Anyone interested to know what we were offered for Luck last year during the draft?

[Goodtimes]

Whatever you say, fella. Enjoy the air up there.

 

If you do the research, you will see that all of those statements are correct. Now, whether it was still the thing to do, I don't know about that. I do believe that Peyton Manning should never have worn any uniform but the Colts. I believe he thought that too. I don't if he still thinks that with a team as good as he has around him now and so many offensive weapons.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Superman

[Goodtimes]

Whatever you say, fella. Enjoy the air up there.

 

Doesn't that come very close to being a personal attack?

Edited September 20, 2013 by Superman

[Superman]

Doesn't that come very close to being a personal attack?

 

Feel free to report the post if you think it's against the rules. 

[Superman]

If you do the research, you will see that all of those statements are correct. Now, whether it was still the thing to do, I don't know about that. I do believe that Peyton Manning should never have worn any uniform but the Colts. I believe he thought that too. I don't if he still thinks that with a team as good as he has around him now and so many offensive weapons.

 

I don't really feel like having this debate, least of all with you. If you want to know what I think and feel about the Manning issue (aside from the fact that it's over and done with, and I'm not going to wallow in misery for the rest of my life over it), feel free to search the archives. I think you'll find that my opinions were many and varied on this topic.

 

You're really wearing this schtick thin. 

[BadLuck]

wth?!?!     What am I missing here?    What am I not understanding?

 

According to you,  Luck's career so far has been "pretty pitiful"...????      

 

ON WHICH PLANET??   IN WHICH PARALLEL UNIVERSE??

 

Was this supposed to sarcasm and I missed it??     I certainly hope so.....   because otherwise......

 

Holy Cow!!

 

(I look forward to your answer....   I think)

 

Did you see post #63? Where I linked to this: http://www.footballo...erceptions-2012

[NewColtsFan]

Did you see post #63? Where I linked to this: http://www.footballo...erceptions-2012

 

OK......    so you WERE indeed serious.    I was kind of hoping for sarcasm that I had somehow missed.

 

His turnovers and near turnovers and should have been turnovers lead you to call his rookie season...................................

 

"Near Pitiful"

 

Carry on.     I won't waste a minute of your time or mine trying to change your mind.     Best of luck to you....

 

Holy Cow.....        

[csmopar]

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2013/adjusted-interceptions-2012

 

"Andrew Luck led the league in dropped interceptions in 2012; in fact, dropped interceptions show that the efficiency gap between Luck and fellow rookies Robert Griffin and Russell Wilson was even larger than shown by stats like DVOA....Luck had 18 interceptions, the second-highest total in the NFL, and also had 14 dropped picks. Wilson had just 10 picks and five dropped picks, while Griffin had five of each. Luck's total of 14 dropped interceptions is the second-highest season total since 2007, behind only Mark Sanchez's 15 for 2010."

 

He's obviously lacking something. We should have kept Peyton. With Peyton, the Colts would actually stand a chance in San Fran.

 

Manning will be done in 2-3 years tops. I had hoped we could have kept peyton, but I see the reasons behind it. Luck will grow and learn from his mistakes.  I consider the fact he had so many dropped interceptions to him trying to live up to the pressure of feeling manning's shoes. Once he starts getting comfortable, I think we'll all see the talent he has. I still say we have a chance in San Fran on Sunday.

[southwest1]

For anyone interested we would have had:

 

• Round 1 Pick 3
• Round 1 Pick 22
• Round 2 Pick 2
• Round 2 Pick 5
• Round 3 Pick 1
• Round 3 Pick 24
• Round 3 Pick 29
• Round 4 Pick 5
• Round 5 Pick 1
• Round 5 Pick 25

 

And a few 6-7th rounders. Glad we didn't take it. 

 

I always appreciate your stats & information Dustin. SW1 sucks at stats & has no real skill compiling them, but I do appreciate individuals like yourself who do. It's a gift man. It's a gift. 

The 2011 Colts had big problems. The roster was depleted, the coaching staff was inept, and biggest of all, there was no quarterback. Manning was not healthy, and no one -- not even him -- knew if he was ever going to play again. The mainstream thinking in the NFL at that time was to release him and draft Andrew Luck. And that's without consideration to the money issue, which just didn't make sense at the time. 

 

The Broncos gambled on him, but they didn't give him any guaranteed money. No signing bonus, and if he had showed up to camp unable to perform, they could have released or restructured his contract. And mainstream thinking still considered it a huge gamble, because no one -- not even Manning -- knew if he'd be able to perform at a high level.

 

Your post is revisionist history, at best. In March of 2012, it did NOT make sense to guarantee an additional $28m to Manning. As much as I wanted us to keep him (and you can go scour the archives, if you want, because I was one of those who argued about how we could make it work), it didn't make financial sense, nor did it make football sense. 

Beautiful reply Superman! I love your big picture analysis. It's right on point. Bravo! 

[dudeski]

If you mean which team traded their whole draft for a player it was the bears for the spot below Edge to draft Ricky Wlliams. They traded their whole 1999 draft (1 pick in every round but the 2nd ) and their 1st and 3rd in the 2000 draft.

that was not what i meant

 

 

i read that a team offered up their draft for the #1 pick so they could take luck

[crazycolt1]

That goes against the main stream thinking in the NFL. When you think you are close to winning a Super Bowl, you go all out like Elway did for Peyton. When you have a Super Star, you keep him and get the talent around him upgraded. I would have kept Peyton, taken the haul in draft picks that would have been offered four Luck, cleared out the aging veterans and made room for a couple of free agents and by now, Peyton would have had the Colt back in the running for the Super Bowl for another three or four years. Last year was an absolute fluke and rebuilding the way the Colts did it will probably lead to years of mediocrity and missing the playoffs. The Colts are better than they were last year but that big "thump" you hear is that they are coming down to earth.

So the Manning bonus and the aged players and their dead cap space money would have just gone away??  Maybe with a little thought into the big picture you could bring a legit debate in your comments. Oh, by the way there was over 37 million in dead cap space last season. So where does the money come from to sign that many players including Mannings salary and bonus?? 

[dw49]

that was not what i meant

 

 

i read that a team offered up their draft for the #1 pick so they could take luck

 

 

 

Ohhh... man... you brought up that post where I said the bears drafted R Williams. I wasn't sure what you meant . Anyway , I'm sure by now you have seen that it was Cleveland that offered their whole draft.

[crazycolt1]

Doesn't that come very close to being a personal attack?

Too bad trolling isn't considered a personal attack. You make non stop troll comments and now you want to whine?? Get some big boy pants on. 

[Superman]

So the Manning bonus and the aged players and their dead cap space money would have just gone away??  Maybe with a little thought into the big picture you could bring a legit debate in your comments. Oh, by the way there was over 37 million in dead cap space last season. So where does the money come from to sign that many players including Mannings salary and bonus?? 

 

It would have cost us Freeney for sure, which I'm okay with, and probably Mathis, which I'm less okay with. Probably wouldn't have signed Satele and Redding. But that's a lot of high draft picks, so we could have made up for the loss in talent. What wouldn't have had is the veteran presence that a contender needs. 

 

I'm not advocating this idea, but if the Colts were dead set on keeping Manning, the money could have been worked out.

[Fx Stryker]

So the Manning bonus and the aged players and their dead cap space money would have just gone away??  Maybe with a little thought into the big picture you could bring a legit debate in your comments. Oh, by the way there was over 37 million in dead cap space last season. So where does the money come from to sign that many players including Mannings salary and bonus?? 

 

I'm just saying the money was working before Peyton's neck injury. No reason it wouldn't have had we kept him. Some players would have been casualties, and probably those who were aren't even here now.

 

Irsay is just lucky Manning refused to take the fully guaranteed contract Irsay wanted to give him. Imagine if he didn't...

 

The money became a convenient excuse for the 2012 season. Because unless Jim Irsay is a HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE business man the Colts would have existed 2012. If Manning never got injured the Colts still exist in 2012, and they wouldn't have been a billion dollars in debt.

[southwest1]

It does make you wonder if INDY took Cleveland up on their entire draft deal, would RG3 be our starting QB right now?

 

I'm glad we said no thank you. RG3 seems like a natural fit in D.C. & Chewbacca works well in Hoosier Country man!   

[GoColts8818]

No way the Colts were going to trade that pick and no way they were going to draft anyone but Luck. If Luck wasn't in that draft class Manning is still a Colt. If people want to still debate if that was the right move or not feel free but early returns support that it was. Luck is already ahead of most peoples expectations when the move was made.

[southwest1]

I'm just saying the money was working before Peyton's neck injury. No reason it wouldn't have had we kept him. Some players would have been casualties, and probably those who were aren't even here now.

 

Irsay is just lucky Manning refused to take the fully guaranteed contract Irsay wanted to give him. Imagine if he didn't...

 

 

Multiple Choice...Pick your favorite...Comical or historic in scope...

 

 

[GoColts8818]

I'm just saying the money was working before Peyton's neck injury. No reason it wouldn't have had we kept him. Some players would have been casualties, and probably those who were aren't even here now.

Irsay is just lucky Manning refused to take the fully guaranteed contract Irsay wanted to give him. Imagine if he didn't...

The money became a convenient excuse for the 2012 season. Because unless Jim Irsay is a HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE business man the Colts would have existed 2012. If Manning never got injured the Colts still exist in 2012, and they wouldn't have been a billion dollars in debt.

it was truly the perfect storm. There are so many things that had they been slightly different and Manning would have still been a Colt.

[Fx Stryker]

No way the Colts were going to trade that pick and no way they were going to draft anyone but Luck. If Luck wasn't in that draft class Manning is still a Colt. If people want to still debate if that was the right move or not feel free but early returns support that it was. Luck is already ahead of most peoples expectations when the move was made.

 

Not true Irsay already admitted his priorities were 

 

1) Luck

2) RG3

3) Manning

[southwest1]

Not true Irsay already admitted his priorities were 

 

1) Luck

2) RG3

3) Manning

Yup, I kind of figured that's what the pecking order was too. Thanks for the confirmation FX! 

[GoColts8818]

Not true Irsay already admitted his priorities were

1) Luck

2) RG3

3) Manning

enh not the vibe I've gotten from people who were around the situation. Also I know Irsay might have said that but this is the same man who said when the Colts were 1-13 that if he could play Peyton Manning would be a Colt the next year. So I think there was a lot of "owner" speak in there.

[Fx Stryker]

enh not the vibe I've gotten from people who were around the situation. Also I know Irsay might have said that but this is the same man who said when the Colts were 1-13 that if he could play Peyton Manning would be a Colt the next year. So I think there was a lot of "owner" speak in there.

 

 

http://www.indystar.com/article/20130301/SPORTS15/303010061/Star-Exclusive-Colts-owner-Jim-Irsay-opens-up-about-Peyton-Manning-Decision-drafting-RGIII

 

I'm sure you've read it though.

[GoColts8818]

http://www.indystar.com/article/20130301/SPORTS15/303010061/Star-Exclusive-Colts-owner-Jim-Irsay-opens-up-about-Peyton-Manning-Decision-drafting-RGIII

I'm sure you've read it though.

again see my post above I am not doubting he said I doubt he meant it. Again he's the same man that said Manning would be a Colt if he could play in December and then released him three months later. I think Irsay has put a lot of spin on it.

[southwest1]

enh not the vibe I've gotten from people who were around the situation. Also I know Irsay might have said that but this is the same man who said when the Colts were 1-13 that if he could play Peyton Manning would be a Colt the next year. So I think there was a lot of "owner" speak in there.

Grigs doesn't ask RG3 to visit INDY if 18 was a done deal in Irsay's eyes. Yes, Robert flat out said no to the INDY request yes because he seemed keen on being coached by Mike Shanahan, but if Jim was dead set on RG3, Mr. Superman socks would be wearing blue & white right now IMO.

 

Too many variables with 4 neck surgeries & re-learning how to throw a football again GC8818. I side with my buddy FX on this one. 

[Fx Stryker]

again see my post above I am not doubting he said I doubt he meant it. Again he's the same man that said Manning would be a Colt if he could play in December and then released him three months later. I think Irsay has put a lot of spin on it.

 

I agree spin was all over it, but this interview agrees more with Irsay's actions more than anything else he said.

 

I understand what you are saying. Irsay can say he is releasing Luck as many times as he wants, but unless he does it it's not true. But again this seems to fit the best with how everything went.

[southwest1]

http://www.indystar.com/article/20130301/SPORTS15/303010061/Star-Exclusive-Colts-owner-Jim-Irsay-opens-up-about-Peyton-Manning-Decision-drafting-RGIII

 

I'm sure you've read it though.

It's kind of surreal to read that article now...Like a distant flashback that can never be erased completely...

 

“There was just a tremendous backlash when you’re out in public or in the city,” [Jim] Irsay said. “But I think there were a lot of people who understood the situation and removed emotion from it — a few more than you give them credit. But I knew what the backlash was going to be. I know there’s no contest, ‘Who’s more popular, Peyton or Jim?’ I mean, it’s a joke just to ask. Peyton walks on water. There’s tremendous love in the city for him...Shortly thereafter, Irsay called him [Manning] a “politician,” and the other day recalled his disappointment with what he called Manning’s apparent 'strategizing. ' ”

 

The 1 saving grace for Jim now is that the fan base has confidence in Luck so even if we lose to Manning & the Broncos on October 20th in week 7 state mutiny will be averted on a massive scale. Whew!  :whew:

[southwest1]

Even though it's no secret that SW1 isn't a fan of Jim Irsay's Tweeting obsession overall, I must admit that win, lose, or draw on October 20th I will want to know what Jim's initial reaction will be...What will be his tone? Somber? Overjoyed? Quietly reserved? Will Jim hug Manning on the field after the game concludes? 

 

It's like Skip Bayless or Howard Stern...Whether you adore or despise their antics, you still pay attention. Controversy & backstories always make for riveting television don't they? 

[Warhorse]

I think we gleaned the best players out of that draft already....why give up the BEST guy in the draft to get more quantity.

[crazycolt1]

I'm just saying the money was working before Peyton's neck injury. No reason it wouldn't have had we kept him. Some players would have been casualties, and probably those who were aren't even here now.

 

Irsay is just lucky Manning refused to take the fully guaranteed contract Irsay wanted to give him. Imagine if he didn't...

 

The money became a convenient excuse for the 2012 season. Because unless Jim Irsay is a HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE business man the Colts would have existed 2012. If Manning never got injured the Colts still exist in 2012, and they wouldn't have been a billion dollars in debt.

Was the money really working when Manning was here? His contract along with some pretty bad back loaded contracts would have eventually caught up like they did last season. Even more so had Manning still been here. We have hashed out the Polian issue way too much already so I will not go there. One way or another the Colts were faced with cap space trouble big time. Don't take my comment to mean I am glad Manning is not here but it is what it is. Under the circumstances the Colts came out pretty well with drafting Luck and Griggs ability to field a team that went 11-5 while being cap strapped over 37 million dollars. That in itself is why Griggs won GM of the year. Not too many NFL teams can fall into a pile of horse dung and come out as good as did the Colts. Irsay had the moxie to make choices that had the fan base up in arms. Irsay was accused of every imaginable thing that could be thought of. Over reaction don't even come close to what was going on within the fan base. Winning 11 games last season surprised everyone including the vast majority of Colt fans. Had the Colts finished last season with less than a winning record all of these forums would be totally different today. Manning was the greatest Indy Colt ever to play here and made the fan base used to winning. He made it fun to be a Colt fan. But as they say all good things come to an end and it was time. Forget Manning? never!  Move on? yes and quit bringing up what might have been. 

[Goodtimes]

So the Manning bonus and the aged players and their dead cap space money would have just gone away??  Maybe with a little thought into the big picture you could bring a legit debate in your comments. Oh, by the way there was over 37 million in dead cap space last season. So where does the money come from to sign that many players including Mannings salary and bonus?? 

 

There is always a way to sign draft picks....

Edited September 21, 2013 by Nadine

[Fx Stryker]

Was the money really working when Manning was here? His contract along with some pretty bad back loaded contracts would have eventually caught up like they did last season. Even more so had Manning still been here. We have hashed out the Polian issue way too much already so I will not go there. One way or another the Colts were faced with cap space trouble big time. 

 

How wasn't it? Do you really believe Polian was truly that stupid to give players contracts without taking the future into account? He had a plan, like he always did, whether people want to believe or not. But I think the hatred for Polian blinds the truth these days. Don't forget Peyton cost more on 3 different occasions.

 

The dead cap was created by Grigson. Polian would have dealt with it a different way. Just food for thought The Colts had a dead cap hit of $10M from Peyton in 2012. The Colts cap hit for Andrew was $4M. You do not think the Colts could have found a way to fit in the extra $4M for Peyton's contract? Please...

 

I can almost be positive Freeney would have been on the hot seat in 2012 had the circumstances went differently. That's another $14M the Colts could have played with.

[crazycolt1]

How wasn't it? Do you really believe Polian was truly that stupid to give players contracts without taking the future into account? He had a plan, like he always did, whether people want to believe or not. But I think the hatred for Polian blinds the truth these days. Don't forget Peyton cost more on 3 different occasions.

 

The dead cap was created by Grigson. Polian would have dealt with it a different way. Just food for thought The Colts had a dead cap hit of $10M from Peyton in 2012. The Colts cap hit for Andrew was $4M. You do not think the Colts could have found a way to fit in the extra $4M for Peyton's contract? Please...

 

I can almost be positive Freeney would have been on the hot seat in 2012 had the circumstances went differently. That's another $14M the Colts could have played with.

Well since you brought it up, yes. Add Freeney's salary into the mix we were looking at 14 more million dollars on top of the 37 million. The contracts were guaranteed so what was Polian going to do? You tell me? How smart was it to back load contracts for Addai, Clark, Brackett and Bullitt? Only one of the three were good enough to find other teams to play for but were under contracts from the Colts that were signed by Polian. According to two reports the Colts were trying to trade Freeney but found no takers, not even for a lower draft pick. His salary was too high for his production. 

[Fx Stryker]

Well since you brought it up, yes. Add Freeney's salary into the mix we were looking at 14 more million dollars on top of the 37 million. The contracts were guaranteed so what was Polian going to do? You tell me? How smart was it to back load contracts for Addai, Clark, Brackett and Bullitt? Only one of the three were good enough to find other teams to play for but were under contracts from the Colts that were signed by Polian. According to two reports the Colts were trying to trade Freeney but found no takers, not even for a lower draft pick. His salary was too high for his production. 

 

Not necessarily. In the situation the Colts wouldn't have had $37M dead space. Remember $10M of that $37 was from Peyton. You keep him you're down to $27M. And getting rid of Freeney would have given us extra money to play with. I cannot remember the exact number because Spotrac now requires premium membership to access old contracts.

 

But he was in his final year, and had a cap hit of $19M, and only $5M was in bonuses. So cut him you get $14M, that could be wrong I don't know contracts, but that seems how it usually works. The bonuses are the dead space. 

 

Then $4M could be used to pay the rest of Peyton's contract. Remember we "paid", I put paid in quotations because we didn't actually pay them that is just the cap hits, Peyton $10M, and Luck $4M. That's already $14M invested in the QB, and we needed $4M extra for Peyton's contract. That would have left the Colts an extra $10M in money to make moves on top of everything we did last year.

 

If you put in the trade the Colts would have had the plethora of draft picks. Say we draft Matt Kalil, and move Castonzo to RT. We save money by not signing Winston Bustice. We could have kept Garcon, remember he was on the keeping Peyton bandwagon, so he probably stays.

 

Again I wish spotract didn't require you to pay to see the previous contracts. I could give you numbers to prove it would work. So the Colts were not as cash strapped as they lead people to believe. Going the way they went wasn't the only option some people like to believe.

[ruf]

For anyone interested we would have had:

• Round 1 Pick 3
• Round 1 Pick 22
• Round 2 Pick 2
• Round 2 Pick 5
• Round 3 Pick 1
• Round 3 Pick 24
• Round 3 Pick 29
• Round 4 Pick 5
• Round 5 Pick 1
• Round 5 Pick 25

And a few 6-7th rounders. Glad we didn't take it.

If we could have kept PM and traded for this we were crazy for not doing so

[GoColts8818]

I agree spin was all over it, but this interview agrees more with Irsay's actions more than anything else he said.

 

I understand what you are saying. Irsay can say he is releasing Luck as many times as he wants, but unless he does it it's not true. But again this seems to fit the best with how everything went.

and it could very well be that you are right too.  I am just offering my opinion on the subject.  Just from what I've seen and heard outside of that interview I think Irsay knew it would come down to Manning or Luck and if a QB like Luck wasn't in that draft class he doesn't make that move.  IE if a Cam Newton or Matt Ryan is the best QB in that draft I think he keeps Manning.  I just think he saw Luck and felt like he had a chance to get a once in a "lifetime" QB again. 

 

As for RG3 we will probably never know the full truth.  Once it was done what good would it do Irsay to say RG3 was not his guy at all?  All that's going to do is have the media twist it into Irsay taking a shot at RG3 and maybe give RG3 some added motivation at some point when the Colts and Redskins do play.  So even if I am right and I don't think RG3 was ever really in the Colts plans or thoughts I don't think Irsay would say it because he has nothing to gain from it.  With that said my opinion could be wrong too. 

[John Dee]

hughhhhh?  

 

 

The trade didn't happen because of football reasons. It happened because of marketing and , of course, the bottom line. Stars sell. Building a solid roster doesn't necessarily generate the storylines that are all the rage in the era of "sportstainment". Look at the press Luck gets and all the attention he brings the Colts way, and his career thus far has been pretty pitiful. The benefit of being the #1 overall pick. The same people that hyped you will build you up so they don't get the proverbial "egg on face".

 

The big name quarterback made the Colts relevant in the past (Peyton), Irsay isn't going to stray from that business model. It's a business people. Winning games is secondary to making $$$. 

[dgambill]

Cleveland had the 4th pick in the draft...not 3rd. They traded up to 3 to get Trent and the only reason Minny did that was because they knew Cleveland already had Joe Thomas and had no interest in Kalil. We could never have got Kalil. I would never have done it without their whole draft and a first rd the next year.....then I would have done it. Now if we got their whole draft plus next years first (or would have been this years first) I would have kept Peyton and took Wilson later I would have been THRILLED to see what we put together around Peyton. We definately would have had to let Freeney go but I would have been happy to do that. Who knows....as it stands we have Andrew, Trent, Fleener, Allen, Hilton, Ballard, and Chapman out of that draft (basically)....this trade works out better I say...even if I am Peyton Mannings biggest fan.

 

 

Also...I wouldn't have been surprised if Polian wanted to keep Peyton and make a trade and Irsay said no way....and decided to nix that for a young gm and a reset.

[crazycolt1]

Not necessarily. In the situation the Colts wouldn't have had $37M dead space. Remember $10M of that $37 was from Peyton. You keep him you're down to $27M. And getting rid of Freeney would have given us extra money to play with. I cannot remember the exact number because Spotrac now requires premium membership to access old contracts.

 

But he was in his final year, and had a cap hit of $19M, and only $5M was in bonuses. So cut him you get $14M, that could be wrong I don't know contracts, but that seems how it usually works. The bonuses are the dead space. 

 

Then $4M could be used to pay the rest of Peyton's contract. Remember we "paid", I put paid in quotations because we didn't actually pay them that is just the cap hits, Peyton $10M, and Luck $4M. That's already $14M invested in the QB, and we needed $4M extra for Peyton's contract. That would have left the Colts an extra $10M in money to make moves on top of everything we did last year.

 

If you put in the trade the Colts would have had the plethora of draft picks. Say we draft Matt Kalil, and move Castonzo to RT. We save money by not signing Winston Bustice. We could have kept Garcon, remember he was on the keeping Peyton bandwagon, so he probably stays.

 

Again I wish spotract didn't require you to pay to see the previous contracts. I could give you numbers to prove it would work. So the Colts were not as cash strapped as they lead people to believe. Going the way they went wasn't the only option some people like to believe.

All this what ifs makes no sense in the first place. What is done is done and for any of us to even go back and debate this is really silly at this point. 

[Dark Superman]

For anyone interested we would have had:

 

• Round 1 Pick 3
• Round 1 Pick 22
• Round 2 Pick 2
• Round 2 Pick 5
• Round 3 Pick 1
• Round 3 Pick 24
• Round 3 Pick 29
• Round 4 Pick 5
• Round 5 Pick 1
• Round 5 Pick 25

 

And a few 6-7th rounders. Glad we didn't take it.

Perhaps if Cleveland were really sold on Luck and if they had the #2 pick and not the #3 and if they were willing to give up all of those picks to get Luck and we were stuck with RGIII and a stockpile of picks..

Hmm..

Still.. No thanks..

[Fx Stryker]

All this what ifs makes no sense in the first place. What is done is done and for any of us to even go back and debate this is really silly at this point.

Well seeing the topic is about what could have been, then what ifs are warranted. It's only discussion.