Grigson surely knows and loves his offensive skills players....

[Mouthfire]

Here: TY Hilton, LaVon Brazill, Donte Moncrief, Vic Ballard, Coby Fleener, Dwayne Allen, and now Phillip Dorsett

 

There: Desean Jackson, Lesean McCoy, Jeremy Maclin

 

If history has shown us anything, he really knows his offensive skills players.  He absolutely rocks those positions out of the park.  But how well does he do drafting everywhere else?  Despite being a former offensive lineman, I haven't been overly impressed with his OL accumen so far.  He seems to have hit the nail on the head with Mewhort, but then there' s Thornton, Holmes, etc etc, and questionable decisions regarding center/guard positions.  He hit with Newsome, but then there's Werner and Hughes. 

 

I don't know... I guess we'll have to see.  My worry is that if there's any grey zone at all in drafting one player vs another, he's going to resort to drafting what he knows best (e.g. Phillip Dorsett), rather than what the team really needs.

[SDakColts]

Remember the drafts where he spent most of the picks on the offensive line was not very strong drafts and didn't have a lot of talent in the trenches. This year there is some solid offensive line prospects so if he drafted this year and missed I would not be as understanding as the previous years. I agree his record is spotty at best, but all in all I am alright with most of his picks. Just remember though it isn't as bad as it could be just look at the Browns.

[Gavin]

Its as if most people don't pay attention to any of Grigsons interviews..... you know specifically the one where he said he did not believe in putting all the hard work into a draft board only to panic and reach for need if the need was not graded equal to or was higher then the next closest graded player)

[Jonathan24]

the fact that our offense can score on anyone even with a crappy line says that defense was the way to go with this pick.... WR is ok to draft but not with the first pick.

[ProblChld32]

Still have 7 more picks lets not get our underoos in a bunch guys. there are quality guys still out there capable of coming in and contributing right away.

[bcnelson]

the fact that our offense can score on anyone even with a crappy line says that defense was the way to go with this pick.... WR is ok to draft but not with the first pick.

 

We can't score against New England. Maybe another receiver isn't such a bad idea...

[Mouthfire]

Its as if most people don't pay attention to any of Grigsons interviews..... you know specifically the one where he said he did not believe in putting all the hard work into a draft board only to panic and reach for need if the need was not graded equal to or was higher then the next closest graded player)

 

Sure, I'll buy that, Gavin.  But what if Grigson really isn't that good at evaluating talent outside those positions?  You have to admit, that's a possibility.

 

Just a few examples: his inaugural draft in 2012.  1st round, we draft Andrew Luck.  Wonderful... my grandmother could make that pick.  2nd round comes around, and we have huge, glaring holes at offensive guard and right tackle.  There is a solid, highly regarded, mid-1st round level talent by the name of Cordy Glenn who can solidly play offensive guard, but has the skillset to slide to right tackle in a heartbeat.  He somehow slides past the first round undrafted.  What do we do?  We pick the tight end that many draftniks were projecting as low as a 2nd/3rd round talent.  Fleener ends up being an "okay" player for us, and Glenn becomes a solid, long term fixture on the Bill's offensive line from Day 1.

 

This year rolls around, we have huge, glaring needs in the offensive and defensive trenches, safety, ILB, pass rusher... more positions than I care to mention.  Who's on the board?  Landon Collins, Malcolm Brown, Eddie Goldman, La'El Collins, Eric Kendrick....  All of those were solid, 1st round talents that would have been no-brainers.  What do we do?  We pick the 2nd round level receiving talent, in a position where we didn't really have a need. 

 

You see a pattern here?

 

To contrast it, the Patriots come around a few picks later at 32, have a huge, glaring need at nose tackle.  What do they do?  They take the solid, 1st level talent who's a nose tackle. 

 

In other words, Billichek did the sensible thing... Grigson did not.  Do you think Grigson is a better drafter than Billichek?  I sure don't....  I'm just saying, sometimes it's better to do the sensible thing, and not be cute with your draft picks. 

[akcolt]

the fact that our offense can score on anyone even with a crappy line says that defense was the way to go with this pick.... WR is ok to draft but not with the first pick.

You watch the AFC Championship game?? Our offense killed us in that game because we could not move the ball.

[chad72]

You watch the AFC Championship game?? Our offense killed us in that game because we could not move the ball.

 

That is because we became one dimensional once the Pats put together that drive against us after going into the half 17-7, ran all over us to make it 24-7 and the rest is history with us trying to pass against their strength, their pass D. They played against our strength trying to pass 3 times vs our pass D in the red zone, we did great to limit them to a FG to 17-7. Then, they said "we are going back to doing what we do to the Colts all the time, run at them after the half more".

 

It is easier to stop us once they know what is coming. If we had gotten the ball to Luck back at 17-7 after the half, the run game still had more of a chance to be established, IMO. Just my two cents.

[Rally5]

Its as if most people don't pay attention to any of Grigsons interviews..... you know specifically the one where he said he did not believe in putting all the hard work into a draft board only to panic and reach for need if the need was not graded equal to or was higher then the next closest graded player)

I now believe this is an excuse to avoid making difficult decisions.  I expect us to go QB in round two because BPA will be Bryce Petty.  It should only be part of a larger strategy not the entire strategy, he's a meat head......EDITH!

[Gavin]

Sure, I'll buy that, Gavin.  But what if Grigson really isn't that good at evaluating talent outside those positions?  You have to admit, that's a possibility.

 

Just a few examples: his inaugural draft in 2012.  1st round, we draft Andrew Luck.  Wonderful... my grandmother could make that pick.  2nd round comes around, and we have huge, glaring holes at offensive guard and right tackle.  There is a solid, highly regarded, mid-1st round level talent by the name of Cordy Glenn who can solidly play offensive guard, but has the skillset to slide to right tackle in a heartbeat.  He somehow slides past the first round undrafted.  What do we do?  We pick the tight end that many draftniks were projecting as low as a 2nd/3rd round talent.  Fleener ends up being an "okay" player for us, and Glenn becomes a solid, long term fixture on the Bill's offensive line from Day 1.

 

This year rolls around, we have huge, glaring needs in the offensive and defensive trenches, safety, ILB, pass rusher... more positions than I care to mention.  Who's on the board?  Landon Collins, Malcolm Brown, Eddie Goldman, La'El Collins, Eric Kendrick....  All of those were solid, 1st round talents that would have been no-brainers.  What do we do?  We pick the 2nd round level receiving talent, in a position where we didn't really have a need. 

 

You see a pattern here?

 

To contrast it, the Patriots come around a few picks later at 32, have a huge, glaring need at nose tackle.  What do they do?  They take the solid, 1st level talent who's a nose tackle. 

 

In other words, Billichek did the sensible thing... Grigson did not.  Do you think Grigson is a better drafter than Billichek?  I sure don't....  I'm just saying, sometimes it's better to do the sensible thing, and not be cute with your draft picks. 

"But what if Grigson really isn't that good at evaluating talent outside those positions?"

 

I don't think its possible, I think its a fact in some positions

 

Do you think Grigson is a better drafter than Billichek? 

 

Obviously not...But lets not ignore that the Patriots have had some whiffs in the draft...Ras I Dowling......Ron Brace.......Jermaine Cunningham....All high round picks (2nd rounders) who are no longer on the team

[austriancolt]

Trent Richardson? 

[chad72]

It is funny though that Ozzie, that everyone applauds for taking BPA, takes Matt Elam when they needed a safety (when Ed Reed retired and Pollard went to Titans), C.J.Mosley when they had a vacancy at ILB (Ray Lewis retired, Ellerbe was gone, Jameel McClain was going to be UFA) and then Perriman, when he needs a WR (Torrey Smith gone), and people somehow think he is drafting purely BPA. Ozzie is definitely, I mean, definitely drafting BPA close to a position of need.

[Rally5]

You watch the AFC Championship game?? Our offense killed us in that game because we could not move the ba

 

Still have 7 more picks lets not get our underoos in a bunch guys. there are quality guys still out there capable of coming in and contributing right away.

We have picked 2 back up receivers with our last 6 picks.  It's not about our underoos.

[Gavin]

I now believe this is an excuse to avoid making difficult decisions.  I expect us to go QB in round two because BPA will be Bryce Petty.  It should only be part of a larger strategy not the entire strategy, he's a meat head......EDITH!

Feel better? Until your ready to have an intelligent conversation about this (Obviously your not yet according to your post) then I have nothing to add

[Gavin]

It is funny though that Ozzie, that everyone applauds for taking BPA, takes Matt Elam when they needed a safety, C.J.Mosley when they had a vacancy at ILB, and then Perriman, when he needs a WR, and people somehow think he is drafting purely BPA. Ozzie is definitely, I mean, definitely drafting BPA close to a position of need.

Except Elam has not been very good

[Mouthfire]

"But what if Grigson really isn't that good at evaluating talent outside those positions?"

 

I don't think its possible, I think its a fact in some positions

 

Do you think Grigson is a better drafter than Billichek? 

 

Obviously not...But lets not ignore that the Patriots have had some whiffs in the draft...Ras I Dowling......Ron Brace.......Jermaine Cunningham....All high round picks (2nd rounders) who are no longer on the team

 

Yeah, I hear ya'.  Everyone whiffs on draft picks here and there.

 

At the same time, though, I think it's fair to make judgements based on "gold standards".  If there is a gold standard in the NFL (as much as I don't like it), it would be Bellichek.  If Bellichek were in our shoes at the 29th pick, do you think he picks Dorsett?  I don't think so.  I think he takes Malcolm Brown.  And he did take Malcom Brown.. albeit a few picks later.

[Rally5]

Feel better? Until your ready to have an intelligent conversation about this (Obviously your not yet according to your post) then I have nothing to add

I feel pretty good right now, let's dance.  Tell me how this is a good call, I want someone to explain it to me so I can buy into to it.  Be sure you don't hit me with generalities, do your homework if you want to engage.  Start with we have 10 quality errr.. 9.5 quality receivers on the roster, that's my starting point.

[chad72]

Except Elam has not been very good

 

Whether the player is good or not, I am just talking drafting philosophy here and gave examples of how a reputable GM drafts. Grigson says he models after Ozzie, I do not see the correlation, to be honest. You need to get the horses at positions of need to rectify those positions and if you find one rated close enough, you take him. If Malcolm Brown was going to be a reach, I can understand. Heck, ironically, the Cowboys, who reached a bit for some of their OL the last 2 drafts (Travis Frederick comes to mind) have had the best impact production out of their first rounders lately.

[Rally5]

Yeah, I hear ya'.  Everyone whiffs on draft picks here and there.

 

At the same time, though, I think it's fair to make judgements based on "gold standards".  If there is a gold standard in the NFL (as much as I don't like it), it would be Bellichek.  If Bellichek were in our shoes at the 29th pick, do you think he picks Dorsett?  I don't think so.  I think he takes Malcolm Brown.  And he did take Malcom Brown.. albeit a few picks later.

Belichick doesn't "waste" picks on wide outs at least according to Belichick not at  no.1 because the game is won with QB's and in the trenches, everything works from there out.....

[Mouthfire]

Whether the player is good or not, I am just talking drafting philosophy here and gave examples of how a reputable GM drafts. Grigson says he models after Ozzie, I do not see the correlation, to be honest. You need to get the horses at positions of need to rectify those positions. If Malcolm Brown was going to be a reach, I can understand. Heck, ironically, the Cowboys, who reached a bit for some of their OL the last 2 drafts (Travis Frederick comes to mind) have had the best impact production out of their first rounders lately.

 

Well, of course, that's the thing.  Malcom Brown wasn't a reach.  I don't think anyone would would have said "The Colts drafted him too high", if we picked him.  

 

It very well may be that Dorsett may be a better overall player than Brown (although that's still up for debate), but for sake of argument, let's say they were reasonably close in terms of talent:  Would you have improved your team more by drafting the 3rd/4th WR on your depth chart or a potential Day 1 defensive line starter?  I think that's fairly obvious.

[Gavin]

Yeah, I hear ya'.  Everyone whiffs on draft picks here and there.

 

At the same time, though, I think it's fair to make judgements based on "gold standards".  If there is a gold standard in the NFL (as much as I don't like it), it would be Bellichek.  If Bellichek were in our shoes at the 29th pick, do you think he picks Dorsett?  I don't think so.  I think he takes Malcolm Brown.  And he did take Malcom Brown.. albeit a few picks later.

That would take me knowing how the Patriots board is set up really, I obviously don't. Look....Dorsett was not my first pick with who was available.....I had him as a high 2nd round grade who could sneak into the 1st......With who was available Kendricks was the BPA on my board...followed by Goldman and Phillips, With that said...I don't think any of those guys except Kendricks will have the consistent impact year in and year out that Dorsett will given a year to develop or 2. To be honest with you I can see a few late round D Linemen putting up production like what I think Goldman and Phillips and Carl Davis will...

 

Draft position don't dictate what a player will do in the pros,,,Do they have a higher probability of being big time talent? Sure but the best GM's can find talent late in the draft and coach guys up

[Mouthfire]

Belichick doesn't "waste" picks on wide outs at least according to Belichick not at  no.1 because the game is won with QB's and in the trenches, everything works from there out.....

 

Hmmmm... So maybe he's onto something there? 

[ProblChld32]

 

You watch the AFC Championship game?? Our offense killed us in that game because we could not move the ba

 

Still have 7 more picks lets not get our underoos in a bunch guys. there are quality guys still out there capable of coming in and contributing right away.

We have picked 2 back up receivers with our last 6 picks.  It's not about our underoos.

 

 

Whom exactly are you referring to as a Backup?

[Gavin]

I feel pretty good right now, let's dance.  Tell me how this is a good call, I want someone to explain it to me so I can buy into to it.  Be sure you don't hit me with generalities, do your homework if you want to engage.  Start with we have 10 quality errr.. 9.5 quality receivers on the roster, that's my starting point.

Lets start with this: What has Kadron Boone, Vincent Brown, Duron Carter, Ryan Lankford, Josh Lenz done to show they are quality receiver in the NFL? Right now I count 4 quality receivers that have produced to varying degrees in the NFL....Johnson...Hilton....Whalen(He don't have the measurable as the other but he has shown when called upon he can produce)....Moncrief

[Mouthfire]

That would take me knowing how the Patriots board is set up really, I obviously don't. Look....Dorsett was not my first pick with who was available.....I had him as a high 2nd round grade who could sneak into the 1st......With who was available Kendricks was the BPA on my board...followed by Goldman and Phillips, With that said...I don't think any of those guys except Kendricks will have the consistent impact year in and year out that Dorsett will given a year to develop or 2. To be honest with you I can see a few late round D Linemen putting up production like what I think Goldman and Phillips and Carl Davis will...

 

Draft position don't dictate what a player will do in the pros,,,Do they have a higher probability of being big time talent? Sure but the best GM's can find talent late in the draft and coach guys up

 

Gavin, I don't disagree.  I just have a sneaking suspicion that Grigson has an underlying bias towards offensive skills players, and those players will always be higher on his draft boards than they would be on other teams' boards.  That's not an entirely bad thing, as he undeniably has an eye to picking those guys out, but I'm afraid that that same bias is making him overlook really good players in other positions, that I would argue would probably help us out more, both in the short and long term.

[colts8718]

Trent Richardson was a great example 

[Mouthfire]

Trent Richardson was a great example 

 

Hahah.  I missed that.  And, yes.

[Gavin]

Gavin, I don't disagree.  I just have a sneaking suspicion that Grigson has an underlying bias towards offensive skills players, and those players will always be higher on his draft boards than they would be on other teams' boards.  That's not an entirely bad thing, as he undeniably has an eye to picking those guys out, but I'm afraid that that same bias is making him overlook really good players in other positions, that I would argue would probably help us out more, both in the short and long term.

"I just have a sneaking suspicion that Grigson has an underlying bias towards offensive skills players"

 

Going off how he has drafted since being appointed GM a case can be made for that I understand...But he has been adamant about BPA, Dorsett is likely going to give multiple 1000+ yard seasons given a year or 2 to develop. Kendricks is the one I could see having the more immediate impact

[Mouthfire]

"I just have a sneaking suspicion that Grigson has an underlying bias towards offensive skills players"

 

Going off how he has drafted since being appointed GM a case can be made for that I understand...But he has been adamant about BPA, Dorsett is likely going to give multiple 1000+ yard seasons given a year or 2 to develop. Kendricks is the one I could see having the more immediate impact

 

Bah... I would have preferred Kendricks or a number of other guys over yet another WR.  But what do I know?  Can't deny the "wow factor" in Dorsett's tape, though. 

[BOTT]

Its as if most people don't pay attention to any of Grigsons interviews..... you know specifically the one where he said he did not believe in putting all the hard work into a draft board only to panic and reach for need if the need was not graded equal to or was higher then the next closest graded player)

I hope Tyler Lockett isn't his highest graded player on the board come the 2nd round lol. Although I love Lockett