Do you think Xavier Rhodes will fall to us at 24?

[Gavin]

Then why this FIXATION with CBs when we are obviously lacking the personnel needed to man the positions that teams DO build their D around (mind you I am not even talking about the needs on the Oline)?

O Line and Corner and a pass rusher(And they really dont have to have alot of experience standing up seeing as how Freeney and Suggs both for there respected teams had there hand in the dirt the majority of snaps when playing for Pagano, its really not as big an issue as some make it) should come first depending on who is available, we played without any Guards to speak of last year (Most of them were Tackles pretending to be Guards, (Mcglynn prime example, Reitz another one). Hughes stepped up when called upon as a starter and produced in those 6 starts but looks (at this point without knowing how he will improve his game come next year) like a better fit in the Robert Mathis/Paul Kruger role

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Because we feel that we can solidify this position very quickly and inexpensively.

 

I'm sorry but I call nonsense. We can do that with the other positions that are more important.

 

This is why I call some folks Cornerbackites. They've attached an entire identity to drafting a Cornerback in the first round and no amount of straight forward correction dissuades them.

 

We could draft Dee Milliner AND sign Derrell Revis for $1.00 and still get torched in the passing game (we'd have a sweet defensive backfield though) because we do not have the personnel necessary to create enough pressure.

 

I'm focused on Dline and OLBs. Once we've gotten them situated I'll be on fire for a CB but not before. Many here are and it is perplexing.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

"O Line and Corner and a pass rusher...should come first..."

 

Cassius Vaughn's replacement trumps Dwight Freeney's?

 

On face value it is laughable.

[smittywerb]

I'm sorry but I call *. We can do that with the other positions that are more important.

 

This is why I call some folks Cornerbackites. They've attached an entire identity to drafting a Cornerback in the first round and no amount of straight forward correction dissuades them.

 

We could draft Dee Milliner AND sign Derrell Revis for $1.00 and still get torched in the passing game (we'd have a sweet defensive backfield though) because we do not have the personnel necessary to create enough pressure.

 

I'm focused on Dline and OLBs. Once we've gotten them situated I'll be on fire for a CB but not before. Many here are and it is perplexing.

 

 

I don't see us getting a good OLB , defensive line or offensive line without paying good money.  Just ask the Ravens how a good front 7 with no corners was in 2011.  Can't create pressure if WR's get free quickly and allow the QB to get it out our hands.

[NewEra]

While I do agree we need to address the secondary. The war is won in the trenches on both sides.

[Balzer40]

I don't see us getting a good OLB , defensive line or offensive line without paying good money.  Just ask the Ravens how a good front 7 with no corners was in 2011.  Can't create pressure if WR's get free quickly and allow the QB to get it out our hands.

 

 

 

 

This argument can go either way. Without a good pass rush, the QB will have all day to find an open receiver, on the other hand without good corners, the receivers can easily get open and effectively make your pass rush non-existent. It's an argument that could be argued all day long and never have a distinct winner. The point is, you need a good pass rush as well as good corners. Which is more important, is questionable depending on one's point of view.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

This argument can go either way. Without a good pass rush, the QB will have all day to find an open receiver, on the other hand without good corners, the receivers can easily get open and effectively make your pass rush non-existent. It's an argument that could be argued all day long and never have a distinct winner. The point is, you need a good pass rush as well as good corners. Which is more important, is questionable depending on one's point of view.

 

Negative. "Without a good pass rush, the QB will have all day to find an open receiver..." and no matter who you have as a DB they WILL more often than not get torched. That is the beginning and end of the discussion.

 

This...."without good corners, the receivers can easily get open and effectively make your pass rush non-existent." is nonsense.

 

If you have a good pass rush and the corners cannot hold 5 -15 yards, the problem is probably just as much scheme as personnel.

[Gavin]

Cassius Vaughn's replacement trumps Dwight Freeney's?

 

On face value it is laughable.

Heck I wouldn't have Vaughn as my number 2 Corner or depth if I was being paid, Im thinking Rhodes or Okafor or Barrett Jones in the 1st round if somehow they are all three gone then trade down and draft Brandon Jenkins at the top of the 2nd round

[Balzer40]

Negative. "Without a good pass rush, the QB will have all day to find an open receiver..." and no matter who you have as a DB they WILL more often than not get torched. That is the beginning and end of the discussion.

 

This...."without good corners, the receivers can easily get open and effectively make your pass rush non-existent." is nonsense.

 

If you have a good pass rush and the corners cannot hold 5 -15 yards, the problem is probably just as much scheme as personnel.

 

 

 

Oh come on Brian, I know you know better than this. I'm as much of a "build the trenches" guy as there is, but even I will admit that having bad corners weakens the pass rush. Having good corners only helps the pass rush that much more.

[Gavin]

Negative. "Without a good pass rush, the QB will have all day to find an open receiver..." and no matter who you have as a DB they WILL more often than not get torched. That is the beginning and end of the discussion.

 

This...."without good corners, the receivers can easily get open and effectively make your pass rush non-existent." is nonsense.

 

If you have a good pass rush and the corners cannot hold 5 -15 yards, the problem is probably just as much scheme as personnel.

If we have good pass rush and Corners still cant cover 5-15 yards then those Corners would be looking for another job because they would never be able to put on pads again  :funny:plus whatever scout suggested them would at the unemployment line

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Oh come on Brian, I know you know better than this. I'm as much of a "build the trenches" guy as there is, but even I will admit that having bad corners weakens the pass rush. Having good corners only helps the pass rush that much more.

 

I here you but "weakens the pass rush" and "make your pass rush non-existent" are two different things. ;)

 

If you're DBs are giving up 5-15 yards (ala the previous decade's Indianapolis Colts) the problem is scheme. And if you're drafting zone corners who cannot handle the first 5-15 yards. Then the problem is Player Personnel/Management (giving Bill Polian haters and angle in). ;)

[Balzer40]

I here you but "weakens the pass rush" and "make your pass rush non-existent" are two different things. ;)

 

If you're DBs are giving up 5-15 yards (ala the previous decade's Indianapolis Colts) the problem is scheme. And if you're drafting zone corners who cannot handle the first 5-15 yards. Then the problem is Player Personnel/Management (giving Bill Polian haters and angle in). ;)

 

 

I'll agree with that. 

[HarassedOffTheSite]

If we have good pass rush and Corners still cant cover 5-15 yards then those Corners would be looking for another job because they would never be able to put on pads again  :funny:plus whatever scout suggested them would at the unemployment line

 

Kelvin Hayden couldn't cover jack. What happened when you put him in the right scheme?

[HarassedOffTheSite]

I'll agree with that. 

 

That's all I'm saying when I am talking about people prioritizing CB over other more important Defensive positions (again, I didn't even talk about Oline).

 

I'm all for lights out Cornerbacks (I love Vontae Davis)! But not before dealing with what really matters first.

[BOTT]

I don't see us getting a good OLB , defensive line or offensive line without paying good money.  Just ask the Ravens how a good front 7 with no corners was in 2011.  Can't create pressure if WR's get free quickly and allow the QB to get it out our hands.

Ravens were a dropped pass away from the SB last year...and they won it this year with Ladarius Webb on IR.

[TKnight24]

A. Firstly because the team that can run the ball and stop the run will win the overwhelming majority of their games. To do that you need NTs, DEs & LBs.

B. Secondly the easiest way of defending against the pass begins and ends with taking the opposing QB out of his game. To do that you need OLBs who can rush that QB and NTs, DEs that can collapse his pocket. OLBs that can cover the TEs. And only after those, man cover CBs to defend the WRs who that QB is desperately throwing to.

We are a team being set up to run the ball first and stop the run first. Not pass the ball first and defend against the pass first (and even if we were, refer to B).

Those are the reasons why corner is not our biggest need.

PREACH!!!!!!!!!

[TKnight24]

Oh come on Brian, I know you know better than this. I'm as much of a "build the trenches" guy as there is, but even I will admit that having bad corners weakens the pass rush. Having good corners only helps the pass rush that much more.

I don't think "Bad corners weaken the pass rush"

Ex: Rams vs Cardinals (Game that brought that "Janoris Jenkins is Balling" thread to life on this Forum.

Jenkins actually got beat multiple times by Larry Fitzgerald but due to the pass rush, Kolb made poor throws and made it look like Jenkins was "balling".

Bottomline, great pass rush equals bad mistakes by the opposing QB. I don't care how bad of a cb you are, if a ball comes straight to you, you should..... catch it. If not, take your pads off and exit stadium right

[HarassedOffTheSite]

PREACH!!!!!!!!!

 

Bottomline, great pass rush equals bad mistakes by the opposing QB.

 

^^^ Those ^^^

[Kyle]

I think there are a ton of good CBs (and OLineman) in FA this year.  If we add a DRC, C Williams, D. Robinson, Namdi Aso (spelling? lol), s smith, A Talib, A Cason, or M Jenkins AND resign Powers, then we are sitting very good at CB. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I like some of the CBs in this year's draft but I think after FA CB and OLine will drop down on the list of needs and we will have more people thinking we should draft a stud LB/DL or S in the 1st.

[smittywerb]

This argument can go either way. Without a good pass rush, the QB will have all day to find an open receiver, on the other hand without good corners, the receivers can easily get open and effectively make your pass rush non-existent. It's an argument that could be argued all day long and never have a distinct winner. The point is, you need a good pass rush as well as good corners. Which is more important, is questionable depending on one's point of view.

 

 

I wasn't saying one was better than the other.   I was saying we should get our corners now (as in this year) than wait until we have signed everything else.  All it is is a resigning of Powers and a draft of Rhodes.  I've even said we have money and picks to do both.  I think you're getting me mixed up with the other guy.  HE was saying to go after everything else first (as in OLB's and dlineman) and then go after cornerbacks last.  I'm saying do both.

[smittywerb]

Ravens were a dropped pass away from the SB last year...and they won it this year with Ladarius Webb on IR.

 

 

They were getting torched the entire year.  In 2011 Ben Roethlisberger scored on a game winning drive and 2012 was another abysmal year as far as pass defense even though Joe stepped up in the playoffs.

 

This year, Ravens corners were actually good with Smith and Williams.  They would have been even better with Webb off IR.  So 2 playoff exits with no corners and a SB with corners. 

[HarassedOffTheSite]

I think there are a ton of good CBs (and OLineman) in FA this year.  If we add a DRC, C Williams, D. Robinson, Namdi Aso (spelling? lol), s smith, A Talib, A Cason, or M Jenkins AND resign Powers, then we are sitting very good at CB. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I like some of the CBs in this year's draft but I think after FA CB and OLine will drop down on the list of needs and we will have more people thinking we should draft a stud LB/DL or S in the 1st.

 

Brother I LIKE how you think!

[HarassedOffTheSite]

They were getting torched the entire year.  In 2011 Ben Roethlisberger scored on a game winning drive and 2012 was another abysmal year as far as pass defense even though Joe stepped up in the playoffs.

 

This year, Ravens corners were actually good with Smith and Williams.  They would have been even better with Webb off IR.  So 2 playoff exits with no corners and a SB with corners. 

 

 

Ravens were a dropped pass away from the SB last year...and they won it this year with Ladarius Webb on IR.

 

 

BLOODontheTRACKS is correct. It is a stretch for anyone to imply that the Ravens 2012 secondary was better than the 2011 secondary. They had more interceptions in 2011 than in 2012, gave up less yards passing in 2011 than in 2012 and fewer opponent receiving yards in 2011 than in 2012.

[BOTT]

They were getting torched the entire year. In 2011 Ben Roethlisberger scored on a game winning drive and 2012 was another abysmal year as far as pass defense even though Joe stepped up in the playoffs.

This year, Ravens corners were actually good with Smith and Williams. They would have been even better with Webb off IR. So 2 playoff exits with no corners and a SB with corners.

So they exited the playoffs last year because of their corner play? No, they lost because a WR dropped the ball in the end zone vs the patriots in the afc championship game.

And jimmy smith missed most of the season with an injury....he barely played until the SB. Funny how their defense got better when Suggs got healthy(er) and Kruger came on....it sure wasn't because of the corners.

Oh, and what caused manning to throw that awful pass in the playoffs? The pass rush.

[NewColtsFan]

85.1 according to the people at NFL.com is a first round grade, he has late first early 2nd written all over him........Just like I said he would likely go from the beginning, I expect he goes to the Packers at 26 if we pass

 

Are you kidding me?     Just last week you claimed Jones was one of the top 3 overall lineman in the entire draft.    Did you forget that?    I didn't.

 

Come on now.....

 

I think the chances of you being disappointed are better than you know....

[NewColtsFan]

No. You (the other Cornerbackites) and I simply disagree.

 

On Defense, Dwight Freeney's replacement is the biggest need...not Cassius Vaughn's.

 

After that it is open to debate but I'd much rather go Defensive End and then Safety. Corner Back is my last priority on Defense.

 

Cornerback is your last priority?     Did you mean to say that?

 

Over ILB?    Over a NT?     You rate those needs higher than corner?    Really?

 

Do you know we have only two signed corners on the roster as of now?

 

I confess, I'm surprised by your comment.....

[Superman]

So they exited the playoffs last year because of their corner play? No, they lost because a WR dropped the ball in the end zone vs the patriots in the afc championship game.

And jimmy smith missed most of the season with an injury....he barely played until the SB. Funny how their defense got better when Suggs got healthy(er) and Kruger came on....it sure wasn't because of the corners.

Oh, and what caused manning to throw that awful pass in the playoffs? The pass rush.

 

Just because the pass rush is important doesn't mean corner play isn't important. Forced to choose between the two, I'd go pass rush, but it's very much a symbiotic relationship. The better your pass rush, the better your corner play, but good corner play can assist your pass rush as well.

 

Great thing about our position this offseason is that we don't have to choose. We have a ton of cap space, and there's a lot of value in the draft. Even if pass rush is more important than corner play, we can and should address both areas this offseason.

[Superman]

Cornerback is your last priority?     Did you mean to say that?

 

Over ILB?    Over a NT?     You rate those needs higher than corner?    Really?

 

Do you know we have only two signed corners on the roster as of now?

 

I confess, I'm surprised by your comment.....

 

You've just waded into a hornets' nest, my friend. Prepare to be labeled as a Cornerbackite, and if you're not careful, you'll also run the risk of being "boorish" in short order.

 

Don't challenge Mr. Casserly's assertions; they are unimpeachable fact. Don't suggest that we can address our needs in free agency, a month and a half before the draft.

 

And for the love of Zeus, DON'T respond to him again after he hits you with the Gene Wilder picture.

 

/boorishness

[BOTT]

Just because the pass rush is important doesn't mean corner play isn't important. Forced to choose between the two, I'd go pass rush, but it's very much a symbiotic relationship. The better your pass rush, the better your corner play, but good corner play can assist your pass rush as well.

 

Great thing about our position this offseason is that we don't have to choose. We have a ton of cap space, and there's a lot of value in the draft. Even if pass rush is more important than corner play, we can and should address both areas this offseason.

Well, I never said it wasn't....but the pass rush is far more important IMO. Pressure on the QB just causes far more problems imo...interceptions, turnovers, turns Tom Brady into mr happy feet, etc....

[NewColtsFan]

You've just waded into a hornets' nest, my friend. Prepare to be labeled as a Cornerbackite, and if you're not careful, you'll also run the risk of being "boorish" in short order.

 

Don't challenge Mr. Casserly's assertions; they are unimpeachable fact. Don't suggest that we can address our needs in free agency, a month and a half before the draft.

 

And for the love of Zeus, DON'T respond to him again after he hits you with the Gene Wilder picture.

 

/boorishness

 

Honestly,  I responded to one of his early posts.   I like Brian.    But as I continued reading page after page after page of the back and forth, I thought the thread spun way WAY out of control.   Didn't see that coming....

 

For me personally,  I hope our first two picks,  in whatever rounds they happen,  are pass rush and corner, and not necessarily in that order.    I think those are the two top defensive priorities.    I'd rate a strong safety as the 3rd priority, and a quality lineman as the 4th priority. 

 

Just my view of things....  

[Superman]

Well, I never said it wasn't....but the pass rush is far more important IMO. Pressure on the QB just causes far more problems imo...interceptions, turnovers, turns Tom Brady into mr happy feet, etc....

 

All that's good, but we also have a need at corner, don't we? I don't think it matters where that needs falls on anyone's list of priorities, to be honest, but we only have two corners under contract right now. Assume we keep Powers, that makes it three.

 

Also assume we add a pass rusher and a five tech end in free agency. And based on what Grigson said about the offensive line, assume he prioritizes adding a veteran or two there. Purely assumptions, but if ever there was an offseason that we could do that, isn't this it? So assume several of our roster needs are addressed prior to the draft.

 

Doesn't it make sense that Grigson would draft according to his board, with exceptions being at quarterback and probably tight end? If Rhodes is his highest rated player when we pick, and we've already addressed those positions of need in free agency, would you think Grigson is making a mistake drafting Rhodes? Would you prefer we trade down with an eye on another pass rusher?

 

My expectation is that Grigson is going to draft just like he did last year -- according to his board, almost without consideration to roster need. He stuck to that philosophy last year, and then vigorously defended it in the face of criticism. It's hard to believe he won't do the same thing this year. I could see him trading down out of #24 because of how much value there is at critical positions, but I wouldn't expect him to do that if Rhodes is still there.

[Balzer40]

I don't think "Bad corners weaken the pass rush"

Ex: Rams vs Cardinals (Game that brought that "Janoris Jenkins is Balling" thread to life on this Forum.

Jenkins actually got beat multiple times by Larry Fitzgerald but due to the pass rush, Kolb made poor throws and made it look like Jenkins was "balling".

Bottomline, great pass rush equals bad mistakes by the opposing QB. I don't care how bad of a cb you are, if a ball comes straight to you, you should..... catch it. If not, take your pads off and exit stadium right

 

 

If you honestly believe that...then I really don't know what else I can say. It's only a proven fact of football and any coach would tell you the same thing. Otherwise, why even have the CB position?

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Cornerback is your last priority?     Did you mean to say that?

 

Over ILB?    Over a NT?     You rate those needs higher than corner?    Really?

 

Do you know we have only two signed corners on the roster as of now?

 

I confess, I'm surprised by your comment.....

 

 

You've just waded into a hornets' nest, my friend. Prepare to be labeled as a Cornerbackite, and if you're not careful, you'll also run the risk of being "boorish" in short order.

 

Don't challenge Mr. Casserly's assertions; they are unimpeachable fact. Don't suggest that we can address our needs in free agency, a month and a half before the draft.

 

And for the love of Zeus, DON'T respond to him again after he hits you with the Gene Wilder picture.

 

/boorishness

 

WOW how petty. LOL Oh well.

 

NewColtsFan, Yes, I know how many CBs we have. I have not listed ILB as an area of need. I like what we have there. And though I like Chapman, he is yet to see the field for us...and I am not sold on McKinney. As you've said, you have gone through the thread and read my perspective. So not much need to go further. Just wanted to address your direct questions.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Well, I never said it wasn't....but the pass rush is far more important IMO. Pressure on the QB just causes far more problems imo...interceptions, turnovers, turns Tom Brady into mr happy feet, etc....

 

Spot on! 

[SilentHill]

I really hope we draft a CB #24 overall. Would be great to see some people who think they know what is best for the team cry about it even more.

 

No one here is the Colts GM, and if he takes a CB, OL, DE, OLB, QB, PK, Waterboy with the #24 overall pick I fully support and stand by him and will continue to do so until he falters

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Ehhh "Haters Gonna Hate" ;)

[TKnight24]

I just think we should hold off the "24th overall pick predictions" until after FA. I think then it would be a more "clearer" picture of what we'll do at 24 imo

[HarassedOffTheSite]

I just think we should hold off the "24th overall pick predictions" until after FA. I think then it would be a more "clearer" picture of what we'll do at 24 imo

 

Probably the sanest post in the thread.

[Superman]

I just think we should hold off the "24th overall pick predictions" until after FA. I think then it would be a more "clearer" picture of what we'll do at 24 imo

 

 

Probably the sanest post in the thread.

 

Very much agreed.

[BOTT]

All that's good, but we also have a need at corner, don't we? I don't think it matters where that needs falls on anyone's list of priorities, to be honest, but we only have two corners under contract right now. Assume we keep Powers, that makes it three.

 

Also assume we add a pass rusher and a five tech end in free agency. And based on what Grigson said about the offensive line, assume he prioritizes adding a veteran or two there. Purely assumptions, but if ever there was an offseason that we could do that, isn't this it? So assume several of our roster needs are addressed prior to the draft.

 

Doesn't it make sense that Grigson would draft according to his board, with exceptions being at quarterback and probably tight end? If Rhodes is his highest rated player when we pick, and we've already addressed those positions of need in free agency, would you think Grigson is making a mistake drafting Rhodes? Would you prefer we trade down with an eye on another pass rusher?

 

My expectation is that Grigson is going to draft just like he did last year -- according to his board, almost without consideration to roster need. He stuck to that philosophy last year, and then vigorously defended it in the face of criticism. It's hard to believe he won't do the same thing this year. I could see him trading down out of #24 because of how much value there is at critical positions, but I wouldn't expect him to do that if Rhodes is still there.

I get what ur saying, and I agree. I even said on another thread I have no problem with grigson taking a CB in the first. It's just that, if you spend time on the draft forum, it's always CB CB CB....and frankly, its annoying. It started last year with Amerson, then shifted to Banks, and now everyone is gaga for Rhodes.