to be a pest. And even more irritating than that is this guise of "intellectual debate" you use to try and cover it. Only when you are confronted with the same narrow-minded logic you use yourself, you want to start playing by rules. You're so transparent, it's funny

The fact that you dislike my factual statements does not make me a "pest," it means you dislike the truth. However, given your comments today, I can honestly say I am not terribly disappointed to be getting under your skin, even if that wasn't my goal.

[YOUR GM]

The fact that you dislike my factual statements does not make me a "pest," it means you dislike the truth. However, given your comments today, I can honestly say I am not terribly disappointed to be getting under your skin, even if that wasn't my goal.

Psh, stay classy

And for the record, what you say doesn't annoy me-- Your denial that you are a troll does

[schwamm]

All nonsense aside, I'm interested on trying to find just enough common ground to resolve this

So the thing I take issue with in you comment about the Browns is that it shouldn't matter who brought it up. Please acknowledge that you are not the only one entitled to make or initiate valid points in a conversation.

I did not say this. I did not bring up the Browns in this conversation. They were brought up by others, and directed at me. So it's silly to ask me what my point is when I'm merely replying to other posters.

As for the rest, it has appeared, at least to me, that you've been trying to tell me why I'm not entitled to my (probably irrational) hope for something better from TR.Nope, not at all - hope away. The only thing I have addressed is different people's reasons for their hope.

And it has appeared, at least to me, that you want me to be convinced that a #26 overall was some kind of rediculous price, when I'm not otherwise inclined to feel that way, and you've shared no information to change my mind.

What has TR contributed to your team to convince you that he was worth the pick? I'm certainly not saying he never can be, but there has been no evidence of this thusfar. Look at other players who have been traded for #1 picks and compare TR's performance to theirs.

So what that people want to see what an improved line, improved play calling, and improved knowledge of the playbook might do to his performance? Why do you care? You are absolutely entitled to share your thoughts on the matter, and you have done do, seemingly as nauseum.

There are flaws in TR's game, which have been pointed out, which cannot be attributed to the things you list above. As for me 'sharing ad nauseum,' I only comment in response to other posters. If my comments have been repeated, it is because the claims in which they reply to have been repeated

why is it so important for you to repeatedly assert your "rightness" in a situation where most don't disagree that he isn't good and the trade wasn't good?

It is important that people have correct information when formulating an opinion. Furthermore, many have disagreed that he isn't any good thusfar and that the trade was bad- see New Era's comment right above this one. Otherwise I would have nothing to reply to. Nor would Modern or Esmort, yet here they are too.

Maybe we're getting closer to an understanding... but I'm not seeing it just yet. I still struggle to understand why you care what gives me hope.

And your "facts" have so far been sternly stated opinions, based on cherry-picked stats, in my opinion. Yards per touch by itself is no more relevant that total yards from scrimmage by itself. Your conviction otherwise does not make them magically turn into actual fact.

As for your dismissal of the reasons I listed why many HOPE for better from TR in the face of his performance to date... Let me bore you to tears with a little story...

About 15 years ago, I was starting to gain traction in my career, and had a very promising opportunity that involved changing companies and accepting a significant increase in responsibility. I did so enthusiastically, and dove in with every ounce of energy I had.

Unfortunately, it didn't take long to learn my direct supervisor was in way over his head, and he constantly left me underfunded, with less than sufficient time and half the necessary information to correctly complete my job. Worse still, he threw me under the bus every chance he had, over the course of the nearly 3 years we worked together, to the point that I developed a reputation for being ineffective.

That guy left the company to chase his own better opportunity, and at first, my new manager was convinced I was the liability he'd been told I was. Frankly, I was starting to believe it too. However, the new guy was far more prepared and knowledgable than his predecessor, and he consistently provided me with all the resources I needed.

It took about 9 months for him to realize he was mistaken about me, and that I was outperforming most of my peers. Thankfully, he was generous with sharing accolades, and until I went out on my own a few years back, I flourished in the rest of my career there.

That, in essence, is why I cling to the improbable hope that changing circumstances can lead to a better TR.

Then again, I'm the nut job that still believes that had Ryan Leaf initially gone to a club that would have put a tighter rein on his ego, he might have actually succeeded in the NFL... Yeah, I believe situation is everything.

[schwamm]

Oh, and I am one who believes the confluence of Irsay, Polian, Dungy and Manning are the entire reason anyone cares about the Colts at all now. Again, it all comes down to situation for me.

I would think you'd want to believe the same way. Otherwise, how would you ever be able to hope for better results from your historically inept team.

[Dustin]

If Storm Johnson is there in rnd 2, what do you do?

Pass because im not an * he's a late round prospect.

[1yrdandacloudofdust]

Pass because im not an * he's a late round prospect.

Yeah, I just saw that today. They're saying he's a 3rd/4th rnd guy. Well, I bet he'll be better than Trent.

[Gavin]

Storm Johnson also puts the ball on the ground to much and lacks great vision and burst

[esmort]

What I find funny is browns fans so obsessed with Trent. IMO without Trent being here we would of been in worse shape than him being here. Was it a steep price? Sure. Feel better? Trent didn't lose the talent he had coming out of college. The talent that made people talk about him being the top back coming out. Sometimes when you get drafted by a crap team. You get big headed and put yourself above the team. I didn't see that here. I saw a guy struggling to fit in. With all that said. I still believe we haven't begun to see what Trent can do. That and the browns are still garbage.

 

You will have to explain the logic behind the bolded ... I don't see how anyone could really believe that.

[NewEra]

You will have to explain the logic behind the bolded ... I don't see how anyone could really believe that.

We would of had only donald brown. Who still couldn't block. And either rookies or possibly a McGhee type signing. With Trent he still has the potential to develop. If he doesn't improve this year them I will be right there with you ready to pack his bags.

[esmort]

We would of had only donald brown. Who still couldn't block. And either rookies or possibly a McGhee type signing. With Trent he still has the potential to develop. If he doesn't improve this year them I will be right there with you ready to pack his bags.

 

We could have picked up a free agent who would have contributed as much (and likely more) than TR did for this past season.

 

Better off?..... Let''s see....

 

With Trent Richardson ... we paid him $1.165 million in 2013 for pretty much nothing.  We will pay him $2.252 mil in 2014 , and $3.184 mil in 2015.  That's all guaranteed, so TR's cost for 3 years (1 year wasted) = ~$6.6 mil  +  1st round draft pick.  So even if TR performs at a avg RB level this upcoming season we are going to essentially be giving a 1st round pick for a RB with only 2 yrs left on his contract for, and paying him $5.3 million all guaranteed.  Oh, but wait a minute you say don't forget that 5th year option ... well ok ... we have to decide that after this year and it will cost ~$7+ million (average of 10 RB salaries) for that extra year.

 

----Now let's compare that to where we would be if we had chosen not to trade for Richardson ...

 

Let's say we wanted to draft a RB early in the 2014 draft, and we even decide to use a 2nd round pick.  For comparison sake we will use Eddie Lacys contract since he was taken at #61 (our 2nd round pick is #59).  Eddie Lacy's total contract is 4 yrs/$3.4 million total with ~$1 mil guaranteed.  So if we had done this we would still have our 1st rnd draft pick, a chance to choose from many good RBs who will still be on the board with our 2nd, and would have a RB on a longer contract for less money, who we can cut after the 1st year with little to no dead cap money if he were a bust.

 

 

There is almost no scenario where I think we are better off with him than without him.  Unless Richardson was to perform at the level of a top 3 Rb for the last 2 yrs of his contract there is no way we are better off.  Sure there is a slim chance, but do you honestly think Richardson is going to be a top 3 RB both of his next two seasons?  Even if he did perform at that level it would still be a little difficult for me to justify the trade since we would only have him for 2 seasons and then he would want a huge contract.

[Modern]

Trent is bad, there is no statistic or film to say otherwise.

[Modern]

You have to look at it one of 2 ways. Either the stars all aligned and Trent Richardson was somehow plagued with all 200 excuses being made for why he stinks, or he just stinks. Which one seems more reasonable and likely ?

[IndyScribe]

Trent is bad, there is no statistic or film to say otherwise.

So Trent being bad is your opinion.

[Modern]

No I think he is awesome. I dont fall for all the numbers and statistics, I know that he is a beast. He is probably gonna go down in history as the greatest ever.

[Gavin]

No I think he is awesome. I dont fall for all the numbers and statistics, I know that he is a beast. He is probably gonna go down in history as the greatest ever.

Dont you ever get tired of the Trent bashing, we get it you hate him, you hate the trade(Im on board with you there but unlike you I learned to just deal it it, Its done), you think he is a terrible running back(granted he does have to improve and that goes beyond the numbers) and a poor excuse for a human being

[HOZER]

No I think he is awesome. I dont fall for all the numbers and statistics, I know that he is a beast. He is probably gonna go down in history as the greatest ever.

FINALLY YOU GET IT!!!!!! geez.......

[Modern]

Dont you ever get tired of the Trent bashing, we get it you hate him, you hate the trade(Im on board with you there but unlike you I learned to just deal it it, Its done), you think he is a terrible running back(granted he does have to improve and that goes beyond the numbers) and a poor excuse for a human being

[dudeski]

Trich is awesome

Should have a stellar year ahead of him

[pacolts56]

Dont you ever get tired of the Trent bashing, we get it you hate him, you hate the trade(Im on board with you there but unlike you I learned to just deal it it, Its done), you think he is a terrible running back(granted he does have to improve and that goes beyond the numbers) and a poor excuse for a human being

Uhhhh, Gavin.....when they pin a thread allowing endless criticism of a Colts player....it's exactly what your gonna get.

 

I can see the point of discussing it for a while, but it's now become a playground-level argument that evidently won't end until Trent shuts his haters up by running for 2000 yards in a season and scores 4 TDs in a Colts Super Bowl victory......OR.....his supporters surrender and proclaim it the worst trade since Esau traded his birthright to Jacob for a bowl of chili.

 

The horse has been beaten into pink slime.....and this thread needs to go away.