Howard Mudd

[21isSuperman]

As we all know, Mudd left the Colts and signed with the Eagles. When Mudd was with the Colts (in his last few years), our O-line play was pretty bad. Now, he has gone to Philly and their O-line has gone from decent play last year to bad play this year. With that said, Mudd is also regarded as one of the best coaches in the NFL.

From what I've heard, Mudd prefers smaller, faster O-linemen who can pull and get to the second level easier. With Mudd out of Indy, our O-line play has improved (just look at our running game this year) and Philly's O-line play has gotten worse. Has Howard Mudd's philosophy of smaller, faster O-linemen gotten old and figured out or is it just a coincidence that Indy and Philly's O-line play has gotten better/worse with the loss/addition of Mudd, respectively?

[GoColts8818]

I said at the time and was attacked for it that I think the Colts agreed to part ways with Mudd because they felt his smaller o-lineman was part of the problem and they wanted to get bigger and rather than firing him since he had already "retired" they just agreed to part ways with him retiring.

[bavanlan]

As we all know, Mudd left the Colts and signed with the Eagles. When Mudd was with the Colts (in his last few years), our O-line play was pretty bad.

Our OL was great until Glenn retired.

[GoColts8818]

Our OL was great until Glenn retired.

Yes it was, and it wasn't just Glenn retiring, it was Lilja being hurt and Jake Scott leaving as a free agent followed by the miss on Ugoh and what is looking to be a very slow development of Mike Pollack that really hurt the o-line. With that said I do think the Colts had a bit of a physopical change in their aproach to the o-line which is part of the reason they were ready to make a coaching change there.

While talking about the Eagles what I've heard a lot less about since week one is people being upset with DeVan go. He's been okay at best with the Eagles.

[Happy2BeHere]

Ehh...I don't think Mudd has hurt the eagles much..sure I wouldn't say SOME of him isn't contributing to that though. But all in all I think the Eagles are just kind of sinking themselves. Our coaching and front office has kind of sunk the Colts...they just expect to win almost solely on draft picks..and sure Manning is the best draft pick they ever used but...you need FA's to help things out too.

[NM_Colts]

Yes it was, and it wasn't just Glenn retiring, it was Lilja being hurt and Jake Scott leaving as a free agent followed by the miss on Ugoh and what is looking to be a very slow development of Mike Pollack that really hurt the o-line. With that said I do think the Colts had a bit of a physopical change in their aproach to the o-line which is part of the reason they were ready to make a coaching change there.

While talking about the Eagles what I've heard a lot less about since week one is people being upset with DeVan go. He's been okay at best with the Eagles.

I agree with the 1st paragraph. As for DeVan, we certainly could use him now after Ijalana went on IR, Diem iffy and Castonzo expected to be out for this week. At least he knows the system as opposed to the new guy (Ojinnaka) that was signed today. Who knows how Toudouze will do. I'd bet if DeVan were available, he'd have gotten a phone call from the Colts by now.

[GoColts8818]

I agree with the 1st paragraph. As for DeVan, we certainly could use him now after Ijalana went on IR, Diem iffy and Castonzo expected to be out for this week. At least he knows the system as opposed to the new guy (Ojinnaka) that was signed today. Who knows how Toudouze will do. I'd bet if DeVan were available, he'd have gotten a phone call from the Colts by now.

Yes and Iam sure if the Colts had known all those players were going to get hurt they wouldn't have cut him. They didn't.

I was just pointing out people freaked out when we cut him like he was an all-pro or something. He is a decent guard, not this great player some made him out to be.

[bavanlan]

Yes it was, and it wasn't just Glenn retiring, it was Lilja being hurt and Jake Scott leaving as a free agent followed by the miss on Ugoh and what is looking to be a very slow development of Mike Pollack that really hurt the o-line.

Agree on Scott, disagree on Lilja.

[GoColts8818]

Agree on Scott, disagree on Lilja.

So you think Lilja getting hurt didn't have any effect on the o-line? He missed a whole year of football as a result of that and we were forced to play a stop gap at guard all that year as a result with Johnson taking over for Scott.

[bavanlan]

So you think Lilja getting hurt didn't have any effect on the o-line? He missed a whole year of football as a result of that and we were forced to play a stop gap at guard all that year as a result with Johnson taking over for Scott.

I think Lilja was the 5th most important starting OL at that time between Glenn, Lilja, Saturday, Scott and Diem and that the effect of his loss was much less than that of the loss of Glenn and Scott.

[GoColts8818]

I think Lilja was the 5th most important starting OL at that time between Glenn, Lilja, Saturday, Scott and Diem and that the effect of his loss was much less than that of the loss of Glenn and Scott.

I would probably agree with that, with that said I didn't say he was more of an important loss than Glenn or Scott. I said losing him to injury was PART of the reason the line struggled. He was better than Federkeil or the other stop gaps we used at guard that season he was out. So like I said him going down was part of the downfall of the line.

[wordofmouth]

Yes it was, and it wasn't just Glenn retiring, it was Lilja being hurt and Jake Scott leaving as a free agent followed by the miss on Ugoh and what is looking to be a very slow development of Mike Pollack that really hurt the o-line. With that said I do think the Colts had a bit of a physopical change in their aproach to the o-line which is part of the reason they were ready to make a coaching change there.

While talking about the Eagles what I've heard a lot less about since week one is people being upset with DeVan go. He's been okay at best with the Eagles.

I have an Eagles friend who emails me every Monday asking me to please take DeVan back. Unfortunatley, we are now at the point where I would.

[bayone]

Yes it was, and it wasn't just Glenn retiring, it was Lilja being hurt and Jake Scott leaving as a free agent followed by the miss on Ugoh and what is looking to be a very slow development of Mike Pollack that really hurt the o-line. With that said I do think the Colts had a bit of a physopical change in their aproach to the o-line which is part of the reason they were ready to make a coaching change there.

While talking about the Eagles what I've heard a lot less about since week one is people being upset with DeVan go. He's been okay at best with the Eagles.

Vick is holding on to ball longer than Peyton, thats not what Mudd has OL designed for, Vick needs to make a quicker decision & either throw or do his thing and run, he is trying to be a pocket passer way to much, just like Big Ben holds onto ball to long

[bayone]

I would probably agree with that, with that said I didn't say he was more of an important loss than Glenn or Scott. I said losing him to injury was PART of the reason the line struggled. He was better than Federkeil or the other stop gaps we used at guard that season he was out. So like I said him going down was part of the downfall of the line.

on a side note

Polian offered both Scott and Lilja a contract , Scott wanted more, Polian refused, Lilja said OK, so thats why lilja returned and scott left

[MAC]

I think Lilja was the 5th most important starting OL at that time between Glenn, Lilja, Saturday, Scott and Diem and that the effect of his loss was much less than that of the loss of Glenn and Scott.

If memory serves Scott and Lilja were free agents at the same time, and the Colts couldn't afford both. They essentially made them both offers and signed the one that agreed first. We would have obviously been much better off if Scott had signed because of Lilja's injury. If Scott has signed he would still be here, and we wouldn't have had some of these horrendous continuity issues. However I doubt very much that they agreed with your perception of the two guards, or they would have pushed to sign Scott and not bothered making Lilja an offer.

[bayone]

on a side note

Polian offered both Scott and Lilja a contract , Scott wanted more, Polian refused, Lilja said OK, so thats why lilja returned and scott left

If memory serves Scott and Lilja were free agents at the same time, and the Colts couldn't afford both. They essentially made them both offers and signed the one that agreed first. We would have obviously been much better off if Scott had signed because of Lilja's injury. If Scott has signed he would still be here, and we wouldn't have had some of these horrendous continuity issues. However I doubt very much that they agreed with your perception of the two guards, or they would have pushed to sign Scott and not bothered making Lilja an offer.

Thats what I was saying above, dont know what each was offered , we never will, if polian offered both the same or one more than the other then he valued the one offered more , wel more, but we wont know

[MAC]

Thats what I was saying above, dont know what each was offered , we never will, if polian offered both the same or one more than the other then he valued the one offered more , wel more, but we wont know

I know, I was still typing while you had already posted

[Smitto]

Players have gotten bigger and faster, it makes no sense if your faster smaller guy has no advantage anymore.

[coltsdan]

Yes it was, and it wasn't just Glenn retiring, it was Lilja being hurt and Jake Scott leaving as a free agent followed by the miss on Ugoh and what is looking to be a very slow development of Mike Pollack that really hurt the o-line. With that said I do think the Colts had a bit of a physopical change in their aproach to the o-line which is part of the reason they were ready to make a coaching change there.

While talking about the Eagles what I've heard a lot less about since week one is people being upset with DeVan go. He's been okay at best with the Eagles.

he is actually being replaced this week by a rookie. sorry no link.

[Andy]

I've always liked Mudd, and I think we should have kept him. He's a good coach. He knows our team well, and this move to the Eagles was sort of expected.

[husker61]

i remember hearing on the news a week or two ago that the eagles were having a hard time converting on short yardage situations. i laughed and thought, welcome to muddville. that can't be a coincidence. my brother in law is a big eagles fan, i can't wait to hear his opinion.

[21isSuperman]

i remember hearing on the news a week or two ago that the eagles were having a hard time converting on short yardage situations. i laughed and thought, welcome to muddville. that can't be a coincidence. my brother in law is a big eagles fan, i can't wait to hear his opinion.

That's one of the main areas where his philosophy doesn't work. 3rd and short and you have 275 lbs O-linemen trying to push 300 lbs D-linemen? Not gonna happen

[MAC]

he is actually being replaced this week by a rookie. sorry no link.

Didn't they use a high draft pick on a guard?

I think it was DeVan who was actually replacing the injured rookie.

I hope nobody thought they were snatching him up because they saw an all-pro starter where the Colts saw drek. I'm sure that Mudd grabbed him as a temporary fix because he was a known quantity.

[jskinnz]

I've always liked Mudd, and I think we should have kept him. He's a good coach. He knows our team well, and this move to the Eagles was sort of expected.

Who expected it? He was retired last year.

[Superman]

Sometimes coaches change teams, for one reason or another. Sometimes it's amicable, others it isn't. I think the Colts split from Mudd (and Moore) was amicable, and I think some Colts fans are a bit myopic in their view of our assistant coaches, especially in the case of Mudd and Moore. Because they were here for so long, it seemed like there would never be any reason for them to go anywhere as long as they wanted to coach. Maybe that's true, but it's also true that coaches change teams on a regular basis, especially assistant coaches. It's really not normal that those guys were here for so long. They both survived the transition from Mora to Dungy, and then from Dungy to Caldwell, which typically doesn't happen. I don't think it means anything about them or Caldwell and/or Polian that they are gone now.

I'm glad they're both working in the game in a capacity they're comfortable with. Both were resigned to the idea of retiring back when the pension issue came up, after many decades in the game. Both are well respected around the league. But sometimes you have to move on. That's true of coaches and teams.

[Andy]

Who expected it? He was retired last year.

I'm saying when he signed with the Eagles, I kinda had a feeling he would do badly there. It's not his type of players he works with.

[GoColts8818]

on a side note

Polian offered both Scott and Lilja a contract , Scott wanted more, Polian refused, Lilja said OK, so thats why lilja returned and scott left

right, Polian has oftend used Scott to explain how negoations work and how sometimes you end over paying for a player because if you don't they tend not to come back even when the market shows they aren't worth what they think they are. He said Scott ended up signing for less with the Titans than what the Colts offered him but he turned it down because he thought he would get more on the open market.

[eaglejoe8]

Our line was actually pretty bad last year as well. This year, it's not much better. Pass protection is hit or miss. Sometimes, Vick will have a lot of time, and others, he's got people on top of him in a hurry. Some points have already been mentioned. Short yardage is terrible. Some of that has been hampered with poor playcalling like not giving the ball to McCoy at the goal line when he's having a great day, going with a run/pass option to Ronnie Brown last week that ended in one of the worst decisions I've ever seen leading to a turnover. It was also mentioned above that our 1st round pick, Danny Watkins is starting over DeVan, and that is correct. So our line this week, will have no Jason Peters, and another rookie starting at RG. I'm going against my better judgement, and picking the Eagles this week, but if Buffalo has any semblence of a pass rush, we are in for a long afternoon.

[Gonzo]

Eagles line was rubbish last year. Kolb got murdered playing behind it, leading to Vicks chance to shine.

[Lodogg2221]

Yes and Iam sure if the Colts had known all those players were going to get hurt they wouldn't have cut him. They didn't.

I was just pointing out people freaked out when we cut him like he was an all-pro or something. He is a decent guard, not this great player some made him out to be.

I cant speak for others, but personally, I thought it was stupid of them to cut DeVan and keep Richard. I agree that he was a decent guard, but Richard wasnt. People said at the time Richard was going to be the Center and thats why he was kept, but now he is gone.

The injury situation now has nothing to do with it really, they should have kept the best players and they didnt with regard to the o-line.

In any case, the Mudd situation was coming. I dont really think he got along with Caldwells ideas, and he and Moore both mentioned retiring before they did. Obviously they didnt plan to actually retire, more like retire from the Colts to go somewhere else.

Then again, coaches change all the time, so its no big surprise, and it doesnt appear to be the awful situation some predicted would happen if both Moore and Mudd left.

[Coffeedrinker]

Our line was actually pretty bad last year as well. This year, it's not much better. Pass protection is hit or miss. Sometimes, Vick will have a lot of time, and others, he's got people on top of him in a hurry. Some points have already been mentioned. Short yardage is terrible. Some of that has been hampered with poor playcalling like not giving the ball to McCoy at the goal line when he's having a great day, going with a run/pass option to Ronnie Brown last week that ended in one of the worst decisions I've ever seen leading to a turnover. It was also mentioned above that our 1st round pick, Danny Watkins is starting over DeVan, and that is correct. So our line this week, will have no Jason Peters, and another rookie starting at RG. I'm going against my better judgement, and picking the Eagles this week, but if Buffalo has any semblence of a pass rush, we are in for a long afternoon.

EagleJoe, I was hoping you'd come back some time. We had a little conversation about devan and I wanted to get your impression of him after watching him for a few weeks. i have not had the chance to watch any Eagles' game to see how Mudd's philosophy works with a QB like Vick. It doesn't sound like it's a roaring success.

[MAC]

I cant speak for others, but personally, I thought it was stupid of them to cut DeVan and keep Richard. I agree that he was a decent guard, but Richard wasnt. People said at the time Richard was going to be the Center and thats why he was kept, but now he is gone.

The injury situation now has nothing to do with it really, they should have kept the best players and they didnt with regard to the o-line.

The Oline is trending upwards. Pollack is much improved, Diem is much better inside, two great draft picks, Reitz is a revelation. Saturday - while aging - is probably playing better than last year. What exactly did you want them to do?

Richard wasn't going to be "the center", but he could play center, and being able to back up multiple positions is an asset. I assume that he was dumped because they found someone better. That's a good thing, because last years line - often featuring DeVan and Richard - was utterly abysmal. Maybe Peyton's surgery wouldn't have even been necessary if DeVan (or Richard, or Johnson, etc) were actually good. Good riddance I say.

[Lodogg2221]

The Oline is trending upwards. Pollack is much improved, Diem is much better inside, two great draft picks, Reitz is a revelation. Saturday - while aging - is probably playing better than last year. What exactly did you want them to do?

Richard wasn't going to be "the center", but he could play center, and being able to back up multiple positions is an asset. I assume that he was dumped because they found someone better. That's a good thing, because last years line - often featuring DeVan and Richard - was utterly abysmal. Maybe Peyton's surgery wouldn't have even been necessary if DeVan (or Richard, or Johnson, etc) were actually good. Good riddance I say.

I wanted them to do nothing other than keep the best player. Richard wasnt good at all. He got body slammed by opposing DTs. He wasnt great as a center or really even that good.

Yes he could play center, but so could Pollak and DeVan.

He was so "good" in fact that most on here thought there was no way he kept his spot over DeVan. The Colts thought otherwise, and now Richard is gone.

Again, all I wanted was for them to keep the better of the two between Richard and DeVan, and that was DeVan. I was pretty clear on that in my original post, I thought...

BTW, DeVan got picked up by another team, did Richard? Based on your post, insinuating Richard was the better of the two, he should have...but he hasnt. Also, were he the better option at anything, they would have called on him instead of getting another FA, and calling Toudouze and signing Tepper.

So by your post, you say Im wrong for wanting exactly what you said you wanted in your rebuttal. Makes no sense, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Regardless, neither is worth the trouble. They are, at their best, backups.

Its the bad decision making thats been apparent lately thats the problem worth discussing, but this thread is supposed to be about Mudd...not the poor decisions lately.

[MAC]

Again, all I wanted was for them to keep the better of the two between Richard and DeVan, and that was DeVan. I was pretty clear on that in my original post, I thought...

BTW, DeVan got picked up by another team, did Richard? Based on your post, insinuating Richard was the better of the two, he should have...but he hasnt. Also, were he the better option at anything, they would have called on him instead of getting another FA, and calling Toudouze and signing Tepper.

So by your post, you say Im wrong for wanting exactly what you said you wanted in your rebuttal. Makes no sense, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Regardless, neither is worth the trouble. They are, at their best, backups.

Its the bad decision making thats been apparent lately thats the problem worth discussing, but this thread is supposed to be about Mudd...not the poor decisions lately.

I doubt that we differ much on the worth of backups, or the long term goals for the line, so this dialogue is a little strange, but I still have to ask where exactly did I insinuate that I felt that Richard was better than DeVan? My key point was that they were both key elements of last years putrid line, and I'm thrilled that BOTH of them are gone. I'm not remotely qualified to detect small differences in their abilities, and I doubt that you are either.

The primary reason I replied is that YOU were insinuating that you believed that Richard was kept because he was "the center" (of the future I presume), so therefore his being released must constitute the Colts admitting a mistake - costing DeVan in the process. You are trying to invent FO errors, while pinning for DeVan. That's a small step from claiming that Richard was kept because he was a draft pick and Polian's ego was somehow involved. I'm sick of hearing it.

In actuality Pollack is "the center" of the future, and that's been made clear for a very long time now. The choice between Richard and DeVan was a choice between scrub backups, but I'm suggesting that since Richard was a center in college, and that he had played both center and guard in regular season action than perhaps he offered the Colts the option to dress less Olinemen on game day, and perhaps that had more value to them than some subtle difference in their effectiveness at guard.

DeVan was in the freaking arena league before the Colts (with Mudd) took a chance on him. Now the Eagles (with Mudd) have taken a chance on him. I wouldn't read much into it, nor expect him to last long. I'm far more interested in Seth Olsen. The Colts dropped Richard to add him - I would bet with good reason.

[eaglejoe8]

EagleJoe, I was hoping you'd come back some time. We had a little conversation about devan and I wanted to get your impression of him after watching him for a few weeks. i have not had the chance to watch any Eagles' game to see how Mudd's philosophy works with a QB like Vick. It doesn't sound like it's a roaring success.

I'm not great at judging invidual play from the line. I usually go by what I see as a whole. Like I said, the pass protection was spotty. Vick had a lot of time on occasion, and others he'd have defenders on top of him quickly, or he was getting hit right after. Now some of that is on him for holding the ball too long of course. The run blocking is actually ok as long as we're not in short yardage. For some reason, short yardage is our Achillies, and has been for quite some time, even going back as far as 08. Apperantly though, the coaches are down on DeVan as they are sitting him for a rookie who under whelmed in preseason.

I think it's becoming clear that having Peyton, who has a quick release benefitted you guys. It also helps to have hot reads or quick slants, plays designed to get the ball out quickly. We don't generally run those kinds of plays often. A lot of our plays need more time to develop, and having the smaller linemen is not as beneficial for us. That's not to say that Mudd is not a great coach, but his philosophy certainly is more conducive to a QB and system like Peyton and Indy's offense.

It's almost as if Reid brought Mudd in on reputation alone, and didn't consider whether or not his schemes will work for what he wants to do. Just like on the flip side, he brings in Washburn with his wide 9 scheme, and that has actually worked well for our D-Line. All of our team's sacks are from the linemen, and I don't think we've had fewer than 3 a game so far. However, since our linebacking corps is so horrific, it also makes us very susceptible to giving up big runs. The wide 9 would be best served for obvious passing downs, but leaves us very vulnerable in the run game with no good LBs to fill the gaps left.