Was Werner a liability vs. the run?

[JoKeR]

I want to watch again, but I saw lots of good from Werner, against the run and rushing the passer. He got absolutely blown off the ball on his first snap, which was a run his way. Failed to set the edge, couldn't get off his block, just completely lost that matchup, however you want to look at it.

 

But after that, I saw him strong at the point of attack, I saw him set the edge, he shed blockers, he even did all three on one play, and finished it off with the run stuff. He looked like a guy who was playing his first NFL game, but he settled in and started making plays.

 

I was much more upset with Robert Mathis' performance last week than I was with Bjoern Werner's this week.

I liked your post but I could've swore he had a QB pressure on his first snap, maybe that was the 2nd snap.

[BOTT]

Can anyone explain to me why we drafted a situational player with our first pick?  Shouldnt first picks be someone who plays most downs...seems like a waste to me.  Especially since he is playing out of position.  D. Free 2.0?

Freeney didn't play well because he is getting old and/or he was fighting a high ankle sprain. For the most part DF was asked to do the thing he had always done......get after the QB.

As far as Werner being a wasted pick....you always need pass rushers and mathis isn't exactly a spring chicken.

[JoKeR]

This article shows the ignorance of the author, he actually thinks we went from 3-4 to 4-3 in order to help Werner. It's obvious he had no clue what he was looking at. I guess " hybrid " 3-4 is just to much to remember or understand for these journalist.

[Gavin]

Were not a 4-3, were not a 3-4, were a multiple defense, Sometimes were in the 3-4, sometimes were in a 5-2-4 and so on, we change it up

[JoKeR]

IMO Werner showed more promise at OLB than Freeney did all last year, and its only his 1st game. He showed more than Mathis did last week. To be clear, I am a huge fan of those guys.

[JoKeR]

He did get hooked on one run allowing the back to get the edge, other than that one I don't recall any other play probably was a couple more though

So did Mathis, got hooked all the way to the ground, more like tackled. Beyond obvious holding needs to be called but its preseason.

[Superman]

I liked your post but I could've swore he had a QB pressure on his first snap, maybe that was the 2nd snap.

 

Yeah I was just looking at a few plays right now, and it wasn't his first snap. His first snap was a pass play, so you're memory is probably correct. The play where he got blown up was a couple plays after that.

[HtownColt]

@andrewmishler: Pretty surprised to see @PFF give Bjoern Werner a -2.6 grade last night, the lowest out of every Colts defender.

I don't think I agree with this one

[OffensivelyPC]

@andrewmishler: Pretty surprised to see @PFF give Bjoern Werner a -2.6 grade last night, the lowest out of every Colts defender.

I don't think I agree with this one

That begs the question, who do you think played worse?  Or are you just disputing the magnitude of the grade?

[BOTT]

@andrewmishler: Pretty surprised to see @PFF give Bjoern Werner a -2.6 grade last night, the lowest out of every Colts defender.

I don't think I agree with this one

Probably because a lot of the guys at PFF don't know enough about football to be handing out grades. I listened to one of their guys on the RossTucker podcast and their is definitely some flaws in how they do things.

[1959Colts]

I was at the game and was very impressed with what I saw from Werner.

This morning I was surprised to read the article on this thread.

So I just watched the tape and I must say, I totally disagree.

In my opinion, werner played great. He may have made a few mistakes. But we cant expect perfection on the guys first game.

The writer implies Werner cannot defend the run, yet on one play he single handed stuffs the runner for a loss. As good a tackle as any during the whole game.

And Werner just missed a QB sack. Had several pressures on the QB. Dropped nicely into coverage.

 

Bad article that give incorrect analysis.

[1959Colts]

Probably because a lot of the guys at PFF don't know enough about football to be handing out grades. I listened to one of their guys on the RossTucker podcast and their is definitely some flaws in how they do things.

 

Seems to me like these clowns rely on a computer to make all their grades.

Werner looks like a natural to me. Dont worry, he will be very good for us this year.

[1959Colts]

He's cool

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAvwXsqBuYQ

[Narcosys]

hahahahahahahahahahhahahahahah..... just precious 

Well im glad I can make you laugh.  Though i would like the insight on just how precious I am.

[Narcosys]

.

No, they said they were going to put him in passing downs to start out because he is a rookie. But he can play the run equally well. It even took freeney awhile before he started to show promise.

That doesnt changed the fact, and your post confirms it, that we used the first pick on a situational down player.  May he develop into a fulltime starter, sure.  But we still used the 1st pick on a situational down player and not on rather say a....Idk...Lineman, CB, Safety, WR..RB (althought RB can be situational).  But we just didnt pick a typical 1st rounder IMO. 

[Narcosys]

He's a situational player right now.  I doubt he'll always be a situational player if he's as good as Pagano and company seems to believe.  He's a rookie and like most other rookies (even one's drafted in the first round), they are eased in and depending on their progression in all aspects, will see that role expand or limit accordingly.  Also keep in mind how many additions we have added to the defense, both OLB and DL.  It's about creating competition, seeing whose skill sets are better than others and keeping defenders fresh come gametime.  It's the second week in pre-season with a defense that is still developing its own identity.  Takes time.

 

I understand that, and am not knocking the mans skills at all.  Just asking why we drafted a situational player like that.  I hope he really learns the position.  He seems very intelligent and willing to learn and think he will be a great player. 

[Narcosys]

Freeney didn't play well because he is getting old and/or he was fighting a high ankle sprain. For the most part DF was asked to do the thing he had always done......get after the QB.

As far as Werner being a wasted pick....you always need pass rushers and mathis isn't exactly a spring chicken.

I tell you what BOTT, you always have the best way of explaining things ::

[Dark Superman]

I thought he played fine to quite well for his first meaningful snaps, but I came across this hatchet piece on cbs sports : http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/nfl-draft-scout/23212158/colts-rookie-werner-struggles-at-olb-in-nfl-debut

I was surprised, did anybody else come to the same conclusion as this guy?

These critics literally crack me up.. The kid played well in his FIRST ever game. Did I mention FIRST?

[Malakai432]

Schvergen Flopner!!!!!

Ich denke, dieser Kerl ist gut sein!! gib ihm etwas Zeit, um zu wachsen und zu lernen, kann er ein Monster sein.

Smurgen Vergen!!!!!

[Gavin]

From what I took away watching Werner specifically these are the numbers I came out with:

 

Werner defensive snap count
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Werner pressures
1
2
3
4

 

 

Werner Contain responsibility
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8

 

Drop Backs
1
2
3
4
5
6

 

So 21 pass rushes......4 pressures

 

 

 

 

 

Werner showed a mix bag vs the Giants....some good.......somethings need to improve......all of which should improve over time if he stays healthy

 

What he needs to improve:

1.Playing strength-on more then one occasion vs the Giants he simply got overpowered

 

2.decisiveness-There seemed to be times from what I could tell he didn't know what to do out there, pass rush or hold contain, he seemed to hesitate and that led to him getting in some trouble

 

3.Stamina-this does not surprise me with the speed of the NFL game being what it is but I thought on a couple occasions he was laboring a bit, this is to be expected playing as many snaps as he did (most of which came in the 2nd Quarter...He only played 5 defensive snaps in the 1st Quarter)

 

4.Dropping back in coverage...the few times that he did it he didn't drop deep enough and looked a bit lost as to who to cover.

 

What he did well

1.He flashed the ability to get pressure on the QB, 2 of which I thought for sure he had a sack but he fell down and 1 other he just overpursuited and got taken out of the play

 

2.He had his eyes on the RB several times in the backfield instead of always having a sick em mentality and going straight at the QB at the expense of giving up a long run

 

Not sure how I would grade his performance so I wont get into that for now but if he stays healthy I expect he will get alot better

 

My MVP of that game....Erik Walden for doing an all around good job for the majority of the plays he was in

[atapcl]

On the first run to the outside he did not set the edge as well as possible but Kavell Conner came around his outside and could have had the back in the backfield. Instead Conner was knocked on his behind. Davis dived at the backs feet and missed. In the first run that gashed the team up the middle Sheppard followed Freeman into Freeman's gap and left the door open for a long run. A lot of people need to clean up some mistakes. I thought Werner played well for a rookie especially in pass defense which is where he is the least experienced.

[Gavin]

On the first run to the outside he did not set the edge as well as possible but Kavell Conner came around his outside and could have had the back in the backfield. Instead Conner was knocked on his behind. Davis dived at the backs feet and missed. In the first run that gashed the team up the middle Sheppard followed Freeman into Freeman's gap and left the door open for a long run. A lot of people need to clean up some mistakes. I thought Werner played well for a rookie especially in pass defense which is where he is the least experienced.

first run of the game?

[atapcl]

first run of the game?

Giants first big run that gashed us up the middle was Sheppard's miscue.

[Jason_]

Giants first big run that gashed us up the middle was Sheppard's miscue.

 

eh kind of but not really.  I think it was more about Franklin not demanding the constant double team from the OG and C.  One of the linemen quickly came off of Franklin and then moved on to take out Sheppard.  Had Franklin forced both linemen to stay with him then Sheppard would have been free to try to make the play.

[Gavin]

Giants first big run that gashed us up the middle was Sheppard's miscue.

right but it got compounded by Franklin getting bulldozed

[atapcl]

eh kind of but not really.  I think it was more about Franklin not demanding the constant double team from the OG and C.  One of the linemen quickly came off of Franklin and then moved on to take out Sheppard.  Had Franklin forced both linemen to stay with him then Sheppard would have been free to try to make the play.

Looked to me like the nt took the A gap to the left. Freeman went left and Sheppard was unblocked running behind Freeman.

[atapcl]

right but it got compounded by Franklin getting bulldozed

If Sheppard maintains his gap to the right that run does not happen.

[Jason_]

If Sheppard maintains his gap to the right that run does not happen.

 

If Sheppard maintains his gap then he's, at most, 1 or 2 yards further to his right, still well within range of the offensive lineman to block him.  It all starts up front.  The NT has to demand that the OG and C double block him in order to keep the ILB"s free.  Franklin did not on that play so one of the lineman was able to take Sheppard out of the play.  

[Gavin]

If Sheppard maintains his gap to the right that run does not happen.

probably right

[atapcl]

If Sheppard maintains his gap then he's, at most, 1 or 2 yards further to his right, still well within range of the offensive lineman to block him.  It all starts up front.  The NT has to demand that the OG and C double block him in order to keep the ILB"s free.  Franklin did not on that play so one of the lineman was able to take Sheppard out of the play.  

Sheppard was unblocked. He could have attacked his gap like Freeman and blew up the play.

[Gavin]

If Sheppard maintains his gap then he's, at most, 1 or 2 yards further to his right, still well within range of the offensive lineman to block him.  It all starts up front.  The NT has to demand that the OG and C double block him in order to keep the ILB"s free.  Franklin did not on that play so one of the lineman was able to take Sheppard out of the play.  

even if Franklin dont get taken down if your Linebackers break there gap assignment it leaves a massive hole especially on Zone runs when you have Linebackers flowing one way and your running back cutting back the opposite way

[Gavin]

Sheppard was unblocked. He could have attacked his gap like Freeman and blew up the play.

he wasn't unblocked for long when Franklin went down

[Jason_]

even if Franklin dont get taken down if your Linebackers break there gap assignment it leaves a massive hole especially on Zone runs when you have Linebackers flowing one way and your running back cutting back the opposite way

 

I agree..I never said that Sheppard did not maintain his gap.  Rather I agree that he did not.  But like you said, he was not unblocked for long.  The OG would still have been able to block him and the RB could have simply cut once more to get around them.

[Jason_]

Sheppard was unblocked. He could have attacked his gap like Freeman and blew up the play.

 

eh, perhaps.  Or perhaps the C pulls off of Franklin and takes Sheppard out.  IMO it's all conjecture about what may or may not have happened had Sheppard maintained his gap because the most important part was Franklin didn't force the double team to stay with him.  

 

Excellent defense is all about managing your responsibilities and maintaining discipline.  The most important thing is that neither Franklin nor Sheppard were able to do their part on that play. 

[Gavin]

I agree..I never said that Sheppard did not maintain his gap.  Rather I agree that he did not.  But like you said, he was not unblocked for long.  The OG would still have been able to block him and the RB could have simply cut once more to get around them.

See I dont get why so many say your NT is the most important piece in a 3-4....Are they important? Of course...That goes without saying......But your NT NO MATTER how big and strong simply wont draw a double team on ever single running play......wont happen......On inside runs your ILB's have to have the strength and ability to get off there blocks (because its a simple fact they will get blocked sometimes) and hold there gaps and if that running back comes in there gap then make a play on him REGARDLESS if your NT is still standing or is a heap on the ground......Its an absolute bonus if your NT can disengage while still holding up the middle at the same time

[atapcl]

eh, perhaps.  Or perhaps the C pulls off of Franklin and takes Sheppard out.  IMO it's all conjecture about what may or may not have happened had Sheppard maintained his gap because the most important part was Franklin didn't force the double team to stay with him.  

 

Excellent defense is all about managing your responsibilities and maintaining discipline.  The most important thing is that neither Franklin nor Sheppard were able to do their part on that play. 

Maybe we are talking about two different plays. I am not talking about the Giants first run that was for about 4 or 5 yards but the second that gashed us for about 15 yards. The G in front of Sheppard actually doubled Franklin leaving a gaping hole that Sheppard did not fill. Bethea was too far to the left to make the play and Walden had to come from his ROLB spot to make the tackle.

[atapcl]

he wasn't unblocked for long when Franklin went down

He did not ever looked blocked to me. Looked like he was caught in the trash out of position. The G in front of him actually doubled Franklin leaving the hole wide open but he flowed behind Freeman. This is the second run for the big yardage not the first run where he was blocked.

[atapcl]

eh, perhaps.  Or perhaps the C pulls off of Franklin and takes Sheppard out.  IMO it's all conjecture about what may or may not have happened had Sheppard maintained his gap because the most important part was Franklin didn't force the double team to stay with him.  

 

Excellent defense is all about managing your responsibilities and maintaining discipline.  The most important thing is that neither Franklin nor Sheppard were able to do their part on that play. 

On the play I am talking about Franklin was doubled. The C and the G in front of Sheppard both doubled Franklin knocking him to the ground.

[Jason_]

See I dont get why so many say your NT is the most important piece in a 3-4....Are they important? Of course...That goes without saying......But your NT NO MATTER how big and strong simply wont draw a double team on ever single running play......wont happen......On inside runs your ILB's have to have the strength and ability to get off there blocks (because its a simple fact they will get blocked sometimes) and hold there gaps and if that running back comes in there gap then make a play on him REGARDLESS if your NT is still standing or is a heap on the ground......Its an absolute bonus if your NT can disengage while still holding up the middle at the same time

 

The NT is the most important piece of the 3-4 because if you have one who can force double teams consistently (yes, here I agree with you that those guy are rare) then that prevents you from having to have top-talent at the ILB positions.  it's give and take.  The better your NT is, the more leeway you have in terms of the ILB's and not having to spend 1st round picks or a ton of money in FA to have top quality ILBs.  In contrast, with a lesser talented NT then your ILB's will need to be that much better.   Very similar to your "the better your QB is, the better his WR's look" argument. ;)

 

 

Maybe we are talking about two different plays. I am not talking about the Giants first run that was for about 4 or 5 yards but the second that gashed us for about 15 yards. The G in front of Sheppard actually doubled Franklin leaving a gaping hole that Sheppard did not fill. Bethea was too far to the left to make the play and Walden had to come from his ROLB spot to make the tackle.

 

No, we're talking about the same play.  Again, I agree that Sheppard did not maintain his gap.  I never disputed that.  The OG did double Franklin but very briefly.  That's why Sheppard was unblocked, but only very briefly...because once the OG disengaged from Franklin he moved on and took out Sheppard.  Who was more to blame, Sheppard or Franlkin?  Frankly it doesn't matter.  Hopefully they both continue to improve and do a better job in the future.  

[atapcl]

The NT is the most important piece of the 3-4 because if you have one who can force double teams consistently (yes, here I agree with you that those guy are rare) then that prevents you from having to have top-talent at the ILB positions.  it's give and take.  The better your NT is, the more leeway you have in terms of the ILB's and not having to spend 1st round picks or a ton of money in FA to have top quality ILBs.  In contrast, with a lesser talented NT then your ILB's will need to be that much better.   Very similar to your "the better your QB is, the better his WR's look" argument. ;)

 

 

 

No, we're talking about the same play.  Again, I agree that Sheppard did not maintain his gap.  I never disputed that.  The OG did double Franklin but very briefly.  That's why Sheppard was unblocked, but only very briefly...because once the OG disengaged from Franklin he moved on and took out Sheppard.  Who was more to blame, Sheppard or Franlkin?  Frankly it doesn't matter.  Hopefully they both continue to improve and do a better job in the future.  

Sheppard was to blame. Do you blame Franklin for not playing the double team properly? If Sheppard attacks his gap maybe Franklin beats a single block and makes the tackle. Freeman did attack his gap.