Colts Select Bernhard Raimann at 77

[shasta519]

On 5/15/2022 at 1:34 AM, EastStreet said:

 

I'm not really worried about age. He didn't start playing FB until 14, and did so across the pond at G. The fact he played TE those years, and didn't have all the weight he has now, is likely a benefit from a wear and tear perspective. And there are a ton of TE to OL converts in the league, so not really worried about that. I listed a bunch last year, and it surprised even me. The compulsory year in Austria's armed forces slowed his development (weight especially) I'm sure, but also a rest on the body.

 

Overall, just not that concerned. I'd be very happy if we simply got 8 years out of him as a starter or quality backup. And honestly, you never know what position he might end up at. Pinter was a TE turned OT, that played OC for us a bit last year, and will likely end up at guard. Rainmann was all-MAC, and IMO projects more likely to tackle than Pinter, but could go either way. 

 

As far as the measurables, I've included the RAS below for the 1st OT taken in the draft (Ekwonu), and also for Braden Smith. 

Strength wise (bench), and agility (shuttle and 3 cone), Raimann measured better that Ekwonu. Ekwonu's only clear advantage is in the 40, which I'm not so concerned about. Not saying Rainmann will be as good or better than Ekwonu, just noting the measurables. 

 

 

 

 

Raimann is a TE convert, who was also age 24. He should test well. I would bet you could take most 250 lb D1 TEs...put them on a legit training program to add 50-60 lbs...and they most would test well in shorts, compared to other OL players.

 

I think far too much is being made about RAS scores now. But that's a different discussion. 

 

Even with his raw athletic ability, Raimann still has issues with footwork. You could see it at the Senior Bowl, where he had very mixed results against legit NFL prospects. And the ERs are only going to get better and faster at the next level.

 

And then you have the fact that he's still learning the position, including the fundamentals. 

 

The chronic knee tendinitis was just a rumor. But while he might have less wear and tear from not carrying all of that weight long, I would argue it's a risk because his body isn't as used to it. For all we know, the added weight caused the chronic knee tendinitis. But those are just rumors, so I am not too worried about it until something happens.

 

Ikem is 3+ years younger than Raimann. And was a consensus All-American in the ACC at age 21. Let's see how he tests at age 24. 

 

It's funny you brought up Ikem because the team that drafted him, did so the year AFTER they drafted OT prospect Brady Christensen, who was basically the same age as Raimann and had a nearly identical RAS score. Even went in the same part of the draft.

 

So even if you are not concerned about age, it's definitely relevant in regards to NFL projection (and to NFL scouts and GMs).

 

And that's all we are talking about here...projection. I never said Raimann was a bad NFL prospect, I just don't think he was some great steal of the draft or someone that they can just pencil in as the franchise LT. 

 

 

 

 

[DougDew]

2 hours ago, shasta519 said:

The chronic knee tendinitis was just a rumor. But while he might have less wear and tear from not carrying all of that weight long, I would argue it's a risk because his body isn't as used to it. For all we know, the added weight caused the chronic knee tendinitis. But those are just rumors, so I am not too worried about it until something happens.

Yes.  Its something that Madden used to say, not that he's any expert on physiology, but that an excessive amount of muscle mass added on to a frame that is not natural to handle it can cause stress on the ligaments, etc.  A thinned framed person is likely going to have thinner ligaments and tendons, and attached to the bone less securely, than a thick framed person.  Adding more muscle...by whatever means....could run the risk of the ligaments and tendons being harmed rather than if they were thicker and more robustly secured to the bone.  Nothing is an absolute, but the risks can be different.

[Four2itus]

This is a big dude.

 

[shasta519]

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

Yes.  Its something that Madden used to say, not that he's any expert on physiology, but that an excessive amount of muscle mass added on to a frame that is not natural to handle it can cause stress on the ligaments, etc.  A thinned framed person is likely going to have thinner ligaments and tendons, and attached to the bone less securely, than a thick framed person.  Adding more muscle...by whatever means....could run the risk of the ligaments and tendons being harmed rather than if they were thicker and more robustly secured to the bone.  Nothing is an absolute, but the risks can be different.

 

Yep. That seems very intuitive. And while I too am not physiology expert, I can definitely see chronic knee tendinitis resulting from it, or at the very least being more of a concern with the added weight.

[EastStreet]

11 hours ago, shasta519 said:

 

Raimann is a TE convert, who was also age 24. He should test well. I would bet you could take most 250 lb D1 TEs...put them on a legit training program to add 50-60 lbs...and they most would test well in shorts, compared to other OL players.

Sure, but testing isn't minimized, just because he's a convert 3 years ago? right? And he obviously performed at the highest level of his conference (All-MAC), even though it's a smaller conference. And like I mentioned, there are a ton of converted TE-OTs/OLs....

 

The below is geared toward TE coverts that ended up at OC (in reply to a poster that suggested TE development to OC was extremely rare). In short, TE to OL is a natural progression for many as tall skinny kids in HS and college often keep growing. 

 

"Many OTs and iOL have TE in their history. Skinny or lean tall HS kids put on a bunch of mass and get moved to OT or iOL. Sounds perhaps weird but it's not... If you follow CFB and the draft, you might have seen some / several.... 

 

Notre Dame has one currently. He arrived in HS as a QB/LB, then moved to TE. Gets to ND and ends up moving from TE and starting at LT his freshman year. Not saying it's a norm, but there are a lot of OTs or OLs that have TE somewhere in their history. Alt massed up quicker than Pinter. Also, good possibility that Alt ends up iOL at the next level. 

 

JC Tretter, one of the better Cs, played TE in college, moved to OT later in college, and is now Cleveland's starting Center..

 

Brandon Linder, Jags starting C, started out as TE, then OT, then G, and now starting C.... IIRC, Dallas's OC started out as DE and TE, and ended up on the OL, and now C.

 

And you have Jason Kelce, also one of the better Cs in the league, started out as a RB for Cinci, and played a little LB before moving to the OL. IIRC, he didn't start playing C till his Senior year in college

 

So.... Not exactly rare. Guys grow. TE to OL is natural progression. Doesn't matter if it's TE to OT, TE to OG, TE to OC, or a combo."

11 hours ago, shasta519 said:

 

I think far too much is being made about RAS scores now. But that's a different discussion. 

I agree folks are jumping the shark a bit on RAS. But I will say RAS + other things, is a good thing. And most of our picks have upside in areas in addition to RAS. 

11 hours ago, shasta519 said:

 

Even with his raw athletic ability, Raimann still has issues with footwork. You could see it at the Senior Bowl, where he had very mixed results against legit NFL prospects. And the ERs are only going to get better and faster at the next level.

 

And then you have the fact that he's still learning the position, including the fundamentals. 

The talking heads pretty much all have said his technique is bit mechanical now, but also said it's far better and more advanced than it should be after only 2 seasons. And all pretty much agree that he will improve and is only scratching the surface. NFL.com's profile said exactly the same, but most draft profiles say the same or close. So sure, he's still learning. That's not a bad thing. And now he'll get better coaching compared to MAC level. 

11 hours ago, shasta519 said:

 

The chronic knee tendinitis was just a rumor. But while he might have less wear and tear from not carrying all of that weight long, I would argue it's a risk because his body isn't as used to it. For all we know, the added weight caused the chronic knee tendinitis. But those are just rumors, so I am not too worried about it until something happens.

I've never seen that rumor. Got a link?

11 hours ago, shasta519 said:

 

Ikem is 3+ years younger than Raimann. And was a consensus All-American in the ACC at age 21. Let's see how he tests at age 24. 

Like I said, I really don't care about age. And given the weird history/path (Austria, year off, convert), it bothers me even less. 

11 hours ago, shasta519 said:

 

It's funny you brought up Ikem because the team that drafted him, did so the year AFTER they drafted OT prospect Brady Christensen, who was basically the same age as Raimann and had a nearly identical RAS score. Even went in the same part of the draft.

Christensen wasn't profiled nearly as high IIRC. He also took 2 years off for mission. IIRC, most thought he'd be an OG at the NFL level. 

11 hours ago, shasta519 said:

 

So even if you are not concerned about age, it's definitely relevant in regards to NFL projection (and to NFL scouts and GMs).

 

And that's all we are talking about here...projection. I never said Raimann was a bad NFL prospect, I just don't think he was some great steal of the draft or someone that they can just pencil in as the franchise LT. 

Certainly not penciling him in as a franchise LT. I do consider him a huge steal from a prospect and draft position perspective. 

Like I said, I'll be very happy if we get 8 years out of him even if only a quality backup. 

[cdgacoltsfan]

7 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Sure, but testing isn't minimized, just because he's a convert 3 years ago? right? And he obviously performed at the highest level of his conference (All-MAC), even though it's a smaller conference. And like I mentioned, there are a ton of converted TE-OTs/OLs....

 

The below is geared toward TE coverts that ended up at OC (in reply to a poster that suggested TE development to OC was extremely rare). In short, TE to OL is a natural progression for many as tall skinny kids in HS and college often keep growing. 

 

"Many OTs and iOL have TE in their history. Skinny or lean tall HS kids put on a bunch of mass and get moved to OT or iOL. Sounds perhaps weird but it's not... If you follow CFB and the draft, you might have seen some / several.... 

 

Notre Dame has one currently. He arrived in HS as a QB/LB, then moved to TE. Gets to ND and ends up moving from TE and starting at LT his freshman year. Not saying it's a norm, but there are a lot of OTs or OLs that have TE somewhere in their history. Alt massed up quicker than Pinter. Also, good possibility that Alt ends up iOL at the next level. 

 

JC Tretter, one of the better Cs, played TE in college, moved to OT later in college, and is now Cleveland's starting Center..

 

Brandon Linder, Jags starting C, started out as TE, then OT, then G, and now starting C.... IIRC, Dallas's OC started out as DE and TE, and ended up on the OL, and now C.

 

And you have Jason Kelce, also one of the better Cs in the league, started out as a RB for Cinci, and played a little LB before moving to the OL. IIRC, he didn't start playing C till his Senior year in college

 

So.... Not exactly rare. Guys grow. TE to OL is natural progression. Doesn't matter if it's TE to OT, TE to OG, TE to OC, or a combo."

I agree folks are jumping the shark a bit on RAS. But I will say RAS + other things, is a good thing. And most of our picks have upside in areas in addition to RAS. 

The talking heads pretty much all have said his technique is bit mechanical now, but also said it's far better and more advanced than it should be after only 2 seasons. And all pretty much agree that he will improve and is only scratching the surface. NFL.com's profile said exactly the same, but most draft profiles say the same or close. So sure, he's still learning. That's not a bad thing. And now he'll get better coaching compared to MAC level. 

I've never seen that rumor. Got a link?

Like I said, I really don't care about age. And given the weird history/path (Austria, year off, convert), it bothers me even less. 

Christensen wasn't profiled nearly as high IIRC. He also took 2 years off for mission. IIRC, most thought he'd be an OG at the NFL level. 

Certainly not penciling him in as a franchise LT. I do consider him a huge steal from a prospect and draft position perspective. 

Like I said, I'll be very happy if we get 8 years out of him even if only a quality backup. 

Jason Peters started out as a TE with the Bills. Heading to the hall of Fame.

[shasta519]

16 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Sure, but testing isn't minimized, just because he's a convert 3 years ago? right? And he obviously performed at the highest level of his conference (All-MAC), even though it's a smaller conference. And like I mentioned, there are a ton of converted TE-OTs/OLs....

 

The below is geared toward TE coverts that ended up at OC (in reply to a poster that suggested TE development to OC was extremely rare). In short, TE to OL is a natural progression for many as tall skinny kids in HS and college often keep growing. 

 

"Many OTs and iOL have TE in their history. Skinny or lean tall HS kids put on a bunch of mass and get moved to OT or iOL. Sounds perhaps weird but it's not... If you follow CFB and the draft, you might have seen some / several.... 

 

Notre Dame has one currently. He arrived in HS as a QB/LB, then moved to TE. Gets to ND and ends up moving from TE and starting at LT his freshman year. Not saying it's a norm, but there are a lot of OTs or OLs that have TE somewhere in their history. Alt massed up quicker than Pinter. Also, good possibility that Alt ends up iOL at the next level. 

 

JC Tretter, one of the better Cs, played TE in college, moved to OT later in college, and is now Cleveland's starting Center..

 

Brandon Linder, Jags starting C, started out as TE, then OT, then G, and now starting C.... IIRC, Dallas's OC started out as DE and TE, and ended up on the OL, and now C.

 

And you have Jason Kelce, also one of the better Cs in the league, started out as a RB for Cinci, and played a little LB before moving to the OL. IIRC, he didn't start playing C till his Senior year in college

 

So.... Not exactly rare. Guys grow. TE to OL is natural progression. Doesn't matter if it's TE to OT, TE to OG, TE to OC, or a combo."

I agree folks are jumping the shark a bit on RAS. But I will say RAS + other things, is a good thing. And most of our picks have upside in areas in addition to RAS. 

The talking heads pretty much all have said his technique is bit mechanical now, but also said it's far better and more advanced than it should be after only 2 seasons. And all pretty much agree that he will improve and is only scratching the surface. NFL.com's profile said exactly the same, but most draft profiles say the same or close. So sure, he's still learning. That's not a bad thing. And now he'll get better coaching compared to MAC level. 

I've never seen that rumor. Got a link?

Like I said, I really don't care about age. And given the weird history/path (Austria, year off, convert), it bothers me even less. 

Christensen wasn't profiled nearly as high IIRC. He also took 2 years off for mission. IIRC, most thought he'd be an OG at the NFL level. 

Certainly not penciling him in as a franchise LT. I do consider him a huge steal from a prospect and draft position perspective. 

Like I said, I'll be very happy if we get 8 years out of him even if only a quality backup. 

 

That's really interesting about the TE to C transformation. Those are some good players too. Hopefully, Pinter can join that list.

 

I don't think being a TE convert is a bad thing...just that it usually means less experience and development, which means more time learning in the NFL. That can delay or inhibit a prospect.

 

But we can't just ignore the age difference though and what it might have meant for his performance. He's a developed 24 year-old man playing against guys that are 3-5 years younger than him...in a Group of 5 conference no less. 

 

All I am saying is that there will be a transition to the NFL, when he's going against players who are faster, stronger and more refined players. 

 

Christensen was an All-American at BYU. Regardless of how he profiled, he still ended up being selected within picks of where Raimann was picked. 

 

But Raimann might have ended up there, due to health concerns. The only link I have is this: 

 

https://walterfootball.com/nflhotpress/article/2022-NFL-Draft-Week-Rumors-Monday

 

It came from Charlie Campbell, so I don't know about the validity. I also don't know why they would just make it up. But Raimann did slide 30 picks from where the consensus of mock drafts had him, so it's possible that Campbell got some info he wasn't supposed to have. This draft, more than ever, it seemed like the industry guys had no clue what was going on. They are usually the ones first to report those draft-day trades...but they weren't even prepared to talk about them.

[dw49]

4 hours ago, shasta519 said:

 

That's really interesting about the TE to C transformation. Those are some good players too. Hopefully, Pinter can join that list.

 

I don't think being a TE convert is a bad thing...just that it usually means less experience and development, which means more time learning in the NFL. That can delay or inhibit a prospect.

 

But we can't just ignore the age difference though and what it might have meant for his performance. He's a developed 24 year-old man playing against guys that are 3-5 years younger than him...in a Group of 5 conference no less. 

 

All I am saying is that there will be a transition to the NFL, when he's going against players who are faster, stronger and more refined players. 

 

Christensen was an All-American at BYU. Regardless of how he profiled, he still ended up being selected within picks of where Raimann was picked. 

 

But Raimann might have ended up there, due to health concerns. The only link I have is this: 

 

https://walterfootball.com/nflhotpress/article/2022-NFL-Draft-Week-Rumors-Monday

 

It came from Charlie Campbell, so I don't know about the validity. I also don't know why they would just make it up. But Raimann did slide 30 picks from where the consensus of mock drafts had him, so it's possible that Campbell got some info he wasn't supposed to have. This draft, more than ever, it seemed like the industry guys had no clue what was going on. They are usually the ones first to report those draft-day trades...but they weren't even prepared to talk about them.

 

He says similar regarding  LT Evan Neal . He was selected 7th overall. But yes , there was some chatter about knee issues.

[EastStreet]

13 hours ago, cdgacoltsfan said:

Jason Peters started out as a TE with the Bills. Heading to the hall of Fame.

Yup. Lots of guys. 

[EastStreet]

4 hours ago, shasta519 said:

 

That's really interesting about the TE to C transformation. Those are some good players too. Hopefully, Pinter can join that list.

 

I don't think being a TE convert is a bad thing...just that it usually means less experience and development, which means more time learning in the NFL. That can delay or inhibit a prospect.

 

But we can't just ignore the age difference though and what it might have meant for his performance. He's a developed 24 year-old man playing against guys that are 3-5 years younger than him...in a Group of 5 conference no less. 

 

All I am saying is that there will be a transition to the NFL, when he's going against players who are faster, stronger and more refined players. 

 

Christensen was an All-American at BYU. Regardless of how he profiled, he still ended up being selected within picks of where Raimann was picked. 

 

But Raimann might have ended up there, due to health concerns. The only link I have is this: 

 

https://walterfootball.com/nflhotpress/article/2022-NFL-Draft-Week-Rumors-Monday

 

It came from Charlie Campbell, so I don't know about the validity. I also don't know why they would just make it up. But Raimann did slide 30 picks from where the consensus of mock drafts had him, so it's possible that Campbell got some info he wasn't supposed to have. This draft, more than ever, it seemed like the industry guys had no clue what was going on. They are usually the ones first to report those draft-day trades...but they weren't even prepared to talk about them.

I don't get the whole "he's going against faster and stronger". His measurables are great, and he's likely had the best S&C this off season he's ever had (and will have it going forward). I agree with more refined, but that's not an age thing. That'll come with experience. 

 

There are guys every draft that slide for different reasons. We'll just have to see how this one shakes out. 

[jonjon]

On 4/29/2022 at 10:12 PM, GoColts8818 said:

 I don’t think you could have drawn up a better draft for the Colts so far.

I do:
 

- Draft Moore vs Pierce

- Draft McBride vs Woods

- Take a flyer on Strong with the 7th rounder

 

Not that we did bad (I think), the potential is there and the value or at least potential value with Raimann is great, but I don't agree with our initial moves.

[Superman]

19 hours ago, jonjon said:

I do:
 

- Draft Moore vs Pierce

- Draft McBride vs Woods

- Take a flyer on Strong with the 7th rounder

 

Not that we did bad (I think), the potential is there and the value or at least potential value with Raimann is great, but I don't agree with our initial moves.

 

How do you come away with Moore and McBride? They went back to back, #54 and #55. We drafted Woods at #73.

[jonjon]

I meant either of those choices were better, not that we could do both. We could have drafted McBride and likely still had Pierce at 73, or taken Moore and still had Woods.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

He has the big Q mentality.

 

 

[stitches]

OK, after watching some of his games tape and some of his Senior bowl tape, I will be the one to say it - Raimann is more ready than people give him credit for and he's much more ready than one would expect from a player who has played OL for just 2 years. Furthermore, what this tells me is he must be really coachable. There is no way he should be this advanced after just two years based on regular developmental curve. Lets hope he continues to absorb coaching like he's done so far. 

 

I think he will have the chance to usurp the starting LT spot by the end of the year. 

 

 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

32 minutes ago, stitches said:

OK, after watching some of his games tape and some of his Senior bowl tape, I will be the one to say it - Raimann is more ready than people give him credit for and he's much more ready than one would expect from a player who has played OL for just 2 years. Furthermore, what this tells me is he must be really coachable. There is no way he should be this advanced after just two years based on regular developmental curve. Lets hope he continues to absorb coaching like he's done so far. 

 

I think he will have the chance to usurp the starting LT spot by the end of the year. 

 

 

He looks like he has really quick feet  and good technique. We will see if that can transfer over to better NFL competition.  One of the media guys says whoever loses the LT spot will probably then be in competition with Pinter at RG.

[sb41champs]

One draftnik indicated that he had Raimann going to the Colts a round earlier - and - felt he was the "perfect fit" for the team.

[EastStreet]

On 5/20/2022 at 11:56 AM, TaylorTheStudMuffin said:

He has the big Q mentality.

 

 

 

Pretty sure that's a DB...