Facyson vs. Rodgers

[Pat Curtis]

10 hours ago, coming on strong said:

In coverage facyon is not bad he is solid . It’s the run and screen game that is killing us . That is where rock shined . Rock was a very physical tackler and would blow up screen plays .  Losing two very physical secondary players in Willis and rock made us vulnerable to screens and outside runs .

 

Rock was a 2x state champion wrestler in High School.  Yeah, not Penn State or Iowa caliber but....wrestlers are built different.  We in Indiana know that.  We produce some top D1 caliber wrestlers...including NCAA 2x Champion for Penn State (from Evansville Matre Dei) Nick Lee.

 

We lost a lot of toughness on the edge trading RYS.

[GRUMPY OLD MAN]

On 10/17/2022 at 6:45 PM, AustinnKaine said:

Facyson is flat out bad. The only reason he is on this roster is Gus Bradley.  There is nothing positive about his play. Actually would be surprised if he plays at all this sunday. 

why did ballard want facyson?

[w87r]

9 minutes ago, DEFENSE said:

why did ballard want facyson?

Gus Bradley wanted Facyson.

 

He is pretty cheap, was worth the gamble to bring in someone familiar with Gus's system.

 

Think that leash needs shortened substantially.

[EastStreet]

7 hours ago, Nickster said:

 

You mentioned Blackmon.  It was a major boost to this Defense when he went down.  I don't know if I'd say the other guys are that good at FS in 3, but they are competent.   JB was a terrible, incompetent FS in this system.  

 

Personnel has often baffled me with this regime.  The Facyson/Rodgers thing seems to follow in the same vein.  It's almost like management doesn't trust the film.  They are in denial it seems at times. 

 

Same thing IMO with Taylor.  Taylor should not be in the game on obvious passing games.  His pass pro is horrendous and his route running is very clunky.  He's not got the lateral quickness to be a good, short route guy.  We have a UDFA last week take 10 catches and pick up blitzes all day long.  It should be obvious when you watch film that Taylor is a bad option in 3rd and long.    Hopefully, Taylor's injury will be another blessing in disguise for the squad and Jackson or anyone else really will be used on passing downs. 

 

Maybe we need need Facyson to get injured if we are going to continue to not believe what our eyes see on tape. 

 

Blackmon should go to SS. Said it since we drafted him. 

 

I disagree on JT. Haven't paid a lot attention this year, but his first two seasons were decent at blocking. He got several props last year IIRC. IIRC, I especially remember the NE game. And to say he doesn't have any lateral quickness is silly. I believe he had the most forced missed tackles last year, and was #1 in both juke rate and evaded tackles. 

 

Our problem is that Ds have adjusted. And Reich hasn't countered. Just still the same script. 

[EastStreet]

6 hours ago, shasta519 said:

 

Agree. The solution seems pretty simple if the goal is to get Rodgers on the field.

 

Curious to see what they do with Blackmon if he's ready to come back. Thomas has outplayed him (even if you take away the freebie INT). 

 

Not that different from the Rodgers/Facyson scenario.

 

I'm not sold on Thomas. Agree he's probably better at FS (than Blackmon), but he's allowed 2 TDs. Small sample size, and he's a rook. So safety, in general, is still cloudy for me. I would also like to see both Cross and McLeod at FS too, and compare. 

 

CB is a lot clearer, in terms of what we need to do. 

[AKB]

43 minutes ago, DEFENSE said:

why did ballard want facyson?

ask his mom. i dont know

[Nickster]

34 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

Blackmon should go to SS. Said it since we drafted him. 

 

I disagree on JT. Haven't paid a lot attention this year, but his first two seasons were decent at blocking. He got several props last year IIRC. IIRC, I especially remember the NE game. And to say he doesn't have any lateral quickness is silly. I believe he had the most forced missed tackles last year, and was #1 in both juke rate and evaded tackles. 

 

Our problem is that Ds have adjusted. And Reich hasn't countered. Just still the same script. 

Look up pass pro pff grades for JT.  

[DougDew]

49 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

And to say he doesn't have any lateral quickness is silly. I believe he had the most forced missed tackles last year, and was #1 in both juke rate and evaded tackles. 

I can't speak about his pass pro...I simply haven't watched.   But I agree with @Nickster about the agility.  I think JT has a little, but he is not the best turning a sharp corner or stringing several lateral moves together.

 

This is where the eye test sees things the stats don't.  We all know that he runs up the gut.  So he is juking guys in a phone booth, Evading them though a hole in the oline while running in basically the same path.  That's not the same skill or talent as catching a pass in space in the flat and being able to make guys miss.  Or suddenly bouncing a run outside when there is no hole in the middle.  Jackson appears to have more of that kind of agility, IMO.

[EastStreet]

26 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I can't speak about his pass pro...I simply haven't watched.   But I agree with @Nickster about the agility.  I think JT has a little, but he is not the best turning a sharp corner or stringing several lateral moves together.

 

This is where the eye test sees things the stats don't.  We all know that he runs up the gut.  So he is juking guys in a phone booth, Evading them though a hole in the oline while running in basically the same path.  That's not the same skill or talent as catching a pass in space in the flat and being able to make guys miss.  Or suddenly bouncing a run outside when there is no hole in the middle.  Jackson appears to have more of that kind of agility, IMO.

 

For both you guys... ....

Did you guys realize that Denver and Jax went mostly "light box" vs Indy? Why? Because JT was out lol.... What RB is #3 in snap% vs light front boxes... That is Jackson. And had 0% snaps vs stacked fronts. 

 

Sorry disagree. JT's agility is fine. Our scheme is pound between OTs. Still, Taylor's YPC outside OTs in 2021 was almost double the NFL average. And IIRC, his receiving grade (for RBs) was top 3 most year in 2021. And his blocking grade last season was good after week 5, when our OL improved later. Almost every RB's blocking grade fluctuated with OL's pass pro grade. 

 

And now folks want to zero on a game when we go tempo lol... Of course the OL looked better with tempo. Passing looks better of course. So does RB blocking... When we are not using tempo, and use longer routes, of course our OL would look like swiss cheese. But running looked very meh... Jackson was under 4 ypc. But he is definitely stronger than Hines. 

[Nickster]

9 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

For both you guys... ....

Did you guys realize that Denver and Jax went mostly "light box" vs Indy? Why? Because JT was out lol.... What RB is #3 in snap% vs light front boxes... That is Jackson. And had 0% snaps vs stacked fronts. 

 

Sorry disagree. JT's agility is fine. Our scheme is pound between OTs. Still, Taylor's YPC outside OTs in 2021 was almost double the NFL average. And IIRC, his receiving grade (for RBs) was top 3 most year in 2021. And his blocking grade last season was good after week 5, when our OL improved later. Almost every RB's blocking grade fluctuated with OL's pass pro grade. 

 

And now folks want to zero on a game when we go tempo lol... Of course the OL looked better with tempo. Passing looks better of course. So does RB blocking... When we are not using tempo, and use longer routes, of course our OL would look like swiss cheese. But running looked very meh... Jackson was under 4 ypc. But he is definitely stronger than Hines. 

Did you look up his pass pro grades?

Just now, Nickster said:

Did you look up his pass pro grades?

You also know JT has never faced heavy boxes at a high rate.

[Dingus McGirt]

On 10/17/2022 at 8:42 PM, ColtsLegacy said:

 

Gilly > Rock... I'd argue Rodgers > Rock...

 

The loss of Rock is not the issue. The continued reliance and unwavering belief in Facyson is the problem.

For the DC, after the 6th game, to excuse his pal by saying - “he just needs to play better,” is ridiculous.  Reich and/or Ballard need to quash that garbage.

[DougDew]

10 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

For both you guys... ....

Did you guys realize that Denver and Jax went mostly "light box" vs Indy? Why? Because JT was out lol.... What RB is #3 in snap% vs light front boxes... That is Jackson. And had 0% snaps vs stacked fronts. 

 

Sorry disagree. JT's agility is fine. Our scheme is pound between OTs. Still, Taylor's YPC outside OTs in 2021 was almost double the NFL average. And IIRC, his receiving grade (for RBs) was top 3 most year in 2021. And his blocking grade last season was good after week 5, when our OL improved later. Almost every RB's blocking grade fluctuated with OL's pass pro grade. 

 

And now folks want to zero on a game when we go tempo lol... Of course the OL looked better with tempo. Passing looks better of course. So does RB blocking... When we are not using tempo, and use longer routes, of course our OL would look like swiss cheese. But running looked very meh... Jackson was under 4 ypc. But he is definitely stronger than Hines. 

I think its common sense to know that it takes more agility to make a DB or OLB miss in the flat than it does to make a DT or MIKE miss up the middle, not to mention that the kinetic physics of the runner is different.  So any type of ranking of JT has been heavily populated with him evading heavier defenders, where he might just have to take a step to the side, whereas evading lighter guys in the flat requires more severe lateral moves...usually.    I simply think Jackson has shown to have more of that than JT, that's all.   

[EastStreet]

14 hours ago, Nickster said:

Did you look up his pass pro grades?

You also know JT has never faced heavy boxes at a high rate.

I'm the one posted all of his box rates (JT)....

Jackson is #3 (most light boxes)

Taylor is #27

[EastStreet]

13 hours ago, DougDew said:

I think its common sense to know that it takes more agility to make a DB or OLB miss in the flat than it does to make a DT or MIKE miss up the middle, not to mention that the kinetic physics of the runner is different.  So any type of ranking of JT has been heavily populated with him evading heavier defenders, where he might just have to take a step to the side, whereas evading lighter guys in the flat requires more severe lateral moves...usually.    I simply think Jackson has shown to have more of that than JT, that's all.   

 

Big words are not your friend lol...

 

He was top 10 in breakaways, means he went long, through the DL, the LB unit, and through DBs... 

 

And on LBs... depending what D.... and nickel LBs (like Leonard and Oke) are all expected to cover (passing) and tackle. And the league is mostly in nickel. And 3-4 OLBs are typically bigger and slower (and focused on pass rush)... So your theory is bad... 

[Moosejawcolt]

1 hour ago, EastStreet said:

 

Big words are not your friend lol...

 

He was top 10 in breakaways, means he went long, through the DL, the LB unit, and through DBs... 

 

And on LBs... depending what D.... and nickel LBs (like Leonard and Oke) are all expected to cover (passing) and tackle. And the league is mostly in nickel. And 3-4 OLBs are typically bigger and slower (and focused on pass rush)... So your theory is bad... 

Sorry have to agree with Doug . U can throw out all the stats. JT is a shot out the cannon type of back. I don't see a lot of wiggle. But what so u expect from a guy pushing 230. The only back in the league with elite speed, size and wiggle is Barkley.

[DougDew]

10 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

Big words are not your friend lol...

 

He was top 10 in breakaways, means he went long, through the DL, the LB unit, and through DBs... 

 

And on LBs... depending what D.... and nickel LBs (like Leonard and Oke) are all expected to cover (passing) and tackle. And the league is mostly in nickel. And 3-4 OLBs are typically bigger and slower (and focused on pass rush)... So your theory is bad... 

Using stats is not your friend.

 

We're talking about the singular cohort of lateral agility.  We all know that JT runs up the middle, so he hasn't even had opportunities to display it much in terms of swing passes and edge runs....so it can't even be a big part of the data set you're using.  Quoting evade stats and break away stats is not supporting lateral agility.  Using those stats in the context of how he runs, it indicates speed, power, and balance after contact in a straight-ish line.

 

Simply saying that to catch swing passes or run to the boundary and turn the corner requires more lateral agility than running up the gut.  That isn't disputable.  We're simply saying that it looks like Jackson does that better than JT.  If you don't think so, so be it, but don't pretend that your opinion is any better supported because the stats you use do not speak to his lateral agility being the same as Jackson's.  The data sets are incomplete.

[EastStreet]

11 hours ago, DougDew said:

Using stats is not your friend.

 

We're talking about the singular cohort of lateral agility.  We all know that JT runs up the middle, so he hasn't even had opportunities to display it much in terms of swing passes and edge runs....so it can't even be a big part of the data set you're using.  Quoting evade stats and break away stats is not supporting lateral agility.  Using those stats in the context of how he runs, it indicates speed, power, and balance after contact in a straight-ish line.

 

Simply saying that to catch swing passes or run to the boundary and turn the corner requires more lateral agility than running up the gut.  That isn't disputable.  We're simply saying that it looks like Jackson does that better than JT.  If you don't think so, so be it, but don't pretend that your opinion is any better supported because the stats you use do not speak to his lateral agility being the same as Jackson's.  The data sets are incomplete.

 

Stats are simple facts. And you typical simple facts.

 

and.... 

"singular cohort of lateral agility"

 

[EastStreet]

20 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Sorry have to agree with Doug . U can throw out all the stats. JT is a shot out the cannon type of back. I don't see a lot of wiggle. But what so u expect from a guy pushing 230. The only back in the league with elite speed, size and wiggle is Barkley.

 

JT is just fine. He killed it with a mediocre OL last year. Ds have adjusted to Indy now, and our O hasn't countered. And our OL is still mediocre, or worse. We also don't have two guys who were great blockers (Doyle and Pascal). That is why you have Mo staying blocking most plays. 

 

And you hit the nail in the head. Barkley is rare... Think about what you just said for a minute.... ONLY BACK that you meets criteria. Perhaps your expectations are unrealistic if only one back fits your criteria lol... 

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, EastStreet said:

 

Stats are simple facts. And you typical simple facts.

 

and.... 

"singular cohort of lateral agility"

 

Simple stats are simple facts for simpletons. 

 

A more complex stat would break out elusiveness in the boundary runs and swing passes (which is the question) from the "elusiveness" tabulated from the straight ahead runs.  

 

A simpleton can't see the difference.

 

And you get more immature and smart alecky as you circle the drain....

[EastStreet]

2 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Simple stats are simple facts for simpletons. 

 

A more complex stat would break out elusiveness in the boundary runs and swing passes (which is the question) from the "elusiveness" tabulated from the straight ahead runs.  

 

A simpleton can't see the difference.

 

And you get more immature and smart alecky as you circle the drain....

lol.

 

There are plenty of advanced stats... like juke rate. broken tackles. evaded tackles, forced missed tackles. breakaway rate....

 

But hey, none support you. So you need a new "Doug Dew complex stat" to support your narrative. 

 

Sorry, but it's getting funnier and funnier. 

[Moosejawcolt]

3 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

JT is just fine. He killed it with a mediocre OL last year. Ds have adjusted to Indy now, and our O hasn't countered. And our OL is still mediocre, or worse. We also don't have two guys who were great blockers (Doyle and Pascal). That is why you have Mo staying blocking most plays. 

 

And you hit the nail in the head. Barkley is rare... Think about what you just said for a minute.... ONLY BACK that you meets criteria. Perhaps your expectations are unrealistic if only one back fits your criteria lol... 

Well can u think of another back in the league who is as gifted as Barkley? If not for injuries, I think we would be taking about himself as one of the greatest. 

[DougDew]

6 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

There are plenty of advanced stats... like juke rate. broken tackles. evaded tackles, forced missed tackles. breakaway rate....

 

Yeah, you said that before.

[jbaron04]

On 10/18/2022 at 8:00 PM, w87r said:

Gus Bradley wanted Facyson.

 

He is pretty cheap, was worth the gamble to bring in someone familiar with Gus's system.

 

Think that leash needs shortened substantially.

We should have gotten bradberry like everyone was saying but Ballard has to get his unknown guys who might have potential but never pan out 

[EastStreet]

On 10/20/2022 at 11:28 PM, Moosejawcolt said:

Well can u think of another back in the league who is as gifted as Barkley? If not for injuries, I think we would be taking about himself as one of the greatest. 

Point is your expectations are unrealistic. JT is fine. 

[Moosejawcolt]

1 hour ago, EastStreet said:

Point is your expectations are unrealistic. JT is fine. 

I do remember having unrealistic  expectations. I think JT is an elite back. I just have not seen another rb with Barkley's speed, size and sanderesque jukes on my life. Can u think of somebody else?

Just now, Moosejawcolt said:

I do remember having unrealistic  expectations. I think JT is an elite back. I just have not seen another rb with Barkley's speed, size and sanderesque jukes on my life. Can u think of somebody else?

Meant to say I don't have unrealistic expectations 

[EastStreet]

7 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I do remember having unrealistic  expectations. I think JT is an elite back. I just have not seen another rb with Barkley's speed, size and sanderesque jukes on my life. Can u think of somebody else?

Meant to say I don't have unrealistic expectations 

You were correct the first time lol

It's simply rare to have 10 level dance and 10 level power and 10 level speed. 

[jbaron04]

On 10/16/2022 at 9:14 PM, GoColts8818 said:

Gus likes Facyson.  Time for Frank to go to Gus and say we are making a change, Rodgers starts.  

Frank can’t go to Gus about facyson when he still keeping Pryor starting 

[GoColts8818]

8 hours ago, jbaron04 said:

Frank can’t go to Gus about facyson when he still keeping Pryor starting 

He could,  one has nothing to do with the other.  Unfortunately Frank gave Facyson the same vote of confidence that Gus did.