Dumervil sure has a way of tickin people off

[Dustin]

Sure they did. The QB only controls 50 percent of the game. Brian Billick was a pretty good coach too last I checked and they didn't win nearly as much with Grbac and Boller.

 

And when was the last time a coach made a play on the field, ever?

 

lol Who ever said that Billick was a good coach? He was mediocre to say the least.

 

And your last part is just ridiculous. To imply that coaching has no effect on on the field play is ridiculous.

[amfootball]

lol Who ever said that Billick was a good coach? He was mediocre to say the least.

 

And your last part is just ridiculous. To imply that coachiign has no effect on on the field play is ridiculous.

Billick won a SB. Same as Harbaugh and had one of the best defenses in the history of football. Only 85 Bears were better.

 

Coaching has an effect but not to the degree you are impying. Belichick was 12 games below .500 in his six seasons with the Browns wiht a 1-1 playoff record. With Brady? He is the "genius." lol.

[Dustin]

Bilick won a SB. Same as Harbaugh and had one of the best defenses in the history of football. Only 85 Bears were better.

 

Coaching has an effect but not to the degree you are impying. Belichick was 12 games below .500 in his six seasons with the Browns wiht a 1-1 playoff record. With Brady? He is the "genius." lol.

 

You realize the Billick was an offensive coordinator right? He had nothng to do at all with that defense. For a guy that had such a great background in offensive strategy he sure put together some terrible offenses in Baltimore.

 

Belichick was considered a genius before he ever step foot in New England. Guy was a celebrated D-Coordinator that put together one of the greatest defensive gameplans in the history of the league when he went up against the Bills in the Super Bowl. It's not like he was some no-name scrub. And I woud argue that the Pats dynasty had more to do with Belichick than it did with Brady.

[amfootball]

You realize the Billick was an offensive coordinator right? He had nothng to do at all with that defense. For a guy that had such a great background in offensive strategy he sure put together some terrible offenses in Baltimore.

 

Belichick was considered a genius before he ever step foot in New England. Guy was a celebrated D-Coordinator that put together one of the greatest defensive gameplans in the history of the league when he went up against the Bills in the Super Bowl. It's not like he was some no-name scrub. And I woud argue that the Pats dynasty had more to do with Belichick than it did with Brady.

I can assure Belichick was not a genius before arriving in NE. He was a solid DC but most gave Parcells the credit for the Giants two SB wins. I mean when you win with Jeff Hostetler that is pretty impressive.

 

Bill's HC resume prior to NE was below average as I stated. Most in NE was shocked that we have the Jets a number one pick for him and when he began 5-11 with Bledsoe in 2000 he was on the hot seat. The team started off 0-2 in 2001 and many were calling for his job until Brady stepped in and the rest is history...he was never considered a genius until he won that first SB with Brady. I still don't consider him a genius. Brady has covered for his JV defense for years now and would have rings #4 and #5 with a secondary that could actually do anything...

 

One other point, the defense that the Pats had in the SB years was from Parcells. Belichick has yet to put a defense anywhere near that on the field...

[DILLIGAFER]

You are so far off on this topic. The debate was not if Flacco carried his team but that Manning made the players around him better. I pointed out the fact that Manning had the luxury of playing with HoFers such as Faulk, James, Harrison his career while Flacco has not had any although Rice could get there if he stays healthy and continues to produce. The facts are these, until Flacco stepped on the scene, the Ravens stunk. Do I need to remind you of the Grback or Boller days? And the D was just as stout those years as 2008 and beyond. Flacco's stat lines are never flashy but he wins. He does make plays and he does score points. He has gone to the playoffs every single year he has been the starting QB and won at least one playoff game. No one in the history of football has done that so don't act like what I am saying is hyperbole. It's not.

 

In terms of the Manning comparison. Another poster said the Flacco was 4/5 of Manning and I agreed with it. Right now Joe has as many playoff wins as Manning and less than half the losses. Manning did not win his first playoff game until his sixth season in the league. Joe also has zero one and done's compared to Manning's eight and a ring and a SB MVP, same as Manning. I realize Joe still has more to prove in the regular season which is why I agreed with the 4/5s comment. He is not there yet but if he continues to get the Ravens to the playoffs and win playoff games and potentially another SB victory, he will be there. He is only 28 and just had a Montana-like playoff run.

 

 

Wow.. just wow.. your telling me that Average Joe hasnt had any quality players around him?? You have just shown me how deep your hateraid has gotten. What a crock of horse apples. 

BTW, Harbaugh Drafted Flacco... So... the Ravens sucked until HARBAUGH stepped into the picture, not Average Joe.

[Dustin]

I can assure Belichick was not a genius before arriving in NE. He was a solid DC but most gave Parcells the credit for the Giants two SB wins. I mean when you win with Jeff Hostetler that is pretty impressive.

 

Bill's HC resume prior to NE was below average as I stated. Most in NE was shocked that we have the Jets a number one pick for him and when he began 5-11 with Bledsoe in 2000 he was on the hot seat. The team started off 0-2 in 2001 and many were calling for his job until Brady stepped in and the rest is history...he was never considered a genius until he won that first SB with Brady. I still don't consider him a genius. Brady has covered for his JV defense for years now and would have rings #4 and #5 with a secondary that could actually do anything...

 

I mean you can assure me if you want, but it's still incorrect. Belichick was one of the most highly regarded D-coordinators in the league. I mean, it's not like you have some inside knowledge I don't know about.

[amfootball]

Wow.. just wow.. your telling me that Average Joe hasnt had any quality players around him?? You have just shown me how deep your hateraid has gotten. What a crock of horse apples. 

BTW, Harbaugh Drafted Flacco... So... the Ravens sucked until HARBAUGH stepped into the picture, not Average Joe.

Def. quality players just not HoF players. And as I said to another poster, Harbaugh drafted Joe with the 18th pick overall in his first season and has made the playoffs every year since...so yes, Harbaugh is a good coach for sure. He got the right guy behind center.

[MAC]

Y

The facts are these, until Flacco stepped on the scene, the Ravens stunk.

 

Didn't Harbaugh draft Joe?

 

Yeah, I think so.

Actually Ozzie Newsome drafted him, and hired Harbaugh for that matter. And Brian Billick might disagree with you about whether or not the Raven's "stunk". Four years of double digit wins, and if I recall, a Super Bowl victory. In fact the Ravens have won only one less SB in the past dozen years than the Pats have in 46. And one could say that Trent Dilfer was as important to their first SB win as Brady was to the Pats first SB win, and that Flacco was more important to the Ravens second SB win than Brady was to the Pats second SB win. If the only thing that matters is Super Bowl wins, they haven't "stunk", they've been one of the best teams in the league. Right?

 

Flacco took a step forward this year, yet it's hard to find a soul who would characterize either Dilger or Flacco (to this point in his career) as more than average QBs. Be careful AM, in your enthusiasm for minimizing Peyton's worth you are only reinforcing the old argument against Brady.

[amfootball]

I mean you can assure me if you want, but it's still incorrect. Belichick was one of the most highly regarded D-coordinators in the league. I mean, it's not like you have some inside knowledge I don't know about.

Yes, he was a great DC. Not arguing that. That is why he got the Browns job. I don't have insider info., the facts speak for themselves. He was terrible as a HC in Cleveland and NE until Brady arrived then he was a genius. The defense in the SB years were players largely drafted by Parcells. Belichick has not put a D anywhere near like the one Parcells assembled in NY or NE since. But Brady has carried the team.

[amfootball]

Actually Ozzie Newsome drafted him, and hired Harbaugh for that matter. And Brian Billick might disagree with you about whether or not the Raven's "stunk". Four years of double digit wins, and if I recall, a Super Bowl victory. In fact the Ravens have won only one less SB in the past dozen years than the Pats have in 46. And one could say that Trent Dilfer was as important to their first SB win as Brady was to the Pats first SB win, and that Flacco was more important to the Ravens second SB win than Brady was to the Pats second SB win. If the only thing that matters is Super Bowl wins, they haven't "stunk", they've been one of the best teams in the league. Right?

 

Flacco took a step forward this year, yet it's hard to find a soul who would characterize either Dilger or Flacco (to this point in his career) as more than average QBs. Be careful AM, in your enthusiasm for minimizing Peyton's worth you are only reinforcing the old argument against Brady.

Flacco has made the playoffs 5 straight years and won at least one playoff game. No QB in the history of football has done that. I am not minimizing Peyton. I said Joe still has a ways to go but he is not that far. I mean how can you argue at this point given the playoff appearances, the playoff wins, SB win, SB MVP? I mean that guy is right there. He needs more regular season wins and stats which should come in times as he is only going into year six. As people have stated, Harbaugh is a very good coach and Ozzie is a heck of a GM.

[Dustin]

Yes, he was a great DC. Not arguing that. That is why he got the Browns job. I don't have insider info., the facts speak for themselves. He was terrible as a HC in Cleveland and NE until Brady arrived then he was a genius. The defense in the SB years were players largely drafted by Parcells. Belichick has not put a D anywhere near like the one Parcells assembled in NY or NE since. But Brady has carried the team.

 

That's not true. Since, Bill has tooken over, he's fielded 9 top 10 defenses.

[southwest1]

They were glad to have horse face as the face of the franchise IMO How they got him did'nt matter .   The donkeys wanted Doom to take a pay cut or else , regardless of the fax snafu horse face said my way or the highway . So he goes to the team that ended there season .   priceless

Dumervil was exceptional at pass blocking, but was weak in the run blocking area & DE Dwight Freeney will do the exact same thing & display the exact same weakness. So Denver is right back where they started from. No real loss there. What's that old Russian mob expression? "Meet the next boss. Same as the old boss."   "The more things change; the more they stay the same" IMO. 

[amfootball]

That's not true. Since, Bill has tooken over, he's fielded 9 top 10 defenses.

After 2008 season is when the defensive rebuild took place. The years previous to that were Parcells guys.

 

Just check where pats secondary has ranked the last few seasons....

[Dustin]

After 2008 season is when the defensive rebuild took place. The years previous to that were Parcells guys.

 

12 years later huh? That sure is quite a window your leaving there.

 

Even if that is true, Bill has fielded 4 top ten defenses in those 5 years.

[amfootball]

12 years later huh? That sure is quite a window your leaving there.

 

But I'll humur you. Even if that is true, Bill has feilded 4 top ten defenses in those 5 years.

check the secondary stats....

[Yehoodi]

I should have probably pointed it out, but the main idea with posting Flacco's stat line was what I just mentioned to AM. They asked him to throw the ball 10 times in a playoff game. I realize it's just one game among many, but even in 2001, when the Patriots were basically asking Brady to manage games for the most part, he was throwing the ball a lot more than 10 times.

 

I would put Flacco in the "tier" just below the Big Four - Brady, Brees, Manning, and Rodgers. He needs to continue to play well to take the next step.

yes i figured that and that you weren't just pigeonholing him with a one game data, i have actually cited that game myself :-) . . . and felt too that my post was not quite in line with your post so to speak from a response standpoint, but i wanted to say my two cents and thought it be nice too use your post as with the likes and responses it hit the tenure of some of the feelings on this thread, which I took as some, not necessarily you, felt that Flacco maybe be more 2008 flacco than 2013 flacco . . .

Again i am not totally sole on the man, lets see what he can do not that some older starters are retired left and not that he is takening a bigger portion of the cap, and thus less potential for a extra good teammate or two . . .

But i will admit up until last year I viewed him as a 2008 flacco, but now with 5 years in and stepping back on his body of work, i have changed my opinion and justed give my two cents that I for one have given him two thumbs . . . we still need to see him perform as the leading of the team, which Manning has done since 1998, and see how he performs under that spot light . . .

And yes i know what you meant too . . . and yes Brady got a lot of help, especially in '01 and before the SB . . .

[Dustin]

check the secondary stats....

 

8th, 5th, 8th, 15th, and 9th in points allowed.

[amfootball]

8th, 5th, 8th, 15th, and 9th in points allowed.

Not points. What are the secondary rankings? Bottom of the league.

 

And the O was ranked in top 5 or number 1 those years. Brady carried the team as I said. And would have rings 4 and 5 if Bill put a decent secondary out there.

[Dustin]

Not points. What are the secondary rankings? Bottom of the league.

 

What does that matter? Point are the only thing that matters in the end.

[amfootball]

What does that matter? Point are the only thing that matters in the end.

If you watched the last two SBs they were in than you know the secondary folded at the end of both costing Brady rings 4 and 5. I am not sure if Eli even faced one third down in the SB from two years ago on the 90 yard drive to win the game.

[Yehoodi]

12 years later huh? That sure is quite a window your leaving there.

 

Even if that is true, Bill has fielded 4 top ten defenses in those 5 years.

I think am might of been talking about the early part of the decade, where four keys players (milloy, law, Brushci and McGinest) among others were drafted by Parcells . . .

[Dustin]

If you watched the last two SBs they were in than you know the secondary folded at the end of both costing Brady rings 4 and 5. I am not sure if Eli even faced one third down in the SB from two years ago on the 90 yard drive to win the game.

 

For somebody who scolds others for making excuses you sure do make a lot yourself.

[GoPats]

You are so far off on this topic. The debate was not if Flacco carried his team but that Manning made the players around him better. I pointed out the fact that Manning had the luxury of playing with HoFers such as Faulk, James, Harrison his career while Flacco has not had any although Rice could get there if he stays healthy and continues to produce. The facts are these, until Flacco stepped on the scene, the Ravens stunk. Do I need to remind you of the Grback or Boller days? And the D was just as stout those years as 2008 and beyond. Flacco's stat lines are never flashy but he wins. He does make plays and he does score points. He has gone to the playoffs every single year he has been the starting QB and won at least one playoff game. No one in the history of football has done that so don't act like what I am saying is hyperbole. It's not.

 

In terms of the Manning comparison. Another poster said the Flacco was 4/5 of Manning and I agreed with it. Right now Joe has as many playoff wins as Manning and less than half the losses. Manning did not win his first playoff game until his sixth season in the league. Joe also has zero one and done's compared to Manning's eight and a ring and a SB MVP, same as Manning. I realize Joe still has more to prove in the regular season which is why I agreed with the 4/5s comment. He is not there yet but if he continues to get the Ravens to the playoffs and win playoff games and potentially another SB victory, he will be there. He is only 28 and just had a Montana-like playoff run.

 

At this point I'm not even sure what distinction you're trying to make. "Carrying the team" and "making the players around him better" are essentially the same exact thing, no?

 

In carrying a team like Brady did with the Patriots' offense in 2005, he made guys like Reche Caldwell, Doug Gabriel, and Ben Watson look a lot better than they were.

 

Bottom line is this.

 

Until the 2012 playoffs, Joe Flacco was not regarded as anything close to "elite." Slightly better than average player on a very good team. Now, he has taken the next step, yes. But 2013 will be a watershed season for his career. He's either going to be "the man" or he'll be regarded as the QB who had a hot postseason and helped lead a veteran-heavy team to a title.

 

I'm not even debating that Flacco is or isn't 4/5ths of what Manning is right now... personally I think that's a little whacked in concept though.

 

(And keep pretending this is more about pumping up Flacco than it is about ripping on Manning, lol...)

[amfootball]

For somebody who scolds others for making excuses you sure do make a lot yourself.

What excuses? I think Belichick has been the reason why the Pats have stuggled to win a ring that last few years. I think the facts speak for themselves.

[Dustin]

What excuses? I think Belichick has been the reason why the Pats have stuggled to win a ring that last few years. I think the facts speak for themselves.

[amfootball]

At this point I'm not even sure what distinction you're trying to make. "Carrying the team" and "making the players around him better" are essentially the same exact thing, no?

 

In carrying a team like Brady did with the Patriots' offense in 2005, he made guys like Reche Caldwell, Doug Gabriel, and Ben Watson look a lot better than they were.

 

Bottom line is this.

 

Until the 2012 playoffs, Joe Flacco was not regarded as anything close to "elite." Slightly better than average player on a very good team. Now, he has taken the next step, yes. But 2013 will be a watershed season for his career. He's either going to be "the man" or he'll be regarded as the QB who had a hot postseason and helped lead a veteran-heavy team to a title.

 

I'm not even debating that Flacco is or isn't 4/5ths of what Manning is right now... personally I think that's a little whacked in concept though.

 

(And keep pretending this is more about pumping up Flacco than it is about ripping on Manning, lol...)

I see a distinction between carrying a team and making players better. To say Flacco does not make his players better is just plain false.

 

I never said Flacco was elite prior to 2012 either.

 

You can keep pretending that this is about Manning when it is not. You said it yourself. You don't necessartily disagree with the 4/5s rating either and I am not even the one that orginally said it. It was a poster called Throwing BBS on another thread. With a name like that he has to be right, right? :-)

[Superman]

I see a distinction between carrying a team and making players better. To say Flacco does not make his players better is just plain false.

 

I never said Flacco was elite prior to 2012 either.

 

You can keep pretending that this is about Manning when it is not. You said it yourself. You don't necessartily disagree with the 4/5s rating either and I am not even the one that orginally said it. It was a poster called Throwing BBS on another thread. With a name like that he has to be right, right? :-)

 

Let's assume this isn't about Manning.

 

It's amazing to me how many of your "conclusions" are based on incomplete or erroneous information.

[chad72]

Let's assume this isn't about Manning.

 

It's amazing to me how many of your "conclusions" are based on incomplete or erroneous information.

 

For what it is worth, a discussion is a conversation where one person speaks their viewpoint a few times, agrees to disagree, and moves on. An argument is where one behaves like a child trying to get the last word in incessantly. I can definitely see a pattern that arguments are more the norm with the aforementioned poster than discussions.

[GoPats]

I see a distinction between carrying a team and making players better. To say Flacco does not make his players better is just plain false.

 

I never said Flacco was elite prior to 2012 either.

 

You can keep pretending that this is about Manning when it is not. You said it yourself. You don't necessartily disagree with the 4/5s rating either and I am not even the one that orginally said it.

 

I said I think it's impossibly misguided to try to assign a numeric 1-5 ranking on NFL quarterbacks. But if forced to give an opinion, I would say Flacco has a long way to go still until he is regarded in the same way as Peyton Manning in historical context. I have grown to have a grudging respect for Manning, and I still think Brady is better, but you're still talking about one of the best ever at his position. Flacco is a long, long way from that.

 

And even if you just take the two guys in their current contexts, at their respective current ages, the gap is wider than you seem to want it to be.

 

Flacco got hot, and a little lucky. Not a criticism there, good players benefit from luck sometimes.

 

Look at this NFL.com article from JANUARY 2ND. A month before he hoisted the Lombardi and changed his legacy.

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000121186/article/joe-flacco-still-a-threat-despite-lateseason-struggles

[Superman]

For what it is worth, a discussion is a conversation where one person speaks their viewpoint a few times, agrees to disagree, and moves on. An argument is where one behaves like a child trying to get the last word in incessantly. I can definitely see a pattern that arguments are more the norm with the aforementioned poster than discussions.

 

I personally don't mind a good-natured argument (I know, shocking right?) But when one party either bases their statements on inaccurate information (despite accurate information being readily available, even provided), or changes their stance based on convenience, it's a whole nother story.

[amfootball]

For what it is worth, a discussion is a conversation where one person speaks their viewpoint a few times, agrees to disagree, and moves on. An argument is where one behaves like a child trying to get the last word in incessantly. I can definitely see a pattern that arguments are more the norm with the aforementioned poster than discussions.

Who is behaving like a child? I debate up here using facts all the time. You or anyone can disagree. I never take anything personal and realize others have a different viewpoint.

 

And last I checked, I am not debating with myself. :-) Others here like to have the last word way more than me...

[amfootball]

I said I think it's impossibly misguided to try to assign a numeric 1-5 ranking on NFL quarterbacks. But if forced to give an opinion, I would say Flacco has a long way to go still until he is regarded in the same way as Peyton Manning in historical context. I have grown to have a grudging respect for Manning, and I still think Brady is better, but you're still talking about one of the best ever at his position. Flacco is a long, long way from that.

 

And even if you just take the two guys in their current contexts, at their respective current ages, the gap is wider than you seem to want it to be.

 

Flacco got hot, and a little lucky. Not a criticism there, good players benefit from luck sometimes.

 

Look at this NFL.com article from JANUARY 2ND. A month before he hoisted the Lombardi and changed his legacy.

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000121186/article/joe-flacco-still-a-threat-despite-lateseason-struggles

Ok, let's go with 3/5's. :-)  Like I said, i didn't come up with the 4/5s statement. But as I have said before, I put way more stock behind playoff success and rings than regular season records/stats. That is just me. I have said that Joe has a ways to go in terms of the regular season stuff but playoffs/ring? He is right there. That is really not debatable. If you want to give more credit to his coaching, D, fine but he is still the guy with the 9-4 record and the ring and the SB MVP...

[amfootball]

funny, I think the same about you...

Let's assume this isn't about Manning.

 

It's amazing to me how many of your "conclusions" are based on incomplete or erroneous information.

[Gramz]

    :headspin:    

[Superman]

funny, I think the same about you...

 

Somehow that doesn't surprise me.

[amfootball]

Would you also believe that Superman is my favorite comic book character? Wonder Woman is a close second.

Somehow that doesn't surprise me.

[House]

Would you also believe that Superman is my favorite comic book character? Wonder Woman is a close second.

False.

Spider-Man.

[amfootball]

False.

Spider-Man.

Kind of wimpy, no?

[House]

Kind of wimpy, no?

No body beats Spider-Man. Fact.

Dude always finds a way.

Plus he's not afraid of rocks.

[amfootball]

No body beats Spider-Man. Fact.

Dude always finds a way.

Plus he's not afraid of rocks.

LOL! The green goblin got him pretty good. His girlfriend was kind of plain too IMO.

 

Superman has no limit to his strength, he keeps getting stronger and stronger but that kryptonite is an issue...