Luck is Regressing Under this Regime

[Iancolts]

I don't think we are over reacting in any way just our opinion. I can see why people say when we win the boards are full of topics of how good we are etc... But from what I've seen so far from our beloved colts is we are at a stand still with Luck. Our defense is no where near it should be with all the cap space we had. Our offense is a copy cat of Stanford/49ers. We are who we are!!!

[theomaestro]

They are actually doing exactly that, trying to build the offense around Luck's biggest strengths, which are his mobility and play-action passing.  Play-action passing isn't going to work without a viable running game, and as we saw last year with the final 4 teams, 3 of the 4 made it there on the back of their running game.  Denver was the only team in that final 4 that got there by being a spread, air it out type of offense.

 

Also, why would Pagano (a defensive minded coach) be responsible for developing Luck?  Do you think Dungy was responsible for Manning's development?  Um, no.  That would have been the QB coach, which early in his career was Bruce Arians, and the OC Tom Moore.  So it would/should be Pep and Christiansen (who I would have no problem replacing) responsible for Luck's development, although Luck himself plays a major part in that also.  

 

 

He hadn't had much control in years 1 or 2, but most rookie QB's and 2nd year QB's don't have much, if any control of the offense.  There was talk all offseason though about how that was going to change this year, and so far Luck has been making adjustments and calling audibles at the LOS in both games.  So, I think you are incorrect.

 

 

Since coming to the Colts, Grigson has spent the following draft picks on the OL: a 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 2 x 7th round picks.  So they are only missing a 1, a 5 and a 6 in order to have spent a whole draft on the OL, but they did use 2 7's so I'm just going to cancel out the 6.  So that leaves a 1 and a 5.  There have only been 2 first round picks selected by Grigson; Luck and Werner.  No way were they going to spend the 2012 1st rounder on anyone other than Luck.  In 2013, there was not an Offensive lineman even close to being the best player available at that time.  Some people would say Larry Warford, but he wasn't selected until the 3rd round so that would tend to make me think that no team had a 1st or 2nd round grade on him.

 

However, there have been plenty of FA offensive linemen brought in as well so they should more than cancel out the 2 picks that are missing to fulfill your request of spending an entire draft on the OL.  What do you know?  Apparently the problem isn't as easy to fix as you thought. ;)

You miss the point. Pagano is the HEAD COACH. If anything is wrong it falls on him. He hired his assistants and he should replace them if they are not getting the job done. His job will eventually be the one on the line. I didn't think Pagano would last four years when he was hired, rebuilding coaches rarely do but those two 11-5 seasons kept him in a job. Let him slip for a year or two and Andrew not start moving toward being a top five QB in the NFL and he will be gone. I will be surprised if he lasts more than two years now.

[chrisfarley]

Andrew Luck is a guy that has always reminded me of a faster, more talented Ben Roethlisberger. Big, mobile, hard to tackle, and makes good throws/runs on the fly. Creative, ballsy, moves the chains. Exciting to watch. Innovative. He even makes tackles when needed. Moves fast. Elusive.

 

This regime has turned our franchise player into a bland, "game manager" type of QB. He's pretty boring to watch now. These geniuses are banging a round peg into a square hole and that's why Luck looks bad this year as compared to last year and even his rookie year. These bozos in charge are wasting his young NFL years.

 

/His hard-count is better...but overall play has regressed big time. That is NOT acceptable.

 

I will say that it's night and day from the Arians era. (too short of an era)

[Jason_]

You miss the point. Pagano is the HEAD COACH. If anything is wrong it falls on him. He hired his assistants and he should replace them if they are not getting the job done. His job will eventually be the one on the line. I didn't think Pagano would last four years when he was hired, rebuilding coaches rarely do but those two 11-5 seasons kept him in a job. Let him slip for a year or two and Andrew not start moving toward being a top five QB in the NFL and he will be gone. I will be surprised if he lasts more than two years now.

 

 

Here's the thing, it's far too early to tell if the assistants aren't getting the job done.  And personally I'd find it hard to blame any of them for Luck's lack of progression.  He's a smart enough guy, he already knows what his issues are...no one can forcibly fix those issues for him.  The coaches and Hasselbeck can help tell him and show him how to fix the issues in his game, but ultimately it's up to him to put those changes into action on the field.

[theomaestro]

Here's the thing, it's far too early to tell if the assistants aren't getting the job done.  And personally I'd find it hard to blame any of them for Luck's lack of progression.  He's a smart enough guy, he already knows what his issues are...no one can forcibly fix those issues for him.  The coaches and Hasselbeck can help tell him and show him how to fix the issues in his game, but ultimately it's up to him to put those changes into action on the field.

If what you say is true then he isn't what all of us think he is and he will never get a whole lot better than he is now which means he never approached Manning and Brady territory. That may actually be the case but I am not ready to give up on him improving yet.

[Superman]

If what you say is true then he isn't what all of us think he is and he will never get a whole lot better than he is now which means he never approached Manning and Brady territory. That may actually be the case but I am not ready to give up on him improving yet.

 

Did you watch Manning's third year?

[theomaestro]

Did you watch Manning's third year?

I did but I always thought that he was improving. Perhaps my memory of those years has faded a bit in light of the success he has had since then.

[Luck2Wayne12]

Luck has sucked this year but let's quit the "regressing" talk until we've seen a larger sample size of games.

 

Players go through bad stretches... it happens...

 

It doesn't mean he has regressed.

[Superman]

I did but I always thought that he was improving. Perhaps my memory of those years has faded a bit in light of the success he has had since then.

 

Have you determined, through two games in 2014, that Luck isn't improving? Why don't we just pump the breaks on these snap determinations, lurching from one extreme to the other every week?

 

Coincidentally, the Colts played the Jags in Week 3 in Manning's third year. Manning went off. Let's see how Luck plays Sunday (and the rest of the year, for that matter).

[Jason_]

If what you say is true then he isn't what all of us think he is and he will never get a whole lot better than he is now which means he never approached Manning and Brady territory. That may actually be the case but I am not ready to give up on him improving yet.

 

You're right, he may not ever get to Manning/Brady level.  In fact I think the odds are strongly against him ever reaching that level.  That's not to say that he can't...he could but QB's like Manning and Brady don't grow on trees.  They are incredibly few and far between.  However, of all of the young QB's in the league today, I would definitely say Luck is one of the few that potentially could reach that level because of his intelligence and work ethic.  

 

Honestly though I think that's one of the biggest problems around here.  So many people take it for granted, just expecting that Luck will obviously reach that level because that's what all of the talking heads have been saying about him for the past few years.  That does not make it a guarantee though.  Hell, a lot of people on the forum talk as if he's already at that level.

 

 People don't see Luck progressing as quickly as they think they should and immediately blame the coaching staff.  I don't believe for a second that the coaches haven't been telling him that he needs to stop staring down receivers, stop locking in on Wayne and Hilton, scan the entire field etc.  These were things that Arians had said Luck needed to work on in Luck's rookie year.  Luck has to know what he needs to work on so it's ultimately up to him to make the changes on the field.  

 

I'm not down on Luck at all, and if anything I've said has come across that I am then I apologize because that's not true.  I'm simply not as high on him as many appear to be and I have no problem admitting that he's part of the problem right now.  I'm sure he will get better but he's going to have some rough patches along the way...and that doesn't by any means make him a bad QB, it just makes him human.

[Superman]

 I'm sure he will get better but he's going to have some rough patches along the way...and that doesn't by any means make him a bad QB, it just makes him human.

 

It makes him just like every other QB, including the very best QBs.

[BlueShoe]

You miss the point. Pagano is the HEAD COACH. If anything is wrong it falls on him. He hired his assistants and he should replace them if they are not getting the job done. His job will eventually be the one on the line. I didn't think Pagano would last four years when he was hired, rebuilding coaches rarely do but those two 11-5 seasons kept him in a job. Let him slip for a year or two and Andrew not start moving toward being a top five QB in the NFL and he will be gone. I will be surprised if he lasts more than two years now.

 

I disagree.

You have to do me a huge favor, before you flame out on this board. The two sections that I have highlighted and in bold; I need you to make a new topic and name the topic something in regards to how long Pagano will last as the head coach. Then give your thoughts on it. Don't go over board though man. We don't want the Mods locking it. I need it to be open so I can bump it every few months.

 

It is not really asking that much of you, since you will be surprised if Pagano makes it more than 4 total years anyway.

 

Thanks. 

[theomaestro]

I disagree.

You have to do me a huge favor, before you flame out on this board. The two sections that I have highlighted and in bold; I need you to make a new topic and name the topic something in regards to how long Pagano will last as the head coach. Then give your thoughts on it. Don't go over board though man. We don't want the Mods locking it. I need it to be open so I can bump it every few months.

 

It is not really asking that much of you, since you will be surprised if Pagano make it more than 4 total years anyway.

 

Thanks. 

I don't start topics but feel free to use the idea yourself and you are free to quote my post if you like.

[BlueShoe]

I don't start topics but feel free to use the idea yourself and you are free to quote my post if you like.

 

That is not how a commitment works Ese?

 

You either believe in the words you have written or you don't. 

[theomaestro]

That is not how a commitment works Ese?

 

You either believe in the words you have written or you don't. 

It is my opinion but I believe I am right but that doesn't mean that I want to start a thread about it. If you want one, start it yourself.

[BlueShoe]

It is my opinion but I believe I am right but that doesn't mean that I want to start a thread about it. If you want one, start it yourself.

 

It is not my idea. It is your idea. 

 

Even though I strongly disagree with you, I think more people should know about your ideas. 

 

But what I am really hearing from you is you are not sure what you believe.

[theomaestro]

It is not my idea. It is your idea. 

 

Even though I strongly disagree with you, I think more people should know about your ideas. 

 

But what I am really hearing from you is you are not sure what you believe.

No, you didn't hear that. You just heard that I don't start threads.

[BlueShoe]

No, you didn't hear that. You just heard that I don't start threads.

 

I am sure you have enough posts by now. You have a whole 28. 

[theomaestro]

I am sure you have enough posts by now. You have a whole 28. 

My number of posts have nothing to do with it. I don't think the subject warrants a thread even though I believe I am correct. You won't goad me into it so begone Mr. Troll.

[BlueShoe]

My number of posts have nothing to do with it. I don't think the subject warrants a thread even though I believe I am correct. You won't goad me into it so begone Mr. Troll.

 

You don't think a subject where you claim that Pagano will not last 4 total years as the Colts head coach deserves its own thread? 

 

If you truly believed in your words then you would have no issues making a new thread about it. Trust me, that thread would become much bigger than this thread.

 

I think you are scared of what people might say.

[theomaestro]

You don't think a subject where you claim that Pagano will not last 4 total years as the Colts head coach deserves its own thread? 

 

If you truly believed in your words then you would have no issues making a new thread about it. Trust me, that thread would become much bigger than this thread.

 

I think you are scared of what people might say.

Actually, I could give a rat's behind about what anyone might say and that includes you. It is just my opinion and that is all that it is. I don't care about it enough to start a thread. You are the one who wants to start a thread so do it and I gave you permission to quote me. What you are doing now is an attempt to badger me and that isn't going to work so give it up.

[BlueShoe]

Actually, I could give a rat's behind about what anyone might say and that includes you. It is just my opinion and that is all that it is. I don't care about it enough to start a thread. You are the one who wants to start a thread so do it and I gave you permission to quote me. What you are doing now is an attempt to badger me and that isn't going to work so give it up.

 

So in other words, you don't really believe half the crap that you say. Got it. I thought we would end up here, but wanted to make sure. 

[Flash7]

Here's an article that sums up how I feel about our passing attack:

 

http://coltsauthority.com/2014-articles/guest-post-dink-n-dunk-statistically-analyzing-the-colts-passing-game.html

 

It points out, with statistical analysis, how badly we are misusing our offensive weapons.

[Jason_]

Here's an article that sums up how I feel about our passing attack:

 

http://coltsauthority.com/2014-articles/guest-post-dink-n-dunk-statistically-analyzing-the-colts-passing-game.html

 

It points out, with statistical analysis, how badly we are misusing our offensive weapons.

 

Not really.  The only statistic that reflected anything regarding Pep is the snap count for each player. However, he admits the reason for Doyle getting so many snaps...the run game.  However, his conclusion from that is incorrect.  

 

 

 

And don’t misunderstand me, I know why Doyle played more snaps. Unbalanced line, establish the run, manage the clock etc etc. But it didn’t work. We lost the game.

 

Yes, it did work.  The unbalanced line worked for the majority of plays it was used in, they were able to establish the run game and run up 169 yards rushing as a matter of fact, and that helped to manage the clock because I don't think Philly ran nearly as many plays as they normally do (could be wrong on that though).  Those were not the reasons the Colts lost the game.

 

The statistics used to show the depth of Luck's passing attempts and the number of targets for each player do not directly reflect what Pep Hamilton wants.  Pep isn't telling Luck who to throw the ball to on every play.  Sure, there is a progression of the reads for each play but that does not mean that Luck is going through the progressions fully nor in order.  On a given play, Allen could be the primary receiver but if there's any kind of quick pressure then Luck may very well scrap the progression order for that particular play and look immediately in Wayne's direction.

 

No one outside of the team is going to know what the proper progression of reads are on a given play, so the author is making a lot of assumptions and directing most of the fault, not surprisingly, at Pep.

[Flash7]

Not really.  The only statistic that reflected anything regarding Pep is the snap count for each player. However, he admits the reason for Doyle getting so many snaps...the run game.  However, his conclusion from that is incorrect.  

 

 

Yes, it did work.  The unbalanced line worked for the majority of plays it was used in, they were able to establish the run game and run up 169 yards rushing as a matter of fact, and that helped to manage the clock because I don't think Philly ran nearly as many plays as they normally do (could be wrong on that though).  Those were not the reasons the Colts lost the game.

 

The statistics used to show the depth of Luck's passing attempts and the number of targets for each player do not directly reflect what Pep Hamilton wants.  Pep isn't telling Luck who to throw the ball to on every play.  Sure, there is a progression of the reads for each play but that does not mean that Luck is going through the progressions fully nor in order.  On a given play, Allen could be the primary receiver but if there's any kind of quick pressure then Luck may very well scrap the progression order for that particular play and look immediately in Wayne's direction.

 

No one outside of the team is going to know what the proper progression of reads are on a given play, so the author is making a lot of assumptions and directing most of the fault, not surprisingly, at Pep.

I agree with some of your points, and can see your side of the argument, however, I think you and I see the Eagles game differently.

 

In my opinion, there was a definite emphasis on controlling the clock, which included running the ball and focusing on short possession-retaining passes. This was the game plan, not just Luck reacting. We saw this right away in the first quarter with many bubble screen passes to the receivers, and failed screen passes to the RBs. In my opinion, we played SCARED. We were scared that our defense would be gassed and let up too many points, so our offense had to compensate for our defense. HORRIBLE idea, IMO.

 

I would argue that with our offensive personnel, we could easily be just as imposing to defenses, if not more, than the Eagles. We just need the offensive coordinator to want to do this. The Eagles offense dictated the game. Our offense was reactionary, and given our offensive personnel, it was a shame.

[JoKeR]

I find it funny people still don't think he gives through his progressions, I want the helmet cam footage they have because Chucky showed a video package of Luck going through multiple progressions to find the open man.

[Jason_]

I find it funny people still don't think he gives through his progressions, I want the helmet cam footage they have because Chucky showed a video package of Luck going through multiple progressions to find the open man.

Only speaking for myself and not anyone else who's said the same thing....I don't think that luck never goes through his progressions. I just think he's very inconsistent at it. At times, yes you can see him scan the field, but plenty of other times it's easy to see him lock onto someone, typically Wayne or hilton, and not even look in any other direction, even at times where he's had protection.

[B~Town]

I find it funny people still don't think he gives through his progressions, I want the helmet cam footage they have because Chucky showed a video package of Luck going through multiple progressions to find the open man.

Interesting I find it funny people think he is you can see him starring down Hilton or Wayne on many plays with other players wide open then forces the ball into coverage . A perfect example our last play on offence in the Eagles game Nicks was wide open for the first but Luck still forced the ball into tight coverage .  I know it's not going to happen but I would love to see Nicks Moncrief and Rogers play a few snaps together so he doesn't have his go to guy making him survey the whole field . I think some of it this season is he's trying to take less hits and get the ball out faster something I'm sure the coaches have been working on and he's trying to adjust to it .

[YOUR GM]

So in other words, you don't really believe half the crap that you say. Got it. I thought we would end up here, but wanted to make sure. 

 

Stop being a troll. You're basically asking him to start a thread to stir up controversy, and if he doesn't, he somehow isn't standing behind his own opinions?... You're being silly right now 

[BlueShoe]

Stop being a troll. You're basically asking him to start a thread to stir up controversy, and if he doesn't, he somehow isn't standing behind his own opinions?... You're being silly right now 

 

I totally understand what happened here, and you do not. After he thought about what he said, then he changed his mind.

 

Next time he will probably think about it first. My job here is done. 

[YOUR GM]

I totally understand what happened here, and you do not. After he thought about what he said, then he changed his mind.

Next time he will probably think about it first. My job here is done.

If you say so

[jskinnz]

I totally understand what happened here, and you do not. After he thought about what he said, then he changed his mind.

 

Next time he will probably think about it first. My job here is done.

You have not distinguished yourself in this thread. In fact I would say that you were a complete troll and accomplished nothing close to whatever it is you think you did. The notion that the guy has to start a thread to prove his beliefs is beyond silly.

[BlueShoe]

You have not distinguished yourself in this thread. In fact I would say that you were a complete troll and accomplished nothing close to whatever it is you think you did. The notion that the guy has to start a thread to prove his beliefs is beyond silly.

 

I really do not care what you think. To be honest. I don't even like you.

[jskinnz]

I really do not care what you think. To be honest. I don't even like you.

Armed with this information, I wonder how I will sleep tonight.

[BlueShoe]

Armed with this information, I wonder how I will sleep tonight.

 

Well I would tell you that I hope you get some sleep, but the truth is, I really don't care. Even if you don't wake up tomorrow, my life won't change one bit. 

[jskinnz]

Well I would tell you that I hope you get some sleep, but the truth is, I really don't care. Even if you don't wake up tomorrow, my life won't change one bit.

So you are hoping for my untimely demise this evening? That seems harsh.

[BlueShoe]

So you are hoping for my untimely demise this evening? That seems harsh.

 

Not hoping anything. I just don't care. It would not impact my mood either way. 

 

It would be as if it never happened, because nothing in my world would change. 

[BrentMc11]

I find it funny people still don't think he gives through his progressions, I want the helmet cam footage they have because Chucky showed a video package of Luck going through multiple progressions to find the open man.

Yes he did JoKeR!!!

[theomaestro]

I totally understand what happened here, and you do not. After he thought about what he said, then he changed his mind.

 

Next time he will probably think about it first. My job here is done. 

I haven't changed my mind about anything. Let me help you with that. I didn't think Pagano would last more than three years when he was hired because coaches in rebuilding situations rarely do. However, those back to back 11 win years changed that but if they team comes down to earth and finishes at .500 or a little below, I think he will be gone in the next two years. That is just my opinion and nothing you said changed that at all.

[BlueShoe]

I haven't changed my mind about anything. Let me help you with that. I didn't think Pagano would last more than three years when he was hired because coaches in rebuilding situations rarely do. However, those back to back 11 win years changed that but if they team comes down to earth and finishes at .500 or a little below, I think he will be gone in the next two years. That is just my opinion and nothing you said changed that at all.

 

It appears that I was right about you. To be honest, I was not 100% sure, but I thought you were here to troll. I wanted to give you every opportunity to prove me wrong about that. I am not sure what happened either last night or early this morning, but for some reason you have been banned.