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Dwyane Allen out to prove doubters wrong


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On 3/19/2016 at 7:10 AM, ponyboy said:

 

PFF Rankings 2015 (ranking is on 100 scale -- higher number is better)

 

                       Rank    Overall     Receiving   Run Block  Pass Block   Pass Snaps Run Snaps
Coby Fleener 13         74.8          72.6           70.5           76.9              528              220
Dwayne Allen 62        50.2           56.8          33.1            61.0             282              243

 

Fleener has significantly better run blocking score than Allen on about the same number of snaps.  He also has a better pass blocking score with a much higher rate of pass snaps.   Some will completely dismiss PFF rankings but PFF are people who make a living analyzing every player on every play (each play is reviewed independently by 3 different people there verified by another -- which is explained here).

 

The sentiment that Allen is a great blocker and Fleener is terrible seems to be pretty much accepted on this forum.  This data makes me wonder:

 

- Is Allen's perceived blocking ability overrated?

- Is Fleener's perceived blocking ability underrated?

- Has Fleener improved significantly since being labeled as a bad blocker early in his career?

- Is the data unreliable due to small sample size (doesn't appear to be to me)

- Is PFF completely incompetent with their analysis?

 

I think it's hard to completely dismiss the PFF data.  I haven't charted every play like PFF and I didn't re-watch too many of the 2015 games in slow motion (and never keyed on TE blocking when I did) --  so I tend to trust their rankings over my own observations.

 

 

 

The problem with rankings like this when it comes to blocking at the TE position is they don't account for whom they're going against. If Fleener is split wide and blocking a corner, while Allen is assigned to help against JJ Watt, you can't exactly judge the results evenly. 

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7 hours ago, ReMeDy said:

 

That's a superb quote on paper, but in that case, why are the New England Patriots always competing? Give me a 53-man roster of thugs with Superbowl wins over 53 gentlemen any day!

No thanks.

i'd rather lose the right way then win with thugs or cheating.

but i understand ur point. The object is to win.

but where does it end? High school players "taking out" opponents?

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On 3/19/2016 at 10:10 AM, ponyboy said:

 

PFF Rankings 2015 (ranking is on 100 scale -- higher number is better)

 

                       Rank    Overall     Receiving   Run Block  Pass Block   Pass Snaps Run Snaps
Coby Fleener 13         74.8          72.6           70.5           76.9              528              220
Dwayne Allen 62        50.2           56.8          33.1            61.0             282              243

 

Fleener has significantly better run blocking score than Allen on about the same number of snaps.  He also has a better pass blocking score with a much higher rate of pass snaps.   Some will completely dismiss PFF rankings but PFF are people who make a living analyzing every player on every play (each play is reviewed independently by 3 different people there verified by another -- which is explained here).

 

The sentiment that Allen is a great blocker and Fleener is terrible seems to be pretty much accepted on this forum.  This data makes me wonder:

 

- Is Allen's perceived blocking ability overrated?

- Is Fleener's perceived blocking ability underrated?

- Has Fleener improved significantly since being labeled as a bad blocker early in his career?

- Is the data unreliable due to small sample size (doesn't appear to be to me)

- Is PFF completely incompetent with their analysis?

 

I think it's hard to completely dismiss the PFF data.  I haven't charted every play like PFF and I didn't re-watch too many of the 2015 games in slow motion (and never keyed on TE blocking when I did) --  so I tend to trust their rankings over my own observations.

 

 

It's always fun to quote PFF when they support your argument.  I have done it myself.  But the bottom line comes in that the Colts had BOTH players for 4 years and one openly stated he WANTED to be a Colt, the other said nothing.  The Colts immediately went to work trying to and succeeding at, signing Allen and did not even try to sign Fleener (at least I saw no reports that they ever even started negotiations).  So why would the Colts go after an inferior player they had 4 years of info about AND who had been hurt over the other guy?  

 

About PFF, sure, raw blind stats sound great when it supports your info.  But an interesting investigation would be WHO did the Colts have each player TRY to block and which did they not even bother to? Did Fleener block relatively the SAME players in a given game as Allen?  I do not know the answer, but I do know that if you're assigned to block JJ WATT or you're assigned to block a Corner, it's a big difference. So the old saying that stats lie and liars use stats could be applied anytime any of us use third party stats.  If you'd done the study yourself, I could ask you how they did blocking the exact same defensive players (or at least positions if the sample isn't large enough against individual players).   If you knew, for example, that Fleener had no chance to block player A but COULD block player B, and instead felt Allen had a better shot at blocking player A, the numbers would be unfairly skewed.  Again, not saying they were, just a common sense reality of third party stats.  There's little to no context.  Did Fleener block on first down and Allen on third and short?  All these variables could result in the Colts have a far superior idea of the blocking and receiving skills no matter what generic raw stats imply. 

 

Just my opinion... I could be right! (a paraphrase of the brilliant Dennis Miller).  

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To me, it's hard to assess TE production objectively, with a below-average O-line. 

We saw last year how receivers/TE's couldn't get open consistently, due to poor O-line play.

But we may be closer than people think to an improved O-line:

Reitz/Goode may turn out to be solid RTs. And even if all we get is a stud at Center, Reitz/Thorton could be vastly improved at Guard, with a new scheme. (Although we all hope we can land a stud at Guard in the draft).

However the Colts manage to do it, an improved O-line will open up the run game and give guys like Allen, Dorsett, TY and Moncrief a chance to get open and have big years.

 

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On March 19, 2016 at 9:10 AM, ponyboy said:

 

PFF Rankings 2015 (ranking is on 100 scale -- higher number is better)

 

                       Rank    Overall     Receiving   Run Block  Pass Block   Pass Snaps Run Snaps
Coby Fleener 13         74.8          72.6           70.5           76.9              528              220
Dwayne Allen 62        50.2           56.8          33.1            61.0             282              243

 

Fleener has significantly better run blocking score than Allen on about the same number of snaps.  He also has a better pass blocking score with a much higher rate of pass snaps.   Some will completely dismiss PFF rankings but PFF are people who make a living analyzing every player on every play (each play is reviewed independently by 3 different people there verified by another -- which is explained here).

 

The sentiment that Allen is a great blocker and Fleener is terrible seems to be pretty much accepted on this forum.  This data makes me wonder:

 

- Is Allen's perceived blocking ability overrated?

- Is Fleener's perceived blocking ability underrated?

- Has Fleener improved significantly since being labeled as a bad blocker early in his career?

- Is the data unreliable due to small sample size (doesn't appear to be to me)

- Is PFF completely incompetent with their analysis?

 

I think it's hard to completely dismiss the PFF data.  I haven't charted every play like PFF and I didn't re-watch too many of the 2015 games in slow motion (and never keyed on TE blocking when I did) --  so I tend to trust their rankings over my own observations.

 

 

All that work to validate Fleener's blocking superiority PB & where's Coby playing next season? New Orleans. Seems like an exercise in futility to me. 

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On 3/15/2016 at 5:50 PM, LockeDown said:

. Seriously? There's no way Fleener was a better blocker than Allen. That inference I will never subscribe to in a million years. I like you CD, but we will never see eye to eye on that statement. Give Chud a chance to figure out the best formations to utilize Allen in first. He'll be just fine. It's not like we picked up overrated WR Dwayne Bowe & tried to convert him into a barely serviceable weapon on offense or something. 

I didn't infer that Fleener is a better blocker than Allen.  I stated there was not a significant difference in their blocking last year.  And, if you have a chance rewatch the games, Fleener was just as effective blocking his guy as Allen was blocking his guy.

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28 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

I didn't infer that Fleener is a better blocker than Allen.  I stated there was not a significant difference in their blocking last year.  And, if you have a chance rewatch the games, Fleener was just as effective blocking his guy as Allen was blocking his guy.

 

Coffeedrinker, that's weird.  I never made that remark but it has my name attached to it.. I believe that was Southwest that said that.

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On 3/21/2016 at 5:39 PM, LockeDown said:

 

Coffeedrinker, that's weird.  I never made that remark but it has my name attached to it.. I believe that was Southwest that said that.

That is weird.  The quote feature on the new platform is pretty hit and miss.  Sorry about that.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 3/15/2016 at 3:14 PM, 21isSuperman said:

The only thing he needs to prove is that he can stay healthy.  We already know he's a capable receiver and can block.  We know he can play football.  It's just a matter of whether or not he can stay on the field

Agreed.

 

heres to hoping he has a huge year!

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A couple articles(I think one was an ESPN article) have Erik Swoope in line for the 3rd tight end spot. Same speed, Same size. With the Basketball background in interested to see how many targets they give him in the preseason. He could be that jump ball outmuscle you type of tight end we never got out of Fleener.

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44 minutes ago, krunk said:

A couple articles(I think one was an ESPN article) have Erik Swoope in line for the 3rd tight end spot. Same speed, Same size. With the Basketball background in interested to see how many targets they give him in the preseason. He could be that jump ball outmuscle you type of tight end we never got out of Fleener.

 

Hopefully we have a gem in Swoop. I'm interested to see how he looks in camp and preseason too.

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