Our Future Center

[CanuckColt]

Weight is not the be all and end all... you get more push from lower body explosive strength than you do from pure weight.

 

I don't think anyone can claim a fourth rounder that hasn;t played can be our future at Center, but it is clear Satale isn't either.

 

I expect Satele to be cut in the off-season, and a vet brought in to at least compete with Holmes for the job.

Yeah, a vet like Mack.   "Quality" over "Quantity".

[CanuckColt]

Should never have gotten rid of A.Q. Shipley 

We probably should not have traded him...but he is not good enough to be our starter for the future.

[Dickerson29]

.

Exactly it wasn't Ryan Grigson's call. I posted a quote from Grigson earlier in the season where he said he'd rather start a rookie CB than a rookie oline

Grigson was asked if he had to start a rookie CB or a rookie olineman, which way would he go, thats different that what you're saying. Different context

[Colts_Fan12]

Needs to be Alex Mack and Asamoah should play next to him with thorton as a backup learning

[AntonMcG]

Yeah, a vet like Mack.   "Quality" over "Quantity".

 

He'll be arguably the most in demand FA this year... pretty unlikely we get him without paying him crazy money.

[AntonMcG]

There are built in checkdowns quite a bit or receivers out in flats

 

With three receiving options? Checkdowns don't work very well with 8 in the box.

[esmort]

Grigson was asked if he had to start a rookie CB or a rookie olineman, which way would he go, thats different that what you're saying. Different context

^^^This

 

I'm just going by what I read here

@TribStarTJames: @Colts_Comments remember what Grigson said at the combine about not being big on starting rookie offensive linemen?

@OllyDawes: Extended quotes from Ryan Grigson on rookie offensive linemen vs rookie cornerbacks.

Edit: Link didn't work

 

As BOTT and Dickerson said Grigson's statement always gets misquoted or taken out of context. People really need to watch the video so they can hear the context in which the question was asked and exactly how Grigson answered.

 

It was essentially a hypothetical posed to Grigson by one of the journalists that was something along the lines of, "If you were forced to choose to start either a rookie DB or a rookie offensive linemen, which would you choose" He answers the question and says he would choose DB, but definitely does not say he is "against starting rookie offensive linemen" or has a "rule about not starting rookie offensive linemen"; he doesn't even actually say he would "prefer not to start a rookie offensive linemen"

 

Here is the video; the question is asked at about 8:25 mins ... you have to listen closely because it is very hard to hear the guy asking the question.

 

http://www.colts.com/videos/videos/2013-NFL-Combine-Grigson-Press-Conference/27e174ef-9bd9-4047-b923-7de7930881f0

[Gavin]

Coaches probably give Holmes a shot and Grigson probably signs a no namer......I wouldn't but I bet that's what Grigson does

[Gavin]

With three receiving options? Checkdowns don't work very well with 8 in the box.

TE out in the flat or rb out in the flat or TE in the vacated area left by the linebacker, Many ways to get that 8th player out of the box

[jwilli69]

Could be an option if he is healthy an knows the playbook and calls correctly. However there is also risk involves in that if it doesn't work, we are tampering with the chemistry of the line heading into the playoffs.

Tampering with the oline worked pretty well for the Ravens last year. When you have a far inferior product as the colts do right now, you have little risk for making it worse but a bigger upside. May not work out but I agree, try out anyone else at center while you have this rare luxury.

[#87WayneFanHe'sTheMan]

Tampering with the oline worked pretty well for the Ravens last year. When you have a far inferior product as the colts do right now, you have little risk for making it worse but a bigger upside. May not work out but I agree, try out anyone else at center while you have this rare luxury.

 

And then the coaches can stick Satele right back in there when hes healthy so that us fans can complain some more?  ;)

[AntonMcG]

TE out in the flat or rb out in the flat or TE in the vacated area left by the linebacker, Many ways to get that 8th player out of the box

 

Simple as that... must be wonderful to know exactly what a defensive co-ordinator is thinking.

 

The fact is, the defense has more options and versatility against a Power-O than vice versa, especially if they are getting enough pressure by sending only the d-line. A cover 6 close up against the line is a perfect example of this... passes to the flats will either be covered or be completions for 3-4 yards.

 

Leaving too many players in to block is a recipe for disaster.

[AntonMcG]

Tampering with the oline worked pretty well for the Ravens last year. When you have a far inferior product as the colts do right now, you have little risk for making it worse but a bigger upside. May not work out but I agree, try out anyone else at center while you have this rare luxury.

 

The question is do we have a far inferior product... Holmes is such an enigma right now. He couldn't be much worse than Satele though.

[jwilli69]

TE out in the flat or rb out in the flat or TE in the vacated area left by the linebacker, Many ways to get that 8th player out of the box

Does our OC have enough intelligence to devise a scheme to get our guys into the areas that should be vacated by the defenders? It always seems our receivers are blanketed while opponents have 5 yards of open space to catch the ball. IDK, I'm skeptical about peps offensive mind.

[#87WayneFanHe'sTheMan]

The question is do we have a far inferior product... Holmes is such an enigma right now. He couldn't be much worse than Satele though.

 

Normally I would pull out the coaches know what they are doin speech say there is a reason he didn't play and yada yada. However this is Satele we are talking about and I don't know how many times I have watch him either just not block at all or block with very little effort. Even his score on PFF was the only 1 in the negative. So for this case I really don't see how he Holmes could be much worse than Satele. Plus even if he is worse I would assume he can at least get better I don't see that happening with Satele I think for him like for DHB it is just too late.

[AntonMcG]

Normally I would pull out the coaches know what they are doin speech say there is a reason he didn't play and yada yada. However this is Satele we are talking about and I don't know how many times I have watch him either just not block at all or block with very little effort. Even his score on PFF was the only 1 in the negative. So for this case I really don't see how he Holmes could be much worse than Satele. Plus even if he is worse I would assume he can at least get better I don't see that happening with Satele I think for him like for DHB it is just too late.

 

The question is... are we in a position to experiment with the playoffs looming?

 

Personally I am all for it, but there is logic behind it not materializing.

[jwilli69]

The question is do we have a far inferior product... Holmes is such an enigma right now. He couldn't be much worse than Satele though.

As bad as Satele has been all year, it's hard to figure out why Holmes hasn't even got into a game to see what he can do. My only thought is they are providing the same process as with Rogers, bring him along slow and prepared so he has a really good chance to succeed and not come in too early and possibly fail and get down on himself and lose self confidence. Of course it could just be he hasn't shown the ability to play in the NFL yet or hasn't got a handle on the line calls etc... At this point though and evaluating talent, I'm not sure I have the utmost confidence in this coaching staff right now.

[Gavin]

Simple as that... must be wonderful to know exactly what a defensive co-ordinator is thinking.

 

The fact is, the defense has more options and versatility against a Power-O than vice versa, especially if they are getting enough pressure by sending only the d-line. A cover 6 close up against the line is a perfect example of this... passes to the flats will either be covered or be completions for 3-4 yards.

 

Leaving too many players in to block is a recipe for disaster.

defense definitely does not have the advantage in that situation much like any other offensive formation, Good coordinators know how to make there offense dictate what the defense can do....We also have a FB in that power formation that can run out on a Texas concept route. or send the TE on a hook route. all kinds of things you can do from a power o if we execute that can get that 8th defender out of the box, those 3-4 yard gains will frustrate the defense into mistakes

[Gavin]

Does our OC have enough intelligence to devise a scheme to get our guys into the areas that should be vacated by the defenders? It always seems our receivers are blanketed while opponents have 5 yards of open space to catch the ball. IDK, I'm skeptical about peps offensive mind.

he does

[jwilli69]

he does

Based off what?

[Gavin]

Based off what?

Based on seeing guys like Griff Whalen sprint out into the flat or Coby Fleener out into the flat where a defender vacated, or a T.Y, Hilton running across the middle where an interior linebacker vacated, These are all things that have happened this year that Pep has built into his scheme but Luck chooses to try go downfield more, The very first offensive play vs the Bengals is just 1 example..Coby ran a Dig Route, would have only been a 4 yard gain but it could have acted as a run play forcing them Linebackers to come up....Just my opinion of course from what I see, Nothing more, nothing less

[AntonMcG]

defense definitely does not have the advantage in that situation much like any other offensive formation, Good coordinators know how to make there offense dictate what the defense can do....We also have a FB in that power formation that can run out on a Texas concept route. or send the TE on a hook route. all kinds of things you can do from a power o if we execute that can get that 8th defender out of the box, those 3-4 yard gains will frustrate the defense into mistakes

 

Of course the defense have an advantage, they are going against one dimensional personnel meaning they can put out the correct players in the correct positions to counteract the power-o.

 

You try to use generic passing routes as if this is the answer to anything the defense can throw at us when in a power formation, whilst completely ignoring the fact that the defense can push way up to the line in zone coverage and minimize space, because of the lack of speed to go downfield and the one-dimensional personnel we have on the field.

[jwilli69]

Of course the defense have an advantage, they are going against one dimensional personnel meaning they can put out the correct players in the correct positions to counteract the power-o.

 

You try to use generic passing routes as if this is the answer to anything the defense can throw at us when in a power formation, whilst completely ignoring the fact that the defense can push way up to the line in zone coverage and minimize space, because of the lack of speed to go downfield and the one-dimensional personnel we have on the field.

Not sure I understand what you are saying. Downfield speed is not what this team is lacking. TY, DHB, and Rogers are endowed with speed, particularly TY. Fleener as well has nice speed for the TE position, which is why he was deemed a great mismatch when the team drafted him.

[jwilli69]

Based on seeing guys like Griff Whalen sprint out into the flat or Coby Fleener out into the flat where a defender vacated, or a T.Y, Hilton running across the middle where an interior linebacker vacated, These are all things that have happened this year that Pep has built into his scheme but Luck chooses to try go downfield more, The very first offensive play vs the Bengals is just 1 example..Coby ran a Dig Route, would have only been a 4 yard gain but it could have acted as a run play forcing them Linebackers to come up....Just my opinion of course from what I see, Nothing more, nothing less

Ok guys in the flats are just throws for no yards on this team because we can't devise blocking schemes to get guys moving into the open as opposed to teams who consistently get 10 yards on screens against us. I'm talking about those open spots where the lb'ers were that seem to rush our qb or the safety who comes up. It just doesn't seem like Pep understands patterns well enough to get guys into those areas. Maybe with Da'Rick catching a ball thrown to him, unlike DHB, maybe pep will show more confidence in having luck throw to guys in the middle leading to bigger rewarding plays.

[AntonMcG]

Not sure I understand what you are saying. Downfield speed is not what this team is lacking. TY, DHB, and Rogers are endowed with speed, particularly TY. Fleener as well has nice speed for the TE position, which is why he was deemed a great mismatch when the team drafted him.

 

We have no downfield speed when in the power formation, i.e. there is one, or no WRs on the field.

[jwilli69]

We have no downfield speed when in the power formation, i.e. there is one, or no WRs on the field.

Ok but in the power formation, which team provides speed downfield? And if in that power formation you place TY in there, you in fact have speed and even with Rogers or DHB, you have speed, so I'm just confused as to what you are expecting in this formation? Not fussing at you at all, just not sure what you are looking for out of this formation.

[AntonMcG]

Ok but in the power formation, which team provides speed downfield? And if in that power formation you place TY in there, you in fact have speed and even with Rogers or DHB, you have speed, so I'm just confused as to what you are expecting in this formation? Not fussing at you at all, just not sure what you are looking for out of this formation.

 

Basically, when we are in this formation, we rarely pass, and there isn't much threat of a pass.

 

If there is a downfield route, it can be easily covered by a corner and a safety, and in some cases, just a corner. This leave 9/10 players close to the LOS... so it is pretty easy for the defense to go zone and leave very few windows for short/intermediate passes. Even if we do get a catch in the flats, it is likely for 3-4 yards as LBs will be on top of the pass-catcher immediately.

 

There are times when Out-routes by the TE can work here for large pick-ups but I have rarely seen it from us. I have little faith in the formation and the personnel we use to run it.

[Valpo2004]

He'll be arguably the most in demand FA this year... pretty unlikely we get him without paying him crazy money.

 

He'll be in high demand but I don't think he'll be the most demanded FA.  Cutler might be though.

 

Was looking and the most recent reports seem to indicate that Ryan Kalil has the biggest contract for a center which averages out to about 8 million per year.

 

I don't know if Mack is better then Kalil or not, but I would think we could have Mack for 8.5 million a year.  A lot of money yes but not an unthinkable number.  Mathis is currently making 9.

[AntonMcG]

He'll be in high demand but I don't think he'll be the most demanded FA.  Cutler might be though.

 

Was looking and the most recent reports seem to indicate that Ryan Kalil has the biggest contract for a center which averages out to about 8 million per year.

 

I don't know if Mack is better then Kalil or not, but I would think we could have Mack for 8.5 million a year.  A lot of money yes but not an unthinkable number.  Mathis is currently making 9.

 

True but Mathis is a pass-rusher which is a premium price position. I expect Mack's market value to dictate that he becomes the highest paid Center in the league... whether he is better than Kalil won't really matter.

[Valpo2004]

True but Mathis is a pass-rusher which is a premium price position. I expect Mack's market value to dictate that he becomes the highest paid Center in the league... whether he is better than Kalil won't really matter.

 

That may be, but that means he gets 8.5 to 9 million.  

 

My view is that if we want to do this power run game thing we're gonna need to have a star offensive lineman in the interior to bust open the holes.  

[AntonMcG]

That may be, but that means he gets 8.5 to 9 million.  

 

My view is that if we want to do this power run game thing we're gonna need to have a star offensive lineman in the interior to bust open the holes.  

 

I agree he gets that money, but I don't know if we are the team who pays it.

 

I would love him, believe me, but there are other good options out there. De La Puente as BOTT alluded to in another thread.

[In Luck We Trust]

We probably should not have traded him...but he is not good enough to be our starter for the future.

Future? maybe not, but in the present over Satelle?? i would say H E double hockey sticks yes. 

[IUfan_Charlie]

Skinny Jeff > Satele 

[throwing BBZ]

No. We keep him that long we have 5 mil of dead money. we cut him after the season and we save 4 mil

 

 Pretty sure he has to be on the opening day roster to be a $5m cap hit.

 If he is on the opening roster .... well, he just won`t be. Although some * had McGlynn on it this year.

[Balzer40]

Doesnt have to be a huge guy, jeff saturday was small and he turned out pretty good.

 

 

 

Yeah, in a zone blocking scheme. Saturday would not have been able to handle a man blocking scheme. To play a man blocking scheme that we play....Yes...they do need to be larger lineman. That is one of the reasons why Satele is so bad in our scheme, he's too small and weak.