Grigson: "2013 draft picks are work in progress"

[Mameluc]

The division sucks right now and we should easily win it again which means we will be picking late again next year.

I picture it being like when Peyton was here and we consistently make the playoffs, which means we will always be picking late.

Grigson isnt gonna get early picks anytime soon. He has to find players who can contribute right away. You can't have a roster full of projects and mediocre free agents.

If you want a certain position filled and the player isnt there then you trade down or just accept that the highest guy on your board would be too big of a reach and take someone at a different position.

Werner was a reach, maybe he will pan out, but he was still a reach.

This year we won't be picking until almost the 3rd round, so I dont know what Grigson will do. I doubt there will be many starters left by then.

The Richardson trade hurts us, I know some of you think he will be good, which is highly debatable, but either way it hurts the draft.

So if the 2013 players dont come on strong this season then I would consider Grigson a fool. Because that will be back to back drafts where he has dropped the ball.

Grigson has 2 hopes right now, that Richardson somehow becomes something more then the complete failure he was last season and that the 2013 draft players contribute. If neither happens then personally I would like to see them pack up his executive of the year award for him and send him down the road.

Nobody wants a repeat of the Chris Polian years. Grogsons job is to find and sign talent, if he is having a hard time doing it then send him packing. If a player has a great season then 2 lousy ones most fans would call for his head, the same is usually said for coaches, GM's should really be no different.

a reach? position reach? because if you are talking about talent he was a 1st round talent.

[Gavin]

why would we line up him to a speedy player? All i saw last season were he actually dropped in coverage was the same play where he linedup infront of the G/C pretending to be rushing only to fall back and play Zone coverage.

We lined Linebackers up on a slot receiver on some instances last season

[Mameluc]

We lined Linebackers up on a slot receiver on some instances last season

i dont doubt it. My point is, i dont think the team is trying to line him up vs a WR. So i dont think it matter much hsi hip flexibility vs a WR. i guess as long as he can play his part on zone coverage and maybe get on the face of a TE every now on then when they are releasing they wont be expecting much more of him in that area.

[Gavin]

i dont doubt it. My point is, i dont think the team is trying to line him up vs a WR. So i dont think it matter much hsi hip flexibility vs a WR. i guess as long as he can play his part on zone coverage and maybe get on the face of a TE every now on then when they are releasing they wont be expecting much more of him in that area.

Well it matters when they drop him back in that short zone not vs a wr but when a wr crosses in his area, also when running backs are running right at him, Thats when it matters, Thats why so many talk about it at the Combine and ssuch

[DougDew]

Werner fell to 24. He was not a reach. He is a project in the sense of learning 34 positional skills.

Who does Walden or Mathis typically cover, since that's who he rotates with? A scat-back, a WR? a TE? No big-enough OLB is going to reliably cover one of those players man-on-man on a consistent basis

Edit: Gavin, I see your post and that is a good point. But instincts and awareness can make up for some athletic limitations (although he is pretty athletic). Hopefully, Werner can recognize the route runner coming at him quicker than most. That's the "project" part that I think we are all talking about. And the coaches seem to think he has great natural awareness and vision, just not a lot of situational experience.

[Mameluc]

Well it matters when they drop him back in that short zone not vs a wr but when a wr crosses in his area, also when running backs are running right at him, Thats when it matters, Thats why so many talk about it at the Combine and ssuch

yes but why?  I mean, Mathis sucks also on space covering people  but we dont care cause we barely use him there...the same with Werner, we barely use him as player on space...so what if he is not good at it?

 

Seriously, how many times did he dropped in coverage this season? like 15?

[dudeski]

Names or STHU

are you saying they were good pickups?

[Jason_]

yes but why?  I mean, Mathis sucks also on space covering people  but we dont care cause we barely use him there...the same with Werner, we barely use him as player on space...so what if he is not good at it?

 

Seriously, how many times did he dropped in coverage this season? like 15?

 

Also, he dropped into coverage more than he should have since he was playing SamLB more often than RushLB.

[Jaric]

are you saying they were good pickups?

I'm saying if you want to have any credibility when you argue "he should have picked someone better!" You need to include names of players who were available that would have been a better option than what we did do.

[Jason_]

I'm saying if you want to have any credibility when you argue "he should have picked someone better!" You need to include names of players who were available that would have been a better option than what we did do.

 

he doesn't

[dudeski]

I'm saying if you want to have any credibility when you argue "he should have picked someone better!" You need to include names of players who were available that would have been a better option than what we did do.

not really. Mcglynn has always been trash and should never been an option.

Satele was understandable to a degree but was outplayed by Shipley and should have been cut

[Jaric]

Modern, I don't want to put words in your mouth because that's rude, but are you rejecting the idea that it's reasonable to give draft picks a year or two to develop?

[Jaric]

not really. Mcglynn has always been trash and should never been an option.

Satele was understandable to a degree but was outplayed by Shipley and should have been cut

Actually you do. Cutting players just for the sake of cutting them doesn't do anyone any good unless there is a better option out there.

It's fine to say he sucks, but if he sucks less than what's available you aren't making the team any better by cutting him.

[dudeski]

Actually you do. Cutting players just for the sake of cutting them doesn't do anyone any good unless there is a better option out there.

It's fine to say he sucks, but if he sucks less than what's available you aren't making the team any better by cutting him.

mcglynn should never have been signed

Satele was worse than Shipley. What more do you need

[Gavin]

Actually you do. Cutting players just for the sake of cutting them doesn't do anyone any good unless there is a better option out there.

It's fine to say he sucks, but if he sucks less than what's available you aren't making the team any better by cutting him.

Well there is also another side to that, If you have no other option then to get a player that you know is going to suck then you might as well get the player thats not going to cost you as much $ for sucking

[Jaric]

mcglynn should never have been signed

Satele was worse than Shipley. What more do you need

Who should they have signed instead?

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

The division sucks right now and we should easily win it again which means we will be picking late again next year.

I picture it being like when Peyton was here and we consistently make the playoffs, which means we will always be picking late.

Grigson isnt gonna get early picks anytime soon. He has to find players who can contribute right away. You can't have a roster full of projects and mediocre free agents.

If you want a certain position filled and the player isnt there then you trade down or just accept that the highest guy on your board would be too big of a reach and take someone at a different position.

Werner was a reach, maybe he will pan out, but he was still a reach.

This year we won't be picking until almost the 3rd round, so I dont know what Grigson will do. I doubt there will be many starters left by then.

The Richardson trade hurts us, I know some of you think he will be good, which is highly debatable, but either way it hurts the draft.

So if the 2013 players dont come on strong this season then I would consider Grigson a fool. Because that will be back to back drafts where he has dropped the ball.

Grigson has 2 hopes right now, that Richardson somehow becomes something more then the complete failure he was last season and that the 2013 draft players contribute. If neither happens then personally I would like to see them pack up his executive of the year award for him and send him down the road.

Nobody wants a repeat of the Chris Polian years. Grogsons job is to find and sign talent, if he is having a hard time doing it then send him packing. If a player has a great season then 2 lousy ones most fans would call for his head, the same is usually said for coaches, GM's should really be no different.

 

 

Any fool can criticize , condemn & complain & most fools do ..

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/b/benjaminfr383249.html#1Yaw3kwBHiZ07BYg.99

Edited February 25, 2014 by Superman

[Jaric]

Well there is also another side to that, If you have no other option then to get a player that you know is going to suck then you might as well get the player thats not going to cost you as much $ for sucking

Fair point.

My view of the Satele signing was this: it was a bandaid fix that had a small chance of getting a decent player at center (he was a second round pick after all). Which turns out to be pretty much exactly what it was, so I don't really take issue with it.

Now, if Satele is still our starting center in 2014...

[dudeski]

Who should they have signed instead?

anyone better

[Jaric]

anyone better

Ok so you have no idea, you just want to complain. Gotcha.

[dudeski]

Ok so you have no idea, you just want to complain. Gotcha.

it doesn't matter. Bringing in a bad player to start is a bad idea. Regardless of what I would have done

[cdgacoltsfan]

Ok so you have no idea, you just want to complain. Gotcha.

the "dude " is what I like to refer to as a "back seat driver"

[Modern]

Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain - and most fools do.

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/b/benjaminfr383249.html#1Yaw3kwBHiZ07BYg.99

Better to blindly support whoever is in power no matter how questionable their decisions are ?

I'm just a colts fan, I have no power, but my opinions are my opinions. You ain't gotta agree, in fact I would rather you didnt , because then I would doubt my own opinions.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Superman

[SteelCityColt]

it doesn't matter. Bringing in a bad player to start is a bad idea. Regardless of what I would have done

 

Having no player would be even worse. At worse Satele does at least let us make up the numbers on the field. 

 

So you going to add anything constructive to this like maybe who we should have signed or just your usual standard of contribution. It's my opinion that you offer nothing constructive to this conversation. As Plato once said.... "Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something."

 

Wow ancient philosophy, facts on the fan base of international (Association) Football and teaching you the difference between an opinion and a fact. You really are getting bang for your buck with me today . 

[gacker65]

The colts only had one OLB under contract at the time.  More importantly, the first round is reserved for drafting only a few impact POSITIONS, IMO. Those positions are: QB, WR, OLB, CB, LT, and DTorDE (these are the positions that command high salaries in free agency, if you choose that route to find one).   If I have a hole in one of those positions, yes, I would spend a low first round draft pick on one of those positions, expecting the CB, DL's, OLB, to be a player that their talent level dictates they rotate in their rookie year.   I would only draft an ILB, or a S in the first round if he was a rare talent, like Brian Urlacher.  You can get starting S, G, C, ILB's, NT's, RT's and TE's in later rounds, and save your first round picks to replace the positions that are expensive.  (1 LT, 2 CB's, 2 DL's, 2 WR's, 2 OLB's, those your first round picks in the next 9 years as veteran contracts roll off.  If your'e picking low in the round, they won't start their rookie year.)

 

This year, the colts have holes at starting ILB (Angerer is a FA) and a starting S (Bethea is a FA), possibly a starting C.  But neither POSITION is worthy of a first round pick.  I wish the colts had their low first round pick to spend on a disruptive DT/DE.  I would use the second round pick for an ILB, one with coverage skills and pass rushing skills, or my starting S.  But I would expect the DL I chose in low round 1 to be a rotational player their rookie year.

 

I agree about trading down.  If you know you could trade down and still get the same guy, you should do it.  Who knows if Grigson had that option.

I agree with some about the 1st round players to take.  The problem I have is taking a project player while having other needs ( last draft: WR, CB, C, G, DE off the top of my head).  Grigson, I believe, we had the chance to trade down with Vikings. 

[coltsfanatic24]

It usually takes a year for pass rushers and defensive linemen to make an impact on the team. Watt, Houston, and Poe were all average their rookie years but then the 2nd year you really could see the improvements. Same with Werner the instincts are there, he just has to get stronger and i think you'll see major improvements from year 1 to 2.

[Superman]

Well it matters when they drop him back in that short zone not vs a wr but when a wr crosses in his area, also when running backs are running right at him, Thats when it matters, Thats why so many talk about it at the Combine and ssuch

 

Are you kidding me? Your Rush backer doesn't need any discernible coverage ability. He just needs to be a good pass rusher and have above average athleticism. I don't care about his hips or how he looks in space, if he's an elite pass rusher. 

[Superman]

Better to blindly support whoever is in power no matter how questionable their decisions are ?

I'm just a colts fan, I have no power, but my opinions are my opinions. You ain't gotta agree, in fact I would rather you didnt , because then I would doubt my own opinions.

 

There goes the "blind support" argument again. Just as tired as the hindsight draft approach.

[gacker65]

Essentially you are saying don't draft a 3-4 OLB in the 1st Round.... ever. They all have to be converted as "projects" by your definition if you want elite physical traits.  Might as well say that you don't want elite pass rushing potential drafted in the 1st round for the scheme we are running.  That is OK if that is what you want.

 

When calling Werner a "project" player, remember that he was drafted as a rush LB skill set, not a Sam, and he is overstated as a "project" in that role.

No, I am saying never draft a project player in the 1st round unless starting line-up is set and you need depth.

 

Not what I said.  I want my 1st round pick to start and make an impact, especially when we have other needs.

 

Werner was drafted to play a position he never played (round peg, square hole) and would need time to learn new skill set.

 

If we had drafted Werner as a 4-3 DE, would have had no problem (Werner's skill set) and he probably would have mad an impact and possibly started.

 

IMO, Werner will probably be good in a few more years.

[Valpo2004]

No bones about it 2013 has not shown out to be a great draft class yet.  That having been said you have to give the players a little bit of time.  Sometimes even first rounders don't adjust right away.

 

Werner seemed to show up more at the end of the season.  

 

He had a sack in the 2nd game against Houston and a sack against KC in the regular season.

 

So I think there is a reason to believe that he may be more of a force in year 2.  

[Gavin]

Are you kidding me? Your Rush backer doesn't need any discernible coverage ability. He just needs to be a good pass rusher and have above average athleticism. I don't care about his hips or how he looks in space, if he's an elite pass rusher. 

I mean he still has to be able to make plays in space when a rb is coming his way, if you just got a guy that can be a rush backer then your still opening up gaping holes that teams would exploit, he needs to be able to read run or pass and if its run he needs to be able to make the tackle in space and that sometimes will involve having to flip his hips. if all a rush linebacker had to do was go forward every time and not worry about making a play on a rb then Micheal Sam would be a consideration in the mid rounds because thats what Same is good at, But hes not because he cant flip his hips both either to drop back or adjusting to running backs coming at him that

[TKnight24]

Some of you have this fantasy thinking that last year was a good draft class to choose from.

Didn't Dion Jordan get drafted top 10? I believe him & Werner had similar seasons.

Not every year is gonna be a home run people, & no one can name a team that had a home run draft every year

[DougDew]

I agree with some about the 1st round players to take.  The problem I have is taking a project player while having other needs ( last draft: WR, CB, C, G, DE off the top of my head).  Grigson, I believe, we had the chance to trade down with Vikings.

I feel strongly about limiting first round picks to certain positions. It will benefit a team in the long run. This year, the colts need a 34 DE/DT, an ILB, a S, and possibly a C/G. In theory, ALL of those positions are less expensive FA signings compared to pass rushing OLB, CB, and a LT. You want your 1st round picks to replace the expensive guys you would have to re-sign or find in free-agency, not the inexpensive ones.

Grigson's "project" statement does not mean he was talking about Werner. The forum just went in that direction. Personally, I think "project" is a bit harsh. Werner has some positional things to learn and needs to get stronger, but most rookies do any way. I would call Hughes a project, and his draft position reflects it.

The Vikings may have had a top 5 pick in the 2nd, but maybe NE, SF, or Seattle takes Werner and the colts lose out. Its a tough call and I don't think a clear right answer is apparent at this point.

[Superman]

I mean he still has to be able to make plays in space when a rb is coming his way, if you just got a guy that can be a rush backer then your still opening up gaping holes, he needs to be able to read run or pass and if its run he needs to be able to make the tackle in space and that sometimes will involve having to flip his hips. if all a rush linebacker had to do was go forward every time and not worry about making a play on a rb then Micheal Sam would be a consideration in the mid rounds because thats what Same is good at, But hes not because he cant flip his hips both either to drop back or adjusting to running backs coming at him that

Michael Sam is not that good of a pass rusher or athlete, not enough to make up for his deficient size.

I'm not saying that your Rush backer only has to go forward, but how he flips his hips in coverage is not a major consideration at all. You want to see him be able to move a bit, have some lateral agility and raw speed, but you're not grading him on how he'll play in space in passing situations. And even if he is sort of stiff in space, if he's a pure pass rusher, someone who can line up against good blockers and get pressure on the quarterback, he'll still be a good prospect at Rush backer.

[TKnight24]

Stats from m.espn.com

Dion Jordan: 26 tackles 2 sacks

Werner: 18 tackles 2.5 sacks

Similar numbers. Dion was drafted top 10. And add that Bjoern missed games due to injury. So I don't think Werner is a bust at all if he had similar numbers to a top 10 pick at a position he never played in his life

[Jaric]

Better to blindly support whoever is in power no matter how questionable their decisions are ?

I'm just a colts fan, I have no power, but my opinions are my opinions. You ain't gotta agree, in fact I would rather you didnt , because then I would doubt my own opinions.

JARIC CHEER COLTS!

Modern make ears sad.

[Gavin]

Michael Sam is not that good of a pass rusher or athlete, not enough to make up for his deficient size.

I'm not saying that your Rush backer only has to go forward, but how he flips his hips in coverage is not a major consideration at all. You want to see him be able to move a bit, have some lateral agility and raw speed, but you're not grading him on how he'll play in space in passing situations. And even if he is sort of stiff in space, if he's a pure pass rusher, someone who can line up against good blockers and get pressure on the quarterback, he'll still be a good prospect at Rush backer.

Right, I understand that, "flip his hips" was used wrong in the way I used it, lateral agility is a much better way of putting it actually, No question DE/OLB's with a quick first step that are a pure pass rusher would be good, What Im looking for is agility in my rush backer....In other words if your rushing and that rb is coming right at do you have loose hips...not flip them but loose enough to change direction, adjust and make the play on the ball carrier , When I watched Werner I didn't really see that, he looked stiff alot

[Jason_]

I agree with some about the 1st round players to take.  The problem I have is taking a project player while having other needs ( last draft: WR, CB, C, G, DE off the top of my head).  Grigson, I believe, we had the chance to trade down with Vikings. 

 

You're taking "project" way too literally in terms of Werner.  He was originally drafted to backup Mathis and to be a situational pass rusher as he is groomed to be Mathis' eventual replacement.  For that role, he was not a project in the slightest.  He became more of a project when they had to convert him to SamLB to be the primary backup to Walden after Sidbury got hurt.  

 

Hell, honestly I think Dontari Poe and Ziggy Ansah were more "project players" than Werner was.  Both Poe and Ansah had off the charts athleticism for guys their size but limited technique, playing experience and production at the college level.  Werner hasn't been playing football his entire life but he spent several good years at FSU being a very productive edge rusher...which is what the Colts drafted him to be.

 

The bottom line is that the biggest need at the time going into the 2013 draft was another edge rusher and Werner was easily the best edge rusher still available when the Colts went on the clock.  The argument could be made he was one of the top edge rushers in that draft period.  Many mocks had him going in the top 5-10 leading up to the draft.  Also consider the fact that, to my knowledge, the only experienced 3-4 OLB with a first round grade in that draft was Jarvis Jones and he went several picks earlier to the Steelers.  

[dudeski]

Having no player would be even worse. At worse Satele does at least let us make up the numbers on the field.

So you going to add anything constructive to this like maybe who we should have signed or just your usual standard of contribution. It's my opinion that you offer nothing constructive to this conversation. As Plato once said.... "Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something."

Wow ancient philosophy, facts on the fan base of international (Association) Football and teaching you the difference between an opinion and a fact. You really are getting bang for your buck with me today .

satele should have been at least cut for Shipley. I love repeating myself.

For mcglynn, we could have used pretty much anyone

[Superman]

Right, I understand that, "flip his hips" was used wrong in the way I used it, lateral agility is a much better way of putting it actually, No question DE/OLB's with a quick first step that are a pure pass rusher would be good, What Im looking for is agility in my rush backer....In other words if your rushing and that rb is coming right at do you have loose hips...not flip them but loose enough to change direction, adjust and make the play on the ball carrier , When I watched Werner I didn't really see that, he looked stiff alot

I agree on Werner. I didn't like him for us at #24, for a few reasons. But I'm not worried about how my projected Rush backer looks dropping into coverage and trying to stick with receivers or TEs, or coming across the field as an offensive player crosses in front of him, because I don't anticipate putting him in that position more than a couple times a game. It's great if he has that ability, but that's a bonus, not a core requirement.

Defensive linemen with little lateral agility have to chase backs in the running game. Again, agility in that regard is a bonus, not a basic requirement for a Rush backer.