Can we stop blaming Whalen now?

[RockThatBlue]

Dont you know, nobody is going to listen to this anyways.

Yeah, you can certainly tell very few people on this board listened to it. Pat basically says in so many words that blaming Whalen is complete nonsense. Yet people are still blaming him. I feel sorry for Whalen, he will be known for this play for the rest of his life, when it wasn't even really his fault.

[#12.]

The play was a complete screwup in multiple ways, and when that is the case, the blame falls on coaching. What Chuck said following the game was correct. He wasn't protecting anyone. It was his fault.

[csmopar]

Yeah, you can certainly tell very few people on this board listened to it. Pat basically says in so many words that blaming Whalen is complete nonsense. Yet people are still blaming him. I feel sorry for Whalen, he will be known for this play for the rest of his life, when it wasn't even really his fault.

yep. exactly.  And you know its really screwed up when according to sources, Bob Kravtiz is at the colts complex and personally walked up and apologized for shredding Whalen in his monday article....................

[OffensivelyPC]

Ya know, I didn't have a problem trotting the formation out and seeing if we could get a favorable alignment.  You're playing the Pats, you should be aggressive.  But how do you prevent mishaps like this?  You don't have the cues be either "Snap the ball" or "Don't snap the ball."  It's loud and the last thing you want is to have one tiny word be the difference between an expected result and catastrophe.  I don't know who all was in on the meeting to make that decision, but they all need to be slapped up side the head.

[SurfinKal]

In every game there are X number of plays used to build a lead. No one play has ever lost any game ever and the reason is if the team had accumulated more points the "play that lost the game" would be just another play. "That play cost them the game" is nonsense and football is probably the best example of that cry baby excuse. What would the rhetoric be if the Colts had been up by 14 when the fake punt happened? How many three and outs did the Colts have? Any dropped passes? Any lost yards plays? Any throw the ball out of bounds plays? Any rush attempts for a loss or no gain? The game is four quarters, not one play.

I do agree with your point to an extent, but there is one thing you have left out and i dont think you did it intentionally.

 

MOMENTUM

 

Coaches talk about, players talk about it, media talk about it, analysis talk about it and fans talk about. Why? Becuase it is real.

 

You can say that we lost all momentum going forward after that stupid play.

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

The play was a complete screwup in multiple ways, and when that is the case, the blame falls on coaching. What Chuck said following the game was correct. He wasn't protecting anyone. It was his fault.

This is correct!! The call the set up and in my mind the field position in which the Colts lineup for the play was HORRIBLE! Even if someone was inclined to blame Whalen, We all know he shouldn't have hiked the ball, but IMO he more than made up up for it with some very nice catches late in the ball game!

[jvan1973]

why call a time out when whalen was told by Anderson to not snap the ball? They didn't think he would snap the ball

Probably because the play was doomed as soon as the entire line wasn't on the LOS

[ColtStronger]

So, to make you point you have to use an example outside of football?  You example is not relevant because the situations are not even remotely similar.

 

On the point, I agree, don't pull the trigger is you don't mean to fire the gun but again it's the same as above, the two situations are so far apart you cannot use one to effectively make a point about the other.

It was an analogy, and a bad one at that!  I get it.  The point was about common sense though.  I just think it's stupid, no matter what the case to do something that is blatantly obvious you shouldn't do, regardless of what you're told. 

[ColtStronger]

BECAUSE THE THOUGHT THE GUY BEHIND HIM CAUGHT TOO MANY MEN ON THE FIELD AND HE WAS SNAPPING IT TO GET THE PENALTY.

 

You don't get the too many men on the field penalty unless you snap the ball with more then 11 guys in the field of play.  And if there are too many men on the field it doesn't matter what happens after you snap it, just that you've snapped it.

 

The guy behind him is suppose to check that and if he spots it, give the pre-determined signal (going under center) to snap the ball.

 

The guy gave him the pre-determined signal and he snapped the ball.

I've heard that and it's a good explanation, and I've heard he couldn't see the whole field also.  However, I just find it odd that the snap took forever nobody subbed out.  Either way, it was a communication error.  Everybody shares potential blame for their part, IMO.

[CanuckColt]

I still think they should let Whalen can play the slot receiver position...good hands, gets open, moves the chains.

...but then, they have an embarrassing amount invested in Ancient Andre who has trouble separating himself from a parked car.

[bababooey]

Just heard Pat got an earful for his explanation of the punt, despite the team touting it on the front page of the website

[indyspeed13]

Huh? Pagano was screaming on the sidelines "why did you snap the ball". That ball was NEVER meant to be snapped in that circumstance...

yea that's easy to see AFTER he snapped it he should of let the best P in the league do his thing end of story

[Superman]

Yes he should! Especially when he is standing right next to them. If the penalties would off-set, then why call the play? You cannot catch someone with too many men on the field when your players arent lined up correctly to get the call.

 

Why is that so hard to understand?

 

There's no reason for the coach to call a timeout when he expects the players to take the delay of game penalty. Doesn't matter how they were lined up.

 

My friend, coaches don't get fired for this kind of stuff. People have been painting this picture of Irsay as an impatient, impetuous owner, and he's not any of that. Since he took full control 18 years ago, he's hired two GMs and four head coaches (and one of those coaches retired). He's not going to fire the head coach over an ill-conceived fourth down fake play. He's not Al Davis.

[Superman]

Probably because the play was doomed as soon as the entire line wasn't on the LOS

 

If you don't think he's going to snap the ball, then whether they're lined up right or not, you're looking at a five yard penalty, which you're already resigned to. No need to waste a timeout.

 

If Pagano had even the tiniest inkling that Whalen was going to snap the ball, he would have called timeout. It's a major oversight to have the trigger man unprepared, but no one expected the ball to be snapped at that point. The alignment is another issue entirely.

[jvan1973]

If you don't think he's going to snap the ball, then whether they're lined up right or not, you're looking at a five yard penalty, which you're already resigned to. No need to waste a timeout.

If Pagano had even the tiniest inkling that Whalen was going to snap the ball, he would have called timeout. It's a major oversight to have the trigger man unprepared, but no one expected the ball to be snapped at that point. The alignment is another issue entirely.

With geathers out they should have just scrapped the play entirely. Hindsight is always 20/20, but if griff had only been involved in the initial version of the play and didn't know about the new wrinkle then they should have just punted. It is what it is. It was only one of many reasons the Colts lost. Learn from your mistakes and move on. It's only week 6. Lots of football left

[Superman]

Common sense says that the guy got under center and gave him the pre-determined signal to snap the ball.  Common sense says that signal must only have come because the guy saw too many men on the field.

 

Common sense also says that no one gives the play away in front of the opposition.  

 

It would be like running on to the field and yelling "Run the statue of liberty!!!" so that everyone including the opposing team could hear it.  Think they will fall for that fake pass??

 

Nope. I just said, it's a major oversight to have the trigger man (Whalen) unprepared.

 

But Whalen shouldn't have snapped the ball. We're at 1 second on the clock. They realigned over ten seconds ago. If there was going to be 12 men on the field, that would have happened a long time ago. My bird's eye perspective with the benefit of hindsight is that situational awareness tells Whalen that he shouldn't snap the ball.

[Superman]

With geathers out they should have just scrapped the play entirely. Hindsight is always 20/20, but if griff had only been involved in the initial version of the play and didn't know about the new wrinkle then they should have just punted. It is what it is. It was only one of many reasons the Colts lost. Learn from your mistakes and move on. It's only week 6. Lots of football left

 

Agreed. I really wonder if they realized that Whalen wasn't involved in the new wrinkle, or if that only came to light when they started asking him why he didn't know not to snap the ball.

[SurfinKal]

There's no reason for the coach to call a timeout when he expects the players to take the delay of game penalty. Doesn't matter how they were lined up.

 

My friend, coaches don't get fired for this kind of stuff. People have been painting this picture of Irsay as an impatient, impetuous owner, and he's not any of that. Since he took full control 18 years ago, he's hired two GMs and four head coaches (and one of those coaches retired). He's not going to fire the head coach over an ill-conceived fourth down fake play. He's not Al Davis.

So you are saying they called a play to intentionally take a five yard penalty?

[Superman]

So you are saying they called a play to intentionally take a five yard penalty?

 

No.

[SurfinKal]

No.

You said; "There's no reason for the coach to call a timeout when he expects the players to take the delay of game penalty. Doesn't matter how they were lined up."

 

If no one was supposed to hike the ball and it doesnt matter how the players are lined up, then the only rational explenation is that they called a play to intentionally take a five yard penalty. Right? If not, then please explain it to me.

[Superman]

You said; "There's no reason for the coach to call a timeout when he expects the players to take the delay of game penalty. Doesn't matter how they were lined up."

 

If no one was supposed to hike the ball and it doesnt matter how the players are lined up, then the only rational explenation is that they called a play to intentionally take a five yard penalty. Right? If not, then please explain it to me.

 

Once there was no potential to catch the Pats with 12 men on the field, the plan was to try to draw them offsides. If neither of those works, take the delay of game and punt. 

[SurfinKal]

Once there was no potential to catch the Pats with 12 men on the field, the plan was to try to draw them offsides. If neither of those works, take the delay of game and punt. 

To my point,  you cannot get either of those calls because you are not lined up properly. You end up with off setting penalties becuase you are not lined up where you need to be (right in front of the head coach). Therfore Coach Pagano called a play that had no chance of being successful and cost us the game.

[Superman]

To my point,  you cannot get either of those calls because you are not lined up properly. You end up with off setting penalties becuase you are not lined up where you need to be (right in front of the head coach). Therfore Coach Pagano called a play that had no chance of being successful and cost us the game.

 

You absolutely can get an encroachment (I said offsides, but I meant encroachment) regardless of how you're lined up.

 

The 12 men would have been offsetting, but that was off the table when they didn't try to sub their defense back in. Very early in the process, as soon as the Pats didn't sub, the play is basically aborted. You're not going to snap the ball. 

 

Also, that play didn't cost us the game.

[Hoosiernsavga]

You can make an excuse for Whalen all you want but the truth is the truth, don't snap the ball!

Whalen shouldn't have snapped the ball no doubt. But the blame is all on the coaches especially Pagano. He took the blame rightfully so. He said they were lined up wrong and used Whalen instead of an injured Geathers who had been practicing the play. He had plenty of time to call a TO. But instead looked dumb founded! The defense was relaxed just waiting for a TO. A few of the Pats players were screaming Illegal formation! You can believe that they were as shocked the ball was snapped as much as anyone else.

[RockThatBlue]

You absolutely can get an encroachment (I said offsides, but I meant encroachment) regardless of how you're lined up.

The 12 men would have been offsetting, but that was off the table when they didn't try to sub their defense back in. Very early in the process, as soon as the Pats didn't sub, the play is basically aborted. You're not going to snap the ball.

Also, that play didn't cost us the game.

I think it can be said it cost us the game. We lost by 7 points, the 7 points we gave up after the failed fake punt. Our D was playing decent in the 3rd quarter and we gave them a short field. We still may have gave up a TD if we actually punted, but we also might have stopped them too. Its hard to say what would have happened but the TD we gave up after the failed fake punt was a huge blow. The Whalen TD late in the game would have been for the lead.

[jet1968]

Chuck said it was his fault.

[SurfinKal]

You absolutely can get an encroachment (I said offsides, but I meant encroachment) regardless of how you're lined up.

 

The 12 men would have been offsetting, but that was off the table when they didn't try to sub their defense back in. Very early in the process, as soon as the Pats didn't sub, the play is basically aborted. You're not going to snap the ball. 

 

Also, that play didn't cost us the game.

Encroachment and illegal formation are both pre-snap, five yard penalties that would off set.

[coltsfanatic24]

He still shouldn't have snapped the ball.

[Superman]

Encroachment and illegal formation are both pre-snap, five yard penalties that would off set.

 

Nope. If the defense jumps and touches an offensive player or has a clear path to the QB, it's a defensive penalty. Doesn't matter how the offense is lined up, as an illegal formation isn't penalized until/unless the ball is snapped. So if the Pats had jumped and committed encroachment, our alignment wouldn't have mattered.

[Superman]

I think it can be said it cost us the game. We lost by 7 points, the 7 points we gave up after the failed fake punt. Our D was playing decent in the 3rd quarter and we gave them a short field. We still may have gave up a TD if we actually punted, but we also might have stopped them too. Its hard to say what would have happened but the TD we gave up after the failed fake punt was a huge blow. The Whalen TD late in the game would have been for the lead.

 

It happened late in the third quarter. The Pats scored early in the fourth quarter. We had three straight failed possessions after that, including holding them to no points on three straight possessions. There was plenty of game left, and we still had plenty of chances to win it.

[SurfinKal]

Nope. If the defense jumps and touches an offensive player or has a clear path to the QB, it's a defensive penalty. Doesn't matter how the offense is lined up, as an illegal formation isn't penalized until/unless the ball is snapped. So if the Pats had jumped and committed encroachment, our alignment wouldn't have mattered.

They didnt encroach and the ball was hiked becuase Pagano called the play. Pagano will still be fired.

[SurfinKal]

It happened late in the third quarter. The Pats scored early in the fourth quarter. We had three straight failed possessions after that, including holding them to no points on three straight possessions. There was plenty of game left, and we still had plenty of chances to win it.

[jvan1973]

They didnt encroach and the ball was hiked becuase Pagano called the play. Pagano will still be fired.

That play isn't going to get him fired.

[Superman]

They didnt encroach and the ball was hiked becuase Pagano called the play. Pagano will still be fired.

 

Okay guy.

[SurfinKal]

Okay guy.

I just want to say I mean nothing personal with this little back and forth and hope its not taken as such, just a touchy subject that involves a team we both care deeply about.

 

GO COLTS!

[SurfinKal]

That play isn't going to get him fired.

But it sure sealed his fate.

[jvan1973]

But it sure sealed his fate.

Doubt it has any impact whatsoever

[Superman]

I just want to say I mean nothing personal with this little back and forth and hope its not taken as such, just a touchy subject that involves a team we both care deeply about.

 

GO COLTS!

 

Nothing personal on my end either, I just don't feel like chasing you from one lily pad to the next. You're ignoring the fact that there were multiple elements to the play. In the staff's mind, best case scenario was a Pats penalty, worst case scenario was a delay of game. Where they messed up was putting Whalen on the ball when he wasn't up to speed. I'm fine with the rest of it.

[NewColtsFan]

That play isn't going to get him fired.

 

Well....     As a Pagano fan,  I'll say this...     you may, or may not be right,  but it certainly didn't help his cause.

[jvan1973]

Well.... As a Pagano fan, I'll say this... you may, or may not be right, but it certainly didn't help his cause.

No loss helps any coaches job.