J. Taylor Contract

[husker61]

24 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Im sorry my friend.   I agree with almost none of this.   
 

First, I hope we don’t throw 40+ times a game as a routine.   I hope we only do it for an emergency when we’re behind and the running game.   Plenty of teams don’t throw 40+ per game week in or week out.  
 

Second….   I don’t understand your view on JT?    Your attitude appears to be the Colts had leverage and didn’t use it.  You’re mad the Colts didn’t put the screws to JT.   Ballard and Irsay recognize Indianapolis is not a destination franchise for free agents.   If you’re willing to put the screws to JT simply because you can, then you can say goodbye to keeping best guys because they know you’re willing to put the screws to them as well.  So much for having a high quality locker room who help one another.  What you want would blow up the locker-room.   And for what?  
 

There are limitations when you’re a small market franchise.   Trying to make the locker room and keep it a welcoming place to be is not just important — it’s EVERYTHING.    It’s how we keep players, and how the Colts can attract players as well. 
 

Sorry I couldn’t find common ground.   

no need to be sorry. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing, that makes things interesting! 
 

I think too much is made about players not wanting to go to small market teams. The nfl is more of a national sport than any other sport there is no local tv deal, just the same for everyone. I worked in manhattan when I was much younger and had no interest in living there. Now live in a md and have no interest of living or going to dc. Many people like small towns and would rather live in a rural area. 

[NewColtsFan]

8 minutes ago, husker61 said:

no need to be sorry. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing, that makes things interesting! 
 

I think too much is made about players not wanting to go to small market teams. The nfl is more of a national sport than any other sport there is no local tv deal, just the same for everyone. I worked in manhattan when I was much younger and had no interest in living there. Now live in a md and have no interest of living or going to dc. Many people like small towns and would rather live in a rural area. 

It’s not just small market teams in general.  It’s Indianapolis in particular.  To their credit,  Irsay and Ballard have freely and clearly said Indy is not a destination location for the vast majority of NFL players.   The only way to get big time talent to Indy is to massively over pay and Irsay and Ballard just don’t want to go down that road.  
 

So how do you attract good solid contributing players?   You create a great locker room.   Word gets around.   The players look after and take care of each other.   A good number of decent players want to be a part of that.  No knuckleheads.   Thats why I try to support that concept.   

[jvan1973]

2 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

Im sorry my friend.   I agree with almost none of this.   
 

First, I hope we don’t throw 40+ times a game as a routine.   I hope we only do it for an emergency when we’re behind and the running game.   Plenty of teams don’t throw 40+ per game week in or week out.  
 

Second….   I don’t understand your view on JT?    Your attitude appears to be the Colts had leverage and didn’t use it.  You’re mad the Colts didn’t put the screws to JT.   Ballard and Irsay recognize Indianapolis is not a destination franchise for free agents.   If you’re willing to put the screws to JT simply because you can, then you can say goodbye to keeping best guys because they know you’re willing to put the screws to them as well.  So much for having a high quality locker room who help one another.  What you want would blow up the locker-room.   And for what?  
 

There are limitations when you’re a small market franchise.   Trying to make the locker room and keep it a welcoming place to be is not just important — it’s EVERYTHING.    It’s how we keep players, and how the Colts can attract players as well. 
 

Sorry I couldn’t find common ground.   

There are 10 nfl markets smaller than Indy.   I'm not sure where this narrative comes from that Indy is some small little hick town in the middle of a cornfield

[DougDew]

5 hours ago, husker61 said:

no need to be sorry. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing, that makes things interesting! 
 

I think too much is made about players not wanting to go to small market teams. The nfl is more of a national sport than any other sport there is no local tv deal, just the same for everyone. I worked in manhattan when I was much younger and had no interest in living there. Now live in a md and have no interest of living or going to dc. Many people like small towns and would rather live in a rural area. 

A former DT of the Colts, Ellis Johnson, was a competitive bass fishing tournament contestant.  Had the boat, rods and reels, equipment, to be very good and actually turned pro after he retired from the Colts, IIRC.

 

I'd wager that a good portion of NFL players come from small towns/small markets and are not interested in the places the media thinks cool people want to live.

 

Can't speak to Irsay, but he does seem to have some of that trendy coolness take on things so he might in fact think that the lack of FAs is because of the Indy culture lifestyle.  Sounds like an excuse though.

[jvan1973]

28 minutes ago, DougDew said:

A former DT of the Colts, Ellis Johnson, was a competitive bass fishing tournament contestant.  Had the boat, rods and reels, equipment, to be very good and actually turned pro after he retired from the Colts, IIRC.

 

I'd wager that a good portion of NFL players come from small towns/small markets and are not interested in the places the media thinks cool people want to live.

 

Can't speak to Irsay, but he does seem to have some of that trendy coolness take on things so he might in fact think that the lack of FAs is because of the Indy culture lifestyle.  Sounds like an excuse though.

What has Irsay said about the Indy culture and FA signings?  Did I miss something?

[husker61]

I will never buy into the thinking paying players makes a better locker room! I could just feed into inflated egos. We’re Leonard comments and Taylor holdout part of a great locker room?

[DougDew]

4 minutes ago, husker61 said:

I will never buy into the thinking paying players makes a better locker room! I could just feed into inflated egos. We’re Leonard comments and Taylor holdout part of a great locker room?

What destroys a locker room is seeing players getting paid more for not performing any better than the next guy in his spot.   Those players have to either play to their level of pay or be held accountable and cut.  JMO.

[GoColts8818]

5 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

There are 10 nfl markets smaller than Indy.   I'm not sure where this narrative comes from that Indy is some small little hick town in the middle of a cornfield

Because even with smaller markets than them they are still in the bottom half close to bottom third of market size for a NFL team, thus they are small market team.  It’s not a bad thing.  It’s just a thing.  
 

As free agency goes I’ll stand by that the Colts don’t get free agents because of how their team is run not because they can’t.  When Grigson was here and would spend more in free agency the Colts had no problem landing big name free agents.  It just so happens Polian and now Ballard doesn’t believe in that approach.

 

Smaller teams than the Colts land big name free agents all the time.  In the NFL generally speaking players go to who pays them the most regardless of market size.

[DougDew]

11 minutes ago, GoColts8818 said:

Because even with smaller markets than them they are still in the bottom half close to bottom third of market size for a NFL team, thus they are small market team.  It’s not a bad thing.  It’s just a thing.  

The financial aspect of small market vs large market is nonsense, IMO.  There are more endorsements from local car dealerships in NYC than Indy?  So what. 

 

Andy Reid and Pat Mahomes are doing commercials for State Farm insurance, and they play for KC.

 

From a financial aspect, I'd say that avoiding a high state income tax rate on your NFL contract would be a greater financial incentive than the income generated by local endorsements.   

[NewColtsFan]

8 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

There are 10 nfl markets smaller than Indy.   I'm not sure where this narrative comes from that Indy is some small little hick town in the middle of a cornfield

Wow….  What I wrote must have really rubbed you the wrong way.   Why, is another story. 
 

First, in my lifetime, I’ve never thought of Indianapolis as “some small little hick town in the middle of a cornfield.”

 

Second, what is your metric for judging Indy as the 22nd biggest market with 10 smaller?   Population of the City?   Something else?   There are other metrics. 
 

Third,  you’re not going to deny that both Irsay and Ballard have been very clear that Indy is NOT a destination location for top NFL free agents.   That the only way for them to sign them is to over-pay them and they’re not interested in that.   
 

Fourth, how about the Colts are viewed as a small market team because they operate as a small market team.   In my 12+ years as a fan, the Colts spent big on free agency once….   2013, Grigson’s second year.   They haven’t done it again since.    And didn’t also Polian spend very little in free agency?    So by most outward appearances the Colts operate like a small market team. 
 

Fifth, when Ballard arrived one of the first things he did was to convince Irsay that he had to do a major upgrade on the entire facility.   That the team facility was an important attraction draw to players, especially players who have experienced the facilities that other teams have. 
 

Finally….  I’m very fond of Indianapolis.   I always speak well of the city and its people.   I’ve talked about wanting to come to Indy to take in a game.   I don’t think I’ve ever written a negative word about the city. 

Hope I answered your question.   Sorry to have bothered you so much. 

 

[DougDew]

17 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Third,  you’re not going to deny that both Irsay and Ballard have been very clear that Indy is NOT a destination location for top NFL free agents.   That the only way for them to sign them is to over-pay them and they’re not interested in that.  

Have they given the reasons behind their conclusions?   Or are we to conclude that they think players think Indy is a cultural hick town?

 

Have you considered the possibility that this is just an excuse for them losing battles?

[DougDew]

5 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

What has Irsay said about the Indy culture and FA signings?  Did I miss something?

I don't think so.  

 

I assume the topic of Indy being a cultural waste land for elite NFL players came from people outside of Indy.  But if Irsay actually thinks the average elite NFL player needs better night clubs to go to than what Indy offers, he's hanging in the wrong circles.

[NewColtsFan]

39 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Have they given the reasons behind their conclusions?   Or are we to conclude that they think players think Indy is a cultural hick town?

 

Have you considered the possibility that this is just an excuse for them losing battles?

As I wrote in my post….   This is the same approach taken by both Grigson and Polian.    So, no, I don’t think Ballard and/or Irsay are hiding behind anything.  
 

 

[DougDew]

30 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

As I wrote in my post….   This is the same approach taken by both Grigson and Polian.    So, no, I don’t think Ballard and/or Irsay are hiding behind anything.  
 

 

If I'm understanding what you are saying.  Irsay has said that the Colts cannot compete in signing the most expensive free agents because of the size of the market.   Or (and), the Indy market is not desirable to elite free agents because of what it is, (which means Irsay believes all elite free agents think alike and want the same things from a city)

 

If Irsay actually believes the latter, I'd say he should just pack up his things and leave town now, because he's obviously either not a Hoosier at heart or he stereotypes what the elite free agents want out of life (but that the other free agents are okay with Indy because it suits them)

 

I'm not criticizing you or Irsay.  Just saying that what you are saying doesn't quite portray Irsay in a nice light, IMO.  I'm probably not following.

[Superman]

1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

Third,  you’re not going to deny that both Irsay and Ballard have been very clear that Indy is NOT a destination location for top NFL free agents.   That the only way for them to sign them is to over-pay them and they’re not interested in that.  

 

I'm really curious about this, because I think it might be an interpretation that some have made, and is not exactly what Irsay and Ballard have said.

 

I believe that both have acknowledged that you often have to overpay in free agency, and we can all accept and acknowledge that as the nature of free agency signings. They believe relying heavily on free agency is not the best way to build the roster for sustained success. I don't know that either of them have connected that fact to Indy not being a major destination location for free agents. If you have a reference to the contrary, I'd love to see/hear it.

 

Quote

Fourth, how about the Colts are viewed as a small market team because they operate as a small market team.   In my 12+ years as a fan, the Colts spent big on free agency once….   2013, Grigson’s second year.   They haven’t done it again since.    And didn’t also Polian spend very little in free agency?    So by most outward appearances the Colts operate like a small market team. 

 

I'm probably muddying the waters here, this is not the primary point in the discussion... but I think 2013 spending is a little overrated. Grigson signed a bunch of mid level free agents in one offseason, but I don't think any of those signings really qualified as "spending big in free agency." The Cherilus contract got a lot of attention, but I think the scale of that contract was always exaggerated. I think Grigson did more in free agency than Polian did or Ballard does, but I think the classification of Grigson spending big in free agency is kind of overblown.

 

But again, to the bolded, I think the Colts are conservative in spending, especially in free agency, because they think that's the best way to build a roster. I don't necessarily think that's connected to the size of the market, or the resources available. 

[NewColtsFan]

17 minutes ago, DougDew said:

If I'm understanding what you are saying.  Irsay has said that the Colts cannot compete in signing the most expensive free agents because of the size of the market.   Or (and), the Indy market is not desirable to elite free agents because of what it is, (which means Irsay believes all elite free agents think alike and want the same things from a city)

 

If Irsay actually believes the latter, I'd say he should just pack up his things and leave town now, because he's obviously either not a Hoosier at heart or he stereotypes what the elite free agents want out of life (but that the other free agents are okay with Indy because they will settle)

 

I'm not criticizing you or Irsay.  Just saying that what you are saying doesn't quite portray Irsay in a nice light, IMO.  I'm probably not following.

When I arrived the Colts under Polian and Grigson were the second winningest franchise in the NFL.  And even including the Ballard years, the Colts I believe are the fourth winningest franchise for a span of 25 years.   I’d say Irsay has nothing to apologize for when it comes to how he does business.   In fact, I give Irsay credit for being willing to tell the fans news that may not be popular.   Telling fans that their beloved city isn’t a desirable destination for many elected players is not welcome news to most fans so I give Irsay major props.   I don’t think most owners would say this. 

[NewColtsFan]

23 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I'm really curious about this, because I think it might be an interpretation that some have made, and is not exactly what Irsay and Ballard have said.

 

I believe that both have acknowledged that you often have to overpay in free agency, and we can all accept and acknowledge that as the nature of free agency signings. They believe relying heavily on free agency is not the best way to build the roster for sustained success. I don't know that either of them have connected that fact to Indy not being a major destination location for free agents. If you have a reference to the contrary, I'd love to see/hear it.

 

 

I'm probably muddying the waters here, this is not the primary point in the discussion... but I think 2013 spending is a little overrated. Grigson signed a bunch of mid level free agents in one offseason, but I don't think any of those signings really qualified as "spending big in free agency." The Cherilus contract got a lot of attention, but I think the scale of that contract was always exaggerated. I think Grigson did more in free agency than Polian did or Ballard does, but I think the classification of Grigson spending big in free agency is kind of overblown.

 

But again, to the bolded, I think the Colts are conservative in spending, especially in free agency, because they think that's the best way to build a roster. I don't necessarily think that's connected to the size of the market, or the resources available. 

A rare disagreement for us.   But it’s pretty substantial, and I don’t think there’s much upside for debate.  
 

We've debated this before.   Ballard had to convince Irsay that it was in his best interest in re-doing the team facility.  That it was frankly — a dump.   And, it got done.  Irsay was living on the cheap (like a small market owner) until Ballard convinced him it was in his best interest to re-do the facility.  By the way, Cincinnati used to have the same type of facility, and it used to hurt them.  Now, they’ve redone their facility and it helps.  
 

As for Grigson, I literally wrote the words that he only spent big once.   But that he didn’t spend to that extent again.   What does that tell you?   The Colts didn’t get much bang for their buck from spending and they didn’t do it again.   
 

I’ve demonstrated that the Colts have operated as a small market team for 25 years spanning 3 GMs so I don’t understand your arguments.  The Colts operate as a small market team.  And the Colts also believe in Ballard’s modest spending in FA toward roster building.  Both can co-exist together.   It doesn’t have to be one or the other.   
 

I don’t know if I’ve answered your questions very well, but I found your post very confusing….   Frankly a little baffling. 
If I’ve missed the mark, my apologies.  

[ShuteAt168]

2 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

Wow….  What I wrote must have really rubbed you the wrong way.   Why, is another story. 
 

First, in my lifetime, I’ve never thought of Indianapolis as “some small little hick town in the middle of a cornfield.”

 

Second, what is your metric for judging Indy as the 22nd biggest market with 10 smaller?   Population of the City?   Something else?   There are other metrics. 
 

Third,  you’re not going to deny that both Irsay and Ballard have been very clear that Indy is NOT a destination location for top NFL free agents.   That the only way for them to sign them is to over-pay them and they’re not interested in that.   
 

Fourth, how about the Colts are viewed as a small market team because they operate as a small market team.   In my 12+ years as a fan, the Colts spent big on free agency once….   2013, Grigson’s second year.   They haven’t done it again since.    And didn’t also Polian spend very little in free agency?    So by most outward appearances the Colts operate like a small market team. 
 

Fifth, when Ballard arrived one of the first things he did was to convince Irsay that he had to do a major upgrade on the entire facility.   That the team facility was an important attraction draw to players, especially players who have experienced the facilities that other teams have. 
 

Finally….  I’m very fond of Indianapolis.   I always speak well of the city and its people.   I’ve talked about wanting to come to Indy to take in a game.   I don’t think I’ve ever written a negative word about the city. 

Hope I answered your question.   Sorry to have bothered you so much. 

 

I don’t remember CB or Irsay saying Indy is not a destination for top free agents so they’d have to overpay. But I’m probably wrong. You have a link? 

[DougDew]

31 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

When I arrived the Colts under Polian and Grigson were the second winningest franchise in the NFL.  And even including the Ballard years, the Colts I believe are the fourth winningest franchise for a span of 25 years.   I’d say Irsay has nothing to apologize for when it comes to how he does business.   In fact, I give Irsay credit for being willing to tell the fans news that may not be popular.   Telling fans that their beloved city isn’t a desirable destination for many elected players is not welcome news to most fans so I give Irsay major props.   I don’t think most owners would say this. 

You're defending Irsay here without ever getting to the point of what you wrote.   Why does Irsay think that Indy is not a destination for FA? 

 

If that's what Irsay has been told over the past 25 years by a variety of GMs, players, and agents, certainly he can repeat the reasons he's been given.  What are the reasons Irsay has given as to why free agents don't want to come to Indy?

 

[ShuteAt168]

52 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I'm really curious about this, because I think it might be an interpretation that some have made, and is not exactly what Irsay and Ballard have said.

 

I believe that both have acknowledged that you often have to overpay in free agency, and we can all accept and acknowledge that as the nature of free agency signings. They believe relying heavily on free agency is not the best way to build the roster for sustained success. I don't know that either of them have connected that fact to Indy not being a major destination location for free agents. If you have a reference to the contrary, I'd love to see/hear it.

 

 

I'm probably muddying the waters here, this is not the primary point in the discussion... but I think 2013 spending is a little overrated. Grigson signed a bunch of mid level free agents in one offseason, but I don't think any of those signings really qualified as "spending big in free agency." The Cherilus contract got a lot of attention, but I think the scale of that contract was always exaggerated. I think Grigson did more in free agency than Polian did or Ballard does, but I think the classification of Grigson spending big in free agency is kind of overblown.

 

But again, to the bolded, I think the Colts are conservative in spending, especially in free agency, because they think that's the best way to build a roster. I don't necessarily think that's connected to the size of the market, or the resources available. 

Yes, Ballard never zips it about not overpaying for free agents, but I don’t recall him saying it’s because free agents don’t want to go to Indy. I hope NewColtsFan can find the quotes he is referring to. 

[NewColtsFan]

10 minutes ago, DougDew said:

You're defending Irsay here without ever getting to the point of what you wrote.   Why does Irsay think that Indy is not a destination for FA? 

 

If that's what Irsay has been told over the past 25 years by a variety of GMs, players, and agents, certainly he can repeat the reasons he's been given.  What are the reasons Irsay has given as to why free agents don't want to come to Indy?

 

Remember, Irsay was the team’s GM before he was the owner.   So he has personal experience, plus the input of Polian, Grigson and Ballard.  
 

I have no idea as to the exact reason.   Only Irsay would know.   But I’m responding to you saying he should pack it in because he wasn’t a true Hoosier.  I don’t know what more Irsay has to do to ingratiate himself with you and others.  He lives in Indy.   He supports Indianapolis causes.   He’s as invested in the city as any owner could be.  
 

What more could you want?

 

[NewColtsFan]

16 minutes ago, ShuteAt168 said:

I don’t remember CB or Irsay saying Indy is not a destination for top free agents so they’d have to overpay. But I’m probably wrong. You have a link? 

Nope.   I’ve just heard them say it in interviews.    Wouldn’t know where to find that type of link.   

[DougDew]

9 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Remember, Irsay was the team’s GM before he was the owner.   So he has personal experience, plus the input of Polian, Grigson and Ballard.  
 

I have no idea as to the exact reason.   Only Irsay would know.   But I’m responding to you saying he should pack it in because he wasn’t a true Hoosier.  I don’t know what more Irsay has to do to ingratiate himself with you and others.  He lives in Indy.   He supports Indianapolis causes.   He’s as invested in the city as any owner could be.  
 

What more could you want?

 

First of all, don't misrep what I said.  I said IF Irsay thinks Indy is a hick town and he persistently stereotypes elite free agents as all wanting something more worldly (or not) than what Indy has to offer...as reason why FAs won't come here, I think he probably should resign as an NFL owner. 

 

I guess I'm just left with him not giving any reasons why Indy is perennially a losing city when it comes to free agent competition.  

 

 

 

 

[ShuteAt168]

5 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Nope.   I’ve just heard them say it in interviews.    Wouldn’t know where to find that type of link.   

Sorry, sir, pretty sure you are mistaken. I don’t think CB and Irsay have said such a thing. I googled it and there are numerous articles about Ballard and and free agency. None have him saying Indy isn’t a destination for top free agents. That would be a pretty surprising thing for any GM/owner to say. Honest mistake on your end, no biggie. 

[Superman]

4 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

A rare disagreement for us.   But it’s pretty substantial, and I don’t think there’s much upside for debate.  
 

We've debated this before.   Ballard had to convince Irsay that it was in his best interest in re-doing the team facility.  That it was frankly — a dump.   And, it got done.  Irsay was living on the cheap (like a small market owner) until Ballard convinced him it was in his best interest to re-do the facility.  By the way, Cincinnati used to have the same type of facility, and it used to hurt them.  Now, they’ve redone their facility and it helps.  
 

As for Grigson, I literally wrote the words that he only spent big once.   But that he didn’t spend to that extent again.   What does that tell you?   The Colts didn’t get much bang for their buck from spending and they didn’t do it again.   
 

I’ve demonstrated that the Colts have operated as a small market team for 25 years spanning 3 GMs so I don’t understand your arguments.  The Colts operate as a small market team.  And the Colts also believe in Ballard’s modest spending in FA toward roster building.  Both can co-exist together.   It doesn’t have to be one or the other.   
 

I don’t know if I’ve answered your questions very well, but I found your post very confusing….   Frankly a little baffling. 
If I’ve missed the mark, my apologies.  

 

First, I don't have any concern about you and I having a disagreement, because we have respect for each other. Even if we see things completely differently, I know that your comments are not intended to be rude or condescending, and I hope that you understand the same about my comments to you. So I don't think there's any need for an apology, even if we see this completely opposite of each other.

 

To the point, I think you're talking about a number of different things here, and I'd like to make sure we're on the same page. 

 

My main question for you is whether Ballard or Irsay have ever stated that the team would have to overpay for free agents specifically because players don't view Indianapolis as a desirable destination. I know that they've both said that free agency comes with overspending. I don't remember either of them linking that specifically to the destination. So is that something that you believe they've said? Or is it mostly your interpretation of what they've said?

 

I think that's important to know. If it's your interpretation, then we can just acknowledge that we interpret this differently. If they've actually said this, then maybe I need to reconsider my understanding of their strategy.

 

Also, I understand that you believe the Colts operate as a small market team. I don't necessarily disagree with that. But I don't equate conservative free agent spending to small market strategy; I think it's just a deliberate team building philosophy.

 

And to be clear, I'm not even arguing that Irsay or Ballard would be incorrect to say that Indy isn't a popular free agent destination. Maybe it's not; I don't think we've really seen that theory tested. But my question is whether that's actually what's been said, or if it's just the conclusion you've reached.

[NewColtsFan]

3 minutes ago, DougDew said:

First of all, don't misrep what I said.  I said IF Irsay thinks Indy is a hick town and he persistently stereotypes elite free agents as all wanting something more worldly (or not) than what Indy has to offer...as reason why FAs won't come here, I think he probably should resign as an NFL owner. 

 

I guess I'm just left with him not giving any reasons why Indy is perennially a losing city when it comes to free agent competition.  

 

 

 

 

I still don’t think I understand why you think there’s a scenario that would lead him to resign?    He’s had overwhelming success as an owner and he’s extremely involved in the community.  
 

Why would he ever resign? 

[JediXMan]

Well he’s getting surgery that sucks.

[DougDew]

Just now, NewColtsFan said:

I still don’t think I understand why you think there’s a scenario that would lead him to resign?    He’s had overwhelming success as an owner and he’s extremely involved in the community.  
 

Why would he ever resign? 

I guess you are not following the hypothetical, or do but are now trying to turn something I said as a hypothetical into something literal.  

 

There are several of us questioning your contention that Irsay himself said that Indy...as a geography of market or city...is not a destination for free agents, which puts him and his GMs at a disadvantage to (essentially) building a competitive team.  I would hope if this has been the prevailing message given to him over 25 years by agents, that the reasons he was given would have spilled out at some point.

 

5 minutes ago, JediXMan said:

Well he’s getting surgery that sucks.

A facture or a ligament? 

[NewColtsFan]

19 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I guess you are not following the hypothetical, or do but are now trying to turn something I said as a hypothetical into something literal.  

 

There are several of us questioning your contention that Irsay himself said that Indy...as a geography of market or city...is not a destination for free agents, which puts him and his GMs at a disadvantage to (essentially) building a competitive team.  I would hope if this has been the prevailing message given to him over 25 years by agents, that the reasons he was given would have spilled out at some point.

 

A facture or a ligament? 

Well….   If you’re going to question my memory,  then I should let you know that you’ve made the same version of the same post three times this year.  The post where you list all the wrong positions the Colts have drafted over the Ballard years as the reason why the Colts are where they are.  
 

The first time you made it, you won top poster of the day you received so many likes.   You then went on to post it twice more during the summer.  But the second time, there was a key change.   The first two times you listed the positions the Colts have used those picks in the top 37.  Then, when it looked like the Colts might not have Taylor this year, you changed it to the top 41 picks, because Taylor was pick 41.    Am I refreshing your memory?   
 

My memory may not be what it once was, but I think it’s better than many here, so I still sleep well at night. 

[DougDew]

10 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Well….   If you’re going to question my memory,  then I should let you know that you’ve made the same version of the same post three times this year.  The post where you list all the wrong positions the Colts have drafted over the Ballard years as the reason why the Colts are where they are.  
 

The first time you made it, you won top poster of the day you received so many likes.   You then went on to post it twice more during the summer.  But the second time, there was a key change.   The first two times you listed the positions the Colts have used those picks in the top 37.  Then, when it looked like the Colts might not have Taylor this year, you changed it to the top 41 picks, because Taylor was pick 41.    Am I refreshing your memory?   
 

My memory may not be what it once was, but I think it’s better than many here, so I still sleep well at night. 

 You seem to remember more about what I post than what you post.  That's weird.  I probably wrote the second time to include JT because JT was the main topic?

 

37 or 41, RB or not, I assume the points were close enough to resemble the same basic thought.  I hope that when a similar topic comes up, I post the similar thought close to how I posted it the other times.  LOL.    

 

OK, so the answer is that you don't remember Irsay providing us with the reasons agents said why he has to pay more than other teams to get a player to come to Indy.  That's fine. 

 

 

[husker61]

Just because a football team doesn’t spend a lot of money on free agents, doesn’t have anything to do with being a small market team. The patriots are in a huge market and don’t spend big money on free agents, they actually let players walk or trade them instead of having to pay most of them. Most nfl teams don’t do it because it rarely works, Washington and Dallas did it and it didn’t work and now they have changed. 

[husker61]

You can’t compare the nfl with baseball as far as big and small market teams! 

[NewColtsFan]

29 minutes ago, DougDew said:

 You seem to remember more about what I post than what you post.  That's weird.  I probably wrote the second time to include JT because JT was the main topic?

 

37 or 41, RB or not, I assume the points were close enough to resemble the same basic thought.  I hope that when a similar topic comes up, I post the similar thought close to how I posted it the other times.  LOL.    

 

OK, so the answer is that you don't remember Irsay providing us with the reasons agents said why he has to pay more than other teams to get a player to come to Indy.  That's fine. 

 

 

It’s not that I don’t remember, I don’t think Irsay has ever given specific details.   Only that Indy is not a destination location for top free agents.   I’d like to think if Irsay  had given specifics i’d have remembered that.   That would be a unique thing to be honest about.  I would never expect Irsay would be that candid.   
 

I find this pushback I’m getting here from you and others interesting.   I’ve written about this before, several times over the years,  and have never received this kind of head wind.  You’d think this is the first time I’ve said this publicly.   Far from it. 
 

Back to my memory,  to be accurate, you written that post three times, not twice.   The first two were identical, the third time had the change reflecting Taylor.   And I do think it’s interesting that I remember this so clearly and you don’t.   
 

In your own profile….  You can look at the last day you won top poster of the day.   That’s the day you posted that famous post for the first time.   Oddly enough, one of the things that stuck out about the post was that it read to me as a criticism of Ballard.   But the first pick on the list — center — wasn’t drafted by Ballard.  Ryan Kelly was drafted by Grigson.   And it’s to his ever lasting credit.   Back in 2016, there were already stories being written about how the 2017 OL class was shaping up to be the absolute worst class of O-lineman in history.   So Grigson — again to his credit — used picks 1, 3, 5, and 7 on Kelly, Clarke,  Haeg and a small center.   Best thing Grigson did before he lost his job.  He wanted to get lineman while he could.  In 2017,  Ballard didn’t use a pick on an OL until he took Zack Banner late in the 4th round.   The pickings were very, very slim. 
 

Sorry, I’ve been rambling a bit for needed context.   

[DougDew]

29 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

It’s not that I don’t remember, I don’t think Irsay has ever given specific details.   Only that Indy is not a destination location for top free agents.   I’d like to think if Irsay  had given specifics i’d have remembered that.   That would be a unique thing to be honest about.  I would never expect Irsay would be that candid.   
 

I find this pushback I’m getting here from you and others interesting.   I’ve written about this before, several times over the years,  and have never received this kind of head wind.  You’d think this is the first time I’ve said this publicly.   Far from it. 
 

Back to my memory,  to be accurate, you written that post three times, not twice.   The first two were identical, the third time had the change reflecting Taylor.   And I do think it’s interesting that I remember this so clearly and you don’t.   
 

In your own profile….  You can look at the last day you won top poster of the day.   That’s the day you posted that famous post for the first time.   Oddly enough, one of the things that stuck out about the post was that it read to me as a criticism of Ballard.   But the first pick on the list — center — wasn’t drafted by Ballard.  Ryan Kelly was drafted by Grigson.   And it’s to his ever lasting credit.   Back in 2016, there were already stories being written about how the 2017 OL class was shaping up to be the absolute worst class of O-lineman in history.   So Grigson — again to his credit — used picks 1, 3, 5, and 7 on Kelly, Clarke,  Haeg and a small center.   Best thing Grigson did before he lost his job.  He wanted to get lineman while he could.  In 2017,  Ballard didn’t use a pick on an OL until he took Zack Banner late in the 4th round.   The pickings were very, very slim. 
 

Sorry, I’ve been rambling a bit for needed context.   

I think what you are getting pushback from is the idea that Irsay publicly has said that agents told him that elite FAs won't sign to Indy because of geography/culture and need more money to offset that.  

 

What I personally find odd is that Irsay is basically telling us that the football player market thinks Indy and its people kind of stink as a town...and Irsay doesn't seem to offer any pushback to that. 

 

Did he tell the agents he thinks they are wrong? That Indy has a lot to offer an athlete, if they are not all cut from the same cloth?

 

I would think that if Irsay publicly tells us what football players think of the city, that he would follow that up with telling us how he defended his city and its people.  Silence seems weird, with sort of an implied agreement with the agents' opinion.

[ShuteAt168]

2 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

It’s not that I don’t remember, I don’t think Irsay has ever given specific details.   Only that Indy is not a destination location for top free agents.   I’d like to think if Irsay  had given specifics i’d have remembered that.   That would be a unique thing to be honest about.  I would never expect Irsay would be that candid.   
 

I find this pushback I’m getting here from you and others interesting.   I’ve written about this before, several times over the years,  and have never received this kind of head wind.  You’d think this is the first time I’ve said this publicly.   Far from it. 
 

Back to my memory,  to be accurate, you written that post three times, not twice.   The first two were identical, the third time had the change reflecting Taylor.   And I do think it’s interesting that I remember this so clearly and you don’t.   
 

In your own profile….  You can look at the last day you won top poster of the day.   That’s the day you posted that famous post for the first time.   Oddly enough, one of the things that stuck out about the post was that it read to me as a criticism of Ballard.   But the first pick on the list — center — wasn’t drafted by Ballard.  Ryan Kelly was drafted by Grigson.   And it’s to his ever lasting credit.   Back in 2016, there were already stories being written about how the 2017 OL class was shaping up to be the absolute worst class of O-lineman in history.   So Grigson — again to his credit — used picks 1, 3, 5, and 7 on Kelly, Clarke,  Haeg and a small center.   Best thing Grigson did before he lost his job.  He wanted to get lineman while he could.  In 2017,  Ballard didn’t use a pick on an OL until he took Zack Banner late in the 4th round.   The pickings were very, very slim. 
 

Sorry, I’ve been rambling a bit for needed context.   

I doubt Irsay has ever said Indy is not a top destination location for free agents. I searched it. In fact, a story in the Star indicated the exact opposite. The media was giving attention to the fact that CB was sitting on cash and not signing free agents. Irsay said this, “You know when free agency hit, we had the lines in the water on several other guys and we didn’t get them. We could’ve got them, but Chris is very disciplined in his belief on how you build a team and it was great to see him stick by his discipline.”

 

This is when Irsay would have said “Ya know, free agents don’t like Indianapolis or the people or the color blue or horseshoes.” Instead, he says “We could’ve got them.” Money was the only factor. 
 

Honestly, you think Irsay would say Indy is not a top destination for free agents and not say why or no one would ask him to elaborate? No harm no foul, you just remembered this wrong. I’m out. 

[jvan1973]

41 minutes ago, ShuteAt168 said:

I doubt Irsay has ever said Indy is not a top destination location for free agents. I searched it. In fact, a story in the Star indicated the exact opposite. The media was giving attention to the fact that CB was sitting on cash and not signing free agents. Irsay said this, “You know when free agency hit, we had the lines in the water on several other guys and we didn’t get them. We could’ve got them, but Chris is very disciplined in his belief on how you build a team and it was great to see him stick by his discipline.”

 

This is when Irsay would have said “Ya know, free agents don’t like Indianapolis or the people or the color blue or horseshoes.” Instead, he says “We could’ve got them.” Money was the only factor. 
 

Honestly, you think Irsay would say Indy is not a top destination for free agents and not say why or no one would ask him to elaborate? No harm no foul, you just remembered this wrong. I’m out. 

If he said that publicly,  it would certainly have made the local news

[NewColtsFan]

5 hours ago, Superman said:

 

First, I don't have any concern about you and I having a disagreement, because we have respect for each other. Even if we see things completely differently, I know that your comments are not intended to be rude or condescending, and I hope that you understand the same about my comments to you. So I don't think there's any need for an apology, even if we see this completely opposite of each other.

 

To the point, I think you're talking about a number of different things here, and I'd like to make sure we're on the same page. 

 

My main question for you is whether Ballard or Irsay have ever stated that the team would have to overpay for free agents specifically because players don't view Indianapolis as a desirable destination. I know that they've both said that free agency comes with overspending. I don't remember either of them linking that specifically to the destination. So is that something that you believe they've said? Or is it mostly your interpretation of what they've said?

 

I think that's important to know. If it's your interpretation, then we can just acknowledge that we interpret this differently. If they've actually said this, then maybe I need to reconsider my understanding of their strategy.

 

Also, I understand that you believe the Colts operate as a small market team. I don't necessarily disagree with that. But I don't equate conservative free agent spending to small market strategy; I think it's just a deliberate team building philosophy.

 

And to be clear, I'm not even arguing that Irsay or Ballard would be incorrect to say that Indy isn't a popular free agent destination. Maybe it's not; I don't think we've really seen that theory tested. But my question is whether that's actually what's been said, or if it's just the conclusion you've reached.

Just wanted to drop a quick note to say thanks for the classy response.   Much appreciated, though not surprised.   I’ll be trying to send more responsive post either much later tonight or tomorrow.  
 

Things are little crazy here tonight. Tomorrow looks to be better.   Didn’t want you to think I had blown you off.  
 

 

[RollerColt]

I think a major selling point for free agents coming to Indy is having:

 

1. A franchise QB who always gives his team a chance for winning. 

2. A stable, winning head coach who has the faith of the locker room. 

 

3. A front office willing to pay money.

 

There are other external factors but I think if you have those three above covered you’ll have players wanting to come to the team. 

[NewColtsFan]

7 hours ago, DougDew said:

I think what you are getting pushback from is the idea that Irsay publicly has said that agents told him that elite FAs won't sign to Indy because of geography/culture and need more money to offset that.  

 

What I personally find odd is that Irsay is basically telling us that the football player market thinks Indy and its people kind of stink as a town...and Irsay doesn't seem to offer any pushback to that. 

 

Did he tell the agents he thinks they are wrong? That Indy has a lot to offer an athlete, if they are not all cut from the same cloth?

 

I would think that if Irsay publicly tells us what football players think of the city, that he would follow that up with telling us how he defended his city and its people.  Silence seems weird, with sort of an implied agreement with the agents' opinion.

Ok….  I’m more confused than ever.   No where have I ever said that Irsay was told anything by agents.   Those are your words, not mine.   
 

All I’ve ever said is that top free agents won’t sign with Indy unless the Colts overpay.   That’s it.   
 

I think you’re reading way too much into way too little. 

[NewColtsFan]

5 hours ago, ShuteAt168 said:

I doubt Irsay has ever said Indy is not a top destination location for free agents. I searched it. In fact, a story in the Star indicated the exact opposite. The media was giving attention to the fact that CB was sitting on cash and not signing free agents. Irsay said this, “You know when free agency hit, we had the lines in the water on several other guys and we didn’t get them. We could’ve got them, but Chris is very disciplined in his belief on how you build a team and it was great to see him stick by his discipline.”

 

This is when Irsay would have said “Ya know, free agents don’t like Indianapolis or the people or the color blue or horseshoes.” Instead, he says “We could’ve got them.” Money was the only factor. 
 

Honestly, you think Irsay would say Indy is not a top destination for free agents and not say why or no one would ask him to elaborate? No harm no foul, you just remembered this wrong. I’m out. 

Trust me, you’re not out.   You telling me I’m wrong is your happy place.   You’ll be back again and again to tell me you think I’m wrong.   
 

I don’t think you need much imagination to guess what I think of your opinion.  Our friendship was fun while it lasted.