Arians on the Grand Design of the Offense....

[Flash7]

Can't speak for everyone else, but I would absolutely love the old, Tom Moore style of playcalling.....just maybe a little bit less prectability. Nobody wants a ball control, running the rock, ugly wins team. We want an offense that uses the middle of the field. Nothing wrong with sending a TE down the seam, having Hilton run a mid in route, throwing to Reggie on a timing comeback route, etc. The way we run the ball is so predictable it's no wonder they stuff it more often than not. There's a reason Luck's completion percentage is so bad......he's being asked to throw deep half the time with a very middle of the road pass protecting line. If it's not a deep throw, it's a crappy screen.

There's a reason he was fired from Pittsburgh. Guess what, with Todd Haley's playcalling, Ben is 5th in QB rating this year. He's ahead of Brady. I prefer an efficient offense to a boom or bust offense.

I agree with what you've just said. But I'm not opposed to letting things play out. Roethlisberger had an average of 63% completion percentage in this offense. I think that Luck can get that or better and we'd have a very lethal offense. It's frustrating right now, but we're going through growing pains and I am confident that we'll continue to get better. Imagine Luck slinging the ball and completing passes on a more regular basis. It's exciting to see now, imagine when we're even more consistant.

[FireJimCaldwell]

FJC...I will take the bait..I assume you have some numbers/info to back up the long ball "never a large part' of PM game. So lets hear it. It should be interesting.

There is no bait(not my game).

I'll give you what I have.

First of all I guess one should define long ball. The data isn't present for his entire career but I'll give you what I have.

The last statistical grouping from stats inc. is 41+ yards, but let's go one better and go with anything over 31+.

2012 http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/1428/peyton-manning

0 passes thrown over 40 yards

9 passes to date thrown 31-40 yards 4/9 1 td 0 int

1.5 attempts per game thrown over 31 yards.

2010 http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/1428/year/2010/peyton-manning

1 pass thrown over 41+ yards

24 passes thrown over 31+ yards 8/24 3td 1 int

1.6 passes per game thrown over 31 yards.

2009 http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/1428/year/2009/peyton-manning

3 passes thrown over 41+ yards 1/3 1td 0 int

24 passes thrown between 31-40 yards 6/24 2 td 2 int

1.7 passes per game thrown over 31+ yards

2008 http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/1428/year/2008/peyton-manning

2 passes thrown 41+ yards 0/2 2int

26 passes thrown between 31-40 yards 7/26 3td 2 int.

1.8 passes per game thrown 31+ yards.

2007 http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/1428/year/2007/peyton-manning

2 passes thrown over 41 yards 0 td 2 int

25 passes thrown between 31-40 yards 10/25 6 td 0 int

1.7 passes per game thrown over 31+ yards

2006 http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/1428/year/2006/peyton-manning

Key year since that was when he was injured vs. Washington. The data cannot be split pre/post injury.

9 passes thrown 41+ yards 3/9 2 td 0 int

22 passes thrown from 31-40 yards 10/22 1td 0 int

1.9 passes per game thrown over 31+yards

2005 http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/1428/year/2005/peyton-manning

8 passes thrown 41+ yards 2/8 1 td 2 int

18 passes thrown from 31-40 yards 7/18 6td 0int

1.6 passes per game thrown over 31 + yards

2004 http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/1428/year/2004/peyton-manning

What some call his best year, from a pure efficiency perspective I would agree.

1 pass thrown 41+yards 0/1

21 passes thrown from 31-40 yards 11/21 8 td 1 int

1.4 passes per game thrown over 31+ yards

2003 http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/1428/year/2003/peyton-manning

5 passes thrown 41+yards 2/5 1td 0 int

26 passes thrown from 31-40 yards 9/26 5td 0 int

1.9 passes per game thrown over 31+yards

2002 http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/1428/year/2002/peyton-manning

6 passes thrown 41+ yards 0/6

24 passes thrown from 31-40 yards 8/24 3td 4int

1.9 passes per game thrown over 31+yards

1998 -2001 The splits for these years are not as detailed as 2002-2012 and do not contain information on the length of each pass.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/1428/year/2001/peyton-manning

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/1428/year/2000/peyton-manning

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/1428/year/1999/peyton-manning

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/1428/year/1998/peyton-manning

2002-2010 in chart form

I would say Manning earned his living from 1-20 yards more than anything.

31+ equates to less than 2 throws per game so no I do not see that as a large part of his game, and while the data isn't available for 98,99,00,01, if it would have been a large part of his game at that point in time, that is something that would have remained in the game plan during the following years.

Hope that was interesting.

[The Peytonator]

^^^^and we're throwing roughly 5 passes per game of that distance? Quite the discrepancy.

[throwing BBZ]

Donald Brown is terrible at reading blocking and cutting between the tackles. He often runs into the line moving TOWARDS a tackler.

We saw two guys reading blocks last weekend.

Tired of excuses for Luck missing loads of open receivers. Few of his passes are on target. Just a guestimate but I would say 75-80% are behind his target.

Very few lead the receiver properly to give them the best chance for yards after the catch.

Our receivers are making some EXCELLENT grabs of his many off target throws is why his completion % is as high as it is.

And yes this is just 6 games with everybody learning together, but I am really surprised Andrew is throwing so many really bad short passes to very open receivers.

[FireJimCaldwell]

^^^^and we're throwing roughly 5 passes per game of that distance? Quite the discrepancy.

Just for comparison purposes. Brady over that same 2002-2010 range(129 games compared to Manning's 144), he threw 1.8 passes per game over 31+ yards.

[Gavin]

Donald Brown is terrible at reading blocking and cutting between the tackles. He often runs into the line moving TOWARDS a tackler.

We saw two guys reading blocks last weekend.

Tired of excuses for Luck missing loads of open receivers. Few of his passes are on target. Just a guestimate but I would say 75-80% are behind his target.

Very few lead the receiver properly to give them the best chance for yards after the catch.

Our receivers are making some EXCELLENT grabs of his many off target throws is why his completion % is as high as it is.

And yes this is just 6 games with everybody learning together, but I am really surprised Andrew is throwing so many really bad short passes to very open receivers.

did you even watch the Browns game?

[YOUR GM]

I hear what you are saying, but have we not increased the amt of times we are hitting Fleener and Allen each game? Did we not just see Luck hit Vic Ballard on a short crossing route that picked up a pretty good gain? I know I saw him hit Donnie Avery on some short and medium routes more than once in the Browns game. Reggie is included in that as well. I think Arians mixes the throws in there pretty well in most cases.

When Peyton was the quarterback, the offense was designed the same way in terms of what the first read was. Deep to short, and nobody every had a problem with it. I think Luck can function in both styles, but he has to be more accurate with his throws.

In our opening drive of the 2nd half in the Browns game, we went with a ball control approach all the way down field until we got to the Brown's 33 yard line. Everything was either a run or short pass. I even saw Luck throw a slant for the first time this season. Worked so good that he actually went back to it on the very next play. Then, once we got the ball to the 33, Arians just couldn't help himself and called a bunch of deep routes. On 1st down he called 4 deep routes (incomplete), called 3 deep routes with Wayne running a drag on 2nd and 10 (Browns were in zone, making the drag useless so Luck had to throw it away), and called 4 deep with Allen running a hitch on 3rd and 10 (completed to Allen for gain of 9.) Carter then converts on 4th and 1. On 1st and 10 from the Brown's 23, Arians calls 3 deep routes with Ballard left in to block (Luck sacked for a loss of 5.) 2nd and 15, 4 deep with Ballard chipping then running a flat (incomplete, deep to Avery.) 3rd and 15, false start on Justice. 3rd and 20, they run a hi-lo read with Avery and Wayne to the right out of 5 wide set (complete to Avery for 13.) With 4th and 7, the drive resulted in a field goal.

My point in logging all of that is to show that as soon as Arians went back to his deep passing attack primarily, that's when one of our better drives stalled. I think had he stuck with the shorter passes and ground game (which was working), we probably would've came away with 7 instead of 3.

[JoKeR]

Donald Brown is terrible at reading blocking and cutting between the tackles. He often runs into the line moving TOWARDS a tackler.

We saw two guys reading blocks last weekend.

Tired of excuses for Luck missing loads of open receivers. Few of his passes are on target. Just a guestimate but I would say 75-80% are behind his target.

Very few lead the receiver properly to give them the best chance for yards after the catch.

Our receivers are making some EXCELLENT grabs of his many off target throws is why his completion % is as high as it is.

And yes this is just 6 games with everybody learning together, but I am really surprised Andrew is throwing so many really bad short passes to very open receivers.

Those receivers might be open but is Luck in a position to make the throw? Most of the time I say he isn't.

[Jay305]

I hate this to be quite honest. I feel were putting too much pressure on our wideouts who besides Wayne are avg at best right now. Use Fleener and Allen up the seams more and let Avery and Hilton work underneath. Others on here have been saying this and thats because of how obvious it is. I like Arians but hes a bit stubborn.

[Jay305]

Luck accuracy isnt in question for me the guy has one of the worst lines in the league.

[krunk]

In our opening drive of the 2nd half in the Browns game, we went with a ball control approach all the way down field until we got to the Brown's 33 yard line. Everything was either a run or short pass. I even saw Luck throw a slant for the first time this season. Worked so good that he actually went back to it on the very next play. Then, once we got the ball to the 33, Arians just couldn't help himself and called a bunch of deep routes. On 1st down he called 4 deep routes (incomplete), called 3 deep routes with Wayne running a drag on 2nd and 10 (Browns were in zone, making the drag useless so Luck had to throw it away), and called 4 deep with Allen running a hitch on 3rd and 10 (completed to Allen for gain of 9.) Carter then converts on 4th and 1. On 1st and 10 from the Brown's 23, Arians calls 3 deep routes with Ballard left in to block (Luck sacked for a loss of 5.) 2nd and 15, 4 deep with Ballard chipping then running a flat (incomplete, deep to Avery.) 3rd and 15, false start on Justice. 3rd and 20, they run a hi-lo read with Avery and Wayne to the right out of 5 wide set (complete to Avery for 13.) With 4th and 7, the drive resulted in a field goal.

My point in logging all of that is to show that as soon as Arians went back to his deep passing attack primarily, that's when one of our better drives stalled. I think had he stuck with the shorter passes and ground game (which was working), we probably would've came away with 7 instead of 3.

I don't have the tape so I have no way to verify the route combinations you state. Using common sense it does not seem to be logical considering they were on the 20 and 30 yard lines in preparation to score. There is no more deep passing when you are in the red zone. It doesn't seem sensible to have called 3 or more 9 routes from the 20 and 30 yard lines! Did this really happen?

I will say I haven't enjoyed much of what we've done in the red zone area at all. If there is any part of Arians play selection I don't like, it has been in this part of the field. I do feel like we do WAY TOO MUCH passing down there. I think you have to give the ball to your horses in the red zone. I felt the same way when Peyton was the quarterback as well.

The difference was you could kind of put your feelings to the side because you just trusted 18 was going to make a play. Luck has not reached that point yet.

[oldunclemark]

In another thread, there's a link to an IndyStar story by Bob Kravitz...

It's a story about who is better, Luck or RG3... but, that's not important to this thread...

This is... it's a quote from Arians about how much the Colts have Luck throwing deep... (most in the league)

Here's the quote:

Interim coach Bruce Arians said it's all part of the grand design: "If you go back and look at my history, I throw it deep more than anybody in the league. We do spread people out and throw it quickly; we think we have everything, but we also use our tight ends and backs to help the offensive line. We want to throw it to the guys who are paid to catch it, and hand it off to the guys who are paid to run it. We're not a West Coast offense by any means."

I confess I sorta knew this months ago.... but now that I've seen it actually play out on the football field, I'm not wild about it.

To me, using Luck in this way leads directly to his 53% completion percentage. It's a waste of his talent which is that he's hyper-accurate. You can't tell it from this offense, but his last two years at Stanford (70+%) says that he is. At least he is in the West Coast Offense which we are not running.

You're asking a marathon runner to be a sprinter... you're asking a singles hitter to be a home run hitter. It's a miss-use of talent. And, in the long run, I don't think it's in the Colts' best interest either. It's hard to sustain drives all game long with a 53% QB. I think we've all seen that for 6 weeks now. You can do it for a half. You can do it for a drive here, or there. But, it's much tougher to get in a rhythm, and stay in a rhythm.

This will be interesting to watch in the years to come. Do we stay with this offense? Or is a change made at some point?

I think our lack of prtotection and the fact that all the receivers except Fleener are new to him contributes ot his low completeion percentage..

I wouldnt worry about it.

We need to attempt plays far down the field early in the game..I'd like to see more deep throws early because they open up the run game and check down throws later...

I think Luck has the option to check down off of any play...He's just been hurried and innacurate the last 2 weeks...

Whe we protect him better, he'll complete more

[oldunclemark]

chill out people, its been 6 games into a completely new scheme.

Please say this again....and again

[oldunclemark]

Donald Brown is terrible at reading blocking and cutting between the tackles. He often runs into the line moving TOWARDS a tackler.

We saw two guys reading blocks last weekend.

Tired of excuses for Luck missing loads of open receivers. Few of his passes are on target. Just a guestimate but I would say 75-80% are behind his target.

Very few lead the receiver properly to give them the best chance for yards after the catch.

Our receivers are making some EXCELLENT grabs of his many off target throws is why his completion % is as high as it is.

And yes this is just 6 games with everybody learning together, but I am really surprised Andrew is throwing so many really bad short passes to very open receivers.

Odd..my No. 1 critique of last wek was than Ballard missed holes....especialy on cutbacks that Donalnd Brown would have found..

That's what I saw/...

[jbaron04]

said that wrong, He makes plays look different but in reality they are basically just different looks but some are the same plays

Lol Gavin u hear these guys we ain't draft luck to be no darn game manager he is the franchise who cares about % win baby win all that matters griffin won 3 games luck won 3 game luck has colts right there with Brady manning brees rodges etc tie or one win back

[YOUR GM]

I don't have the tape so I have no way to verify the route combinations you state. Using common sense it does not seem to be logical considering they were on the 20 and 30 yard lines in preparation to score. There is no more deep passing when you are in the red zone. It doesn't seem sensible to have called 3 or more 9 routes from the 20 and 30 yard lines! Did this really happen?

No, I'm not saying he called a bunch of go-routes in the redzone. What I'm saying is, a lot of the route combinations looked to be plays that took time to develope. He may have called some posts, corners and outs, but they were 10-15, even 20 yards down the field. That's why we stalled, in my opinion. From the plays I mentioned, there was nothing more than 1 route being ran where a receiver ran a route within 5-10 yards of scrimmage. Every other receiver was climbing, attacking the safeties.

Arians biggest problem is on 1st & 2nd down. He looks for the big play on 1st, and when that doesn't work, his next play call is just as risky as the first. Back-to-back intermediate-to-deep passes on 1st and 2nd down is stupid football, from a percentage standpoint. I have no problem with us passing on 1st down, but they need to be safe throws that keep the offense on schedule; not 30 yard passes down the middle of the field. Arians gambles on 1st down and 2nd & long, and plays it conservative on 2nd/3rd and short. In my opinion, it should be the other way around. You're going to get more big plays out of the passing game in run personnel, on a down and distance that suggests "run." Arians likes to take his shots down field on obvious passing situations.

And you're absolutely right about his redzone play-calling. It's abysmal. He was horrible in Pittsburgh in that area, and has appeared to carry it over with us.

[jbaron04]

Lucks completion percentage is a greater indicator of drops than a lot of things. TY has dropped quite a few balls. Fleener has dropped some easy ones. Wayne has even dropped some. Brown dropped everything thrown his way early on.

I don't think his percentages would rival RG3 if all those drops were catches, but it would be much better than 53. And the sad thing is that a lot of them were routine catches, with an accurately placed ball.

This entire offense is in transition. It's a different system than years past. RG3 is the newest member to his offense. Luck, Wayne, Avery, Hilton, Fleener, Allen, etc. are the newest members of this offense, as this is Arians' first year. I see no reason not to give it some time.

Ok but what about If they dropped they hard catch an caught the easy one same place

[Jason_]

I'm not crazy either about what Arians had to say about the offensive philosophy. I agree with FJC that we need to go to more of a WCO as that is what Luck was so successful with at Stanford. We need to have more short route options for him, especially with the lack of pass blocking. I'm all for throwing the ball deep but sometimes the deep ball just isn't there and we need to make sure Luck as a short or intermediate option as well to check down to. I think what Arians said wastes the talent we brought in at TE by using them to block. Both are good blockers but Fleener especially is much more valued using him down the field in a Jimmy Graham type role. I'm not crazy about the empty backfield sets either given the current state of our OL. I also don't think that what Arians said really fits well with what pagano has said he wants for our offense. I would have liked to have gotten Greg Knapp, who was the QB coach with Houston but is now the OC of the Raiders. I doubt now that Knapp would be willing to make a lateral move. All that said, I doubt Arians is going anywhere any time soon but I just don't think his vision for our offense goes hand in hand with Pagano's vision for our offense and that may wind up leading to Arians being let go at some point, even as close as the 2 are, unless Arians is willing to adapt. It just seems that Arians is more about fitting the current players to his scheme rather than fitting his scheme to the players. That's why I always liked Brian Billick, and currently like guys like Mike McCoy, Rod Chudzinski and Kyle Shanahan who are willing and able to fit the scheme to match the type of players he has rather than trying to make those players fit his scheme.

[The Peytonator]

Interim coach Bruce Arians said it's all part of the grand design: "If you go back and look at my history, I throw it deep more than anybody in the league. We do spread people out and throw it quickly; we think we have everything, but we also use our tight ends and backs to help the offensive line. We want to throw it to the guys who are paid to catch it, and hand it off to the guys who are paid to run it. We're not a West Coast offense by any means."

^^^^This quote says it all.

Of course you want to throw it to your receivers, but what's wrong with using a TE or back as an outlet? It shouldn't be so black and white. I hate college offenses. If we wanted to play this kind of offense why didn't we draft RG3? Andrew Luck should be playing in a read the defense, timing based offense.....not a freakin run and shoot.

[krunk]

I'm not crazy either about what Arians had to say about the offensive philosophy. I agree with FJC that we need to go to more of a WCO as that is what Luck was so successful with at Stanford. We need to have more short route options for him, especially with the lack of pass blocking. I'm all for throwing the ball deep but sometimes the deep ball just isn't there and we need to make sure Luck as a short or intermediate option as well to check down to. I think what Arians said wastes the talent we brought in at TE by using them to block. Both are good blockers but Fleener especially is much more valued using him down the field in a Jimmy Graham type role. I'm not crazy about the empty backfield sets either given the current state of our OL. I also don't think that what Arians said really fits well with what pagano has said he wants for our offense. I would have liked to have gotten Greg Knapp, who was the QB coach with Houston but is now the OC of the Raiders. I doubt now that Knapp would be willing to make a lateral move. All that said, I doubt Arians is going anywhere any time soon but I just don't think his vision for our offense goes hand in hand with Pagano's vision for our offense and that may wind up leading to Arians being let go at some point, even as close as the 2 are, unless Arians is willing to adapt. It just seems that Arians is more about fitting the current players to his scheme rather than fitting his scheme to the players. That's why I always liked Brian Billick, and currently like guys like Mike McCoy, Rod Chudzinski and Kyle Shanahan who are willing and able to fit the scheme to match the type of players he has rather than trying to make those players fit his scheme.

Billick? His career in Baltimore was one of the worst offensive showcases I think I've ever seen. I'd take Arians over him any day.

[Jason_]

Billick? His career in Baltimore was one of the worst offensive showcases I think I've ever seen. I'd take Arians over him any day.

Arians over Billick as OC? not a chance. lol. Look at what he did in Minn as OC. He created a successful offense around QB's Jim McMahon, then Warren Moon and then Randall Cunningham...completely different types of Qbs but they were successful with each. He never had a good QB to work with in Balt and that's why their offense was never great. Still it's all moot because I doubt he comes out of retirement, especially to take an OC position.

[krunk]

Interim coach Bruce Arians said it's all part of the grand design: "If you go back and look at my history, I throw it deep more than anybody in the league. We do spread people out and throw it quickly; we think we have everything, but we also use our tight ends and backs to help the offensive line. We want to throw it to the guys who are paid to catch it, and hand it off to the guys who are paid to run it. We're not a West Coast offense by any means."

^^^^This quote says it all.

Of course you want to throw it to your receivers, but what's wrong with using a TE or back as an outlet? It shouldn't be so black and white. I hate college offenses. If we wanted to play this kind of offense why didn't we draft RG3? Andrew Luck should be playing in a read the defense, timing based offense.....not a freakin run and shoot.

Were you saying these things about Tom Moore in Peytons' first year when they went 3-13? At least Arians is winning with his college offense. Also won a Super Bowl with it.

[krunk]

Arians over Billick as OC? not a chance. lol. Look at what he did in Minn as OC. He created a successful offense around QB's Jim McMahon, then Warren Moon and then Randall Cunningham...completely different types of Qbs but they were successful with each. He never had a good QB to work with in Balt and that's why their offense was never great. Still it's all moot because I doubt he comes out of retirement, especially to take an OC position.

And what did he do after that? Billick couldn't even take that group you are talking about to a Super Bowl. Every single thing he did in Baltimore as an offensive mind was a total joke. After he left Baltimore, no one wanted to come near him to resurrect their program.

He was the head coach in Baltimore for several years. Are you telling me this offensive guru went crazy and couldn't figure out how to find talent at quarterback? That offensive genius selected Chris Redman and Kyle Boller for god sakes! The people he selected were terrible, and not just at quarterback. The only decent find he had at any skill position offensively was Jamal Lewis. I can't even half way remember anyone else they had because the majority sucked. Maybe I'll throw in Stokely, and Ismail from the Superbowl year. I wasn't even very fond of Ismail.

[The Peytonator]

Were you saying these things about Tom Moore in Peytons' first year when they went 3-13? At least Arians is winning with his college offense. Also won a Super Bowl with it.

No. I was 8 years old.

Arians won the SB because of the guys that played on the other side of the ball. All the evidence I need of Arians poor play-calling style is the success that Big Ben is having now that he's gone. Like I said earlier, he's besting Tom Brady in passer rating. Not that that's the be all, end all, but as far as I can tell, Arians' predictable offense, and boom or bust style is not optimal in this league.

[krunk]

No. I was 8 years old.

Arians won the SB because of the guys that played on the other side of the ball. All the evidence I need of Arians poor play-calling style is the success that Big Ben is having now that he's gone. Like I said earlier, he's besting Tom Brady in passer rating. Not that that's the be all, end all, but as far as I can tell, Arians' predictable offense, and boom or bust style is not optimal in this league.

Bens team is barely winning games.

[krunk]

No. I was 8 years old.

Arians won the SB because of the guys that played on the other side of the ball. All the evidence I need of Arians poor play-calling style is the success that Big Ben is having now that he's gone. Like I said earlier, he's besting Tom Brady in passer rating. Not that that's the be all, end all, but as far as I can tell, Arians' predictable offense, and boom or bust style is not optimal in this league.

How are we winning these games?

[krunk]

No. I was 8 years old.

Arians won the SB because of the guys that played on the other side of the ball. All the evidence I need of Arians poor play-calling style is the success that Big Ben is having now that he's gone. Like I said earlier, he's besting Tom Brady in passer rating. Not that that's the be all, end all, but as far as I can tell, Arians' predictable offense, and boom or bust style is not optimal in this league.

So I guess Ben had nothing to do with those wins I suppose?

[Jason_]

And what did he do after that? Billick couldn't even take that group you are talking about to a Super Bowl. Every single thing he did in Baltimore as an offensive mind was a total joke. After he left Baltimore, no one wanted to come near him to resurrect their program.

He was the head coach in Baltimore for several years. Are you telling me this offensive guru went crazy and couldn't figure out how to find talent at quarterback? That offensive genius selected Chris Redman and Kyle Boller for god sakes! The people he selected were terrible, and not just at quarterback. The only decent find he had at any skill position offensively was Jamal Lewis. I can't even half way remember anyone else they had because the majority sucked. Maybe I'll throw in Stokely, and Ismail from the Superbowl year. I wasn't even very fond of Ismail.

Well I could be wrong, but Billick was just the head coach, not the GM so he wasn't the one going responsible for bringing in talent. Now he's said himself that he had a hand in bringing in Kyle boller and he also said that was obviously a mistake. He did go on to win a SB with Trent Dilfer as a QB, though granted that was largely because of their defense and running game but still, he should get at least a little bit of credit. If you take away any credit to Billick for the Raven's SB win then you also have to take away any credit to Dungy for the colts SB win

Oh, and he couldn't take the group I was talking about to a SB because of shoddy defense (dungy's defense btw) and then in '98 because of a missed field goal by Gary Anderson. He was hardly to blame for the Vikings never making a SB in his years there. He did, however, orchestrate the highest powered offense at the time with Randall Cunningham at QB. Not to take anything away from cunningham but he'd never been a part of such a high powered offense until he got to Minnesota.

[krunk]

Well I could be wrong, but Billick was just the head coach, not the GM so he wasn't the one going responsible for bringing in talent. Now he's said himself that he had a hand in bringing in Kyle boller and he also said that was obviously a mistake. He did go on to win a SB with Trent Dilfer as a QB, though granted that was largely because of their defense and running game but still, he should get at least a little bit of credit. If you take away any credit to Billick for the Raven's SB win then you also have to take away any credit to Dungy for the colts SB win

I give Billick very little credit for the offensive side of that Super Bowl team. That was a point in time where they actually had some decent WR and they still were a mediocre group at best. The defense was the entire team, they were so good you didn't even care about what the offense did because you knew the defense was really the offense. Every single Ravens game under Billick you knew what you were going to get. Ground and Pound, which I think is where Rex Ryan gets his stuff from.

[krunk]

Well I could be wrong, but Billick was just the head coach, not the GM so he wasn't the one going responsible for bringing in talent. Now he's said himself that he had a hand in bringing in Kyle boller and he also said that was obviously a mistake. He did go on to win a SB with Trent Dilfer as a QB, though granted that was largely because of their defense and running game but still, he should get at least a little bit of credit. If you take away any credit to Billick for the Raven's SB win then you also have to take away any credit to Dungy for the colts SB win

Oh, and he couldn't take the group I was talking about to a SB because of shoddy defense (dungy's defense btw) and then in '98 because of a missed field goal by Gary Anderson. He was hardly to blame for the Vikings never making a SB in his years there. He did, however, orchestrate the highest powered offense at the time with Randall Cunningham at QB. Not to take anything away from cunningham but he'd never been a part of such a high powered offense until he got to Minnesota.

I'll have to check back, but I believe Ozzie Newsome was still the GM when Billick was there, just like he is now. If I'm wrong then so be it.

[Jason_]

I'll have to check back, but I believe Ozzie Newsome was still the GM when Billick was there, just like he is now. If I'm wrong then so be it.

He probably was, either way the point I was trying to make is that Billick was just the HC...not the Hc/GM so he wasn't the one scouting and signing new talent. Like I said, he has admitted that he gave his endorsement to Kyle boller and he has also admitted that was a mistake. So I personally don't think it's fair to judge him strictly by the success or lack thereof of the Baltimore offense. As an OC imo he was unrivaled with the way he orchestrated the Vikings offense through as much QB turnover as they had in the mid to late 90's. Still this is all moot because like I said, I doubt he comes out of retirement for a position as OC. If he did though I would welcome him with open arms so long as he'd also be grooming his eventual replacement because he's not getting any younger. lol

[#12]

The Pagano/Arians vision seems to be this:

- Physical, attacking defense

- Run the ball

- Downfield passing.

That's old school football. Prior to the proliferation of the West Coast style and bend-but-don't beak defenses, this is how everyone played. Will it work in 2012? In my opinion, such a passing philosophy will only work with a dominant defense and top notch running game. With an average defense and average running game, your boom or bust, inconsistent passing game won't be able to match drives with move-the-chains offenses. Also, I'm not sure how instructive it is to look at Pittsburgh for a track record. Many of their best and biggest plays came out of Roethlisberger improvising, not the offense itself.

[The Peytonator]

Bens team is barely winning games.

You can't blame the team struggles on Ben. Last year he had a rating of 90, this year it's 98. You can argue team success all you want, but the QB's job is to move the ball, and he's doing it a lot better this year than he has in the past. There is a correlation between Arians getting fired, and Pittsburgh's offensive improvement.

[BOTT]

Arians over Billick as OC? not a chance. lol. Look at what he did in Minn as OC. He created a successful offense around QB's Jim McMahon, then Warren Moon and then Randall Cunningham...completely different types of Qbs but they were successful with each. He never had a good QB to work with in Balt and that's why their offense was never great. Still it's all moot because I doubt he comes out of retirement, especially to take an OC position.

dennis green might have had more to do with the offensive success in minnesota than billick....green is a bill walsh disciple after all.

[Jason_]

dennis green might have had more to do with the offensive success in minnesota than billick....green is a bill walsh disciple after all.

well I suppose anything is possible, though personally I highly doubt Green had more to do with the offense than Billick did.

[Vance]

The Pagano/Arians vision seems to be this:

- Physical, attacking defense

- Run the ball

- Downfield passing.

That's old school football. Prior to the proliferation of the West Coast style and bend-but-don't beak defenses, this is how everyone played. Will it work in 2012? In my opinion, such a passing philosophy will only work with a dominant defense and top notch running game. With an average defense and average running game, your boom or bust, inconsistent passing game won't be able to match drives with move-the-chains offenses. Also, I'm not sure how instructive it is to look at Pittsburgh for a track record. Many of their best and biggest plays came out of Roethlisberger improvising, not the offense itself.

I agree with this post, out of the rest. The Colts' offense seems very susceptible to a pressure-heavy defense, like a 4-6 hybrid (Jets anyone?) I think Luck would do better in the WCO. If they haven't switched offensive styles (or if Luck hasn't majorly improved) by the time you guys play us, Luck might get destroyed.

[Gavin]

I wouldn't have chosen Billick or Arians

[southwest1]

I can't really blame the Play-Style until we get a O-Line. If we get a better O-Line & still struggle, then maybe you can point the Fingers to Arians.

Cause imo, I don't think Arians Offense is that complicated but with a Young Team, you'll see the Struggles

I don't think it's an offensive coordinator problem at all, it's an execution problem. He's making the right reads most of the time, and the plays have been there. I don't think you can totally pin it on the offensive line either. We've all seen several plays that should have been completed

He is finding that NFL coverage is much tighter than college coverage, so he is having to time the throws much quicker and put more touch on the pass than what he has had to do previously. I think every rookie finds this out. I've seen Jake Locker sailing and badly over throwing balls in the same manner due to this issue.

Can't speak for everyone else, but I would absolutely love the old, Tom Moore style of playcalling.....just maybe a little bit less prectability. Nobody wants a ball control, running the rock, ugly wins team. We want an offense that uses the middle of the field. Nothing wrong with sending a TE down the seam, having Hilton run a mid in route, throwing to Reggie on a timing comeback route, etc. The way we run the ball is so predictable it's no wonder they stuff it more often than not. There's a reason Luck's completion percentage is so bad......he's being asked to throw deep half the time with a very middle of the road pass protecting line. If it's not a deep throw, it's a crappy screen.

There's a reason he was fired from Pittsburgh. Guess what, with Todd Haley's playcalling, Ben is 5th in QB rating this year. He's ahead of Brady. I prefer an efficient offense to a boom or bust offense.

All excellent points gentlemen: Fix the o-line, allow Luck to adapt his on field execution from college coverage to NFL coverage, and let's alter our bubble screen game approach overall. Good advice TK85, krunk, and Peytonator. I like it! Well done.

[Indyboy757]

Wow its so funny how everyone is dogging Arians for the way he has Luck playing, I didnt read most of these comments just to much bull for me. I most be one of the only ones that feel this way, but I think we should be happy to have Arians he is a proven OC and he knows how to bring a youg QB along we have seen it in the past. I do feel that its Luck and the Colts that will be rewarded for the way Arians has us playing, we might not see it this year but I'm more then sure we will see a big diff next year. But my thing is we are only in week 8 and everyone get so caught up in the whole RG3 vs Luck deal we forget that we were just 2-14 last year. The truth is the more Luck is exposed to the better he will develop into the kind of QB we need him to be. We should really let off of Arians Im sure he knows more about bringing a young QB along then any of us will ever know. Personally I think its better to throw a young QB out there then baby him trying to be more conservative and safe like the skins have been doing with RG3. The main factor to Lucks misleading stats isnt Arians or Luck its the fact that outside of Reggie everyone is a rookie and im sorry but Luck cant throw it and catch it he just doesnt have the help that most ever other QB has but that will come next years as well. Lets give these guys a chance to play a whole season before we start talking about replacements of our coaching staff. Remember 2-14 last year at least we can throw the ball this season.....

Edited October 27, 2012 by Coltssouth
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[Indyfan4life]

Ya know, Luck could have RG3's completion % if all he did was run and dump the ball off 3 yards 9/10 plays.