Sports Illustrated Asks: Why isn't Grigson's Job also on the Line?

[BOTT]

I think it's silly that both of them are involved in any kind of job security speculation after four years on the job.  Talk about being a victim of your own success.  It's not as if they inherited the Colts of 2006.

Presidents can lose their job after 4 years, but not a football coach?

[2006Coltsbestever]

Not only did it put us ahead of schedule, it cost us at least one more top 15 draft pick. I'm fine with that, just saying, usually a rebuild takes a couple years and you get some draft stock out of it. Of course, if we picked #15 in 2013, Grigson probably takes Jarvis Jones instead of Bjoern Werner, and it's the same thing anyways...

Yeah, Grigson hasn't really drafted well regarding building the Defense and losing a first round pick in 2014 because of the Richardson trade didn't help matters. Offensively he has drafted well with the exception of the Line. Luck, TY, Fleener, and Allen are all great picks.

[theanarchist]

It's a waste of time to complain about how we don't have a "monster defense" in week 2. We don't know what we have right now. I think the defense could have a good year. I was impressed with the D-line on Sunday, the pass-rush will better this year than last(almost a certainty), secondary should be fine(barring major injuries). Why are so many of you panicking this early on?

Im not panicking. Merely pointing out that as of right now we don't have certain qualities on defense that make a defense great. Do I think that our pass rush will become great this year? I have my doubts. Do I think we have a playmaking safety on the roster? I don't see it but hopefully I'm wrong. I think right now the team is in a bit of bind defensively. Mathis will come back and hopefully be the old Mathis, if that happens then yes our pass rush becomes better. But, facts are facts, Mathis is 34 almost 35 and he's coming off of an achilles injury. Logic says that will slow him down some. I'd love to see him come back and have a 12-15 sack season but I'm skeptical. Im not panicking, complaining? probably a little

[ColtsBTM12]

Im not panicking. Merely pointing out that as of right now we don't have certain qualities on defense that make a defense great. Do I think that our pass rush will become great this year? I have my doubts. Do I think we have a playmaking safety on the roster? I don't see it but hopefully I'm wrong. I think right now the team is in a bit of bind defensively. Mathis will come back and hopefully be the old Mathis, if that happens then yes our pass rush becomes better. But, facts are facts, Mathis is 34 almost 35 and he's coming off of an achilles injury. Logic says that will slow him down some. I'd love to see him come back and have a 12-15 sack season but I'm skeptical. Im not panicking, complaining? probably a little

From a personnel standpoint there is more depth at OLB, which is why pass rush will be better this year than last. Cole is a proven player, Mathis is back(if he's even half the player he was two years ago that'll be a huge boost), plus the continued development of Newsome. Not to mention Walden looks great this year and maybe just maybe we get something out of Werner. Anderson and Langford look really good, the D-line looks improved. Vontae is still shutting people down. Just think, we made the AFCCG last year despite all the flaws on defense. Sure, maybe we don't have a great defense this year but if it is at least improved (which to me, it looks that way) then maybe it's enough to put us over the top to get to a SB.

[Gavin]

Im not panicking. Merely pointing out that as of right now we don't have certain qualities on defense that make a defense great. Do I think that our pass rush will become great this year? I have my doubts. Do I think we have a playmaking safety on the roster? I don't see it but hopefully I'm wrong. I think right now the team is in a bit of bind defensively. Mathis will come back and hopefully be the old Mathis, if that happens then yes our pass rush becomes better. But, facts are facts, Mathis is 34 almost 35 and he's coming off of an achilles injury. Logic says that will slow him down some. I'd love to see him come back and have a 12-15 sack season but I'm skeptical. Im not panicking, complaining? probably a little

Mike Adams made plenty of plays last year at Safety that included 5 picks, 11 passes defensed and 2 ff's (Though yes I know he is 34 years old now)

[theanarchist]

From a personnel standpoint there is more depth at OLB, which is why pass rush will be better this year than last. Cole is a proven player, Mathis is back(if he's even half the player he was two years ago that'll be a huge boost), plus the continued development of Newsome. Not to mention Walden looks great this year and maybe just maybe we get something out of Werner. Anderson and Langford look really good, the D-line looks improved. Vontae is still shutting people down. Just think, we made the AFCCG last year despite all the flaws on defense. Sure, maybe we don't have a great defense this year but if it is at least improved (which to me, it looks that way) then maybe it's enough to put us over the top to get to a SB.

Cole has had a nice career but he's been very average since 2011. His last 3 seasons he's had 3, 8 and 6.5 sacks. That's not exactly setting the world on fire. As for Newsome, we've seen very little of him to know exactly what he's going to turn out to be. There is some promise there. The OLB, although it has plenty of bodies, I think is a sizeable question mark given the age of Cole and Mathis and the limited sample we've seen from Newsome. JMO

[theanarchist]

Mike Adams made plenty of plays last year at Safety that included 5 picks, 11 passes defensed and 2 ff's (Though yes I know he is 34 years old now)

Yes, Adams had a good year last year. Probably his best as a pro. As you point out, he's 34. The safety position has been a big question mark since the day Grigson got here. Bethea was a good safety but opposite him there was no one. Grigson spent a lot of money on Landry, like many other free agents, and he didnt pan out. I'm not trying to bust balls and some of Grigson's failures in FA were unforseeable such as the situations with Art Jones and Don Thomas. Unlike him making Gosder Cherilus the highest paid RT in football knowing full well he had bad knees. Worked OK for one season but a guy like Gosder you can probably safely say is going to present problems due to past history with injuries.  But, the satety position I think is an area he needs to strengthen and its overdue. Again, I don't think that Grigson is doing a terrible job but he shouldn't be beyond reproach either.

 

I wasn't one of the ones complaining about the Dorsett pick. However, the #1 safety was still on the board when he was selected. Not complaining, just something to think about and remember in a year or two.

[ColtsBTM12]

Cole has had a nice career but he's been very average since 2011. His last 3 seasons he's had 3, 8 and 6.5 sacks. That's not exactly setting the world on fire. As for Newsome, we've seen very little of him to know exactly what he's going to turn out to be. There is some promise there. The OLB, although it has plenty of bodies, I think is a sizeable question mark given the age of Cole and Mathis and the limited sample we've seen from Newsome. JMO

It's still improvement from what we had last year when Werner was a starter.

[theanarchist]

It's still better than what we had last year when Werner was a starter.

And who selected Werner? . I won't dispute that with you. Trent Cole should be solid given his experience. Will he make our pass rush better? Again, I'm not sold on that.

[ColtsBTM12]

And who selected Werner? . I won't dispute that with you. Trent Cole should be solid given his experience. Will he make our pass rush better? Again, I'm not sold on that.

So your not sold that Cole, Mathis, AND Newsome will be improvement over JUST Werner and Newsome? Again, I'm not saying that Cole will be Justin Houston or that we can count on Mathis being the same player from two years ago, I'm just saying that the pass rush will be IMPROVED from what it was last year because there is more proven depth on the roster. 

[theanarchist]

So your not sold that Cole, Mathis, AND Newsome will be improvement over JUST Werner and Newsome? Again, I'm not saying that Cole will be Justin Houston or that we can count on Mathis being the same player from two years ago, I'm just saying that the pass rush will be IMPROVED from what it was last year because there is more proven depth on the roster. 

I was referring to Trent Cole making our pass rush better. No not sold on that. If we get Mathis back and he's even 90% of what he was then yes our pass rush should be better. Newsome, I just dont know what he'll provide this year.

[ColtsBTM12]

I was referring to Trent Cole making our pass rush better. No not sold on that. If we get Mathis back and he's even 90% of what he was then yes our pass rush should be better. Newsome, I just dont know what he'll provide this year.

Trent Cole will make the pass rush better. He's an upgrade over Werner for sure. Newsome led the team in sacks last year as a 5th round rookie despite only playing 37% of the defensive snaps. He'll get more playing time this year. And Mathis coming back is a plus no matter how much of his old self he still is.

[theanarchist]

Trent Cole will make the pass rush better. He's an upgrade over Werner for sure. Newsome led the team in sacks last year as a 5th round rookie despite only playing 37% of the defensive snaps. He'll get more playing time this year. And Mathis coming back is a plus no matter how much of his old self he still is.

Werner had 4 sacks last year. The team as a whole had 41. Will Trent Cole have more than 4? Maybe but his last 3 years he's averaged 5. My original point is that the OLB positon as a whole for the future is not in what I would consider to be great shape. Its old and it has a 2nd year player with some promise and a dud of a first round pick who may be on his way off the team if he doesnt develop any this year. Do you think Mathis is going to have 15 sacks this year and next? His days of being an elite pass rusher are numbered and Trent Cole has never been an elite pass rusher. This is a position that needs to be addressed.

[ColtsBTM12]

Werner had 4 sacks last year. The team as a whole had 41. Will Trent Cole have more than 4? Maybe but his last 3 years he's averaged 5. My original point is that the OLB positon as a whole for the future is not in what I would consider to be great shape. Its old and it has a 2nd year player with some promise and a dud of a first round pick who may be on his way off the team if he doesnt develop any this year. Do you think Mathis is going to have 15 sacks this year and next? His days of being an elite pass rusher are numbered and Trent Cole has never been an elite pass rusher. This is a position that needs to be addressed.

MY original point is that the position will be better this year than it was last year, and it clearly will.

[BOTT]

Trent Cole will make the pass rush better. He's an upgrade over Werner for sure. Newsome led the team in sacks last year as a 5th round rookie despite only playing 37% of the defensive snaps. He'll get more playing time this year. And Mathis coming back is a plus no matter how much of his old self he still is.

Go back and look at Newsome's sacks. Any stiff could have gotten most of them. He has potential, but last yr was misleading.

[ColtsBTM12]

Go back and look at Newsome's sacks. Any stiff could have gotten most of them. He has potential, but last yr was misleading.

So? He had 6.5 and there were some that he almost got but barely missed. He could have easily had a few more. And he did it even though he only played 37% of the defensive snaps. Bottom line: He's a promising young player with a lot of talent.

[BOTT]

So? He had 6.5 and there were some that he almost got but barely missed. He could have easily had a few more. And he did it even though he only played 37% of the defensive snaps. Bottom line: He's a promising young player with a lot of talent.

It matters if you were blocked or not. But if you want to ignore that, go ahead.

[ColtsBTM12]

It matters if you were blocked or not. But if you want to ignore that, go ahead.

If you want to ignore the fact that he was consistently putting pressure on the QB last year while on the field, then go ahead.

[BOTT]

If you want to ignore the fact that he was consistently putting pressure on the QB last year while on the field, then go ahead.

Yet the Colts, who had to blitz to create any kind of pressure, only played him 37% of the snaps. Maybe he was getting consistent pressure, but I sure don't remember it.....doesn't seem the coaches saw it either.

[Gavin]

Yet the Colts, who had to blitz to create any kind of pressure, only played him 37% of the snaps. Maybe he was getting consistent pressure, but I sure don't remember it.....doesn't seem the coaches saw it either.

Newsome's reason for not seeing the field much is because he is a liability against the run

[ColtsBTM12]

Yet the Colts, who had to blitz to create any kind of pressure, only played him 37% of the snaps. Maybe he was getting consistent pressure, but I sure don't remember it.....doesn't seem the coaches saw it either.

When he was on the field, he got consistent pressure. If you want to ignore that, then go ahead. He could have easily had eight or nine sacks instead of 6.5.

[ztboiler]

Grigson's job is by definition always on the line....but I believe it is less on the line right now than Pagano's because all, including Irsay, media and NFL experts can see that Grigson is building with sound, decisive principles.  They can also see that he not only talks with an edge of performance expectation but he takes tough, decisive action on performance principles - fearlessly.  He is doing smart things with contracts, churning the roster very productively to maximize every roster spot, and drafting quite well - despite the 1st round pick squallor.

 

2012 is a draft GM's build careers on even without Luck

2013 yielded a starting center and a guard who has played well at times and who will likely be the starter again by mid-season.

2014 yielded a starting RT and Moncrief

2015 Let's see...but who doesn't like it so far?  Even if you don't like Dorsett....but as vital as Hilton is, how can it be bad to have another one like him?

 

He has made hard personnel decision on popular players like Wayne and Freeney - that were clearly the right decisions for the good of the team.

 

Objectively, in 2014, year 3 of the rebuild, it started to look like there were warning signs about coaching preparation and/or adjustments - mainly vs. the Patriots.  People can understand that you have to do the right things to build roster quality over time, but you have to do the right things as a coach right now....so ya, the pressure should probably be a little bit greater on Pagano right now in my opinion.  

 

Personally, I like everything about Grigson.  I think he is smart enough, decisive enough, and tough enough to be the architect of the team that wins multiple super bowls.  

 

I also love everything about Pagano, especially the character he builds in men - yet I'm unconvinced that this collective staff can strategically win a superbowl, let alone multiples.

[BOTT]

When he was on the field, he got consistent pressure. If you want to ignore that, then go ahead. He could have easily had eight or nine sacks instead of 6.5.

Yeah, you already said that. That what people were saying about Werner too.....

[BOTT]

Newsome's reason for not seeing the field much is because he is a liability against the run

So are a lot of guys on defense lol

[SOMDColtsfan]

What I don't understand is how this team has been fundamentally built. Its Peyton Manning 2.0 with offensive talent at skilled positions. Maybe going 11-5 every year is almost a curse as having to draft in the late 20`s each year, hindering the talent pool? Too good too fast to in return be great?  Irsay said from the very beginning of this rebuild before Grigson, Pagano were hired, before Luck was drafted this team would be a "power running, stingy defense" type team. And its dejavu` Peyton 2.0 all over again? Yes its won a lot of regular season ball games but the same issues have arisen. I believe this years draft class will in time turn out to be a very good one, but still yet to be decided. What I don't understand is in 2014 the starting center had yet to be penciled in until AQ Shpley was picked up a week before the season opener, and that was a glaring need during the offseason, Then fast forward to this offseason and it was a DT. Once again waited til one week before season opener and looked for a DT? That part I don't get but hopefully Grigson turns out to be a genius and we all eat crow to my delight 

[ColtsBTM12]

Yeah, you already said that. That what people were saying about Werner too.....

Werner got 4.0 sacks as a starter. Newsome got 6.5 as a backup. Enough said.

[Defjamz26]

Werner had 4 sacks last year. The team as a whole had 41. Will Trent Cole have more than 4? Maybe but his last 3 years he's averaged 5. My original point is that the OLB positon as a whole for the future is not in what I would consider to be great shape. Its old and it has a 2nd year player with some promise and a dud of a first round pick who may be on his way off the team if he doesnt develop any this year. Do you think Mathis is going to have 15 sacks this year and next? His days of being an elite pass rusher are numbered and Trent Cole has never been an elite pass rusher. This is a position that needs to be addressed.

Don't be surprised to see an Edge Rusher drafted early next year. Werner will probably be gone, Walden's contract is up, and Mathis and Cole are gone. And Newsome hasn't shown anything.

I think the Cole signing was just a safety precaution signing because of Mathis' injury. I don't think the pass rush will be much improved either. There just isn't talent there unless Mathis comes back 100 which I doubt.

[DalTXColtsFan]

Like when Elway went out and signed Ware, Talib, and Ward and swung for the fences.

 

And couldn't beat the Colts.

[theanarchist]

And couldn't beat the Colts.

To be fair, Manning was clearly hurt in the playoffs. Ware, Talib and Ward were all good pickups for the Broncs

[BOTT]

Werner got 4.0 sacks as a starter. Newsome got 6.5 as a backup. Enough said.

When was Werner ever a starter?

[jabbanobadda]

I'm tired of this and wish it would go away.

I'm not defending Grigson, none of us know what's really going on there.

But I have to wonder - with the best QB in the game, and only one SB appearance, why doesn't Ted Thompson get scrutinized as much as Grigs?

I've also wondered that.  And, when talking about Aaron Rodgers, why is it "Oh he's the best QB in the game" or "there's Aaron Rodgers...and then everyone else"?  Shouldn't it be "he's the best QB in the regular season" or "chokes in the platoffs" or is that only reserved for Colts QBs?

[jabbanobadda]

In 10 years. 2 HoF QBs. A couple losing seasons in there too.

I know it's not apples to ... But my point is that just because you have one of the best QBs in the league doesn't mean you should expect to be in the SB every year. And some years in that GMs reign, the Pack weren't even contenders.

Again, I'm not defending Grigs, and I've always said we should invest in the Oline even if it means over drafting or overpaying, even to the detriment of keeping some skill players. But how can anyone argue with his success?

I know there have been different GMs for the Packers during this time but the Packers have had close to 30 yrs of HOF caliber QBing with only 2 (TWO) Superbowl wins to show for it.  

[jabbanobadda]

Thompson's all pro QB pick wasn't an obvious pick at the time.

 

Thompson's team has a running game

 

Thompson's team has an offensive line.  Aaron Rodger's isn't best friends with the turf.  

 

Thompson drafts well and doesn't need to sign many free agents.

 

Thompson's team dominates a much tougher division. 

 

Thompson's team can win games against good teams without asking Rodgers to throw the ball 40 times. 

Didn't Aaron Rodgers lead the league for most sacks a couple years ago?

[jabbanobadda]

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25305243/agents-take-has-the-potential-for-a-colts-dynasty-been-squandered

 

Here is another article that basically points out things that have been eluded to by myself and others. It's a good read and makes very valid points. I'm not saying Grigson needs to be canned but he's as culpable as Pagano is in my opinion.

Yep...the Colts chances to win the SB have been squandered alright.  You know, because teams are only allowed to win when their QB is on their rookie contract.  

 

Note:  Take a look at that chart comparing the Colts to the "elite" teams.  Notice anything?  You guessed it...the Colts beat every team on the list with the exception of the Cheaters.

[GoColts8818]

I really don't understand why people who call themselves Colts fans are trying so hard to see this team as awful. I am not saying people need to be blind homers but if you read a lot of stuff that has been posted over the last few months you would think we've been stuck in 2011 since 2011 and not coming off an AFCCG appearance.

[2006Coltsbestever]

I really don't understand why people who call themselves Colts fans are trying so hard to see this team as awful. I am not saying people need to be blind homers but if you read a lot of stuff that has been posted over the last few months you would think we've been stuck in 2011 since 2011 and not coming off an AFCCG appearance.

I still have us going 11-5 that is how much faith I have in Andrew. The Defense in big Playoff games scares me though.

[ColtsBTM12]

When was Werner ever a starter?

When Robert Mathis missed all of last season. 

[Gavin]

When Robert Mathis missed all of last season. 

We are still talking about 1 season worth of starts, Its completely unrealistic to expect the majority of players to come in and play at a Pro Bowl level their first year starting, Does it happen sometimes? Absolutely but its rare compared to the percentage of players in their first year that come out and don't play like that. Honestly this his how it should have probably went down taking into account what we know and not changing any events that actually happened such as drafting a different player:

 

In 2013 we signed Walden to a contract and made him the starter(Apparently according to him he was told he was going to be  a starter instead of competing to start) even after him being in the league 7 years and while being a very good run contain player he offered little pass rush, He improved on that a bit last year...He had 6 sacks but we are talking about a player who had been in the league 9 years at the finish of that year and who had been a starter for 4 of those years...In other words he has had the equivalent of a rookie contract years worth of starts (4 years).....3 of those 4 years he started 14 or more games and up till last year offered no more then 3 sacks in a season.

 

Enter your 1st round pick Bjoern Werner the same year who you drafted on the 1st round (2013)...Keep in mind Walden was apparently told he was going to be the starter from the get go with no competition, What we know about Werner is the following

 

1.He is NOT the the quickest linebacker off the edge when it comes to pass rush

2.He has not developed much of anything in the form of pass rush moves, Instead chooses to usually hand fight or just try to beat the Tackle with speed (Does not consistently work)

3.He had 747 defensive snaps in 2014 which was his first year starting

4.He played 352 snaps his rookie year and missed 4 games do to injury....That's 29.3 snaps a game average in 12 games...average that through 16 games and thats 469 snaps over the course of 16 games had he played a full season healthy...That's for a player you drafted in the 1st round over a  player (Who has played well for us) who had 9 sacks in his career coming into his 1st year as a Colt

 

Now I have no complaints about Walden. He is a fine player based on what has been asked of him but we know the player he is and while Werner is not the quickest off the edge and has not developed any go to pass rush moves as you can see he has not really been given every chance to do so for a player we invested a 1st round pick on, He was the starter for the majority of 1 year and then benched...Granted Cole is a better pass rusher at rush linebacker but I really don't see the upside of starting Walden at Sam over Werner, Why not have him start and till Mathis returns and we move Cole to Sam? Werner had 3 defensive snaps in game 1.....Im saying right now they gave up on Werner, Barring injuries I think he sees the field defensively very little from here on out as a Colt after 16 games worth of starts and 6.5 sacks. Now he has played in 29 of 33 games and 1102 regular season game snaps as a Colt...That's 38 snaps sporadic snaps a game average. Of the 2088 defensive snaps taken by the defense since being drafted....That's 52.7 of the snaps....Little over half

 

Yep I know I rambled on but thought I would lay all this out for ya

[theanarchist]

Yep...the Colts chances to win the SB have been squandered alright.  You know, because teams are only allowed to win when their QB is on their rookie contract.  

 

Note:  Take a look at that chart comparing the Colts to the "elite" teams.  Notice anything?  You guessed it...the Colts beat every team on the list with the exception of the Cheaters.

I'm not saying that the chance has been squandered. It will make it more difficult to keep top talent when your QB is making 25 mil a year. That's just an unavoidable fact. The points I was talking about was the make up of the roster in terms of age and level of talent. This team needs to get younger and more talented thru the draft.

[BOTT]

We are still talking about 1 season worth of starts, Its completely unrealistic to expect the majority of players to come in and play at a Pro Bowl level their first year starting, Does it happen sometimes? Absolutely but its rare compared to the percentage of players in their first year that come out and don't play like that. Honestly this his how it should have probably went down taking into account what we know and not changing any events that actually happened such as drafting a different player:

In 2013 we signed Walden to a contract and made him the starter(Apparently according to him he was told he was going to be a starter instead of competing to start) even after him being in the league 7 years and while being a very good run contain player he offered little pass rush, He improved on that a bit last year...He had 6 sacks but we are talking about a player who had been in the league 9 years at the finish of that year and who had been a starter for 4 of those years...In other words he has had the equivalent of a rookie contract years worth of starts (4 years).....3 of those 4 years he started 14 or more games and up till last year offered no more then 3 sacks in a season.

Enter your 1st round pick Bjoern Werner the same year who you drafted on the 1st round (2013)...Keep in mind Walden was apparently told he was going to be the starter from the get go with no competition, What we know about Werner is the following

1.He is NOT the the quickest linebacker off the edge when it comes to pass rush

2.He has not developed much of anything in the form of pass rush moves, Instead chooses to usually hand fight or just try to beat the Tackle with speed (Does not consistently work)

3.He had 747 defensive snaps in 2014 which was his first year starting

4.He played 352 snaps his rookie year and missed 4 games do to injury....That's 29.3 snaps a game average in 12 games...average that through 16 games and thats 469 snaps over the course of 16 games had he played a full season healthy...That's for a player you drafted in the 1st round over a player (Who has played well for us) who had 9 sacks in his career coming into his 1st year as a Colt

Now I have no complaints about Walden. He is a fine player based on what has been asked of him but we know the player he is and while Werner is not the quickest off the edge and has not developed any go to pass rush moves as you can see he has not really been given every chance to do so for a player we invested a 1st round pick on, He was the starter for the majority of 1 year and then benched...Granted Cole is a better pass rusher at rush linebacker but I really don't see the upside of starting Walden at Sam over Werner, Why not have him start and till Mathis returns and we move Cole to Sam? Werner had 3 defensive snaps in game 1.....Im saying right now they gave up on Werner, Barring injuries I think he sees the field defensively very little from here on out as a Colt after 16 games worth of starts and 6.5 sacks. Now he has played in 29 of 33 games and 1102 regular season game snaps as a Colt...That's 38 snaps sporadic snaps a game average. Of the 2088 defensive snaps taken by the defense since being drafted....That's 52.7 of the snaps....Little over half

Yep I know I rambled on but thought I would lay all this out for ya

You start Walden over Werner because Werner can't play.....and Walden is a solid hard nosed player.