Was Jim Harbaugh really a success at SF?

[Valpo2004]

Is the OP being serious with this question?

 

Did you hear the press conference yesterday with the Niner CEO? It was combative. For the relationship to have ended over "philosophical" differences is a joke. Niners mgmt needed to get on board with Jim's philosophy. 

 

+1

 

When a coach is winning that much, his philosophy is the only philosophy.  

 

Did Robert Kraft dump Belicheck for philosophical differences?  No he made Belicheck's philosophy the only philosophy.  

 

Now Harbaugh is going to Michigan where you can be certain that Harbaugh's philosophy will be the only philosophy.  Meanwhile the 49'ers will probably get worse, and the new coach who ever he is going to be in a rough bind.  Because the fan base will hate him unless he can win a SB.  He would literally have to outdo Harbaugh to get the fans to like him.  

[GoPats]

 I think it was 2006, AFC Championship round between the Chargers and the Patriots.  Chargers make an interception that could seal the game and a player who shall never be named decides to run the ball out of the end zone and fumbles it back to the Patriots who go on to win the game and go to the Super Bowl.  That situation had been very recently discussed by the coaches with the team.  The player didn't stop and draw on the coaching he had been given and he cost a potential SB appearance.  Coaches are not Gods, they're mentors.  The ultimate competitor is the player(s).  

 

 

Pats didn't go to the SB after that game. Lost to Indy in that classic AFCCG. I remember the play well though. Troy Brown made the strip on the INT. 

[GoPats]

I can't help but feel like the 49ers are making a huge mistake here. I know Harbaugh's schtick is a little tiresome for veteran players, but it's hard to argue with results. With so many teams desperate for competent coaching, to make this move, to me, sounds like a clash of egos. Sometimes to succeed you've got to put that sort of thing aside. 

[MJD42]

Now, I don't know Jim Harbaugh personally so I'm merely speculating here. With that said, I've been in the business world for some years now and in my experience, there are certain guys with similar personality traits to Jim Harbaugh that just don't last a long time at one particular business. That kind of mentality and attitude works only so long before it drives people away. And when it involves head management (Harbaugh) vs. executive level (Owner/GM), it can get nasty very quickly. I'm surprised that the 49ers won 8 games this year with Harbaugh with all the trouble in that locker room.

 

I think that Harbaugh will probably be at Michigan a little longer than he was at Stanford and the 49ers mainly because he will have much more freedom to call his own shots with very little push back from the AD or anyone else for that matter.

The issues don't seem to have been with the players though. It was with mgmt. The CEO said there were philosophical issues and said he wants more of a teaching coach. I am not sure I get that but I don't get the sense the Bill Belichick is a guy that gives anyone the warm fuzzies. Coaches are supposed to be judged on results. I do wonder if Jim maybe wanted more control ala Jimmy Johnson and Bill Parcells and that is what led to the split. If it was really over personality than the niners just made maybe one of the worst moves in NFL history ...

[Valpo2004]

The issues don't seem to have been with the players though. It was with mgmt. The CEO said there were philosophical issues and said he wants more of a teaching coach. I am not sure I get that but I don't get the sense the Bill Belichick is a guy that gives anyone the warm fuzzies. Coaches are supposed to be judged on results. I do wonder if Jim maybe wanted more control ala Jimmy Johnson and Bill Parcells and that is what led to the split. If it was really over personality than the niners just made maybe one of the worst moves in NFL history ...

 

I'm now of the opinion that management intentionally leaked rumors about the players not liking him in order to undermine him.  Because on Week 17 I didn't see a group of players that don't like their head coach and they havn't yet found a player to step forward and say they had a problem with Harbaugh.

[Restored]

The issues don't seem to have been with the players though. It was with mgmt. The CEO said there were philosophical issues and said he wants more of a teaching coach. I am not sure I get that but I don't get the sense the Bill Belichick is a guy that gives anyone the warm fuzzies. Coaches are supposed to be judged on results. I do wonder if Jim maybe wanted more control ala Jimmy Johnson and Bill Parcells and that is what led to the split. If it was really over personality than the niners just made maybe one of the worst moves in NFL history ...

 

Eh, I don't know. Some of the reports I saw over the year were locker room-related in addition to his conflicts with the executive level. I agree that coaches should be judged on performance but I think we can both agree that it is not the only factor that is at play in the business world. You can be the most talented, productive guy in the world but if people can't stand to work with you, you may be looking for a new place to work in a hurry.

 

I don't think it was his personality. I think it was his personality that lead to other things going wrong with executive management and maybe even some players and coaching staff.

[Superman]

+1

 

When a coach is winning that much, his philosophy is the only philosophy.  

 

Did Robert Kraft dump Belicheck for philosophical differences?  No he made Belicheck's philosophy the only philosophy.  

 

Now Harbaugh is going to Michigan where you can be certain that Harbaugh's philosophy will be the only philosophy.  Meanwhile the 49'ers will probably get worse, and the new coach who ever he is going to be in a rough bind.  Because the fan base will hate him unless he can win a SB.  He would literally have to outdo Harbaugh to get the fans to like him.  

 

No doubt Harbaugh deserves a TON of credit, but they also have one of the most talented rosters in the league. That's part of the reason he took the job. So I kind of disagree with the bolded.

 

That said, it's a shame that the two sides couldn't co-exist.

[BOTT]

Yes

And stop using "we" when giving your opinion or the opinion of talking heads who haven't had an original thought in years.

[oldunclemark]

Yes, of course Harbaugh was a huge success in SF. The 49ers are fools to let him go and I say that as a Seahawks fan. I don't doubt that he was a royal pain in the butt to deal with but you find a way to do it when you have a great coach.

'Huge success'?..I guess we judge coaches differently.

They were 8-8 this year and didn't win the Super Bowl in his time.

I know that's a high bar but it is the 49ers.. a storied franchise..a world championship past

I always hear how the Patriots havent won in 10 years. Pats folks dont talk about divisions

or appearances..They talk about NFL titles... Id that fair. No. But that's what is aaid

can you be a great coach without winning your league title?

[oldunclemark]

I think he may be better suited to college where 'upper management' basically gives

you complete control.

...you can Lord over your players and you can be a little crazy and get away with it because

you're not dealing with adults/..

..as somebody who likes the Bears and the Raiders...I/m glad he's not going to coach either one

[BloodyChamp]

Why are...so many/people...typing - like this...now.

The 49ers are so doomed. They're getting old. Gore, Boldin, Smith, even guys like Crabtree and Davis because those types don't last as long and sometimes they just shut off like a switch. I honestly thought that was the problem all year.

And the 49ers had a few good guys but the team was never talented. The 1994 49ers were talented, the 1995 Cowboys were talented...teams like that win a few games first in spite of the coach even if it implodes down the line. The best the 49ers ever did was 8-8 going between Mooch in 2001 and Harbaugh in 2011.

[oldunclemark]

SF has a problem at QB....They have for a long time..and they will next year,. too

[HtownColt]

This isn't even debatable

[NewColtsFan]

I'm not saying Harbaugh has failed..certainly not....but Fox has a better record in the last 4 years..

..has also lost in the Super Bowl....and he's hardly considered a genius

 

The QB for John Fox has been Peyton Manning.

 

The QB's for Jim Harbaugh has been Colin Kaepernick and Alex Smith.

 

Hardly an apples to apples comparison......

[amfootball]

The QB for John Fox has been Peyton Manning.

 

The QB's for Jim Harbaugh has been Colin Kaepernick and Alex Smith.

 

Hardly an apples to apples comparison......

Fox also took lousy Jake Delhomme to the Super Bowl in 2003 and also got to the playoffs with Tim Tebow and won a playoff game.

 

I agree it is not apples to apples but Fox has the better overall resume ...

[amfootball]

Why are...so many/people...typing - like this...now.

The 49ers are so doomed. They're getting old. Gore, Boldin, Smith, even guys like Crabtree and Davis because those types don't last as long and sometimes they just shut off like a switch. I honestly thought that was the problem all year.

And the 49ers had a few good guys but the team was never talented. The 1994 49ers were talented, the 1995 Cowboys were talented...teams like that win a few games first in spite of the coach even if it implodes down the line. The best the 49ers ever did was 8-8 going between Mooch in 2001 and Harbaugh in 2011.

The niners have a great blend of vet and young talent. Not sure what their cap situation is heading into next year but they are by far the best HC position for any potential candidate.

[rsrobinson]

The niners have a great blend of vet and young talent. Not sure what their cap situation is heading into next year but they are by far the best HC position for any potential candidate.

They do have some good young talent but they also have some tough personnel issues to deal with. Justin Smith may retire, Gore and Boldin are reaching the end of their careers, Vernon Davis' productivity has fallen off a cliff, Crabtree was mediocre this year just like Sherman said he was, Aldon Smith is one more arrest away from being cut or on indefinite suspension, no one knows how strong Bowman will be coming off that injury, the offensive line play has deteriorated, and their high paid QB of the future regressed substantially this year. They could have a bounce back season next year but if the Rams and Cardinals can find competent quarterbacks they could also easily end up in the cellar of the NFC West. If that happens then Jed York's popularity will reach Daniel Snyder levels in SF.

[BOTT]

I think he may be better suited to college where 'upper management' basically givesyou complete control....you can Lord over your players and you can be a little crazy and get away with it becauseyou're not dealing with adults/....as somebody who likes the Bears and the Raiders...I/m glad he's not going to coach either one

A bears and Riaders fan who wants to pass on a coach with Harbaugh's resume......priceless.

[BloodyChamp]

The niners have a great blend of vet and young talent. Not sure what their cap situation is heading into next year but they are by far the best HC position for any potential candidate.

No they don't...smh...and they'll all be a year older next.

[Superman]

No they don't...smh...and they'll all be a year older next.

 

Everyone in the NFL will be a year older next year...

[BloodyChamp]

Everyone in the NFL will be a year older next year...

And who do you think it will impact the most Richard Sherman or Vernon Davis?

[Superman]

And who do you think it will impact the most Richard Sherman or Vernon Davis?

 

Why is that relevant? Not only is that an apples to corkscrews comparison, but the Seahawks job isn't open.

[BloodyChamp]

Why is that relevant? Not only is that an apples to corkscrews comparison, but the Seahawks job isn't open.

You brought "everyone in the NFL" into it, so I compared 2 guys from the biggest rivalry in the division who have played right across from each other 1 on 1 before. You could almost cherry pick guys from the Seahawks to be guys from the 49ers at this point which has to do with the decline of the 49ers talent with age more than coaching.

[rsrobinson]

Everyone in the NFL will be a year older next year...

Actually the goal for NFL teams is to NOT get a year older every year. The 49ers had a disastrous draft in 2012 and not a single player from it is left in the organization. The 2013 draft hasn't been great either so far outside of Eric Reid. The 49ers are getting diminishing returns from their aging vets and haven't drafted enough good young players to replace them.

The Seahawks, by contrast, actually got younger this year. Their average age for the Super Bowl was 25.79 while the average age of their roster at the beginning of this season was 25.64.

[Superman]

Actually the goal for NFL teams is to NOT get a year older every year. The 49ers had a disastrous draft in 2012 and not a single player from it is left in the organization. The 2013 draft hasn't been great either so far outside of Eric Reid. The 49ers are getting diminishing returns from their aging vets and haven't drafted enough good young players to replace them.

 

Meh. Not a good draft in 2012, but they still have the most talented overall roster of the five teams with coaching vacancies. I don't think it's even close. 

 

Willis and Bowman being out in 2014 hurts. Aldon Smith missed a lot of time. They had other injuries. 

[Superman]

You brought "everyone in the NFL" into it, so I compared 2 guys from the biggest rivalry in the division who have played right across from each other 1 on 1 before. You could almost cherry pick guys from the Seahawks to be guys from the 49ers at this point which has to do with the decline of the 49ers talent with age more than coaching.

 

Aren't we talking about the most attractive job openings?

[BloodyChamp]

I said that the 49ers are doomed because of age and were never *that* talented to begin with. I don't know where coaching came from that.

[southwest1]

I'm going to express what will likely be a very non-PC opinion.

 

I think teams and fans that judge purely on titles are foolish.  Are titles important, no doubt.   Are the the ultimate goal, no doubt.  Are they easy to obtain, obviously not.  Judging a QB or a coach only by the final destination completely discounts the number and impact of injuries (yes, they do make a difference).  While not the "ultimate" achievement, going deep in the playoffs is something only the best teams do.  It takes luck to make the Super Bowl and sometimes luck to win the Super Bowl.  It also takes talent, and talent that performs up to their potential.

 

An old saying that is very true:  "When you win (as a coach or a qb) you get more credit than you deserve and when you lose you take more blame than you deserve."

 

If a well-coached team has one team member that makes a bone-headed play that costs a championship, some of you would blame the coach.  The coach gets a team prepared to play but the humanity of the player can blow the opportunity.  I think it was 2006, AFC Championship round between the Chargers and the Patriots.  Chargers make an interception that could seal the game and a player who shall never be named decides to run the ball out of the end zone and fumbles it back to the Patriots who go on to win the game and go to the Super Bowl.  That situation had been very recently discussed by the coaches with the team.  The player didn't stop and draw on the coaching he had been given and he cost a potential SB appearance.  Coaches are not Gods, they're mentors.  The ultimate competitor is the player(s).  

 

If a team makes the playoffs consistently and goes past the first round on a consistent basis, I believe you are foolish to tear up an organization rather than tweak it.  

 

A coach is only going to be as good as the players the front office procures for him.  A great coach can be hampered by a poor GM or owner.  I don't know enough about SF to know how their drafts have gone and what he had to work with.  It seems like a philosophical difference/personality difference is the main issue.  Not sure firing the coach in that circumstance is what needs to happen *See Marty Schottenheimer & AJ Smith feud*

 

Look at the statistics of teams that routinely replace coaching staffs, it's really bad.  Look at the Raiders as a prime example, 20 years of the merry-go-round has left them deep in the wilderness.  

Nicely written post GAFT! What I highlighted in your reply are my 3 favorite parts BTW. Marty should have never been fired with a 14-2 record as the Chargers HC. I'm still scratching my head over that one even today. 

 

I have no idea why you'd put title games they "reached" into quotes?     They reached 3 straight title games -- period.

 

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make?   

 

Those three straight title games were in his first three years.    Wouldn't Colts fans be thrilled with Chuck Pagano if he had taken the Colts to three straight title games in his first three years?      And if Pagano got run out of town after that,  wouldn't the fan base here be furious?

 

Harbaugh was hugely successful for three seasons.    And yet he started year 4 with reports that he had to win a Super Bowl or else he'd likely be gone.     Who in the world does business that way?

 

He's a royal pain in the behind.    But Harbaugh is an outstanding coach.    He just burns out everyone he deals with.   Players, fellow coaches,  administrators,  and even those he works for like his GM and owner.    He's got a short shelf-life.

 

But his run in SF was terrific.      I'm not sure how anyone argues otherwise.......

Love what you wrote NCF. An outstanding, pain in the butt football coach. I heard reporter Michael Silver call Harbaugh "an epic fail" in a video segment he did for NFL Network. Are you kidding me with that nonsense? SMH at people who call Jim a failure simply because he never brought home a Championship to San Francisco.  

 

Reminds me of Parcells and the way he left the Pats ...

Does that mean you liked Parcells or are indifferent about him & what he did in 1996 for NE? I'm only asking for clarification AMF my friend that's all. Thank you. 

[amfootball]

Nicely written post GAFT! What I highlighted in your reply are my 3 favorite parts BTW. Marty should have never been fired with a 14-2 record as the Chargers HC. I'm still scratching my head over that one even today. 

 

Love what you wrote NCF. An outstanding, pain in the butt football coach. I heard reporter Michael Silver call Harbaugh "an epic fail" in a video segment he did for NFL Network. Are you kidding me with that nonsense? SMH at people who call Jim a failure simply because he never brought home a Championship to San Francisco.  

 

Does that mean you liked Parcells or are indifferent about him & what he did in 1996 for NE? I'm only asking for clarification AMF my friend that's all. Thank you. 

I like Parcells but was disappointed in the way that he left.

[amfootball]

I said that the 49ers are doomed because of age and were never *that* talented to begin with. I don't know where coaching came from that.

I had said the niners job was the most attractive (post #56)  and then you quoted me and went on about how lousy their team is ...

[BloodyChamp]

I had said the niners job was the most attractive (post #56) and then you quoted me and went on about how lousy their team is ...

You quoted me first...where I said the 49ers are doomed smh

[Synthetic]

You judge coaches success by QB's?

 

The last 3 SB's have been won by "mediocre" and "bad" quarterbacks. Flacco, Eli, and Russell Wilson. No one ever puts them in the top 5 to drool at over inflated stats that really mean absolutely nothing when you can't win a Super Bowl, and the three golden boys will go down in history as the kings of mega stats in years they didn't get a ring.

 

 

That team is going to be nothing without Harbaugh. That is success to get to three consecutive NFC Championships, and a Super Bowl.

 

Before he arrived, they had no idea how to play like a team. They came together under him.

 

The 49ers are nuts to get rid of him. In 2011, that defense was quite possibly the best defense in the past 5 years. They had issues in 2012 that were exploited, last year, they still looked good but had problems...even this year, despite a bad year, the defense still is sharp.

 

Unless they land a great coach who is defensive minded, and one that goes back to running the ball, I am positive to say they just sold the rights to the NFC West to the Seahawks for the next 5 years at least.

 

They should call Rex Ryan. If he had that kind of defense, they would be a serious threat.

 

You don't need a super quarterback to win a Super Bowl. Last year you seen the so called greatest quarterback ever who spent the entire season running up stats to satisfy his inflated ego, and in the big one, his team couldn't put up more than 8 points. Everyone forgets that over 70% of all bets on the house were on Denver too. People give Seattle's defense credit now. But before that Super Bowl? Nope, and I'm guilty of it too.

 

It takes a team to win a Super Bowl. Not the quarterback. The three golden boys, Brady, Manning, and Brees prove this. None of them will win another Super Bowl either unless they have an amazing team on both sides of the ball. The 2012 49ers had issues as a team. They had games where their defense got absolutely destroyed, including that one game where the robot in Atlanta put up big numbers and points on them. That performance against Atlanta alone, showed they had issues going into the SB.

[amfootball]

You quoted me first...where I said the 49ers are doomed smh

Yes. And it was that post where I said they were the best spot for a HC candidate. You had asked where the discussion had come from so I was just pointing out that I was the one that originally brought it up.

 

If they hire Josh McDaniels though I will agree with you that they are doomed ...

[amfootball]

You judge coaches success by QB's?

 

The last 3 SB's have been won by "mediocre" and "bad" quarterbacks. Flacco, Eli, and Russell Wilson. No one ever puts them in the top 5 to drool at over inflated stats that really mean absolutely nothing when you can't win a Super Bowl, and the three golden boys will go down in history as the kings of mega stats in years they didn't get a ring.

 

 

That team is going to be nothing without Harbaugh. That is success to get to three consecutive NFC Championships, and a Super Bowl.

 

Before he arrived, they had no idea how to play like a team. They came together under him.

 

The 49ers are nuts to get rid of him. In 2011, that defense was quite possibly the best defense in the past 5 years. They had issues in 2012 that were exploited, last year, they still looked good but had problems...even this year, despite a bad year, the defense still is sharp.

 

Unless they land a great coach who is defensive minded, and one that goes back to running the ball, I am positive to say they just sold the rights to the NFC West to the Seahawks for the next 5 years at least.

 

They should call Rex Ryan. If he had that kind of defense, they would be a serious threat.

 

You don't need a super quarterback to win a Super Bowl. Last year you seen the so called greatest quarterback ever who spent the entire season running up stats to satisfy his inflated ego, and in the big one, his team couldn't put up more than 8 points. Everyone forgets that over 70% of all bets on the house were on Denver too. People give Seattle's defense credit now. But before that Super Bowl? Nope, and I'm guilty of it too.

 

It takes a team to win a Super Bowl. Not the quarterback. The three golden boys, Brady, Manning, and Brees prove this. None of them will win another Super Bowl either unless they have an amazing team on both sides of the ball. The 2012 49ers had issues as a team. They had games where their defense got absolutely destroyed, including that one game where the robot in Atlanta put up big numbers and points on them. That performance against Atlanta alone, showed they had issues going into the SB.

The niners struggled as much as they did this season in large part due to Kaepernick's regression.

[BloodyChamp]

Yes. And it was that post where I said they were the best spot for a HC candidate. You had asked where the discussion had come from so I was just pointing out that I was the one that originally brought it up.

If they hire Josh McDaniels though I will agree with you that they are doomed ...

There were no quote blocks in my first message and I asked no questions. I still think you and ramjackson are having some kind of contest.

[amfootball]

There were no quote blocks in my first message and I asked no questions. I still think you and ramjackson are having some kind of contest.

huh? I never said you did. You made your point about the niners being lousy and I dovetailed on that saying that they are the most attractive team for the HC prospects. You took it from there ...

 

Not sure why you keep bringing up Ram. I don't believe football is fixed. He does.

[Shane Bond]

You judge coaches success by QB's?

The last 3 SB's have been won by "mediocre" and "bad" quarterbacks. Flacco, Eli, and Russell Wilson. No one ever puts them in the top 5 to drool at over inflated stats that really mean absolutely nothing when you can't win a Super Bowl, and the three golden boys will go down in history as the kings of mega stats in years they didn't get a ring.

That team is going to be nothing without Harbaugh. That is success to get to three consecutive NFC Championships, and a Super Bowl.

Before he arrived, they had no idea how to play like a team. They came together under him.

The 49ers are nuts to get rid of him. In 2011, that defense was quite possibly the best defense in the past 5 years. They had issues in 2012 that were exploited, last year, they still looked good but had problems...even this year, despite a bad year, the defense still is sharp.

Unless they land a great coach who is defensive minded, and one that goes back to running the ball, I am positive to say they just sold the rights to the NFC West to the Seahawks for the next 5 years at least.

They should call Rex Ryan. If he had that kind of defense, they would be a serious threat.

You don't need a super quarterback to win a Super Bowl. Last year you seen the so called greatest quarterback ever who spent the entire season running up stats to satisfy his inflated ego, and in the big one, his team couldn't put up more than 8 points. Everyone forgets that over 70% of all bets on the house were on Denver too. People give Seattle's defense credit now. But before that Super Bowl? Nope, and I'm guilty of it too.

It takes a team to win a Super Bowl. Not the quarterback. The three golden boys, Brady, Manning, and Brees prove this. None of them will win another Super Bowl either unless they have an amazing team on both sides of the ball. The 2012 49ers had issues as a team. They had games where their defense got absolutely destroyed, including that one game where the robot in Atlanta put up big numbers and points on them. That performance against Atlanta alone, showed they had issues going into the SB.

I would take Russel Wilson over your wannabe golden boy Brees any day.

There are only 2 golden boys in football. Manning and Brady. It's not about rings, it's about how consistent they are year in and year out for over 15 years.

Show me a year where they had a losing season in the last 10 years. They are contenders every year. Look at your boy's team record in the last 2 years.

[Vance]

Is this a trick question?

 

Yes.

[BloodyChamp]

I had said the niners job was the most attractive (post #56) and then you quoted me and went on about how lousy their team is ...

[amfootball]

You're just as delusional as he is.

About what? Disagreeing with you? He only talks about the NFL being fixed. I never have or will.