T.Y Hilton vs Austin Collie

[Flash7]

Because he (Austin Collie) is not faster than Donnie Avery and has no identifiable advantage over Avery. Both are starting from scratch healthy and in a new offense with a new QB, I give the advantage to the guy who can best stretch the field.

Seems pretty clear.

If speed was all that mattered, then every team would just sign trck stars. Playing the receiver position is so much more than speed. Speed is important, however there are other things that make a receiver great. Austin Collie is a great route runner and more importantly--he is great at reading a defense and finding the open zones within the defense. Garcon had tons of speed, but questionable hands. Collie has reliable hands.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Austin Collie is a great route runner and more importantly--he is great at reading a defense and finding the open zones within the defense.

Amen. That is why he was the #3.

Garcon had tons of speed, but questionable hands. Collie has reliable hands.

Thank you for reinforcing my point. The fast guy is the #2.

[Rich Cannon]

Yeah, I doubt it. That'll more than likely be Avery. If you're the #2....you're the #2.

that is all he has been in the NFL and that is all it appears he will be on "this" offense.

Good for him. But he'll need Avery to lose the #2 more than he has the ability to take it.

IYO indeed. ;)

Hmmmm so i guess in a new offensive system hes automatically the slot guy and Donnie Avery is crowned the number 2 who has a history of Injury problems and really has shown nothing in his NFL career and hes automatically number 2. Oh by the way speed has nothing to do with you being the number 2 guy as stated in the post above there are plenty of slow number 2 receivers in the NFL laughable.. Only if my emoticon worked as well as yours on this work computer. Collie is the number 2 "option" on the team. In 3 wr sets both Avery and Collie will switch between slot and X and in other formations as well.

[Coffeedrinker]

With all that said, if I am the O.C. I move Collie to the #2 for health reasons alone. He cannot stand up to the punishment. But truth be told, if I am the O.C. I want no part of Austin Collie

So, Collie is not fast enough to be a #2 WR but if you were the OC you'd move him to the #2 spot? Then once you moved him to the #2 spot you wouldn't have anything to do with him?

I think I speak for most on this board when I say... I'm glad you are not the OC.

He has taken too many concussions and as a result is liable to take more. To me that means through no fault of his own, I cannot count on him. Why waste my rookie QB's time developing some sort of rhythm with a guy who runs a reasonable risk of just not being there?

So you can't depend on Collie but somehow you can count on a guy that only has 4 catches in the last two years.

[Rich Cannon]

So, Collie is not fast enough to be a #2 WR but if you were the OC you'd move him to the #2 spot? Then once you moved him to the #2 spot you wouldn't have anything to do with him?

I think I speak for most on this board when I say... I'm glad you are not the OC.

So you can't depend on Collie but somehow you can count on a guy that only has 4 catches in the last two years.

Dont talk about our new number 2 Avery like that he might hear you. The voice of Common Sense sounds so clear. Thank you good sir.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Hahaha ;)

[Coffeedrinker]

Because he is not faster than Donnie Avery and has no identifiable advantage over Avery. Both are starting from scratch healthy and in a new offense with a new QB, I give the advantage to the guy who can best stretch the field.

Seems pretty clear.

No advantage other than, he's a better route runner, better hands, better at reading defenses and has played in more than one game in the last two years.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

So, Collie is not fast enough to be a #2 WR but if you were the OC you'd move him to the #2 spot? Then once you moved him to the #2 spot you wouldn't have anything to do with him? I think I speak for most on this board when I say... I'm glad you are not the OC.

"You know, you've been very sick and you're taking this story very seriously. I think we better stop now." - Closes book and stands up

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Hmmmm so i guess in a new offensive system hes automatically the slot guy and Donnie Avery is crowned the number 2

Usually, yes. All things being equal, the faster of the two receivers gets the #1 or #2. Since Reggie is already the #1 then that leaves the #2.

who has a history of Injury problems

Are you talking about Avery or Collie?

Oh by the way speed has nothing to do with you being the number 2

ok.

as stated in the post above there are plenty of slow number 2 receivers in the NFL

As stated WAY above. We're not talking about the rest of the NFL. We're talking about the Colts.

Only if my emoticon worked as well as yours on this work computer.

Hit up your G6/IT folks.

[Coffeedrinker]

"You know, you've been very sick and you're taking this story very seriously. I think we better stop now." - Closes book and stands up

What in the heck are you talking about?

[bahhummbug]

I have a bad feeling that Colts FO wants to have him compete with Austin Collie in the slot. I really hope they keep Collie around, he has always been a solid receiver. Personally, I don't think Hilton has the size to be a starting WR, but could be used from time to time. What do you think? Did they just draft Collie's replacement or are they just bringing him in to serve in the return game? I'm hearing rumblings of this already on twitter.

Welker, Wes WR ACT 5'9" 185

T.Y. Hilton 5-10 183 very close

[chad72]

Welker, Wes WR ACT 5'9" 185

T.Y. Hilton 5-10 183 very close

If he has hands like Welker, that would be the clincher!!! I dont think he does, IMO.

Getting open is one thing, catching the ball at all angles is another. It is insane, how Welker twists around to make catches.

[FightLikeSin]

Welker, Wes WR ACT 5'9" 185

T.Y. Hilton 5-10 183 very close

yup, i acknowledged that earlier. Although Welker is no stranger to injuries...but that can be said about the biggest players in the NFL.

[Gavin]

I think Collie will be number 2 on the depth chart but they guys will be switched around depending on the play like I said earlier

[Rich Cannon]

What in the heck are you talking about?

I would ask Brian if hes ever played football but the answer is prob no according to his logic, "being a number 2 is about speed" Im done i think he has a fury tail. Must be a troll :clap:

[Coffeedrinker]

I would ask Brian if hes ever played football but the answer is prob no according to his logic, "being a number 2 is about speed"

That is assuming you would get an answer that (let's see how can I say this so I don't get another warning) is truthful and not an, ever so slight, exaggeration.

Im done i think he has a fury tail. Must be a troll :clap:

Good idea.

[HGRekks]

Good, don't. Almost every player in the NFL can play multiple positions. Nevertheless, Collie was the slot last year....and nobody can argue that. If he can stay healthy, he'll be the slot again this year. IMO

That's true, but it doesn't mean he can't line up outside or be the #2. The argument you seem to be making is that he'll be the #3 WR and will come off in 2 receivers sets, but you're not saying that. Saying he'll be the slot is only mentioning which position he'll play in 3 receiver sets. As I mentioned, Welker lines up wide in 2 WR sets, but moves into the slot in 3 receiver sets.

Are you saying Collie will not be out wide in 2 receiver sets, or will man the slot when it comes out? They are two different things.

If you want to argue the rest of the basis, we can do that.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

That's true, but it doesn't mean he can't line up outside or be the #2.

No, of course it doesn't.

The argument you seem to be making is that he'll be the #3 WR and will come off in 2 receivers sets, but you're not saying that.

Because that is a narrow focus that I am not addressing.

Saying he'll be the slot is only mentioning which position he'll play in 3 receiver sets. As I mentioned, Welker lines up wide in 2 WR sets, but moves into the slot in 3 receiver sets.

Again, what other teams do with their #3 receivers (that are an overwhelmingly bigger threat than Collie) has nothing to do with what the Colts will do. Is there a chance that on some plays they'll line Collie up in the #2? Of course. There's a chance they could line him up at the QB position. But for the sake of this discussion, it would be intellectually dishonest for me to assert that because Collie and the Colts "could" put him at the QB or the #2, that he'll be the starter at those positions. Neither of which have been his primary positions on this team.

Are you saying Collie will not be out wide in 2 receiver sets, or will man the slot when it comes out? They are two different things.

I think you're focused on your own questions.

If you want to argue the rest of the basis, we can do that.

Nah, I don't want to do that. I'm going to stick with my own argument; Collie will not be the starting or even primary #2 for the Indianapolis Colts. He will be the starting and primary slot receiver (if the rookie doesn't beat him out...which I doubt).

[Superman]

We're not talking about other receivers in this league...we're talking about other receivers on this team. And he is not faster than Donnie Avery.

...so! He is not a better route runner or have better hands or more durable than Reggie, so what is your point?

He is slower than Donnie Avery.

Sounds good to me.

Sounds good to me.

So much double-talk. It matters that Reggie is a good route-runner and has good hands, but it doesn't matter than Collie is a good route-runner and has good hands? Does it matter than Donnie Avery is not a very good route-runner, and only has so-so hands?

Because he is not faster than Donnie Avery and has no identifiable advantage over Avery. Both are starting from scratch healthy and in a new offense with a new QB, I give the advantage to the guy who can best stretch the field.

Seems pretty clear.

It's kind of silly of you to dismiss all of Collie's attributes as a receiver, specifically his route-running and pass-catching, simply because Donnie Avery runs faster. Speed doesn't make one player better than another, at any position. If all other things were equal, it would come down to who runs faster. They're not, though; Collie is the superior route-runner and pass-catcher. You say he has no identifiable advantage over Avery, and that makes me think that you've never seen the two play. Or else you don't value pass-catching and route-running in your wide receivers, which is, again, silly.

[Superman]

If he has hands like Welker, that would be the clincher!!! I dont think he does, IMO.

Getting open is one thing, catching the ball at all angles is another. It is insane, how Welker twists around to make catches.

Welker's hands didn't save him from getting released by the Chargers and Dolphins. It wasn't until he went to New England, playing alongside Randy Moss and catching passes from Tom Brady, that he suddenly was known for having good hands. Welker is a really good receiver, no doubt, but he's better now than he was in 2007. And I'm sure Hilton will be better in five years than he is now. But he's starting from abetter place than Welker did, being faster and playing in an offense that (I'm assuming) will utilize speedy receivers in several different ways.

[chad72]

Welker's hands didn't save him from getting released by the Chargers and Dolphins. It wasn't until he went to New England, playing alongside Randy Moss and catching passes from Tom Brady, that he suddenly was known for having good hands. Welker is a really good receiver, no doubt, but he's better now than he was in 2007. And I'm sure Hilton will be better in five years than he is now. But he's starting from abetter place than Welker did, being faster and playing in an offense that (I'm assuming) will utilize speedy receivers in several different ways.

Yep, agree, it is all about the QB. But then, Belichick knew to spot Welker's talent better as a division rival than the Dolphins themselves, smh!!!

[Superman]

Yep, agree, it is all about the QB. But then, Belichick knew to spot Welker's talent better as a division rival than the Dolphins themselves, smh!!!

I'd have to agree. I was thinking that Welker was just one of the 8 receivers they signed that season, but they actually gave him a five year deal with a pretty sizable signing bonus. They definitely had a big role in mind for him.

[chad72]

I'd have to agree. I was thinking that Welker was just one of the 8 receivers they signed that season, but they actually gave him a five year deal with a pretty sizable signing bonus. They definitely had a big role in mind for him.

I remember Belichick saying that whenever they played him, he was hard to cover consistently, forget the fact the QB could not get the ball to him. Reminds me of Ron Harper signing by the Chicago Bulls. He defended Jordan and others well as a member of the Cleveland Cavaliers, active hands in passing lanes and all. So, the Bulls turn around and sign him and add to their glory days!!!

[Fx Stryker]

He's as fast as plenty of #2 receivers in the league. He's as fast as Reggie. He's run past many corners in this league already, with or without Manning throwing to him. He ran past Devin McCourty, on the outside, last season.

So, even though Collie is as fast as Reggie, his speed precludes him from being a #2 receiver. But Reggie can be a #1?

Austin Collie is not slow. He doesn't have 4.3 speed, but he's fast enough to play on the outside. I don't know what everyone means when they say #2 receiver, but for me the #2 receiver refers to the guy who is on the field in two-receiver sets. When we use two tight ends and a running back, it will be Reggie and another receiver, and I think that other receiver should be Collie. He's shown his ability to get open and catch the ball, whether it's in two- or three-receiver sets, whether it's on the outside or in the slot, whether Manning is throwing to him or someone else. He's easily our second best receiver (and I felt this way even when Garcon was here), and he should get the reps that a #2 gets.

If Donnie Avery stays healthy and shows that he deserves that spot more than Austin does, then I'm all for it. But that seems like a leap in logic. Avery was pegged as a reserve receiver / return specialist coming into the league, a player who didn't quite develop as a pass catcher in college until his senior year. His first two years in the league, that's the role he played, without any indication that he should be a #2 receiver or could handle that duty in the NFL.

The job should go to whoever performs better, and it should be an open competition all year. But I don't get why people continue to downgrade Austin Collie. He's a really good receiver.

Austin has great route running skills. It helps him get past the secondary easier than Pierre's speed did. He easily deserves #2 right now.

[BrentMc11]

I remember Belichick saying that whenever they played him, he was hard to cover consistently, forget the fact the QB could not get the ball to him. Reminds me of Ron Harper signing by the Chicago Bulls. He defended Jordan and others well as a member of the Cleveland Cavaliers, active hands in passing lanes and all. So, the Bulls turn around and sign him and add to their glory days!!!

Good point Chad72, I think we drafted and signed 'mismatch' problems for our opponents....TEs and fast 'waterbug' receivers. Love the analogy on Ron Harper. Well done!!

[The Peytonator]

Austin Collie has potential/ability to be a #1 receiver with a competent QB that looks his way more than twice a game.

I love the guy. After I get my Pat Angerer home jersey, I'd like to get an Austin Collie road one.

[Fx Stryker]

Thank you for reinforcing my point. The fast guy is the #2.

No it's not. Especially not for the Colts. Marvin, rout runner. Reg, rout runner. Stokley, route runner. Clark, Route runner. Collie, rout runner. Pierre, speedster. Probably the worst in those names also. The #2 should be the second best receiver.

[chad72]

Good point Chad72, I think we drafted and signed 'mismatch' problems for our opponents....TEs and fast 'waterbug' receivers. Love the analogy on Ron Harper. Well done!!

I was thinking at that time "you have Pippen with long arms that can guard the 2 and 3 (or literally anyone but center it seemed like based on matchups, he even took on Mark Jackson vs the Pacers like he did with Magic vs Lakers), now you have another set of "active hands" defender in Ron Harper". No wonder the Jazz went for a playoff history low of 54 in one of their playoff games vs Bulls.

[The Peytonator]

No it's not. Especially not for the Colts. Marvin, rout runner. Reg, rout runner. Stokley, route runner. Clark, Route runner. Collie, rout runner. Pierre, speedster. Probably the worst in those names also. The #2 should be the second best receiver.

Well Marvin was both a speedster and a route runner, but your point is a good one......

Man I wish we still had Marvin in his prime.

[Fx Stryker]

Well Marvin was both a speedster and a route runner, but your point is a good one......

Man I wish we still had Marvin in his prime.

That way he can get into the tussle matches with Ike Taylor again! Remember that Monday night game? First time I ever seen Marvin not be quiet.

[Superman]

I was thinking at that time "you have Pippen with long arms that can guard the 2 and 3 (or literally anyone but center it seemed like based on matchups, he even took on Mark Jackson vs the Pacers like he did with Magic vs Lakers), now you have another set of "active hands" defender in Ron Harper". No wonder the Jazz went for a playoff history low of 54 in one of their playoff games vs Bulls.

I watched that entire game. It was just clear how dominant they were.

[The Peytonator]

That way he can get into the tussle matches with Ike Taylor again! Remember that Monday night game? First time I ever seen Marvin not be quiet.

Marvin was indeed a bad man. I know I wouldn't want to mess with him in a Philadelphia bar......I hear it doesn't end well for those who do.

[Superman]

That way he can get into the tussle matches with Ike Taylor again! Remember that Monday night game? First time I ever seen Marvin not be quiet.

Didn't he catch the first pass of the game for an 80 yard touchdown? Or was that a different Monday night game?

[BrentMc11]

I was thinking at that time "you have Pippen with long arms that can guard the 2 and 3 (or literally anyone but center it seemed like based on matchups, he even took on Mark Jackson vs the Pacers like he did with Magic vs Lakers), now you have another set of "active hands" defender in Ron Harper". No wonder the Jazz went for a playoff history low of 54 in one of their playoff games vs Bulls.

I see Superman saw that game and so did I! Amazing how sports can translate.

I also notice folks bringing up my man number 88. Can we bring back the slant with Hilton? I can see him lining up in the slot, backfield.....I hope his hands are better than the experts say. Again great analogies Chad!!

[Fx Stryker]

Didn't he catch the first pass of the game for an 80 yard touchdown? Or was that a different Monday night game?

Same one. I think that's why Ike had bad feeling the whole game. Then Marv put him in his place. (SHHHH no one has to know Marv was the one being thrown around)

Marvin was indeed a bad man. I know I wouldn't want to mess with him in a Philadelphia bar......I hear it doesn't end well for those who do.

Nah, Marv's a good guy. We don't need to go down that road.

I see Superman saw that game and so did I! Amazing how sports can translate.

I also notice folks bringing up my man number 88. Can we bring back the slant with Hilton? I can see him lining up in the slot, backfield.....I hope his hands are better than the experts say. Again great analogies Chad!!

Ahh Marv ran it the best. Catch then fall over in the fetal position.

[chad72]

Didn't he catch the first pass of the game for an 80 yard touchdown? Or was that a different Monday night game?

That has to be the one, the 2005 MNF game. I was there, my friend who had season tickets decided to be generous and take me along for free. The first pass, a gasp of silence when the pass was in the air, preceded by play action because they had to respect our run game then, and then boom, the pass drops, touchdown Marvin, and confetti flies.

That gasp of silence made the end result all worthwhile, fantastic to watch as a spectator, and then come back the next day to work to co-workers asking me "did you see that"? Oh yes, I did!!!

Peyton sure has a habit on MNF going for the big one right off the bat, doesn't he? Recently, he did that with that 80 yard TD pass to Dallas Clark vs the Dolphins, though most of it was YAC.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

So much double-talk.

Really, how so?

It matters that Reggie is a good route-runner and has good hands, but it doesn't matter than Collie is a good route-runner and has good hands?

Not when you're implying that Collie is as good as Reggie (which the respondee was). Reggie is lights out better at route running and hands. Really not sure how anyone could say or imply anything else.

Does it matter than Donnie Avery is not a very good route-runner, and only has so-so hands?

Really, where'd you read that at?

It's kind of silly of you to dismiss all of Collie's attributes as a receiver, specifically his route-running and pass-catching, simply because Donnie Avery runs faster.

I have done no such thing. I have simply exalted Avery's speed where it belongs in the order of skills required to be a #1 or #2.

Speed doesn't make one player better than another, at any position.

Unfortunately for you, the exact opposite is true. Collie ran better routes and had better hands than Pierre Garcon. But Garcon was the #2. Garcon just got a huge payday...want to wager that Collie'll get the same or better? If not, why? If his skill set is so much better than raw speed, surely he will get a serious payday.

If all other things were equal, it would come down to who runs faster. They're not, though; Collie is the superior route-runner and pass-catcher

As he was last season....and every season he has been here. And still he is the slot. Reality speaks for itself.

You say he has no identifiable advantage over Avery, and that makes me think that you've never seen the two play.

ok.

Or else you don't value pass-catching and route-running in your wide receivers

Oh I value it just fine. I just place it in it's proper place when looking for a #2. Speed tops the list.

[Coffeedrinker]

I have done no such thing. I have simply exalted Avery's speed where it belongs in the order of skills required to be a #1 or #2.

Unfortunately for you, the exact opposite is true. Collie ran better routes and had better hands than Pierre Garcon. But Garcon was the #2. Garcon just got a huge payday...want to wager that Collie'll get the same or better? If not, why? If his skill set is so much better than raw speed, surely he will get a serious payday.

So using that "logic" why did Avery not get a huge payday?

As far if Collie will get the same? Let's wait until after the season, his concussions are a concern but if he goes all season without a concussion then I would wager his payday will be as good as Garcon's.

[Superman]

Really, how so?

Not when you're implying that Collie is as good as Reggie (which the respondee was). Reggie is lights out better at route running and hands. Really not sure how anyone could say or imply anything else.

Really, where'd you read that at?

I have done no such thing. I have simply exalted Avery's speed where it belongs in the order of skills required to be a #1 or #2.

Unfortunately for you, the exact opposite is true. Collie ran better routes and had better hands than Pierre Garcon. But Garcon was the #2. Garcon just got a huge payday...want to wager that Collie'll get the same or better? If not, why? If his skill set is so much better than raw speed, surely he will get a serious payday.

As he was last season....and every season he has been here. And still he is the slot. Reality speaks for itself.

ok.

Oh I value it just fine. I just place it in it's proper place when looking for a #2. Speed tops the list.

We're too far apart. You see things through a different prism than I do, as it pertains to the receiver depth chart and the players in question.

I look forward to training camp.

[YOUR GM]

Since when did speed become the end-all-be-all in deciding who the #1 and 2 receivers are?... Jeez, Ted Ginn must be sitting at home ticked right now because he never got that memo.