Luck and Pep's offense

[superrep1967]

Does anyone think that Pep will ever turn over the offense to Luck. I personally that Pep's ego won't allow that. 

[Jason_]

what are you basing your opinion of Pep's ego on?

[oldunclemark]

Does anyone think that Pep will ever turn over the offense to Luck. I personally that Pep's ego won't allow that. 

Eventually it has to become Andrew Luck's offense...with Luck contributing to the game plan .and changing it when neceessary.....but it will take a coupe of years..

 

I thought I saw last season that Luck knows what he needs to do with what he has to win games...

[superrep1967]

what are you basing your opinion of Pep's ego on?

no just guessing

[GoodLuck]

I too am worried that Pep will have too much control over the O, and the O will become a lot more conservative. Hope I'm wrong.

[Jason_]

Eventually it has to become Andrew Luck's offense...with Luck contributing to the game plan .and changing it when neceessary.....but it will take a coupe of years..

 

I thought I saw last season that Luck knows what he needs to do with what he has to win games...

 

omg no it does not.  Luck is not a freaking deity.  Yes, the QB should always be involved, but we have a coaching staff for a reason.  Honestly, I think that Peyton was given too much control too soon.  

[Jason_]

 I too am worried that Pep will have too much control over the O, and the O will become a lot more conservative. Hope I'm wrong.

 

how can an offensive coordinator have too much control of an offense?   

[BOTT]

no just guessing

Why are guessing he has that kind of ego?

[stat2883]

FYI, its pretty much standard across all teams that QBs are involved in the development and implementation of game plans every week.

[oldunclemark]

omg no it does not.  Luck is not a freaking deity.  Yes, the QB should always be involved, but we have a coaching staff for a reason.  Honestly, I think that Peyton was given too much control too soon.  

Really?  I would never say that.  I'm guessing that few would.

 

Great QBs do THEIR thing..the OC sets the outline and the player does what he needs to do to win with the game starts..

 

Its Drew Brees' offense in NOLA..

 

Irs Tom Brady's offense in NE..

 

Its Aaron Rdgers offense in Green Bay

 

It eventually has to become Andrew Luck's offense with him contributing to the game plan and changing it on the fly.

 

That's the NFL...The QB has to do what he's comfortable doing...

 

That's what they mean when they say its a QB-driven league

[HarassedOffTheSite]

I'm sure Andrew'll call his own shots eventually.

[YOUR GM]

Does anyone think that Pep will ever turn over the offense to Luck. I personally that Pep's ego won't allow that.

Luck had control of the same college offense Pep is implementing right now, in which he was also the coordinator. Do a little research before making assumptions

[NewColtsFan]

Luck had control of the same college offense Pep is implementing right now, in which he was also the coordinator. Do a little research before making assumptions

 

While I agree with the overall general point of view,  it's actually not going to be the exact same offense.   Pep said almost immediately that he'd keep the best parts of Arians' offense....   and that I think he's also stolen from a variety of other teams offenses....  the Colts viewed tape on about a half dozen other offenses from around the league.   I think Pep will steal from all of them.

 

The basic offense will be pretty close to the Stanford offense.   But there will be some variations....  that's, in part, why Pep is calling it the "No Coast Offense"....

 

Hope that clarifies......

[basketballsteve]

Pragmatists are not usually ego maniacs and as eclectic as Pep's offense sounds like it will be he seems like the ultimate pragmatist.

[YOUR GM]

While I agree with the overall general point of view, it's actually not going to be the exact same offense. Pep said almost immediately that he'd keep the best parts of Arians' offense.... and that I think he's also stolen from a variety of other teams offenses.... the Colts viewed tape on about a half dozen other offenses from around the league. I think Pep will steal from all of them.

The basic offense will be pretty close to the Stanford offense. But there will be some variations.... that's, in part, why Pep is calling it the "No Coast Offense"....

Hope that clarifies......

Yeah, I'm aware of all of that. My only point was Pep was the OC at Stanford when Luck was running the offense at the LOS, so it's not a stretch to believe he would allow him to do so again at some point, once he becomes comfortable enough in the offense. I too am excited to hear about how diverse the new offense will be though, and agree that it won't be a carbon copy of what he ran at Stanford

[GoodLuck]

David Shaw had a lot to do with the O at Stanford. I'm still not sure how much power Pep had there.

Definitely an Andy Reid/Brad Childress situation

[superrep1967]

Eventually it has to become Andrew Luck's offense...with Luck contributing to the game plan .and changing it when neceessary.....but it will take a coupe of years..

 

I thought I saw last season that Luck knows what he needs to do with what he has to win games...

Thanks oldunclemark excellent observation!

[NewColtsFan]

Yeah, I'm aware of all of that. My only point was Pep was the OC at Stanford when Luck was running the offense at the LOS, so it's not a stretch to believe he would allow him to do so again at some point, once he becomes comfortable enough in the offense. I too am excited to hear about how diverse the new offense will be though, and agree that it won't be a carbon copy of what he ran at Stanford

 

Yes......   I'm completely expecting Luck to have the full range of options for audibles....

 

I'd be shocked at anything else....

 

As for the post from GoodLuck regarding Pep and HC David Shaw.....    I'm not sure how clear it is to anyone at Stanford just how much was Pep and just how much was Shaw.....

 

The one saving grace in this --- for me, at least --- is that Luck gave Pep a glowing 100% endorsement.   I don't think Luck would've done that if he thought Pep was more of a figure head and that Shaw was the real mastermind of the offense.   I think Luck's approval is a good sign for Hamilton's competence...

 

And I say all that who remains 'Missouri' on Hamilton.    He's going to have to prove himself to me as the OC for an NFL team.

[Jason_]

Really?  I would never say that.  I'm guessing that few would.

 

Great QBs do THEIR thing..the OC sets the outline and the player does what he needs to do to win with the game starts..

 

Its Drew Brees' Sean Payton's offense in NOLA..

 

Irs Tom Brady's Josh McDaniel's offense in NE..

 

Its Aaron Rdgers Mike McCarthy's offense in Green Bay

 

It eventually has to become Andrew Luck's Pep Hamilton's offense with him Luck contributing to the game plan and changing it making adjustments/audibles on the fly when necessary.

 

That's the NFL...The QB has to do what he's comfortable doing... The coaching staff has to scheme and game plan around the strengths of his players.

 

That's what they mean when they say its a QB-driven league

 

 

 

There, fixed it for you. ;)   The Coaching staff develops the scheme/system, and the players execute it.  The QB does not develop the scheme or create the game plan...that's what the coaches are for.  Sure, the players contribute, but ultimately it's the coaching staff's job to develop the scheme and the game plans from week to week.  It's the QB's job to go out on the field and execute.  

 

Even Peyton's offense isn't "Peyton's offense"...more or less it's Tom Moore's offense with modifications and alterations from Mike McCoy and, probably to a much lesser degree, Adam Gase.

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

Does anyone think that Pep will ever turn over the offense to Luck. I personally that Pep's ego won't allow that. 

 

Poor choice of words Pep Hamilton has to prove his self just like everyone else ,

At this point I'm looking forward to seeing what our new OC puts together  his No Coast Offense is a work in progress we have really nothing to base any worthwhile assumptions on & if the coach is successful & I expect that he will be I would just say Peyton Manning had Tom Moore when the student becomes a teacher a good teacher must continue to challenge & like 18 before him 12 is a pretty smart & capable QB . Theres a new Sheriff in Town .

 

Andrew Luck  at some point & time in his career will step up to the plate & do things that in Indianapolis Colts History only 1 QB ever did & then step outta the shadow of 18 & at the end of the day if theres ever a Mount Rushmore of QB's 12 & 18 will be front & center ..

[oldunclemark]

There, fixed it for you. ;)   The Coaching staff develops the scheme/system, and the players execute it.  The QB does not develop the scheme or create the game plan...that's what the coaches are for.  Sure, the players contribute, but ultimately it's the coaching staff's job to develop the scheme and the game plans from week to week.  It's the QB's job to go out on the field and execute.  

 

Even Peyton's offense isn't "Peyton's offense"...more or less it's Tom Moore's offense with modifications and alterations from Mike McCoy and, probably to a much lesser degree, Adam Gase.

Jason.....bless your 1980s heart.....,that's not how the NFL works..today

 

Peyton Manning is an extreme example, I admit......He runs practice and he calls plays... 

Peyton is the Broncos co-Offensive coordinator..I think everybody who knows says that..

 

One problem in Chicago was that Jay Cutler was not allowed to audible. under OC Mike Martz.

Its true that Jay has been fairly lame under all the OCs he's had.

It was suggested in Denver and NY that Tim Tebow was too slow to audible and just free-lanced plays.

That's why he's 3rd string

 

/.But .all the top QBs contribute to the game plan and, once they have a total grasp of the offense,  they change plays when they feel like it...

Andrew is well known for his graps of the offense...although he has certainly had to relearn things certainly under Mr. Pep...

 

But NFL QBs change a large percentage of plays at the line once they see the defense.

 

    I know you know that......The game plan is ONLY an outline 

[Deathiltis]

Andrew was calling plays at Stanford occasionally. 

[Jason_]

Jason.....bless your 1980s heart.....,that's not how the NFL works..today

 

Peyton Manning is an extreme example, I admit......He runs practice and he calls plays... 

Peyton is the Broncos co-Offensive coordinator..I think everybody who knows says that..

 

One problem in Chicago was that Jay Cutler was not allowed to audible. under OC Mike Martz.

Its true that Jay has been fairly lame under all the OCs he's had.

It was suggested in Denver and NY that Tim Tebow was too slow to audible and just free-lanced plays.

That's why he's 3rd string

 

/.But .all the top QBs contribute to the game plan and, once they have a total grasp of the offense,  they change plays when they feel like it...

Andrew is well known for his graps of the offense...although he has certainly had to relearn things certainly under Mr. Pep...

 

But NFL QBs change a large percentage of plays at the line once they see the defense.

 

    I know you know that......The game plan is ONLY an outline 

 

 

Of course I know that.  I even said that in my previous post (it's in red text where I typed into the post of yours that I quoted).  I realize that QB's contribute to the game plan...I also said that in my previous post.  did you even read it?  And I'm certainly not stuck in the 1980's....heck I was under 10 years old for most of the '80's. ;)  Yes, of course the QB contributes to the gameplan, as well as the WR's, TE's blah blah.  But the Saints are running Sean Payton's offense....not Drew Brees'.  The Packers are running Mike McCarthy's offense.  

 

Luck will not create the offensive scheme...Pep Hamilton will.  If he's a good Offensive coordinator then he will build the offense around Luck's skill set as well as the skill sets of the other offensive players.  Luck will not be the one creating the offense.  I'm sure he'll contribute.  I have no doubt about that.  But it's going to be Pep's offense.  It will be Pep's playbook, not Andy's playbook.  Andy will go onto the field to run the plays that Pep taught him.  sure, Andy will be able to audible when necessary (again, I said this in my previous post).  

[braveheartcolt]

Pragmatists are not usually ego maniacs and as eclectic as Pep's offense sounds like it will be he seems like the ultimate pragmatist.

I hate pragmatism, although over the years I've learned to live with it.

[stat2883]

just in general with regards to game plans and a QB's role:

A full playbook could have several hundred to a thousand plays, most if not all of which gets practiced in the OTAs and training camp. During a week leading up to a game, the staff will consider their opponent (personnel, scheme, etc). From there the playbook gets cut roughly in half. Then they'll look at their own roster and where the strengths and weaknesses are. Now you're down to about 100 plays just as a ball park. During the week, you're only able to practice about half of those with a couple reps each. After that, they'll sit down with the QB and find out what he's comfortable with. The QB could also provide input on his teammates and give his opinion if they are able to run given plays etc. From there the game plan gets shrunk down further...to roughly 35 plays give or take. Then its broken down into situations (3rd and long, 1st downs, etc). An efficient offense trims quite a bit going into a game actually and are still able to not become predictable. Look at Peyton Manning and Tom Moore. The amount of plays they ran was actually relatively small, but they did it from different looks and they practiced it to perfection.

Obviously the better and more knowledgeable a QB, the more weight the staff will put on his input. But the gameplan has usually taken shape by the time it gets to the QB.

[Superman]

just in general with regards to game plans and a QB's role:

A full playbook could have several hundred to a thousand plays, most if not all of which gets practiced in the OTAs and training camp. During a week leading up to a game, the staff will consider their opponent (personnel, scheme, etc). From there the playbook gets cut roughly in half. Then they'll look at their own roster and where the strengths and weaknesses are. Now you're down to about 100 plays just as a ball park. During the week, you're only able to practice about half of those with a couple reps each. After that, they'll sit down with the QB and find out what he's comfortable with. The QB could also provide input on his teammates and give his opinion if they are able to run given plays etc. From there the game plan gets shrunk down further...to roughly 35 plays give or take. Then its broken down into situations (3rd and long, 1st downs, etc). An efficient offense trims quite a bit going into a game actually and are still able to not become predictable. Look at Peyton Manning and Tom Moore. The amount of plays they ran was actually relatively small, but they did it from different looks and they practiced it to perfection.

Obviously the better and more knowledgeable a QB, the more weight the staff will put on his input. But the gameplan has usually taken shape by the time it gets to the QB.

 

Yup. It's been said that the gameplan with Manning and Moore could really be reduced at it's simplest to about 12 pass plays and about a half dozen run plays. The thing is that Manning was free to check to anything in the playbook, which was considerably larger, and reached all the way back to the beginning of his career. Someone told a story about how Manning called up one of his old Tennessee coaches last season to have film of a specific play they ran way back when, and that play wound up getting used in a Broncos game. 

 

I'm of the opinion that an NFL offense should be characterized by simplicity, efficiency, and superior execution. That was the case with the Manning/Moore offense for a long time. If the offensive line had held up better from 2008 on, I think there was a chance at a couple more rings. We lost the wild card game to the Chargers because of a blown blocking assignment; we were hurt by an inability to run out the clock in the Super Bowl against the Saints; we couldn't run worth a darn against the Jets in 2010, and had to try a pass play to Blair White on a crucial third down. Situational running wasn't always our strong suit. Hopefully that gets better as the Colts move forward, and hopefully the passing game can dare to be mentioned in the same breath as the Manning/Moore system. My fingers are crossed.

[oldunclemark]

Of course I know that.  I even said that in my previous post (it's in red text where I typed into the post of yours that I quoted).  I realize that QB's contribute to the game plan...I also said that in my previous post.  did you even read it?  And I'm certainly not stuck in the 1980's....heck I was under 10 years old for most of the '80's. ;)  Yes, of course the QB contributes to the gameplan, as well as the WR's, TE's blah blah.  But the Saints are running Sean Payton's offense....not Drew Brees'.  The Packers are running Mike McCarthy's offense.  

 

Luck will not create the offensive scheme...Pep Hamilton will.  If he's a good Offensive coordinator then he will build the offense around Luck's skill set as well as the skill sets of the other offensive players.  Luck will not be the one creating the offense.  I'm sure he'll contribute.  I have no doubt about that.  But it's going to be Pep's offense.  It will be Pep's playbook, not Andy's playbook.  Andy will go onto the field to run the plays that Pep taught him.  sure, Andy will be able to audible when necessary (again, I said this in my previous post).  

You're speaking with an old soul...The offensive scehme isnt the plays that are called..

 

The OC makes the outline and the QB calls the shots.....With defenses that makes adjustments after the huddle...it cannot be any other way.....we can cal it two different things but the older the QB gets..the more plays HE calls at the line.

 

Peyton Manning and Tom Brady (in the hurry up) sometimes goes to the line with no play called.

The QB decides at the line. You know that..To me, that makes it the QBs offense...

As he gains experience, Luck will call what he wants at the line....He continues the original play call or he alters it......They all do.

Its the way it is today.

 

..and once Luck has played the same team multiple times...he will be inserting plays during the week that he feels will work.

and good OC wanst the QB to do that and Pep wont want Luck calling plays that wont work against a defensive formation set to stop that play. Pep wants him  to change the plays... its the sign of a leader

I'm sure Luck called plays at Standford

 

You can say that's Pep's offense if you want to term it that way but he isnt the one changing plays and making decisions at  the line.....so its not his offense..its his outline 

[stat2883]

sounds like we're dealing with semantics at this point

[GoColts8818]

No OC completely turns the offense over to the QB, it has nothing to do with ego.  As in control of our offense was under Manning he was still getting guidance from the coaching staff and following their game plan.  While I am sure Peyton offered input on the game plan he didn't come up with it by himself and then put it in that week in practice.  There is a lot more to coaching that none of us ever see than what goes on Sundays.  Also worth noting that Peyton also didn't have as much freedom in our offense as a second year player as he had towards his later time here either.  Like I keep saying even Peyton Manning wasn't Peyton Manning day one. 

[Jason_]

sounds like we're dealing with semantics at this point

 

Yeah I think that's a big part of it.  I definitely have a better understanding where oldunc is coming from.   I do still disagree and have explained why so I think we're good here.   Now we just hope they work as well together as Brees/Payton, Brady/McDaniels, Rodgers/McCarthy and I'll throw in Eli/Gilbride as well.  I do think this offensive group of players and coaches are going to put something very special on the field.

[NewColtsFan]

For what it's worth.....

 

When Luck was at Stanford -- his one year with Pep as the OC -- here's what would unfold...

 

The staff would signal in three plays to Luck.   He'd call all of them in the huddle and would make the decision on which one at the line of scrimmage.   He could decide on one of the three,  or,  pick another play if he thought that was best....

 

So,  Pep and Shaw and the staff gave Luck a lot of latitude for how the offense was run....

 

While I don't think the Colts staff will be signaling in three plays,  I'm confident that Luck will have the freedom to make any audible he sees fit...