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Both SB Teams Clueless On Second Down


dw49

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There was 1:02 on the clock when Lynch was stopped at the 1 yard line. Plenty of time to run the ball 3 times considering the time out Seattle had left. They used 40 seconds before snapping the ball for that poorly ran play. That was horrible clock management followed by faulty play calling and bad execution. 

 

That said with 1:02 left on the clock , how does BB not use his time outs to give Brady enough time to tie the game if Seattle scored. He can't possibly figure they would stop Seattle. Fact is NE was about the worst (statically)  in the NFl in goal line situations. Not saying he's not the best coach in the business but he was pretty lucky Seattle brain farted away more than half the clock lining up for that play.

 

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000467976/article/why-did-seahawks-take-so-long-before-second-down

 

 

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They were saying here today that Bill noticed Pete change his personnel grouping after the run play on first down and saw a pass play was coming which is why he did not call the time out. He had to figure his ability to defend the pass from the one was pretty good which was a good bet. Of course hard for me to believe that he saw the pick so you still have third down with Lynch running and probably fourth down too. I was screaming for him to call a timeout. It is funny now how people will say Bill was in Pete's head and got him to throw instead of run. I think it is all a bunch of malarkey but Pete blinked and the Pats D made the play making Bill look like a genius again. But I agree that he was bailed out by Pete and that call and his DB making the play of his life.

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They were saying here today that Bill noticed Pete change his personnel grouping after the run play on first down and saw a pass play was coming which is why he did not call the time out. He had to figure his ability to defend the pass from the one was pretty good which was a good bet. Of course hard for me to believe that he saw the pick so you still have third down with Lynch running and probably fourth down too. I was screaming for him to call a timeout. It is funny now how people will say Bill was in Pete's head and got him to throw instead of run. I think it is all a bunch of malarkey but Pete blinked and the Pats D made the play making Bill look like a genius again. But I agree that he was bailed out by Pete and that call and his DB making the play of his life.

 

 

That makes a little sense I guess. Maybe BB didn't expect Seattle to take so long to run the play and the pass would result in either a turnover , a TD or an incompletion. All three of those give Brady time to get into FG position  ... as long as they (Seattle) didn't take 40 seconds to run the play.  

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Here's an excellent explanation of it. Bill knew exactly what he was doing...

 

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/02/bill-belichick-timeouts-super-bowl-seattle-interception-new-england-patriots-brilliant-seattle-sehawks

 

It starts with Seattle’s lone remaining timeout. If the Seahawks had run on second down with 26 seconds left and not scored a touchdown, they would’ve had to call their final timeout to stop the clock. That almost ensures that both third and fourth down would be passes, a theoretical advantage for New England. (Or it might have had the reverse effect: With New England playing for a pass, there’s more room for Russell Wilson to run.)

But calling timeout back at 1:02 probably likely would have caused Seattle to run the ball on 2nd and 1 to either score a touchdown or flush out Belichick’s final timeout. A pass would have been almost out of the question since it would have stopped the clock with, say, 0:56 remaining and put Seattle into a third down with New England still holding two timeouts. (Although, given Bevell’s night, I suppose every play call, including a punt, was on the table.) The Patriots would have been certain to get the ball back with around 0:45, but with no timeouts.

By the Pats not calling timeout, Seattle had the opportunity to throw the ball without fear of New England regaining possession. In essence, Belichick dared the Seahawks to make the most ill-advised pass in NFL history and the Seahawks were all too happy to comply.

Brilliant.

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That makes a little sense I guess. Maybe BB didn't expect Seattle to take so long to run the play and the pass would result in either a turnover , a TD or an incompletion. All three of those give Brady time to get into FG position  ... as long as they (Seattle) didn't take 40 seconds to run the play.  

 

Bill knew the Seahawks goal line formations. He had his team practice against them just for this moment. When he saw that O group, he expected there could be a pass, thus he left Revis, Browner, and Butler in.  But he went goal line with the rest of the group.  Then let the clock run.  Now, the clock which looked to be on Seattle's side was against them.  They had to run a play!  Well, they let too much clock bleed so if the wanted to have 3 plays if needed, they'll have to throw on 2nd down.  The rest is history.

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Snipped for  brevity-

 

In essence, Belichick dared the Seahawks to make the most ill-advised pass in NFL history and the Seahawks were all too happy to comply.

Brilliant.

brilliant.jpg

 

Only thing was, no QB on any NFL team at any time this year threw a pick from the 1 yard line the whole year.  Well over 100 passes, no interceptions.  Nada. Zilch. Zero.

 

It took a bad play on RW and Lockette at the same time to allow Butler to be a hero.  But Butler recognized it and was where he needed to be as well.

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Here's an excellent explanation of it. Bill knew exactly what he was doing...

 

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/02/bill-belichick-timeouts-super-bowl-seattle-interception-new-england-patriots-brilliant-seattle-sehawks

 

It starts with Seattle’s lone remaining timeout. If the Seahawks had run on second down with 26 seconds left and not scored a touchdown, they would’ve had to call their final timeout to stop the clock. That almost ensures that both third and fourth down would be passes, a theoretical advantage for New England. (Or it might have had the reverse effect: With New England playing for a pass, there’s more room for Russell Wilson to run.)

But calling timeout back at 1:02 probably likely would have caused Seattle to run the ball on 2nd and 1 to either score a touchdown or flush out Belichick’s final timeout. A pass would have been almost out of the question since it would have stopped the clock with, say, 0:56 remaining and put Seattle into a third down with New England still holding two timeouts. (Although, given Bevell’s night, I suppose every play call, including a punt, was on the table.) The Patriots would have been certain to get the ball back with around 0:45, but with no timeouts.

By the Pats not calling timeout, Seattle had the opportunity to throw the ball without fear of New England regaining possession. In essence, Belichick dared the Seahawks to make the most ill-advised pass in NFL history and the Seahawks were all too happy to comply.

Brilliant.

 

 

That's assuming that Seattle went brain dead and ran 40 seconds off the clock after the 1st down run. IMO , way more horrible clock management by Seattle than BB brilliance . The whole 2 minute drill was horrendous . They had 3 Time Outs and 1:52 left at the NE 49. They used 2 TO's and about 1:30 to throw 2 incompletions , 1 completion , and run the ball once. A lot of that has to be on RW and or Bevil.

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That's assuming that Seattle went brain dead and ran 40 seconds off the clock after the 1st down run. IMO , way more horrible clock management by Seattle than BB brilliance . The whole 2 minute drill was horrendous . They had 3 Time Outs and 1:52 left at the NE 49. They used 2 TO's and about 1:30 to throw 2 incompletions , 1 completion , and run the ball once. A lot of that has to be on RW and or Bevil.

No way, it had to BB's genius because Chrise Chase said so.

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We'll never know NE's side unless BB cares to share which he might someday. What I am pretty sure of is BB's clock management leaves little error so he let it run down on purpose.

 

 

JJ... it was Seattle that let the clock run down. BB had nothing to do with Seattle getting off about 5 plays with 2 minutes and 3 time outs left. All he did was elect not to use his 2 timeouts which would have been a terrible mistake if Seattle decided to run M Lynch for the yard. Besides 2 of those plays were incomplete passes. I understand Carroll not wanting to give Brady a whole bunch of time left on the clock but getting into a situation that at least according to Carroll , he had to throw the ball from the one yard line is just plain bad clock management. To have the best short yardage runner in the entire NFL and you "urinate " a minute thirty and two timeouts running 5 plays in order to dictate "wasting a down " throwing the football  ?  Insane.....

 

I do understand that BB saw the package Seattle had in the game but the point Silver (the link I posted) makes is that NE was lucky that Seattle took 40 seconds to get that play off. 

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There was 1:02 on the clock when Lynch was stopped at the 1 yard line. Plenty of time to run the ball 3 times considering the time out Seattle had left. They used 40 seconds before snapping the ball for that poorly ran play. That was horrible clock management followed by faulty play calling and bad execution. 

 

That said with 1:02 left on the clock , how does BB not use his time outs to give Brady enough time to tie the game if Seattle scored. He can't possibly figure they would stop Seattle. Fact is NE was about the worst (statically)  in the NFl in goal line situations. Not saying he's not the best coach in the business but he was pretty lucky Seattle brain farted away more than half the clock lining up for that play.

 

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000467976/article/why-did-seahawks-take-so-long-before-second-down

Wrong...NE knew Seattle neede a TD and not a FG....

It would have been foolish to call time outs to help SEattle.

NE was right to not call time outs incase Seattle scored...remember/Hawks could not run the clock down because they needed more than a FG

Pats played it right and Seattle ..under pressure...strayed from what they do best

There was 1:02 on the clock when Lynch was stopped at the 1 yard line. Plenty of time to run the ball 3 times considering the time out Seattle had left. They used 40 seconds before snapping the ball for that poorly ran play. That was horrible clock management followed by faulty play calling and bad execution. 

 

That said with 1:02 left on the clock , how does BB not use his time outs to give Brady enough time to tie the game if Seattle scored. He can't possibly figure they would stop Seattle. Fact is NE was about the worst (statically)  in the NFl in goal line situations. Not saying he's not the best coach in the business but he was pretty lucky Seattle brain farted away more than half the clock lining up for that play.

 

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000467976/article/why-did-seahawks-take-so-long-before-second-down

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Wrong...NE knew Seattle needed a TD and not a FG....

It would have been foolish to call time outs to help SEattle.

NE was right to not call time outs in case Seattle scored...remember/Hawks could not run the clock down because they needed more than a FG

Pats played it right and Seattle ..under pressure...strayed from what they do best

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Wrong...NE knew Seattle needed a TD and not a FG....

It would have been foolish to call time outs to help SEattle.

NE was right to not call time outs in case Seattle scored...remember/Hawks could not run the clock down because they needed more than a FG

Pats played it right and Seattle ..under pressure...strayed from what they do best

 

 

There should have been no issue whats so ever with Seattle having enough time to score a TD. It was only hideous clock management that made it an issue. So I guess I say ...

 

Wrong... Seattle had 1 minute and 2 seconds and a TO to go a yard. I mean don't be sucked into that BB genius stuff on that one. Only a pure * would run the full 40 seconds off the clock and make BB right and time and issue. 

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There should have been no issue whats so ever with Seattle having enough time to score a TD. It was only hideous clock management that made it an issue. So I guess I say ...

 

Wrong... Seattle had 1 minute and 2 seconds and a TO to go a yard. I mean don't be sucked into that BB genius stuff on that one. Only a pure * would run the full 40 seconds off the clock and make BB right and time and issue. 

 

I read one interview with him and he claimed he was keeping them in his pocket for whatever was left. I think he was dumbfounded by Seattle's bad clock management. Its easy to claim brilliance when it works out. BB is very good at clock management, but some luck played in there too. If they had scored with 6 seconds on the clock, we would be talking why he didnt take the time outs, and not the decision to pass. 

 

To the victors go the spoils.

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I read one interview with him and he claimed he was keeping them in his pocket for whatever was left. I think he was dumbfounded by Seattle's bad clock management. Its easy to claim brilliance when it works out. BB is very good at clock management, but some luck played in there too. If they had scored with 6 seconds on the clock, we would be talking why he didnt take the time outs, and not the decision to pass. 

 

To the victors go the spoils.

 

 

Yep.. I'll buy that one and that's what I said in my second post. I think BB should have called the TO but I can see some reasoning for keeping them. He may have very well seen Seattle's 3 WR's and figured they were running a play right away and if the pass was incomplete , now he can stop the clock on 3rd down and have around 45 seconds and a time out if Seattle scored. 

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Sounds to me just a gut feeling decision that turned out to be right . No BB genius and IMO was way more Seattle butchering of 2 minutes and 3 time outs from 49 yards out. Here ya go. From the mouth of BB...\

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000468110/article/bill-belichick-explains-no-timeout-at-end-of-super-bowl

One thing about Bill he has maybe the best sense for the flow of game. It is what makes him such a dynamic in game coach. In the Ravens AFCCG game in 2012 many thought he would take a time out to freeze the kicker at the end but he didn't because he saw that Harbaugh was late getting his FG team out and the play clock was winding so he never called it and of course the kick was missed.

 

I do think the media tends to go over the top when these things happen and start with the Bill is a genius. But he felt good about his personnel especially when Pete ran his receivers on the field from the one. And let's face it, Brady is not scoring on that defense with 30 seconds to go. You have to trust your D and personnel groupings and it worked out for him.

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Seattle blew it twice on that last drive... there was a timeout burned after an incomplete pass and a second one used up when they had to run down the field to line up after Kearse made that catch. In hindsight, would have been better to take a delay of game on that one. 

 

It's really that first one that baffles me though. How do you need a timeout in the Super Bowl after an incomplete pass with under 2:00 left? If the 'Hawks had all three timeouts left they wouldn't have had to get cute. Or even two of the three would have given them more options. 

 

I re-watched most of the game on NFLN last night, and on that last drive Seattle got it down to the one almost in spite of themselves. Very poorly managed there, saved by good execution right up until the Butler pick. 

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One thing about Bill he has maybe the best sense for the flow of game. It is what makes him such a dynamic in game coach. In the Ravens AFCCG game in 2012 many thought he would take a time out to freeze the kicker at the end but he didn't because he saw that Harbaugh was late getting his FG team out and the play clock was winding so he never called it and of course the kick was missed.

 

I do think the media tends to go over the top when these things happen and start with the Bill is a genius. But he felt good about his personnel especially when Pete ran his receivers on the field from the one. And let's face it, Brady is not scoring on that defense with 30 seconds to go. You have to trust your D and personnel groupings and it worked out for him.

 

 

There was 1:02 left when Lynch ran the ball to the 1 yard line. If Seattle runs the ball twice and scored , with what transpired , the Pats would have had maybe 10 seconds left to get in FG range. If BB used a To and the Hawks scored on that play , he has 1 To left and about 58 seconds left. Plenty of time for Brady. If they score on the 2nd play , he would have about 51 seconds and no time outs left. So that 30 second thing you have is only because he didn't call a TO. I think he expected Seattle to run a pass play very quickly and saw no need to call the TO. If it's a TD , he has both time outs and around 50 seconds left . If incomplete , the clock stops. I think he was probably dumbfounded that Seattle ran 40 seconds off the clock. 

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Seattle blew it twice on that last drive... there was a timeout burned after an incomplete pass and a second one used up when they had to run down the field to line up after Kearse made that catch. In hindsight, would have been better to take a delay of game on that one. 

 

It's really that first one that baffles me though. How do you need a timeout in the Super Bowl after an incomplete pass with under 2:00 left? If the 'Hawks had all three timeouts left they wouldn't have had to get cute. Or even two of the three would have given them more options. 

 

I re-watched most of the game on NFLN last night, and on that last drive Seattle got it down to the one almost in spite of themselves. Very poorly managed there, saved by good execution right up until the Butler pick. 

 

 

Yeah .. it's all on R Wilson or Bevil and Wilson. As I said before , they used 1:32 and 2 time outs to run 2 incomplete passes , a completed pass , a run and the int. Ridiculous to be at the end of that game and have a clock issue. By that I mean they didn't have time to just run the ball in.

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There was 1:02 left when Lynch ran the ball to the 1 yard line. If Seattle runs the ball twice and scored , with what transpired , the Pats would have had maybe 10 seconds left to get in FG range. If BB used a To and the Hawks scored on that play , he has 1 To left and about 58 seconds left. Plenty of time for Brady. If they score on the 2nd play , he would have about 51 seconds and no time outs left. So that 30 second thing you have is only because he didn't call a TO. I think he expected Seattle to run a pass play very quickly and saw no need to call the TO. If it's a TD , he has both time outs and around 50 seconds left . If incomplete , the clock stops. I think he was probably dumbfounded that Seattle ran 40 seconds off the clock. 

I think that is the key to this whole thing. Bill was expecting Caroll to just line up right away and run and I think Carroll was expecting Bill to call time out. So there is the mix up and perhaps Carroll wanted to let the time run and then saw the goal line personnel from the Pats and decided to call the pass. It is just such a bang, bang thing. I think the criticism of Carroll is just too much at this point. He probably did over think it as you should easily be able to run three plays in a minute with a time out in hand. Heck, most teams run three plays with 15 seconds to play and no time outs.

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I think that is the key to this whole thing. Bill was expecting Caroll to just line up right away and run and I think Carroll was expecting Bill to call time out. So there is the mix up and perhaps Carroll wanted to let the time run and then saw the goal line personnel from the Pats and decided to call the pass. It is just such a bang, bang thing. I think the criticism of Carroll is just too much at this point. He probably did over think it as you should easily be able to run three plays in a minute with a time out in hand. Heck, most teams run three plays with 15 seconds to play and no time outs.

 

 

Pretty much agree and that's why I was tough on both guys with the title of the thread. 

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I think that the decision on not using timeouts was a secondary decision. I think the real decision here was "what is our best chance of winning this game...stopping them from scoring, OR letting them score, then trying to march down the field and tie the game, then take your chances in OT". To me, that decision was made prior to the 2nd down play, because otherwise they would have let Lynch score on the first down play and then had plenty of time. Once they tackled Lynch, it became clear to me that they were going to try to win the game on defense.

 

When you look at it in that light, then why would Bill ever use a timeout? I think that by not using it, he effectively took away a  play from Seattle. So instead of them having 4 cracks to run it in, they really only had 3 after the first down play ate 40 seconds of clock. With only 26 seconds to go and 2nd down, they literally had to pass the ball either on 2nd down or 3rd (if they ran it and got stuffed on 2nd).

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People keep saying Lynch would have scored, but its the furthest thing from the truth because NE put in their goal line package against Seattle's 3 WR set, it was as favorable a matchup as you could wish for on the goal line and is the reason Carroll passed it there.

The Pats goalline package would have drove Seattle's line backwards and it's very likely Lynch would have lost yards on the play.. so to suggest that he would have absolutely scored against a package that outmatched them against the run is quite silly and ignores the basic Xs and Os

If they ran it on 2nd down against that package, the most likely outcome was no gain or worse given the personnel. They would have had to use their last timeout in that scenario with about 20 seconds to go on 3rd down which forces you to pass because they wouldnt have had enough time to run 2 run plays in a row... they would have needed an incomplete or TD on 3rd down.. and then on 4th they could run it or pass it.

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I think that the decision on not using timeouts was a secondary decision. I think the real decision here was "what is our best chance of winning this game...stopping them from scoring, OR letting them score, then trying to march down the field and tie the game, then take your chances in OT". To me, that decision was made prior to the 2nd down play, because otherwise they would have let Lynch score on the first down play and then had plenty of time. Once they tackled Lynch, it became clear to me that they were going to try to win the game on defense.

 

When you look at it in that light, then why would Bill ever use a timeout? I think that by not using it, he effectively took away a  play from Seattle. So instead of them having 4 cracks to run it in, they really only had 3 after the first down play ate 40 seconds of clock. With only 26 seconds to go and 2nd down, they literally had to pass the ball either on 2nd down or 3rd (if they ran it and got stuffed on 2nd).

 

I think you're right on here. If the Patriots were trying to save clock they wouldn't have tackled Lynch at the 1 on first down, and they would have called for time right away after they did. 

 

Maybe Belichick thought about the Giants game, about how they let Bradshaw get in, and decided that this time, going for the stop was a better idea. They have much better corners than they had in 2011 and you can trust them more in man, and crash the line with every other body. 

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I think you're right on here. If the Patriots were trying to save clock they wouldn't have tackled Lynch at the 1 on first down, and they would have called for time right away after they did. 

 

Maybe Belichick thought about the Giants game, about how they let Bradshaw get in, and decided that this time, going for the stop was a better idea. They have much better corners than they had in 2011 and you can trust them more in man, and crash the line with every other body. 

 

They would have had a minute and 2 timeouts if they let Lynch score on first down. That's plenty of time, but I think he weighed in the fact that Seattle's defense isn't exactly the type of D that you should reasonably expect to run right through, AND at that point he'd be playing to tie the game and would still have to win it in OT. Weighed against letting the clock run and trying to stop them on 3 plays, he chose that option. I think had the numbers been different to where a Seattle TD would have only put them ahead by 1 or 2 pts and you very well might have seen them let Lynch score...because now the Field Goal wins it.

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Never know. That doesn't help that Seattle called the dumbest play in history.

They did...no doubt about it. Now, let me ask you this...had Bill called a timeout after Lynch was stopped at the 1, do you think they would have run that play? I don't. That's why the timeout wasn't called.

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Yeah .. it's all on R Wilson or Bevil and Wilson. As I said before , they used 1:32 and 2 time outs to run 2 incomplete passes , a completed pass , a run and the int. Ridiculous to be at the end of that game and have a clock issue. By that I mean they didn't have time to just run the ball in.

They should of spike the ball in the previous play. No way they should have a clock issue in the end.

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ROFL this thread is greatness. The Pats got as lucky as the Seahawks got brain dead on that last play.

I'm not ripping the Pats for it. Luck is part of it. That's not good enough for Pats fans though which is silly.

What is amazing is the Pats dominated that game for 3 of the 4 quarters and yet were in position to lose on a crazy, flukey catch ... again. That's football. I'll take it every time. Just win baby, right? ;)

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What is amazing is the Pats dominated that game for 3 of the 4 quarters and yet were in position to lose on a crazy, flukey catch ... again. That's football. I'll take it every time. Just win baby, right? ;)

I blame Wilson for that. Who can't even get a completion till the 2nd quarter.
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What are you talking about?

I'm talking about how everyone on the Pat's sideline had given up. The Pats fans (except amfootball...kind of) are trying to rationalize and justify the fact that they didn't call timeout at 1:02 and implying that Bill planned on a pass on 2nd down. There was nobody in the world who didn't think Lynch could have ran that ball in, nor was there anybody in the world who didn't think that was the call except for whatever doofus came up with the other call.

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I'm talking about how everyone on the Pat's sideline had given up. The Pats fans (except amfootball...kind of) are trying to rationalize and justify the fact that they didn't call timeout at 1:02 and implying that Bill planned on a pass on 2nd down. There was nobody in the world who didn't think Lynch could have ran that ball in, nor was there anybody in the world who didn't think that was the call except for whatever doofus came up with the other call.

lmao!! Wait - do you honestly believe that Bill "gave up"?! Yeah - you pretty much just went bankrupt at the Bank of Credibility if you believe that. There's a minute left and it's 2nd and goal. Why on earth would Bill give them the gift of a timeout there? With every second that Pete wasted between the end of the first down play and the beginning of the 2nd down play, his options narrowed as to what he could do.

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