Tom Brady vs. Joe Montana debate

[amfootball]

I find this debate riveting. I watched Joe Montana play and never thought anyone would come close to Joe and yet here is Brady. It's like they are the same guy and what makes it more fun is that Brady is a 49er fan who idolized Joe growing up.

 

In terms of the debate, you can always throw out the fact that Montana has more rings (at least for now) and that he never lost a SB but I think Brady's 10-0 playoff record is more impressive. That is 10 game sevens to start the career and three championships in four years. Not to mention that Brady took completely different teams to the championship and this is the part that I think really separates the two. Brady won his championships with "junk" as Jamie Dukes said last year whereas Montana had HoF talent surrounding him. The one year that Brady had a true HoF player in Moss he broke every single NFL offensive record in route to a perfect regular season and one flukiest catch in SB history away from a perfect season. Imagine if he had Moss from the beinning of his career?

 

I would also argue for Brady that he is the best pocket QB of all time. He has never had the benefit of running to make plays. People seem to forget that Montana was a pretty good athlete and often ran to escape the pocket. Brady does it all from behind line, outhinking his opponent. There is a reason no other team but the Pats have run the Oregon style of offense this season - the other QBs in the league simply cannot compute as fast as Brady.

 

At any rate, I know many still like Montana and I understand that but Brady IMHO is playing in a much tougher era with the cap and FA. I mean he did not even get to keep lousy Deion Branch back in 2006 because of FA. There is a reason that teams like the niners and cowboys fell off the map in the mid-90's. Neither org could successfully navigate the cap/FA era and this is where the brilliance of Brady comes in. He has been asked almost every other season to run a different style of offense whether it was the one from '01-'03 where it was a dink and dunk offense that took what the defense gave it or the one in '04-'05 that morphed into a power running attack behind Corey Dillion. Or the fun and gun offense with Moss and Welker where Brady threw for a record 50 TDs. Or the one from these past two seasons where the offense was predicated on two rookie stud TEs, not to mention incorporating the hurry-up Oregon offense this year. I find it laughable when people call Brady a "system QB" when there has been no system in NE for his whole career and his cast of characters have completely changed year to year.

 

Interested in what others have to say.
 

[bayone]

If u r old enough to watch all  & want to unite  us u simply say UNITAS & end of discussion

 

Hope u all enjoy this thread whomever partakes , I gave a page on Unitas just days back on best old school QB was post name I think

 

Anyway I am not into these discussions that go back & forth on any topic , simply no time to unfortunately ,  though  I know many are so good luck to u all & your views

 

Have a great day and I hope it turns out to be a great post

[Dustin]

I think Rodgers is better than Brady in every single aspect of the game. 

[amfootball]

I think Rodgers is better than Brady in every single aspect of the game. 

He is pretty good. He may catch Brady yet. Don't know if you know that he has modeled his entire game after Brady:

 

 

Dissecting Tom Brady's 41 playoff TDs

January, 17, 2013

Jan 175:06AM ETBy David Fleming | ESPN The Magazine Recommend62Tweet19Comments126EmailPrint

Kurt Snibbe/ESPN.com

Behold the complete and annotated (and massive) list of Tom Brady's 41 playoff TD passes. Near the end of last season I sat down with Aaron Rodgers for a fascinating and in-depth look at the art of playing quarterback. After elevating the most dynamic and demanding position in sports to an entirely new level, Rodgers was on the verge of winning the 2011 NFL MVP Award. But consistently during our lengthy and wide-ranging conversation, one other quarterback’s name kept coming up.

This was the guy Rodgers studied and wanted to learn from. This was the quarterback Rodgers measured himself and all others by. The rest of us might be in awe of Rodgers, I kept thinking, but he’s still in awe of this guy.

 

Tom Brady.

[Dustin]

He is pretty good. He may catch Brady yet. Don't know if you know that he has modeled his entire game after Brady:

 

 

Dissecting Tom Brady's 41 playoff TDs

January, 17, 2013

Jan 175:06AM ETBy David Fleming | ESPN The Magazine Recommend62Tweet19Comments126EmailPrint

Kurt Snibbe/ESPN.com

Behold the complete and annotated (and massive) list of Tom Brady's 41 playoff TD passes. Near the end of last season I sat down with Aaron Rodgers for a fascinating and in-depth look at the art of playing quarterback. After elevating the most dynamic and demanding position in sports to an entirely new level, Rodgers was on the verge of winning the 2011 NFL MVP Award. But consistently during our lengthy and wide-ranging conversation, one other quarterback’s name kept coming up.

This was the guy Rodgers studied and wanted to learn from. This was the quarterback Rodgers measured himself and all others by. The rest of us might be in awe of Rodgers, I kept thinking, but he’s still in awe of this guy.

 

Tom Brady.

 

He can be in awe if he wants, I just think that he can do everything Brady does better. He has a stronger arm, he's more accurate, he's faster, he's a better playoff QB and he puts up better numbers with mediocre receivers and a garbage offensive line. He's simply better than Brady in almost every discernible category. If he can get another ring I'd put him up with some of the greats.

[amfootball]

He can be in awe if he wants, I just think that he can do everything Brady does better. He has a stronger arm, he's more accurate, he's faster, he's a better playoff QB and he puts up better numbers with mediocre receivers and a garbage offensive line. He's simply better than Brady in almost every discernible category. If he can get another ring I'd put him up with some of the greats.

Hold on there now. I like rodgers too but he is NOT more accurate and he currently sports a 5-3 playoff record with only one win the last two seasons. He also has the best WR corp in football. There is no debate there. He has a looong way to go to catch Brady in any aspect of the game. That being said, what do you think of McCarthy? I thought he should have been fired this year. He made a terrible hire at OC and did nothing to improve the defense.

[Dustin]

Hold on there now. I like rodgers too but he is NOT more accurate and he currently sports a 5-3 playoff record with only one win the last two seasons. He also has the best WR corp in football. There is no debate there. He has a looong way to go to catch Brady in any aspect of the game. That being said, what do you think of McCarthy? I thought he should have been fired this year. He made a terrible hire at OC and did nothing to improve the defense.

 

Rodgers is most definitely as accurate if not more than Brady is. I've never seen him throw a pass that went over the head of a receiver or skip into the dirt. Now Brady doesn't do these things that much either but Rodgers is just spot on with all of his passes.

 

He has a 5-3 playoff record while also having the highest Post Season passer rating of any QB in NFL history, a whole 20 points higher than Brady. Rodgers never had the luxury of a defense to carry him to his Super Bowl victory like Brady did.

 

And no Rodgers does not have the best WR core in the league. That belongs to Brady and the Patriots. They put up big numbers since Rodgers has been there but I would bet you never heard of many of those receivers until Rodgers made them household names. Both of his top 2 receivers only played in only 20 combined games, he also didn't have the help of a running game like Brady did and still put up better numbers than Brady.

[amfootball]

Rodgers is most definitely as accurate if not more than Brady is. I've never seen him throw a pass that went over the head of a receiver or skip into the dirt. Now Brady doesn't do these things that much either but Rodgers is just spot on with all of his passes.

 

He has a 5-3 playoff record while also having the highest Post Season passer rating of any QB in NFL history, a whole 20 points higher than Brady. Rodgers never had the luxury of a defense to carry him to his Super Bowl victory like Brady did.

 

And no Rodgers does not have the best WR core in the league. That belongs to Brady and the Patriots. They put up big numbers since Rodgers has been there but I would bet you never heard of many of those receivers until Rodgers made them household names. Both of his top 2 receivers only played in only 20 combined games, he also didn't have the help of a running game like Brady did and still put up better numbers than Brady.

Ok so we agree both are accurate. You do realize that Brady has played in 23 soon to be 24 playoff games? If Rodgers ever plays in that many that we can look at this passer rating. Brady has nowhere near the receiving core of Rodgers, espcially this year where he has not had more than two games where Gronk and Hernandez played on the field at the same time. The receivers Rodgers has were pretty good under Favre too. Remember he inherited an NFC championship cliber team whereas Brady got a 5-11 and 0-2 Pats team.

 

One of the biggest misconceptions about Brady is that his D carried him to the SB. Here are the Pats offensive and defensive ranks in their SB years:

2001 - Def. ranked 24;  Off. ranked 19

2003 - Def. ranked 7;  Off. ranked 17

2004 - Def. ranked 9;  Off. ranked 7

2007 - Def. ranked 4 ;  Off. ranked 1

2011 - Def. ranked 31;  Off. ranked 2

2012 - Def. ranked 25 ; Off. ranked 1 (relevant if they make SB)

 

Only once was Brady's offense ranked lower than his defense in 2003. Those Pats defenses were bend don't break. And in the first two SBs Brady had a 14 point lead with 10 minutes to go against the Rams only to see his defense give it up and in 2003 he had an 11 point lead with 11 minutes to go against the Panthers only to see his defense give it up. I will not even discuss 2007 and 2011 where he left the field with the lead with minutes to play in both SBs only to see his defense wilt.

 

I believe Rodgers did have a pretty great D in 2010, no? To the tune of three TOs in the SB against the steelers including a pick six?

 

But you know what ultimately stinks for Rodgers? He had to sit for FOUR years behind Favre. Statistically he will have a tough time catching Brady, Manning just because he will run out of time. Additionally, he has RG3, Kaepernick and Russell to contend with in the NFC not to mention Brees and Eli. The road back to the SB will be very difficult for him. But still you have not answered my question, what do you think of McCarthy?

[Dustin]

Ok so we agree both are accurate. You do realize that Brady has played in 23 soon to be 24 playoff games? If Rodgers ever plays in that many that we can look at this passer rating. Brady has nowhere near the receiving core of Rodgers, espcially this year where he has not had more than two games where Gronk and Hernandez played on the field at the same time. The receivers Rodgers has were pretty good under Favre too. Remember he inherited an NFC championship cliber team whereas Brady got a 5-11 and 0-2 Pats team.

 

One of the biggest misconceptions about Brady is that his D carried him to the SB. Here are the Pats offensive and defensive ranks in their SB years:

2001 - Def. ranked 24;  Off. ranked 19

2003 - Def. ranked 7;  Off. ranked 17

2004 - Def. ranked 9;  Off. ranked 7

2007 - Def. ranked 4 ;  Off. ranked 1

2011 - Def. ranked 31;  Off. ranked 2

2012 - Def. ranked 25 ; Off. ranked 1 (relevant if they make SB)

 

 

Good try bro, but I already do research, no need to pull the wool over my eyes. In the Super Bowl runs the Pats defense was 6, 1, 2, 4, and 15 in points allowed.( http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/ )  Yards allowed is a totally useless stat. Brady hasn't won a Super Bowl since his defense left the Top 7 of the league.

 

There is no reasonable argument you can make for Brady's Super Bowl losses.The Pats defense managed to hold the Giants to 17 points (Lower than the defenses average for the year) and 24 points (3 points higher than their season average. Brady put up 14 points (a whole 22 points lower than their season average) and 17 points (15 points lower than their season average). Brady is the reason the Pats lost both of those Super Bowls.

 

And I don't really think much of McCarthy to be honest. He seems to consistently be good with all of the injuries to his team and put together great offenses. He seems like a solid coach.

[Dustin]

And I was actually wrong about the Packs defense. They were 2nd in the league in Defensive PPG. But, my other points hold true.

[Synthetic]

This debate is ridiculous.

 

Joe Cool played in the last era of real defensive football. By real I mean defenses could get away with everything. He didn't benefit from roughing the passer or the insane amount of pass interference calls we have today. Go watch some games he played in. He got hit late, and everything, no flags. No tuck rule either, which brought Brady to the Super Bowl in 2001.

 

 

If you want to know what I mean, go watch the 1990 NFC Championship game where he got knocked out by the Giants. Look at how bad they were hitting him. You never see that type of beating anymore without flags flying everywhere.

 

 

I don't think we can compare ANY QB today to any of them from the 80's. I hear this crap all the time from Saints fans how Brees is better than Marino or Warren Moon. Put Dan Marino and Moon in today's league, they would have a ring. Put Jim Kelly or Dan Fouts in today's league, they would be unstoppable. Does anyone remember Steve DeBerg? The guy who played with a broken finger? Put him in today's age, and he would be sending the Buc's to the playoffs.

 

In the 80's and even the 90's, Wide receivers got mauled by corners and safeties. Offensive pass interference was called A LOT when I was growing up. And yes I am referring to Roddy White and Steve Smith who push off every single play and never get it called on them. Back in the day the rules kept the game fair and even. Today it's so biased to the offense, it's not even funny.

[DILLIGAFER]

there is no debate.. Brady has nothing compared to Joe M. Or Unitas for that matter.

[BOTT]

Brady is better than Montana and it isn't even close. Hell Montana isn't even the best QB of his era.

[-JJ-]

This debate is ridiculous.

 

Joe Cool played in the last era of real defensive football. By real I mean defenses could get away with everything. He didn't benefit from roughing the passer or the insane amount of pass interference calls we have today. Go watch some games he played in. He got hit late, and everything, no flags. No tuck rule either, which brought Brady to the Super Bowl in 2001.

 

 

If you want to know what I mean, go watch the 1990 NFC Championship game where he got knocked out by the Giants. Look at how bad they were hitting him. You never see that type of beating anymore without flags flying everywhere.

 

 

I don't think we can compare ANY QB today to any of them from the 80's. I hear this crap all the time from Saints fans how Brees is better than Marino or Warren Moon. Put Dan Marino and Moon in today's league, they would have a ring. Put Jim Kelly or Dan Fouts in today's league, they would be unstoppable. Does anyone remember Steve DeBerg? The guy who played with a broken finger? Put him in today's age, and he would be sending the Buc's to the playoffs.

 

In the 80's and even the 90's, Wide receivers got mauled by corners and safeties. Offensive pass interference was called A LOT when I was growing up. And yes I am referring to Roddy White and Steve Smith who push off every single play and never get it called on them. Back in the day the rules kept the game fair and even. Today it's so biased to the offense, it's not even funny.

Yeah the offense is biased. They wanted more fans and to draw them in they had to have lots of spectacular passing. I imagine you like myself did not find 9-3 games boring

 

Regarding defenses allowed more thus tainting todays QBs I would add possibly the defenders are bigger,faster,and stronger today too so..there may be some balancing out there.

 

Oh and the tuck rule was called before Brady many times In fact it was called against the Patriots earlier that year. It almost cost us the game but we came back to score anyway. If I remember it was a Texan or Tenn game. It was also called against NE the year before.

[21isSuperman]

Is it even possible to compare the two?  They played in completely different eras under completely different rules.  The game today is far more pass-first and favours the QBs more than it did in the 70s

[braveheartcolt]

Probably best if this thread was posted on a Niners or Patriot forum, but whatever floats your boat. It's like 'flash' posting on here. Must be some Patriots forum where all these 'rah rah Brady' threads are getting coordinated....

 

Brady's good, but the last 7 years, kind of Peyton-esque in the play-offs....let him finish off the season before the ticker tape is launched.

 

Don't know why I'm writing this, as I don't really care.......

 

Doh...

[ViriLudant]

Unitas was not better than Montana . Sorry.

[Dustin]

Unitas was not better than Montana . Sorry.

 

What are you sorry for? Having an opinion?

[jvan1973]

Brady couldn't hold Joe Cools

[amfootball]

Sure the era's are different but if you think Montana or Marino would light it up when their skill poisitons would be changing every 3 years you are insane. Not to mention the opposing QBs lighting it up against them. The FA/cap is much more difficult to consistenly win year in and year out. Even Montana said that at last year's SB.

[coltfaninnewyork]

Montana the  best brady certainely in conversation,though.

[amfootball]

Good try bro, but I already do research, no need to pull the wool over my eyes. In the Super Bowl runs the Pats defense was 6, 1, 2, 4, and 15 in points allowed.( http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/ )  Yards allowed is a totally useless stat. Brady hasn't won a Super Bowl since his defense left the Top 7 of the league.

 

There is no reasonable argument you can make for Brady's Super Bowl losses.The Pats defense managed to hold the Giants to 17 points (Lower than the defenses average for the year) and 24 points (3 points higher than their season average. Brady put up 14 points (a whole 22 points lower than their season average) and 17 points (15 points lower than their season average). Brady is the reason the Pats lost both of those Super Bowls.

 

And I don't really think much of McCarthy to be honest. He seems to consistently be good with all of the injuries to his team and put together great offenses. He seems like a solid coach.

If you want to use points then my argument still holds true that his defense did not carry him to his titles with 2003 being the only year where the defense was ranked significantly higher than the offense. 2011 and 2012 were completely carried by Brady.

 

2001: off.-6; def.-6

2003: off.-12; def.-1

2004: off.-4; def. - 2

2007: off - 1; def.- 1

2011: off.-5; def.-15

2012: off.-1; def.-9

 

I think McCarthy will be on the hot seat next year. Rodgers was sacked 51 times! 51. No run game. No defense.

[Dustin]

If you want to use points then my argument still holds true that his defense did not carry him to his titles with 2003 being the only year where the defense was ranked significantly higher than the offense. 2011 and 2012 were completely carried by Brady.

 

2001: off.-6; def.-6

2003: off.-12; def.-1

2004: off.-4; def. - 2

2007: off - 1; def.- 1

2011: off.-5; def.-15

2012: off.-1; def.-9

 

I think McCarthy will be on the hot seat next year. Rodgers was sacked 51 times! 51. No run game. No defense.

 

He hasn't won a Super Bowl since the defense left the top 6.

[amfootball]

He hasn't won a Super Bowl since the defense left the top 6.

He carried the worst defense in the league second only to GB to the SB last year. He is doing it again this year. The actual SB is hard to win you know but he is getting there every other year. Mind blowing stat.

[Dustin]

He carried the worst defense in the league second only to GB to the SB last year. He is doing it again this year. The actual SB is hard to win you know but he is getting there every other year. Mind blowing stat.

 

It was the 15th best defense I age you the stats above.

[amfootball]

It was the 15th best defense I age you the stats above.

15 is good? They were 31 in yardage which does count you know. If your D is letting up a ton of yards that means they are not getting off the field on third down which means less offensive possessions and field position is rarely in your favor throughout the game. Troy Aikman said last year heading into the playoffs that the Pats defense was the worst defense he has ever seen make the playoffs. Brady carried them.

[Dustin]

15 is good? They were 31 in yardage which does count you know. If your D is letting up a ton of yards that means they are not getting off the field on third down which means less offensive possessions and field position is rarely in your favor throughout the game. Troy Aikman said last year heading into the playoffs that the Pats defense was the worst defense he has ever seen make the playoffs.

 

Yardage means nothing. Has there ever been a team to put up 600 yards and 0 point and win a game? Points are the only thing that matters. The Pats were above average on TOP on offense last year.

[amfootball]

Yardage means nothing. Has there ever been a team to put up 600 yards and 0 point and win a game? Points are the only thing that matters. The Pats were above average on TOP on offense last year.

If yardage meant nothing than why is it the measuring stick for defensive ranking? There is no such thing of letting up 600 yards and zero points. The two do correlate. If you look at the Pats games last year, Brady got out to big leads in many of the games which allowed them to stay in the game. They were by far the worst patriot defense in the Brady/Belichick era but Brady covered for them.

[ColtsFTW]

Yardage means nothing. Has there ever been a team to put up 600 yards and 0 point and win a game? Points are the only thing that matters. The Pats were above average on TOP on offense last year.

Good example would be the KC game where we allowed 352 rushing yards and 507 total yards but only 13 points and snuck out with the win.

[amfootball]

Good example would be the KC game where we allowed 352 rushing yards and 507 total yards but only 13 points and snuck out with the win.

And KC had a goof at QB that kept throwing the ball to the pats. Can't remember his name. But he threw two picks in the end zone right to the pats lousy secondary.

[Dustin]

If yardage meant nothing than why is it the measuring stick for defensive ranking? There is no such thing of letting up 600 yards and zero points. The two do correlate. If you look at the Pats games last year, Brady got out to big leads in many of the games which allowed them to stay in the game. They were by far the worst patriot defense in the Brady/Belichick era but Brady covered for them.

 

Who uses it as the measuring stick for defensive rankings?

 

Did you see the Indy vs KC game this year? The Colts gave up 600 yards but only 13 yards. Are you saying it's better to give up 28 points and 200 yards then it is to give up 600 yards and 13 points.

[amfootball]

Who uses it as the measuring stick for defensive rankings?

 

Did you see the Indy vs KC game this year? The Colts gave up 600 yards but only 13 yards. Are you saying it's better to give up 28 points and 200 yards then it is to give up 600 yards and 13 points.

The entire NFL uses it as their defensive rank. Same for the offense. It is yards.

[Dustin]

The entire NFL uses it as their defensive rank. Same for the offense. It is yards.

 

No they don't. And even if they did, how does that somehow make it more important?

[amfootball]

No they don't. And even if they did, how does that somehow make it more important?

Yes they do. When they rank offense and defense it is always by yards. Not points. It does not make it more important but you act as if it does not matter at all. It does. When a defense let's up 400 or 500 yards you have to have a QB like Brady to make up the difference. It cuts down on the number of offensive possessions as the D is not getting off the field on third down and it drastically changes field position. All these factors lead to point scoring or lack thereof. Just a point of reference, the pats defense last year was the worst defense statiscally to ever make the playoffs or get to the SB. It was all Brady and the O.

[Dustin]

 It was all Brady and the O.

 

And the 15th ranked defense.

[jjcolts]

During the 49ers and Falcons game, a defensive player was coming down and as he was landing his hand and arm hit Kaepernick head!

15 yard penalty.  Those are the rules today. It was the right call.

 

This is why you cannot compare Brady to Montana. 

[Andy]

Alright...

 

If Brady wins the Super Bowl, he's the greatest player of all time. 

[jvan1973]

Alright...

If Brady wins the Super Bowl, he's the greatest player of all time.

Otto graham won 7 titles

[DILLIGAFER]

Dont take this the wrong way Pats/Brady fans.. but i give more credit to BB for the Super Bowl wins than Brady. He is the coach of the century IMO

[Jules]

No No No No No