Im all in for a CB in the first.

[John Dee]

sorry Chief but you got it backwards... 

 

 

I feel like CB is our biggest need. Football is the ultimate team sport and you need good corners to give the pass rush a chance to get to the QB, that's why people think our pass rush was horrible because it was easy to find a open target with our DBs. Imagine if we got someone like Desmond Trufant. That would be the biggest position battle in camp. Just thinking about Laron Landry, Antoine Bethea, Vontae Davis, Desmond Trufant and Greg or Darius at slot! Get chills just thinking about it...

[Warhorse]

I believe that they way they have been aggressive in FA, that they will literally take the BPA. I really dont feel they will reach even a smidgen  to take a CB. If we take a CB, it will be because he is the BPA. Period.

 

That said, it seems like if that were to happen, all the fans crying for a OG, and all the fans crying for a WR, and the small group of us hoping for a S who have a player we are hoping for still available at 24,.....well........you know what it will be like around here.

[MarquisJ]

I believe they compliment each other..

sorry Chief but you got it backwards... 

[BOTT]

Prove it.

No

[bestQBever]

id love to have hayden. 

kelvin hayden?

[TMPHBITEU]

No

Fair enough. I'll assume that you, along with everyone else in this thread who seem to believe it's either one way or the other do not know what they're talking about.

The only logical reasoning in this scenario is that defense in football is based on the entity of team play. Pass rush is no more important than covering the receivers. Nor are any of these positions any more important than any other position on the defense in a general sense. Remove one, and the rest will fall.

Thus - by logical deduction - cornerback play is dependent on the pass rush, and vise versa. Believing anything else is ludicrous.

[bahhummbug]

Depends on the receiver. I'd love Rhodes though.

Were all guessing and what we think we need.Some people like Defense some like offense so were just guessing even Grigs doesnt know who were taking at 24.But if a Rhodes is there Iam all for drafting him.We do have WRs people forget about Whalen and Pep being reunited TY Whalen Reggie Fleener Allen Napalm Brazill and now even a FB that can catch.Only 1 guy can catch the ball at a time how many WRs do we need.Draft a big WR next year to replace Reggie in my mind.But its a guess like everyone elses.Iam all for aCB at 24 wouldnt hurt my feelings we need depth.A pass rusher no guard worth it will fall to us at 24 or I would say G even.

[MarquisJ]

Amen!

Fair enough. I'll assume that you, along with everyone else in this thread who seem to believe it's either one way or the other do not know what they're talking about.

The only logical reasoning in this scenario is that defense in football is based on the entity of team play. Pass rush is no more important than covering the receivers. Nor are any of these positions any more important than any other position on the defense in a general sense. Remove one, and the rest will fall.

Thus - by logical deduction - cornerback play is dependent on the pass rush, and vise versa. Believing anything else is ludicrous.

[Nobody]

Have you deleted anything from er signature?  Is that where you post "I will delete"

I deleted "I will delete this when the new Colts win a game" and "I will delete this when the new Colts make the playoffs," I think.

[BOTT]

Fair enough. I'll assume that you, along with everyone else in this thread who seem to believe it's either one way or the other do not know what they're talking about.

The only logical reasoning in this scenario is that defense in football is based on the entity of team play. Pass rush is no more important than covering the receivers. Nor are any of these positions any more important than any other position on the defense in a general sense. Remove one, and the rest will fall.

Thus - by logical deduction - cornerback play is dependent on the pass rush, and vise versa. Believing anything else is ludicrous.

When was the last time a CB went first in the draft? How often do they even go in the top 5. Or just look at the first round as a whole, that will tip you off to who is more valued.

Google Ozzie Newsome or Ernie Accorsi's and read what they think about the subject. Or watch the draft special with bill Polian and bill Parcells....they will say the same thing....and practically everyone with any football knowledge will agree. It's practically football 101 .

Ludicrous? This from the guy that claims every position has equal value.

[GoColts8818]

People liked Vaughn in the pre-season and early season when he was paying as a nickel or dime back which is what he is right now. The problem came last year when Powers got hurt and we had to ask him to be the second corner. He was out of position and of course any NFL QB is going to pick on a back up corner when the other option is throwing against Davis. I think had Butler been asked to do that all year people would not have been as high on him either. (Remember the New England game he started because of injuries and he was shredded?). The other thing to remember with Vaughn is he is still a young payer all that experience he got last year should help him a lot in a nickel or dime back role.

[TMPHBITEU]

When was the last time a CB went first in the draft? How often do they even go in the top 5. Or just look at the first round as a whole, that will tip you off to who is more valued.

Google Ozzie Newsome or Ernie Accorsi's and read what they think about the subject. Or watch the draft special with bill Polian and bill Parcells....they will say the same thing....and practically everyone with any football knowledge will agree. It's practically football 101 .

Ludicrous? This from the guy that claims every position has equal value.

You failed to grasp what I was saying. I was speaking about defensive machinery, not individual player material. If you disagree with what I wrote before, I urge you to try to argue against it. Oh and "because XXX says so, it's true" is not a logical argument. It's merely another opinion without facts or logical deduction and as such is worthless.

Every position does have the same value in a general sense. The defense is symbiotic. Remove any piece of the machinery, and the mechanism will fail. Your argument resembles saying that your heart is the most vital organ of your body, because otherwise it could not function. Well, the same could be said for practically every other major organ.

Remove a coverage player, and the receiver is left unattended. Remove a pass rusher, and the quarterback will have all the time in the world. Remove any one position, and you'll leave a crucial hole This is what I mean with a "general" sense. Remove any part of the mechanism and the rest will suffer equally because of it. No one part would then be more important than the other. (And yes, I mean remove that player literally).

Is this the same as saying every position has the same value in a strategical sense? No, this is an entirely different discussion (which I've yet to participate in). Putting emphasis on pass rush over coverage, will give you a strategical advantage in one area, and will leave you at a disadvantage in another. In this sense, pass rush would be of greater importance, as you strategically rely on it. However, comparing this to what I wrote before is comparing apples and oranges. This is why I asked you to prove that "pass rush is of greater importance than coverage", as that would open up an entirely different discussion on strategy and tactics.

 

[BOTT]

You failed to grasp what I was saying. I was speaking about defensive machinery, not individual player material. If you disagree with what I wrote before, I urge you to try to argue against it. Oh and "because XXX says so, it's true" is not a logical argument. It's merely another opinion without facts or logical deduction and as such is worthless.

Every position does have the same value in a general sense. The defense is symbiotic. Remove any piece of the machinery, and the mechanism will fail. Your argument resembles saying that your heart is the most vital organ of your body, because otherwise it could not function. Well, the same could be said for practically every other major organ.

Remove a coverage player, and the receiver is left unattended. Remove a pass rusher, and the quarterback will have all the time in the world. Remove any one position, and you'll leave a crucial hole This is what I mean with a "general" sense. Remove any part of the mechanism and the rest will suffer equally because of it. No one part would then be more important than the other. (And yes, I mean remove that player literally).

Is this the same as saying every position has the same value in a strategical sense? No, this is an entirely different discussion (which I've yet to participate in). Putting emphasis on pass rush over coverage, will give you a strategical advantage in one area, and will leave you at a disadvantage in another. In this sense, pass rush would be of greater importance, as you strategically rely on it. However, comparing this to what I wrote before is comparing apples and oranges. This is why I asked you to prove that "pass rush is of greater importance than coverage", as that would open up an entirely different discussion on strategy and tactics.

 

Good god....blah blah blah. What a pile of pure nonsense

[TMPHBITEU]

Good god....blah blah blah. What a pile of pure nonsense

At least you got my title right.

[Gavin]

Depends on whos there, Guard, OLB and Corner are still a need, BPA out of those 3

[United We Stand]

This is why Grigson's free agency scheme is brilliant.  Filled many needs.  Now the draft will truly be best available player.  Then, he'll find his diamonds in the later rounds. 

[funktacious2]

Yes, Evidently Nobody can

Nobody name puns never get old.

[BrentMc11]

Harnish over Hasselbeck?? Ok

Hughes will play plenty.

Hopefully Ijalana plays before Link-less.

Link will play before Injuredlana.  16 games in 2010, 16 games in 2011, and 16 games last year for Link....zero for Benjured in 2012 and 4 games in 2011.....a stellar resume.

 

We will continue to root for Ben Iljalana to surface as a 'guard' at some point, but it says something to be ready at a moments notice to fill in for the men in the trenches that go down....that is why Link is here to stay!  I will be his worst critic when he sucks, but will back him when nobody else is versatile enough to do his job.

 

Time to start bashing Tony 'the penalty flag' Hills, Bradley 'blow by me' Sowell.....Justin-case I ever play Anderson....not to mention Lee 'who the heck am I 'Ziemba? and Robert mug shot Griffin....(I have zero clue whether he has a 1, 2 3 4 5 or 6 behind his name or just a number on his cell jersey) 

[Luckynumber12]

1st  Pass rusher or Guard      3rd  Guard or WR    4th  WR or CB   

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Im all in for a CB in the first.

 

I'm very please that you will be sorely disappointed.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

U have that backwards

 

 

If you are referring to his statement of poor DBs resulting in a poor pass rush

 

He was....and he was correct.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Even with the addition of a starting CB through Free Agency, the Cornerbackites return to form: rambling on with the sheer fantasy of taking a CB in the 1st round.

 

[LoudandProud]

Are there any home run speed running backs?  Other teams (particularly New England) seem to find good running backs all over the draft.  We need a dangerous RB even if he isn't the most polished to keep the defense honest and open up the passing game. 

[HarassedOffTheSite]

We need a dangerous RB even if he isn't the most polished to keep the defense honest and open up the passing game. 

 

Perhaps...but wouldn't commonsense first call for an adequate stable of OLlinemen that can create running lanes for such a RB?

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Poor coverage Always hinders the Pass Rush.

 

 

Poor execution by interior Linemen has a far greater affect on Pass Rush than CB coverage does.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Depends on whos there, Guard, OLB and Corner are still a need...

 

...wait, what? LOL

[Gavin]

 

Poor execution by interior Linemen has a far greater affect on Pass Rush than CB coverage does.

Obviously not true, We had 2 elite pass rushers in Mathis and Freeney for years yet the vast majority of of our DT's have been crap at best(Our last good one that made any difference for us was Tony Siragusa) and that includes a couple who were expected to make a difference (Corey Simon and Mcfarland). if you dont have Corners that can anticipate and react to a wr's route quick enough to 1.make a play on the wr or 2.make a play on the ball then I dont care what kind of pass rush you have, teams that are smart enough will dink and dunk ya all the way down the field thereby avoiding any potential pass rush while at the same time driving most fans up the wall because your Corners have no instincts

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Every position does have the same value in a general sense.

 

LOL how fundementally incorrect. There are positions in both 4/3 AND 3/4 defensive schemes that have far greater emphasis placed on them than others. Both schemes have a hierarchy for positions in terms of impact and the resulting prioritization.

 

And CB rates relatively low in both.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Obviously not true

 

No. It obviously is.

[Gavin]

...wait, what? LOL

your comfortable with Toler as our #2 and Walden starting? Im not saying we must go with those specific positions in the 1st although there are alot of very good players to be had at the top of the draft there 

[BOTT]

Obviously not true, We had 2 elite pass rushers in Mathis and Freeney for years yet the vast majority of of our DT's have been crap at best(Our last good one that made any difference for us was Tony Siragusa) and that includes a couple who were expected to make a difference (Corey Simon and Mcfarland). if you dont have Corners that can anticipate and react to a wr's route quick enough to 1.make a play on the wr or 2.make a play on the ball then I dont care what kind of pass rush you have, teams that are smart enough will dink and dunk ya all the way down the field thereby avoiding any potential pass rush while at the same time driving most fans up the wall because your Corners have no instincts

The problem was having zero pass rush outside of freeney and mathis coupled with corners who were asked to play passively.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

your comfortable with Toler as our #2 and Walden starting?

 

Oi....what I am comfortable with doesn't matter (you really need to start mumbling that to yourself). However, what our Management is comfortable with does. And commonsense says they didn't go out and spend the money they did in order for Walden and Toler to be depth.

 

I really have to explain that? You know that's like A,B,Cs kinda stuff.

[BOTT]

your comfortable with Toler as our #2 and Walden starting? Im not saying we must go with those specific positions in the 1st although there are alot of very good players to be had at the top of the draft there 

I'm very comfortable with Toler starting.....I get the sense you're not

[HarassedOffTheSite]

The problem was having zero pass rush outside of freeney and mathis coupled with corners who were asked to play passively.

 

He knows that full well. I'm not chasing his silly little assertions.

[Gavin]

The problem was having zero pass rush outside of freeney and mathis coupled with corners who were asked to play passively.

True to an extend in my opinion, our Corners back then were not always asked to play off the wr's and even when they were (which was a fair share of plays I know) the Bears and there Cover 2 played there Corners the same way alot of times

[Gavin]

Oi....what I am comfortable with doesn't matter (you really need to start mumbling that to yourself). However, what our Management is comfortable with does. And commonsense says they didn't go out and spend the money they did in order for Walden and Toler to be depth.

 

I really have to explain that? You know that's like A,B,Cs kinda stuff.

Hmm not sure where any of my statement you pick up even the slightest idea that I said Walden and Toler would be backups, Of course there contracts say they will be starting 

[Gavin]

I'm very comfortable with Toler starting.....I get the sense you're not

Watching games from when he started at Arizona not Im no really comfortable with it, Does that mean I wont get comfortable with it if he comes out and plays well? I'd love if he came out in played well of course but My expectations are tempered 

[MarquisJ]

Its just a thought something that should be considered that's all man

I'm very please that you will be sorely disappointed.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

"...Hmm not sure where any of my statement you pick up even the slightest idea that I said Walden and Toler would be backups..."

 

 

LOL!!!!

 

"...OLB and Corner are still a need..."

 

 

your comfortable with Toler as our #2 and Walden starting?

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Its just a thought something that should be considered that's all man

 

It's been considered ad nauseam.....man.