Week 8 Reich Grievance MEGA THREAD (merge)

[DougDew]

2 minutes ago, TimetobringDfence! said:

But I believe in our line run blocking well... Reed is great at pulling out and getting down field...we have the guards to really hit the outsides hard with ease...

I expect it to improve as Fisher and Smith get into better rhythm.  Its been kind of a mess with the injuries and Glow and Kelly dropping off some,

[TimetobringDfence!]

35 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I expect it to improve as Fisher and Smith get into better rhythm.  Its been kind of a mess with the injuries and Glow and Kelly dropping off some,

We just need Frank to allow the Run game to control the tempo of games until it fails...if it ain't broke don't fix it...

[TimetobringDfence!]

Just now, TimetobringDfence! said:

We just need Frank to allow the Run game to control the tempo of games until it fails...if it ain't broke don't fix it...

If your run game is more reliable than your deep passing game. And you have 7mins left in OT against your division rivals and playoffs are on the line. A field goal wins it, what's your next move...

[Superman]

On 11/3/2021 at 1:52 AM, stitches said:

 

 

This is what I was talking about. Raw numbers that look shocking don't tell the story. Never during that game did I feel like "damn, Frank, run the ball more".... it felt like a well called game to me for the most part(again, with some very specific objection on certain plays rather than a general objection about him going too pass-heavy). 

 

There were several situations where I wanted to see a run called, but we threw. Also, pass frequency over expected doesn't adjust for shaky QB vs great RB. It also doesn't account for 'refs call holding every time the RB gets loose,' so I guess that cuts both ways.

 

I definitely wouldn't call it a well called game. But that's not just about 51 pass attempts. It's more about a general icing of your best player.

[EastStreet]

26 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

There were several situations where I wanted to see a run called, but we threw. Also, pass frequency over expected doesn't adjust for shaky QB vs great RB. It also doesn't account for 'refs call holding every time the RB gets loose,' so I guess that cuts both ways.

 

I definitely wouldn't call it a well called game. But that's not just about 51 pass attempts. It's more about a general icing of your best player.

It's three big things for me....

1. icing your best player like you said
2. not adjusting to more running when you can see your QB is not "on" today while at the same time having good success in the running game
3. Under 24% run ratio is an extreme outlier in general for any team not playing from behind, but it's even more extreme given we started up 14, and just in general our personnel make up (one of best RBs, down WRs). 

[Superman]

15 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

It's three big things for me....

1. icing your best player like you said
2. not adjusting to more running when you can see your QB is not "on" today while at the same time having good success in the running game
3. Under 24% run ratio is an extreme outlier in general for any team not playing from behind, but it's even more extreme given we started up 14, and just in general our personnel make up (one of best RBs, down WRs). 

 

The run/pass ratio was way off, but context provides relevant details that make it less of an issue for me. 

 

First, several holding calls that turned run/neutral situations into pass situations. Second, an end of half scoring drive, and an end of 4th quarter scoring drive, both pass heavy situations. 

 

But yeah, it does indicate that the offense wasn't balanced, and what makes it worse is that the passing game wasn't efficient, even without the two picks. If Wentz was on fire, who cares? He wasn't on fire, though.

[EastStreet]

2 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

The run/pass ratio was way off, but context provides relevant details that make it less of an issue for me. 

 

First, several holding calls that turned run/neutral situations into pass situations. Second, an end of half scoring drive, and an end of 4th quarter scoring drive, both pass heavy situations. 

 

But yeah, it does indicate that the offense wasn't balanced, and what makes it worse is that the passing game wasn't efficient, even without the two picks. If Wentz was on fire, who cares? He wasn't on fire, though.

 

I looked at the play by play, and almost posted a series by series thread. I agree on a few of the comments you made above, but overall I saw a ton of opportunity to run more. Every first down you have a choice (in most situations). Every start of series you have a choice (in most situations).

 

When I looked at how we started each series out, 7 of 10 started out with passes IIRC. And the end of half FG drive started with plenty of time, and plenty of time outs. And the end of reg time drive started with like a minute and a half, and 2 or 3 time outs. I understand that one, but that's one of the only clear cases for a "needed" pass to start a drive. So even removing that one, 6 or 9 series started with passes.

 

I just think the in game situation and personnel impacts clearly should have pointed Frank in a different way on several occasions. But he just kept chopping wood. 

[Superman]

3 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

I looked at the play by play, and almost posted a series by series thread. I agree on a few of the comments you made above, but overall I saw a ton of opportunity to run more. Every first down you have a choice (in most situations). Every start of series you have a choice (in most situations).

 

When I looked at how we started each series out, 7 of 10 started out with passes IIRC. And the end of half FG drive started with plenty of time, and plenty of time outs. And the end of reg time drive started with like a minute and a half, and 2 or 3 time outs. I understand that one, but that's one of the only clear cases for a "needed" pass to start a drive. So even removing that one, 6 or 9 series started with passes.

 

I just think the in game situation and personnel impacts clearly should have pointed Frank in a different way on several occasions. But he just kept chopping wood. 

 

I'm not going to nitpick game neutral decisions unless we always do the same thing in those situations. I don't have a problem with 7/10 passes on the first play of the drive, or 7/10 runs. 

 

You can hindsight second guess basically any play call that doesn't work, which is pointless. I agree that the play calling wasn't balanced, but the run/pass ratio was influenced by obvious factors, and those need to be acknowledged rather than just saying "24% run ratio."

[DougDew]

Here are the Colts drives.   Where in these series' would it have been better to run given down and distance?  

 

1st & 10 at IND 18

(14:56 - 1st) (Shotgun) C.Wentz pass short right to J.Taylor to TEN 45 for 37 yards (E.Molden).

1st & 10 at TEN 45

(14:11 - 1st) (Shotgun) C.Wentz pass short right to M.Pittman to TEN 40 for 5 yards (D.Long; J.Jenkins).

2nd & 5 at TEN 40

(13:32 - 1st) J.Taylor right end to TEN 38 for 2 yards (H.Landry; D.Autry).

3rd & 3 at TEN 38

(12:47 - 1st) (Shotgun) C.Wentz pass incomplete deep right to M.Pittman.

4th & 3 at TEN 38

(12:42 - 1st) (Shotgun) C.Wentz pass short left to N.Hines to TEN 32 for 6 yards (D.Cruikshank).

1st & 10 at TEN 32

(12:05 - 1st) (Shotgun) C.Wentz pass short left to M.Pittman to TEN 24 for 8 yards (G.Mabin, B.Dupree).

2nd & 2 at TEN 24

(11:26 - 1st) (Shotgun) J.Taylor up the middle to TEN 17 for 7 yards (H.Landry). TEN-J.Simmons was injured during the play.

1st & 10 at TEN 17

(10:59 - 1st) C.Wentz pass incomplete short right [H.Landry].

2nd & 10 at TEN 17

(10:52 - 1st) J.Taylor right tackle to TEN 14 for 3 yards (N.Jones).

3rd & 7 at TEN 14

(10:07 - 1st) (Shotgun) J.Taylor left guard to TEN 2 for 12 yards (L.Murchison).

1st & 2 at TEN 2

(9:40 - 1st) (Shotgun) C.Wentz pass incomplete short middle.

2nd & Goal at TEN 2

(9:36 - 1st) (Shotgun) C.Wentz pass short middle to K.Granson to TEN 2 for no gain (M.Rice).

3rd & 2 at TEN 2

(8:51 - 1st) (Shotgun) C.Wentz pass incomplete short right to M.Pittman (K.Byard).

4th & Goal at TEN 2

(8:41 - 1st) Michael Pittman Jr. Pass From Carson Wentz for 2 Yrds M.Badgley extra point is GOOD, Center-L.Rhodes, Holder-R.Sanchez.

 

Score 7-0. then a pick and a score now 14-0.  What are your complaints so far?

 

1st & 10 at IND 32

(6:03 - 1st) J.Taylor right end to IND 43 for 11 yards (J.Jenkins, M.Rice).

1st & 10 at IND 43

(5:21 - 1st) J.Taylor up the middle to IND 43 for no gain (D.Long, E.Ankou).

2nd & 10 at IND 43

(4:39 - 1st) (Shotgun) C.Wentz pass short left to T.Hilton to TEN 47 for 10 yards (G.Mabin).

1st & 10 at TEN 47

(3:54 - 1st) C.Wentz pass incomplete deep left to M.Pittman.  Is it wrong to pass to Pittman on 1st down ?

2nd & 10 at TEN 47

(3:48 - 1st) (Shotgun) C.Wentz pass short middle to J.Doyle to TEN 40 for 7 yards (M.Rice).

3rd & 3 at TEN 40

(3:06 - 1st) (Shotgun) C.Wentz pass incomplete deep left to T.Hilton.

4th & 3 at TEN 40

(2:59 - 1st) (Shotgun) C.Wentz pass incomplete deep left to M.Pittman.

 

That was the famous 4th down midfield fail.  We know this was a bad move for Frank.  

 

Titans drive and score, 14-7

 

1st & 10 at IND 32

(12:01 - 2nd) (Shotgun) J.Taylor left end to TEN 48 for 20 yards (A.Hooker). PENALTY on IND-B.Smith, Offensive Holding, 10 yards, enforced at IND 32 - No Play.

1st & 20 at IND 22

(11:30 - 2nd) (Shotgun) C.Wentz pass short left to J.Taylor to IND 29 for 7 yards (D.Long).

2nd & 13 at IND 29

(10:47 - 2nd) (Shotgun) C.Wentz pass short middle to Z.Pascal to IND 36 for 7 yards (M.Rice).

3rd & 6 at IND 36

(10:04 - 2nd) (Shotgun) C.Wentz sacked at IND 29 for -7 yards (H.Landry).

4th & 13 at IND 29

(9:14 - 2nd) R.Sanchez punts 63 yards to TEN 8, Center-L.Rhodes, downed by IND-M.Adams.

 

Complaints?

 

Titans have the ball, Lewis pick, then fumble.  Titans then score, now 14-14.

 

Next drive: I wont detail here because its lots of plays.  Just before halftime. Starts of with consecutive runs called to JT on 1st and 2nd down. Second down long run was called back.  JT out for a breather. Hines runs up the gut a couple of times.  Then JT gets a few small runs.  Wentz some short passes. Drive stalls at the 16, FG.  Half time. Score now 17-14.  Complaints?

 

Titans score, now 17-21.

 

1st & 10 at IND 25

(7:42 - 3rd) (Shotgun) C.Wentz pass short right to N.Hines to IND 34 for 9 yards (K.Byard, M.Rice). TEN-D.Autry was injured during the play.

2nd & 1 at IND 34

(7:07 - 3rd) J.Taylor right guard to IND 39 for 5 yards (B.Dupree).

1st & 10 at IND 39

(6:29 - 3rd) J.Taylor right tackle to IND 43 for 4 yards (D.Long, E.Ankou).

2nd & 6 at IND 43

(5:46 - 3rd) (Shotgun) C.Wentz pass incomplete short middle to M.Alie-Cox (K.Byard).

3rd & 6 at IND 43

(5:41 - 3rd) (Shotgun) C.Wentz pass incomplete deep middle to M.Alie-Cox.

4th & 6 at IND 43

(5:28 - 3rd) R.Sanchez punts 46 yards to TEN 11, Center-L.Rhodes. C.Rogers to TEN 13 for 2 yards (A.Dulin).  Complaints?

 

Still 17-21.

 

1st & 10 at IND 43

(3:42 - 3rd) J.Taylor right end to IND 45 for 2 yards (J.Simmons).

2nd & 8 at IND 45

(3:00 - 3rd) (Shotgun) C.Wentz pass short left to T.Hilton to TEN 49 for 6 yards (A.Hooker).

3rd & 2 at TEN 49

(2:16 - 3rd) (Shotgun) J.Taylor left guard to TEN 46 for 3 yards (K.Byard).

1st & 10 at TEN 46

(1:33 - 3rd) C.Wentz pass incomplete deep left to Z.Pascal. PENALTY on TEN-A.Hooker, Defensive Pass Interference, 41 yards, enforced at TEN 46 - No Play.

1st & Goal at TEN 5

(1:21 - 3rd) Jack Doyle Pass From Carson Wentz for 5 Yrds M.Badgley extra point is GOOD, Center-L.Rhodes, Holder-R.Sanchez. 

 

Complaints?  Score now 24-21  TEN FG Score now 24-24.

 

1st & 10 at IND 25

(11:15 - 4th) C.Wentz pass incomplete deep left to A.Dulin.

2nd & 10 at IND 25

(11:06 - 4th) (Shotgun) C.Wentz pass incomplete short right to Z.Pascal.

3rd & 10 at IND 25

(11:00 - 4th) (Shotgun) C.Wentz pass short right to M.Pittman to IND 23 for -2 yards (C.Jackson; D.Cruikshank) [D.Long]. TEN-D.Cruikshank was injured during the play. PENALTY on TEN-J.Simmons, Unnecessary Roughness, 15 yards, enforced at IND 23.

1st & 10 at IND 38

(10:28 - 4th) PENALTY on IND-J.Taylor, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at IND 38 - No Play.

1st & 15 at IND 33

(10:28 - 4th) (Shotgun) C.Wentz pass short middle to Z.Pascal to IND 44 for 11 yards (M.Rice, D.Long).

2nd & 4 at IND 44

(10:05 - 4th) (No Huddle, Shotgun) C.Wentz pass short left to M.Pittman pushed ob at IND 47 for 3 yards (G.Mabin).

3rd & 1 at IND 47

(9:31 - 4th) C.Wentz up the middle to IND 48 for 1 yard (D.Autry).

1st & 10 at IND 48

(8:46 - 4th) C.Wentz pass incomplete short left to T.Hilton (D.Long). IND-T.Hilton was injured during the play.

2nd & 10 at IND 48

(8:39 - 4th) (Shotgun) C.Wentz pass incomplete short left to Z.Pascal [J.Simmons].

3rd & 10 at IND 48

(8:35 - 4th) (Shotgun) C.Wentz sacked at IND 39 for -9 yards (sack split by D.Autry and D.Long). PENALTY on TEN-C.Jackson, Defensive Holding, 5 yards, enforced at IND 48 - No Play.

1st & 10 at TEN 47

(8:06 - 4th) (Shotgun) J.Taylor right tackle to TEN 41 for 6 yards (K.Byard, A.Hooker).

2nd & 4 at TEN 41

(7:26 - 4th) (Shotgun) J.Taylor right guard to TEN 36 for 5 yards (N.Jones).

1st & 10 at TEN 36

(6:46 - 4th) (Shotgun) J.Taylor right end to TEN 32 for 4 yards (H.Landry).

2nd & 6 at TEN 32

(6:09 - 4th) M.Mack left guard to TEN 31 for 1 yard (D.Long). PENALTY on IND-R.Kelly, Offensive Holding, 10 yards, enforced at TEN 32 - No Play.

2nd & 16 at TEN 42

(5:44 - 4th) (Shotgun) C.Wentz pass incomplete short middle to N.Hines (E.Molden).

3rd & 16 at TEN 42

(5:39 - 4th) (Shotgun) C.Wentz pass incomplete short left to A.Dulin.

4th & 16 at TEN 42

(5:25 - 4th) R.Sanchez punts 35 yards to TEN 7, Center-L.Rhodes. C.Rogers pushed ob at TEN 26 for 19 yards (Z.Franklin).

 

Complaints?  Notice 3 straight runs to JT, then a holding call.  Did Wentz check out of runs for short passes or incompletes or scrambles?

 

1st & 10 at IND 8

(1:26 - 4th) (Shotgun) C.Wentz pass short middle INTERCEPTED by E.Molden [B.Dupree] at IND 2. E.Molden for 2 yards, TOUCHDOWN.R.Bullock extra point is GOOD, Center-M.Cox, Holder-B.Kern. 

 

Complaints?  Yeah, bad call, bad execution.   Score 24-31

 

1st & 10 at IND 25

(1:26 - 4th) (Shotgun) C.Wentz pass short middle to Z.Pascal to IND 34 for 9 yards (C.Jackson).

2nd & 1 at IND 34

(1:08 - 4th) (No Huddle, Shotgun) C.Wentz pass incomplete short right to M.Pittman (J.Jenkins). PENALTY on IND-B.Smith, Illegal Formation, 5 yards, enforced at IND 34 - No Play.

2nd & 6 at IND 29

(1:02 - 4th) (Shotgun) C.Wentz pass incomplete deep middle to A.Dulin.

3rd & 6 at IND 29

(0:56 - 4th) (Shotgun) C.Wentz pass short left to M.Pittman to IND 37 for 8 yards (B.Borders). PENALTY on IND-C.Reed, Illegal Use of Hands, 10 yards, enforced at IND 29 - No Play.

3rd & 16 at IND 19

(0:51 - 4th) (Shotgun) C.Wentz pass deep middle to M.Pittman to TEN 43 for 38 yards (A.Hooker; B.Borders).

(0:37 - 4th) Timeout #2 by IND at 00:37.

1st & 10 at TEN 43

(0:37 - 4th) (Shotgun) C.Wentz pass incomplete short right to M.Alie-Cox.

2nd & 10 at TEN 43

(0:32 - 4th) (Shotgun) C.Wentz pass incomplete deep right to A.Dulin. PENALTY on TEN-K.Byard, Defensive Pass Interference, 42 yards, enforced at TEN 43 - No Play.

(0:25 - 4th) Timeout #1 by TEN at 00:25.

1st & Goal at TEN 1

(0:22 - 4th) Jonathan Taylor 1 Yard Rush M.Badgley extra point is GOOD, Center-L.Rhodes, Holder-R.Sanchez.

 

Complaints?  Score 31-31  Now to OT:

 

1st & 10 at IND 30

(9:54 - OT) J.Taylor left guard to IND 34 for 4 yards (D.Long, D.Autry).

2nd & 6 at IND 34

(9:13 - OT) C.Wentz pass incomplete short left to J.Taylor (M.Rice) [D.Long].

3rd & 6 at IND 34

(9:06 - OT) (Shotgun) C.Wentz pass incomplete deep middle to Z.Pascal (C.Jackson).

4th & 6 at IND 34

(8:55 - OT) R.Sanchez punts 38 yards to TEN 28, Center-L.Rhodes, out of bounds.

 

Complaints? (JT targeted 66% of the plays)

 

1st & 10 at IND 15

(7:27 - OT) C.Wentz pass incomplete short right to A.Dulin.

2nd & 10 at IND 15

(7:22 - OT) (Shotgun) C.Wentz pass short left to M.Pittman to IND 23 for 8 yards (C.Jackson, D.Long).

3rd & 2 at IND 23

(6:41 - OT) (Shotgun) C.Wentz right end to IND 27 for 4 yards (M.Rice).

1st & 10 at IND 27

(5:48 - OT) C.Wentz pass deep left intended for M.Pittman INTERCEPTED by K.Byard at IND 46. K.Byard to IND 32 for 14 yards (M.Alie-Cox).  Is it wrong to pass to Pittman on 1st down?  And JT was open.

 

Lazy stats are a joke and do a disservice to the forum.  This thread is a joke!

 

 

 

[EastStreet]

13 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I'm not going to nitpick game neutral decisions unless we always do the same thing in those situations. I don't have a problem with 7/10 passes on the first play of the drive, or 7/10 runs. 

 

You can hindsight second guess basically any play call that doesn't work, which is pointless. I agree that the play calling wasn't balanced, but the run/pass ratio was influenced by obvious factors, and those need to be acknowledged rather than just saying "24% run ratio."

 

Saying 35%, or 40%, might be lazy.... 24% is punch you in the nose extreme. It's almost 10pts lower than the lowest team AVG, and those teams that are at the bottom, don't have our personnel and aren't built like we are.

 

So... you can't explain it away with "game neutral" buzz words. I used series starters as just an example, but I can post a deep dive per drive if you'd like. I already ran through every series myself, and there's plenty to question. It's not just nitpicking. There was simple and obvious failure to adjust. 

 

Game neutral situations given Wentz was off, should have trended the other way. It's that simple. Did Reich not recognize? And the fact he acts like he doesn't know the ratio is pretty jaw dropping. Each game plan has target pitch counts for guys. Not saying he need to know the exact #s when questioned, but he should have a ball park idea. 

 

[Superman]

3 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

Saying 35%, or 40%, might be lazy.... 24% is punch you in the nose extreme. It's almost 10pts lower than the lowest team AVG, and those teams that are at the bottom, don't have our personnel and aren't built like we are.

 

So... you can't explain it away with "game neutral" buzz words. I used series starters as just an example, but I can post a deep dive per drive if you'd like. I already ran through every series myself, and there's plenty to question. It's not just nitpicking. There was simple and obvious failure to adjust. 

 

Game neutral situations given Wentz was off, should have trended the other way. It's that simple. Did Reich not recognize? And the fact he acts like he doesn't know the ratio is pretty jaw dropping. Each game plan has target pitch counts for guys. Not saying he need to know the exact #s when questioned, but he should have a ball park idea. 

 

 

If you say so. Grind this complaint into the ground, over and over again, even with people who openly agree that THE PLAY CALLING WAS NOT BALANCED. Keep going. Have at it.

 

And I love how "game neutral" is a buzz word. What do you want to call the first play of a series? Are you supposed to pass, or supposed to run? It's not third and 15, it's not 2nd and 1, we're not talking about the clock, the score isn't a factor. It's game neutral, not dictated by other factors in the game. Call it what you want.

[EastStreet]

6 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

If you say so. Grind this complaint into the ground, over and over again, even with people who openly agree that THE PLAY CALLING WAS NOT BALANCED. Keep going. Have at it.

 

And I love how "game neutral" is a buzz word. What do you want to call the first play of a series? Are you supposed to pass, or supposed to run? It's not third and 15, it's not 2nd and 1, we're not talking about the clock, the score isn't a factor. It's game neutral, not dictated by other factors in the game. Call it what you want.

 

You implied saying 24% was akin to lazy in your previous reply. It's not. It's an extreme under any norm, and hyper extreme given the way our team is built, what the FO says we are, what we chose to do up 14, and what we chose to do given Wentz's play after some early success.

 

"Game Neutral" as a term to most (not all) implies it's a decision that can go one way or the other, or it doesn't matter. But also assumes variables (players, situations) are neutral. When you are up 14, or when your QB is playing erratic, or when you have one of the best rushing weapons in the league, I'm not sure that game neutral is really a neutral type of decision. While in it's purest sense it's a great term, but in context of the game, it seems like an excuse for failure to adjust given the obvious external factors happening.

 

 

[CoachLite]

35 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

You implied saying 24% was akin to lazy in your previous reply. It's not. It's an extreme under any norm, and hyper extreme given the way our team is built, what the FO says we are, what we chose to do up 14, and what we chose to do given Wentz's play after some early success.

 

"Game Neutral" as a term to most (not all) implies it's a decision that can go one way or the other, or it doesn't matter. But also assumes variables (players, situations) are neutral. When you are up 14, or when your QB is playing erratic, or when you have one of the best rushing weapons in the league, I'm not sure that game neutral is really a neutral type of decision. While in it's purest sense it's a great term, but in context of the game, it seems like an excuse for failure to adjust given the obvious external factors happening.

 

 

In other words, "Game Neutral" never really applies. Context is everything.

[Superman]

24 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

You implied saying 24% was akin to lazy in your previous reply. It's not. It's an extreme under any norm, and hyper extreme given the way our team is built, what the FO says we are, what we chose to do up 14, and what we chose to do given Wentz's play after some early success.

 

"Game Neutral" as a term to most (not all) implies it's a decision that can go one way or the other, or it doesn't matter. But also assumes variables (players, situations) are neutral. When you are up 14, or when your QB is playing erratic, or when you have one of the best rushing weapons in the league, I'm not sure that game neutral is really a neutral type of decision. While in it's purest sense it's a great term, but in context of the game, it seems like an excuse for failure to adjust given the obvious external factors happening.

 

I didn't call it lazy, that's your inference, but it's not what I was saying. I said we should acknowledge the context. Then I said, even with context, I think we lacked balance.

 

As for up 14, there was only one offensive possession where that was the case. On that possession, I absolutely agree, we should have run the ball. I'm pretty sure that's the possession where we passed on 3rd and 3, and again on 4th and 3. (Further context, that possession started halfway through the first quarter. It's not like we're late in the game, up 14 points.)

 

Game neutral doesn't assume all variables are neutral. It's specific to game conditions. It seems obvious to me that team specific variables -- Is your QB hot? Is your RB hurt? Is your OL struggling? -- still need to be accounted for.

 

But unless your argument is that we need to run the ball on the first play of drives more often -- and I think that's kind of missing the point -- the 7/10 (or 6/9) angle isn't a big deal to me. Like I said, I don't care if we run or pass on the first play, 1st and 10, unless we're always doing one or the other, with poor results. I care about overall balance, rhythm in play calling, dictating to the defense, emphasizing your strengths, etc. I'm not highly concerned with the specific play call on the first play of each possession. 

[EastStreet]

7 minutes ago, CoachLite said:

In other words, "Game Neutral" never really applies. Context is everything.

I think the term if fair to describe situations in a pure sense. It's not a term I would really use to excuse failure to adjust due to obvious surrounding conditions that impact the neutral nature of things. 

[JediXMan]

My fantasy opponent bought into the Mike White hype already lol. 

[EastStreet]

9 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I didn't call it lazy, that's your inference, but it's not what I was saying. I said we should acknowledge the context. Then I said, even with context, I think we lacked balance.

Apologies, but "just saying "24% run ratio." implied laziness to me. 

9 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

As for up 14, there was only one offensive possession where that was the case. On that possession, I absolutely agree, we should have run the ball. I'm pretty sure that's the possession where we passed on 3rd and 3, and again on 4th and 3. (Further context, that possession started halfway through the first quarter. It's not like we're late in the game, up 14 points.)

The lack of run on those two downs was horrendous IMO, and of course we know Frank owned up to it. 

9 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Game neutral doesn't assume all variables are neutral. It's specific to game conditions. It seems obvious to me that team specific variables -- Is your QB hot? Is your RB hurt? Is your OL struggling? -- still need to be accounted for.

It seemed to me that you were suggesting you were giving him a pass on game neutral situations, regardless of context when you said you weren't going to nitpick game neutral situations. I think it's very fair to critique those given context.  

9 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

But unless your argument is that we need to run the ball on the first play of drives more often -- and I think that's kind of missing the point -- the 7/10 (or 6/9) angle isn't a big deal to me. Like I said, I don't care if we run or pass on the first play, 1st and 10, unless we're always doing one or the other, with poor results. I care about overall balance, rhythm in play calling, dictating to the defense, emphasizing your strengths, etc. I'm not highly concerned with the specific play call on the first play of each possession. 

I used the beginning of series as just a high level in an attempt highlight game neutral plays. The 6 of 9 did bother me a bit given things that were occurring throughout the game. I was a lot more bothered by the overall lack of balance and icing JT, and the overall running game in general. 

[EastStreet]

11 minutes ago, JediXMan said:

My fantasy opponent bought into the Mike White hype already lol. 

Against our zone, not really a bad pick.

They have a decent OL, so not sure we'll harass him much.

[JediXMan]

34 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Against our zone, not really a bad pick.

They have a decent OL, so not sure we'll harass him much.

 

I have Pittman so hopefully they cancel each other out lol.

[EastStreet]

1 minute ago, JediXMan said:

 

I have Pittman so hopefully they cancel each other out lol.

 

Well, I think White will definitely throw it a lot. Not sure they'll have a choice... 

 

Pittman should be our #1 target tonight, but I could also see Reich going ultra conservative after last game. I could also see him playing back yard ball too... And if White is successful, could be close and we might need to pass regardless...  lol.. Nothing would surprise me. Logic just doesn't work anymore... 

[Superman]

58 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Apologies, but "just saying "24% run ratio." implied laziness to me. 

The lack of run on those two downs was horrendous IMO, and of course we know Frank owned up to it. 

It seemed to me that you were suggesting you were giving him a pass on game neutral situations, regardless of context when you said you weren't going to nitpick game neutral situations. I think it's very fair to critique those given context.  

I used the beginning of series as just a high level in an attempt highlight game neutral plays. The 6 of 9 did bother me a bit given things that were occurring throughout the game. I was a lot more bothered by the overall lack of balance and icing JT, and the overall running game in general. 

 

I do think 24% has become a trope, and is starting to take on a life of its own. However, my point was we should acknowledge the context, specific to this game.

 

I think, without the end half and end game drives, the run/pass ratio probably would have been more like 35-40%, and I'd still have the same general issues with how the game was managed, not just on the basis of the percentage. But I think certain situations skewed it even further, making it a major outlier.

 

I'm not giving him a pass for not calling good plays in neutral situations. Just saying I'm not going to hold him to a specific ideal ratio of run/pass in neutral situations. Reich goes away from the run at times, other times he forces it. I have problems with his play calling and, it seems, his general philosophy for running the offense. 

 

Side point: There was a pass favorable situation on the first drive, 3rd and 7, and we ran, 12 yards, ball at the 2. I loved it. I thought that meant they were going to bully the Titans and try to dominate the clock all game. I thought it was a statement about the team's identity. Things didn't go that way from that point forward. You'll run the ball on 3rd and 7 in the red zone, but not 3rd and 3 (or 4th and 3) from the 40? Just saying, I don't mind bucking trends, forcing your way, whatever. I don't care if we run every down, pass every down, whatever, if we're scoring points and not turning the ball over. 

[EastStreet]

22 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I do think 24% has become a trope, and is starting to take on a life of its own. However, my point was we should acknowledge the context, specific to this game.

 

I think, without the end half and end game drives, the run/pass ratio probably would have been more like 35-40%, and I'd still have the same general issues with how the game was managed, not just on the basis of the percentage. But I think certain situations skewed it even further, making it a major outlier.

 

I'm not giving him a pass for not calling good plays in neutral situations. Just saying I'm not going to hold him to a specific ideal ratio of run/pass in neutral situations. Reich goes away from the run at times, other times he forces it. I have problems with his play calling and, it seems, his general philosophy for running the offense. 

 

Side point: There was a pass favorable situation on the first drive, 3rd and 7, and we ran, 12 yards, ball at the 2. I loved it. I thought that meant they were going to bully the Titans and try to dominate the clock all game. I thought it was a statement about the team's identity. Things didn't go that way from that point forward. You'll run the ball on 3rd and 7 in the red zone, but not 3rd and 3 (or 4th and 3) from the 40? Just saying, I don't mind bucking trends, forcing your way, whatever. I don't care if we run every down, pass every down, whatever, if we're scoring points and not turning the ball over. 

Well, pretty sure I'm the one that first used the 24%... It's just a very simple calc, and is an extreme. If it's become a trope, that's fine. Becoming a trope doesn't diminish the significance or truth. 

 

End of half drive had plenty of time left. 4+ minutes and timeouts. I'll give you end of game drive. Full play book is available with 4+ and timeouts.

 

I'd also point out something, that I think you've mentioned as well.... Reich has been pretty horrible at times getting the play call in. Way to long, and looks completely unorganized at times. Not sure if that happened in the end of half drive, but I do recall noticing it several times and IIRC, happened in some critical situations/drives.

 

On the whole, I should have just pub'd a breakdown per drive. I almost did earlier this week, but felt there was enough agreement on bad play calling it wasn't needed. Was tempted to reply to doug, but I took the time to respond to him yesterday with point by point data, and got "thanks for taking the time, but I'm not going to read" reply lol... I just got jacked up on coffee, but not going to do it with the game coming up shortly. Watching the TNKO pregame, and streaming The Fan right now... Maybe later lol. 

[Myles]

17 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Well, pretty sure I'm the one that first used the 24%... It's just a very simple calc, and is an extreme. If it's become a trope, that's fine. Becoming a trope doesn't diminish the significance or truth. 

 

End of half drive had plenty of time left. 4+ minutes and timeouts. I'll give you end of game drive. Full play book is available with 4+ and timeouts.

 

I'd also point out something, that I think you've mentioned as well.... Reich has been pretty horrible at times getting the play call in. Way to long, and looks completely unorganized at times. Not sure if that happened in the end of half drive, but I do recall noticing it several times and IIRC, happened in some critical situations/drives.

 

On the whole, I should have just pub'd a breakdown per drive. I almost did earlier this week, but felt there was enough agreement on bad play calling it wasn't needed. Was tempted to reply to doug, but I took the time to respond to him yesterday with point by point data, and got "thanks for taking the time, but I'm not going to read" reply lol... I just got jacked up on coffee, but not going to do it with the game coming up shortly. Watching the TNKO pregame, and streaming The Fan right now... Maybe later lol. 

I totally agree.  Reich showed that he was not in control of the game and that is bad when you are the head coach.   He needs to hand off the play calling so he can pay attention to the game action.